Citizens Given Video Cameras To Monitor Police 434
atommota writes "After years of complaints of police misconduct, the ACLU is giving free video cameras to some residents of high-crime neighborhoods in St. Louis, MO to help them monitor officers. The ACLU of Eastern Missouri launched the project Wednesday after television crews last year broadcast video of officers punching and kicking a suspect who led police on a car chase. 'The idea here is to level the playing field, so it's not just your word against the police's word,' said Brenda Jones, executive director of the ACLU chapter. The ACLU has worked closely with the police to make sure they are aware of this program. This is in stark contrast to the recent Pennsylvania arrest for felony wiretapping of a guy who was videotaping a police stop."
What do you do it. . . (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Cops have the authority to disperse a 'crowd' so that they can maintain order. Failure to disperse = failure to obey a lawful order = arrest/taser/mace
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Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:5, Funny)
Lawyer: Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, as you can see plainly here, some Pac-Man looking individual who we assume is the victim is being bumped into repeatedly by a dark blue blob....
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Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:4, Informative)
Umm, no. My camcorder is almost 5 years old. It has 6x optical zoom and 200x digital zoom. If you had actually taken the effort to check at bestbuy.com, you'd have seen camcorders with at least 35x optical and 1000x digital zoom.
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1. The officers were very rude and were completely intolerant of the individual's lack of English skills. I realize I live in a state where people find KQRS' resident racist Tom Bernard "entertaining", but the cops should at least be a little more understanding.
2. They were obviously mocking the individuals that they
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According to Hillary on one of the debates the other night...she said we did. She said she was for the current designation of the 'national language' as being English. But, she voted against making it the "official" language...saying she was afraid that would do away with multi-lingual ballots, and govt. forms.
Frankly, I don't see the problem with that either...
I don't mind multi-lingual at 'border crossings'.
Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:4, Funny)
Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:5, Funny)
English is the language of the land. [xkcd.com]
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It's certainly advantageous, and I'd encourage them to learn it, but it's ultimately their choice. And I can't realistically expect them to learn it in a day(how long had that person been living in the US anyway? If I move to South Korea to hang out with the old people, I'll try to learn Korean. I'll probably eventually become pretty good at it. But for quite a few ye
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I love the way that was written. I am sure you didn't do it intentionally but it's spoken like many Americans I know and
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Though I wonder if you consider it equally ignorant to move to a country and not even attempt to learn the language?
From Wikipedia's entry of "Languages of the United States" [wikipedia.org]:
Although the United States currently has no official language, English has long been the de facto national language, which is spoken by about 82% of the population as a native language. (emphasis mine)
From Wikipedia's entry of "Languages of France" [wikipedia.org]:
There are a number of languages of France
Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:5, Funny)
Hopefully not in that order.
Re:What do you do it. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
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While I'm sure most law enforcement officers are good people, there are too many jack-booted thugs among the ranks, who view the Bill of Rights as a nuisance and a hindrance and/or are control freaks on a trip.
I find it extremely distasteful that the "felony wiretap" case was in my home state o
The ACLU and the 2nd amendment (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, IIRC, the ACLU has come out and said that the since NRA defends the 2nd Amendment so conscientiously, they defer such cases to them. That's not at all the same thing as refusing to acknowledge it.
I agree with that sentiment 100% (both parts of it).
What's interesting is that this case seems to be pitting two things the ACLU fights for against each other. Due process vs. privacy (of the cops). I think they're making the right call here, but I still find that conflict interesting. (Just to play devil's advocate: how would you like it if someone taped most of your workday?)
Re:The ACLU and the 2nd amendment (Score:5, Informative)
Here's what the ACLU says about it. [aclu.org]
I don't see what's "selective" about that. While any particular person (including me) may disagree with the philosophy behind it, this is a very well reasoned stance... there is ambiguity in what the constitution says and means on this issue, the ACLU protects constitutional rights when such rights are clear.
I'm pro-gun and pro-ACLU, just to name my own bias.
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Just to play devil's advocate: how would you like it if someone taped most of your workday?
I've heard that most cops actually liked the idea of video cameras in their cars because it proved that they were good cops in most cases. If I had a job that involved me being accountable for something as serious as protecting and serving citizens, then I wouldn't mind being videotaped. In most cases I'm sure this will show most cops in good light, but we'll never see those videos on the evening news.
9/10 vs 1/10...which is the bigger number? (Score:3, Insightful)
The ACLU doesn't oppose gun rights, just as the NRA doesn't oppose the other 9 Amendments, but if
In fact, you are screwed (Score:5, Interesting)
The cameras are needed.
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When I hear ppl sa
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Call the Black Panthers.
Tomorrows headlines (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tomorrows headlines (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tomorrows headlines (Score:5, Funny)
I do believe... (Score:4, Interesting)
...that while the ACLU is absolutely right in this context, the practical upshot of this is that many more folks in that community will become victims of Police "misconduct" due to their conspicuous wielding of cameras. And while fighting the good fight and filming anyway is great in the best of all possible worlds, that world isn't this one, and police officers know how to hurt you in real ways, not to mention the system of, ahem, Justice they represent is heavily stacked against someone who has a legit beef re: a police officer.
Besides, on a purely practical note, after the police finish beating the crap out of you and your friend(s), how hard is it for them to confiscate and destroy a recording device?
Re:I do believe... (Score:4, Interesting)
By forcing the issue now, hopefully the issue can be brought to light and fixed, and the increase in police issues could hopefully be a temporary condition. By not doing it, things just stew longer and get worse. Hopefully, the sooner it is addressed, the shorter and milder the "dangerous increase in police issues" period could be.
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By forcing the issue now, hopefully the issue can be brought to light and fixed, and the increase in police issues could hopefully be a temporary condition. By not doing it, things just stew longer and get worse. Hopefully, the sooner it is addressed, the shorter and milder the "dangerous increase in police issues" period could be.
I couldn't agree more. My only thing is, I've been at protests that have ended up in arrests (and been arrested at same) and those were tame in comparison to the sorts of inc
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Traditionally, this is through a violent revolution or coup or similar. Civil War is about the worst possible solution, though, and if we can avoid it with some smaller conflicts now, that would be better for everybody.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will work - too many people are apologists for the police and the powers-that-be, too many people are profiting from the current situation, an
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B) Where, exactly, am I advocating shooting cops? I specifically said that filming them as a good alternative solution to try for now.
C) Yes, there is a mini-war going on in the streets. You could say I'm suggesting that a diplomatic solution could be found, and at least tried, before just jumping on the Bush-style "just bomb them back to the stone age" method.
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Because who knows who out there that they didn't see is also recording?
I just wonder how many of these tapes that make into court will show the incident from beginning to end, or only the part that shows what the person who recorded it wants you to see... just like the evening news. Like with a lot of stores CCTV systems, when it co
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That sounds like a win to me.
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That's easy. But that assumes that the recording device (camcorder, cellphone, whatever), isn't also transmitting the data elsewhere. A wi-fi enabled camera-phone would pretty much nullify that option.
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I think you have a valid concern, but one of the few things more powerful in this world than the police/justice system is free communications. Once a few videos like this start appearing on the Internet, showing people who look like police officers beating people up, or better yet showing identifiable officers, then the higher authorities will have to take action, and it will have to be quick, obvious and decisive. Being seen to defend or condone this sort of behaviour is enough to get powerful people unele
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And that is the problem.
The solution isn't to just "give up" on areas like that, it's to fix the police behavior (and political mess that's related).
Do away with the things people hate the cops for, like the War On (some) Drugs, idiotically stupid traffic enforcement, enforcement of morality, etc, and people will like the cops again. Do away with the abuses of power they have by quickly and publicly punishing those cops that commit the abuses, and people wi
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That's not police misconduct. It's legislative misconduct.
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Well, I was referring to only some traffic issues. There's a difference between people engaging in actually dangerous behavior, and the "revenue generation" speed traps that undermine the respect people have of the police/etc.
As for morality crimes... do you want hookers turning tricks in your front yard? I suspect not.
No, but that's a problem because of the illegality of prostitution. Legalize it, and you can zone it into sane business/industrial districts like a
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This could create an environment where corrupt officials are afraid of citizens. That's awesome.
Totally agree. I was just musing about 'in the meantime' when they aren't and this sort of initiative causes flash events that in the short-term may get innocent people's asses kicked/thrown in jail.
Level Playing Field (Score:3, Insightful)
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And the inevitable... (Score:2)
ACLU (Score:2, Insightful)
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Keep your trashy right-wing "arguments" out of this discussion.
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The same is true with this "supply cameras to po
Number 2 (Score:2)
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Funny thing is now I can be accused of being a left wing nut as well who should stop listening to the mainstream media
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Not even a Republican, sorry.
The ACLU is an organization so caught up in an ideology that they have gone off the deep end and have caused more issues than they have solved. I do agree with the ACLU's stances many times. Others they are way off. When you support the viewing and distributing of child porn, there is no way I can support the group.
So, please, clarify for all of Slashdot: do you p
Good luck with that (Score:2)
Cops HATE being videotaped. [pennlive.com]
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"to help them monitor officers" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"to help them monitor officers" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"to help them monitor officers" (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, who are the ACLU giving these cameras to? Law-abiding citizens who live in these areas and are worried that the local scroats might have their civil liberties abused whilst they were committing vandalism, burglary and violent crimes against the person?
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More crime = need more officers to combat this threat!
Less crime = need more officers to keep it this way!
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Make friends, not enemies. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Make friends, not enemies. (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope they also keep the cameras running to catch any criminals. They're the ones who terrorize neighborhoods and then scare possible witnesses into keeping silent.
Re:Make friends, not enemies. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't agree. I am a nurse. I have seen other nurses out there that steal narcotics, make dangerous medical decisions, etc. Those nurses suck, and make the rest of us look bad. I don't think I should be commended for doing my job right just because there are those out there that do it badly. I am not a cop, and couldn't speak for them, but if someone tried to commend me for doing the right thing, I would be a bit disgusted. That's like saying, "Thanks for giving your patients those pain meds, instead of stealing them." or the cop equivalent, "Thanks for making that arrest without beating that guy to death." People should not be commended for doing what they are required to do by the job, and what should be a socially accepted standard of moral ethics.
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Almost. More like:
"Thanks for making that arrest without beating that guy to death as he repeatedly tried to stab you and kill and bite you and spit on you and kick you while you made the arrest."
There's doing your job, and then there's doing your job under horribly abusive conditions.
Cheers.
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Cheers.
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Re:Make friends, not enemies. (Score:5, Insightful)
I will, and have, thanked officers personally for doing good work, because I appreciate it. But it's pretty ridiculous to even insinuate that an organization with a serious focus should waste its time and resources thanking people for doing their jobs.
That would be the job of the police department itself, to recognize its own employees that do exemplary work, and reward them, not the ACLU's job, right? The ACLU's job is to make sure they do not abuse the additional power (and thus, additional responsibility) that has been accorded to them by the people they have power over.
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"ok, go home take all your tapes all your albums and burn them."
--Bill Hicks
The fact is that they will be whatever types of influence on society they'll be. Exactly like everyone else.
Would you care to refute "nobody gets hurt" with an actual argument instead of just a denial? Now be very careful. Almost everyone who tries actually makes an argument for the harm of drug laws rather than the harm of drugs.
It's
This is just asking for abuse (Score:3, Insightful)
With other folks taking the suspect's picture it is going to become common for these photos to make their way onto the web and into TV news. So you now have even worse situations with "Look who got arrested today!!!" even when no arrest was made.
Think about it - you are stopped by the police for going through a yellow light. No ticket issued, just a warning. Next day you find your very recognizable picture on some web page and half your co-workers think it is very funny. Of course the caption on the picture makes it seem like you are being hauled off to jail. Funny? Not when you have a public-facing job and people now believe you are "some kind of criminal." Even if all you do is work in a shoe store you are going to get canned if you spend more time explaining the picture than selling shoes.
If you are a public figure how much do you think a picture of you being questioned by the police would be worth? To tabloid newspapers? To your opposing candidates in an election? Think these pictures won't be sold because "oh these are ACLU cameras" - think again.
The only way this makes sense is with an underlying assumption that all police officers are violent thugs that need to be monitored constantly. If that is even remotely the case there are other ways of dealing with that problem than getting photographs and video of people being stopped or questioned by the police.
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Worse than that...if you are seen talking to the police for any reason.
You are a witness at a traffic accident. One of your helpful neighbors is filming the scene, with you face to face with the cop. The video shows up the next day. Depending on how it was shot and edited, it could look quite bad.
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Excellent... if only.. (Score:2)
The Pennsylvania case is over (Score:5, Informative)
From the article:
The fact that this made the national news doesn't surprise me. This is Pennsylvania where our new state motto is:
Doing our best to become the next New Jersey.
Anybody Else (Score:3, Interesting)
This might even be an attempt to antagonize and create incidents with the police over the whole video taping issue, rather than a valid method of checks and balances. It wouldn't be the first time the ACLU has done such things.
Nor was the incident cited in TFA the first time a citizen has gotten in trouble for video taping police against their wishes. Just a couple of years ago a man, in his home, on his property, using installed surveillance cameras covering his property, got arrested when he taped officers coming to his door. That's simply wrong!
Of course, if you can manage to get away with the actual taping at the time, anyone with a video camera and YouTube can make their case without the ACLU at all.
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Seriously, we all know that police brutality goes on. What we don't know is how much. Well, this is a way to find out. If these images end up on YouTube, great. They may be ugly, but this isn't something you sweep under the rug. Let's get it out there and get it stopped. If this does that, then it's a good thing.
Re:Anybody Else (Score:4, Interesting)
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Agreed. Similarly, I was thinking about helping out Habitat for Humanity, but they don't work for gun rights, so I decided not to.
The ACLU fights for some rights. Maybe they pick and choose for poor reasons, but they aren't fighting against gun rights, so their failure to fight for them is no more relevant than the NRA's failure to fight malaria.
You might be a terrorist if: (Score:2, Interesting)
You are a defender of the U.S. Constitution.
You are a lone individual.
http://www.welfarestate.com/pamphlet/ [welfarestate.com]
In other words, this program to record the police seems like a good way to get on the FBI's watchlist.
Speaking as a former STL dispatcher... (Score:2, Interesting)
America's Funniest Home Videos? (Score:2, Insightful)
I can see it now . . . a brand new show in the time slot right after Cops. "America's Dirtiest Police Videos"
In my opinion, this has as much of a chance of protecting citizen rights as it does to hinder legit police activities and responses to emergencies. Cops start paying more attention to the cameras and neglect the crime/crimals they were called to investigate and put themselves and others at risk.
I'm all for accountability, but does the ACLU also provide similar equipment to folks so they can mon
Even cameras might not be enough (Score:2, Interesting)
The officer's defense has been that he thought Carrion was reaching for a wea
WITNESS the Watchers (Score:2)
Peter Gabriel setup something similar a while ago. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's tailored more to finding local stories that impact you and report on them as an amateur, but has also been lent in the same way the ACLU is working now.
I am a big fan of the police, but dirty cops make me sick to my stomach. If they have nothing to hide, they shouldn't worry about the cameras.
In a related story... (Score:4, Funny)
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Also, similar to how concealed-carry weapons lower crime even for those who are not carrying, the knowledge that there's a lot of people out there ready to catch the police abusing their power can act like a great deterring factor, which is an even better win. Stopping the abuse before it starts is a much better solution
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That's all well and good. But do you deserve a beating if you didn't do anything wrong [workers.org]? (I'd post a less inflammatory link, but the mainstream press articles are behind a pay wall - however the article does give the basic facts, and I'll note that one of the officers involved in the incident later resigned [masslive.com] over allegations of drug use).
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The police are supposed to be there to arrest those who break the law. Once a chase is over, the person who was fleeing is not putting anyone else in danger. And since there are laws agains
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I realise you're being sarcastic, but this is exactly how things work [bbc.co.uk] in the UK. Of course he must have had something to hide, otherwise he wouldn't have run away would he?
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And before anyone goes spouting a bunch of anti-Fox, right-wing-conspiracy crap, I'd like to let it be known that KTVI (Fox, channel 2, St. Louis) is about as "liberal" as local TV can become without being dismissed as leftist-whackjobs. I'm not sure how they stay a Fox affiliate.
Re:Having had the crap beat out of me by cops... (Score:5, Interesting)
Stopping police brutality is a good thing, but we have to be sure it is REAL brutality. Now, I do not know your situation, but I have heard so many stories similar to yours. Many backed up by video evidence. When digging further into the stories, I often find either the police did nothing wrong, or they were antagonized to the point where even a saint would have problems.
I do belive the easiest way to stop police brutality is to be polite and cooperative. I have long hair and have a very suspicious demeanor, but when I get pulled over, I get treated with nothing but respect. I attribute this to me being polite and cooperate. Either that or I just happened to run into the only nice cops in my area.
Re:Having had the crap beat out of me by cops... (Score:5, Interesting)
Had I even SEEN the cops, I would have been polite and cooperative. As it was, all I got to be was a punching bag. Maybe somebody else antagonized them...I dont know. I do know they flat out lied about what happened, and I went to jail for it. If there would have been video of the event, you can bet they would have beat up the videographer too.
I have friends that are cops, so don't think I'm down on the profession, but it does draw psychos...probably 30-40% of cops are like the ones that beat me up. Probably 30-40% of the judges are crooked or brain dead. I suppose it has always been so...but up until that happened I had thought America was special.
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