For CS Majors, How Important Is the "Where?" 991
An anonymous reader writes "I'm a high school senior who is trying to pick a college to attend. I've been accepted by two comparably selective schools. One is a highly regarded tech school, and the other is a highly regarded liberal arts institution. I prefer the liberal arts college, but the computer science program is small, graduating about a dozen students a year. The course load is heavily theory based; programming languages are taught in later years.
How much would the tech school vs. non tech school matter? Are CS majors from non-tech school considered inferior? What would an HR department think? What would you think if you were hiring?"
OH NOES! (Score:5, Funny)
Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
In the L.A. school, you'll have to educate yourself. The tech school will let you bounce ideas off of other students as well as the more numerous professors.
This from a Liberal Arts major
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
Give very, very serious thought to going to the liberal arts school. In my case, the school has forced enough computer science, math, bio, engineering, physics, etc. down my throat that I've actually soured somewhat on the idea of having anything to do with computer science after graduation. If it's a top
I know it sounds weird, but if you do CS 24/7 (perhaps literally 20/7 for long stretches) there's going to be a time when you long for a course that will teach you about poetry, or history, or something completely unrelated to what you spend the rest of your time on. And there will be a good chance you're not going to be able to fit such a course in your schedule.
Also, keep in mind that many, many of the people at very good engineering schools are extremely socially maladapted. Sometimes staggeringly so. So you have to reconcile yourself with that, too.
Some people absolutely thrive at those sorts of colleges. But most, from what I've seen, just leave technically more proficient (though not much more so than if they went to a liberal arts school) and quite a bit more hollow.
Then again, if you do go to a technical school, I can tell you from quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that you're going to get preferential treatment in the hiring process with a huge name engineering school. I've personally had two interviewers confide in me post-selection that I was picked over (to me) obviously more qualified candidates because they didn't believe that someone from [X. State] could be better qualified than a person from [ABC] and that they had just assumed that I flubbed the interviews. So if you're truly unsure of your ability to make a name for yourself at a liberal arts college, you could at least leverage the branding power that the engineering school has.
If you do wind up at the engineering school, see if you can get attached to a research project as soon as possible. At most of the interesting places to work, saying "I have [x] papers published in [journal A], [journal B], and [journal C]" has way more sway -- even if the topics aren't related to the job -- than saying "I can do pointer arithmetic really fast in my head." If you decide to go to grad school, publications in your name make them start salivating when they see your application packet, because doing original research and writing about it is generally what grad school is about.
Christ, that was supposed to be a "I think liberal arts colleges are good" and turned into a novella. College really is what you a make of it, and you can do very well for yourself either place. Just make sure you find friends who are smarter than you and start hanging out with them. And then make sure you make friends who aren't technical majors at all, and hang out with them at least as often. To get perspective.
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
This post raises a crucial point:
There's more to life than technology.
I'm Canadian, so it's possible that there are cultural differences here, but a friend of mine does a lot of hiring, and he's told me that part of what he looks for in a candidate is what knowledge, experience, and interests they have outside of computers. For example, if he were considering hiring me, and didn't know me, he would be impressed to learn that I have a pilot's license, as it shows two things: I'm a well-rounded individual with interests beyond just computers (ie. not obsessive and unbalanced); and I'm capable of learning and understanding concepts beyond just those involving bits.
So, don't be a one-trick pony. For the sake of your resume, and for the sake of your own sanity, get an education that covers more than just technology.
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Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
So I vote for "liberal arts" where you can at least meet some cute girls (and probably your future wife).
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:4, Insightful)
Why knock yourself out? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why knock yourself out? (Score:5, Insightful)
No it's not. Pick 10 random EWDs [utexas.edu] and see how many of them don't still apply today. If you're actually being taught computer science, the info you're learning should be useful for a very long time.
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Do you want to be defined by your job? Is a job going to be the most important part of your life?If your life is going to be centered on getting and keeping really good jobs, then the obvious choice is a tech school.
Do you want a good job to pay the bills while you do other things, pursue other hobbies, travel, make music, paint, etc? Then you should be headed for a liberal arts school.
My bias is towards trying to get t
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This sort of woolly analysis is what drives me nuts about interviewing. You focus on IT, learn it, soak it up, live it, love it, and become above average and excellent at many different areas in IT, which is just what the job descriptions all say is wanted (well, we know what they say and what they really want don't usually match), and then you get this kind of subjective evaluation where the very things they said they wanted are now a mark against you!
The people doing the hiring don't really have good r
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Since the only reason you're working in the first place is to make money, you should think outside the "go to college, get a good job" box. Find something and start your own business. I think he/sh
That just doesn't make sense... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't spend your life working for someone else. It's a horrible experience now, and it's only going to get worse as corporations expand their control. Start your own company and work it from a young age and you'll be much better off by the time you're 30.
Since this is slashdot, I feel justified in psychoanalyzing you just from this one post.
IT != CS / Computer Engineering (Score:5, Insightful)
All that said, I'd still also say that the quality of either job, IT or CS, depends on the company. I believe the IT and Web people where I work are much happier than typical IT and Web people elsewhere.
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
What you are describing is burnout. You should be glad that this is happening now, and not later when in the workplace.
There is no harm in discovering you no longer wish to pursue a career in a particular industry. It is better you discover this sooner rather than later.
Competitive programs in competitive schools are going to be, well, competitive. If you're afraid of competition, pick an easy program at an easy school ("Liberal Arts"). Having technical knowledge drilled into your head against your will isn't a bad thing either -- it is going to be much more difficult and unpleasant if you try and do it later in life.
A technical degree from a technical institution is going to be worth more than a technical degree from a liberal arts college. You are going to be taught by and work with some brilliant minds. Late night 5am coding sessions are part of the deal -- and you are going to build great camaraderie with your peers in the process. This is all part of the experience.
Perhaps I'm showing my age here, but I don't buy into the notion that one should use time at college to "explore" and "discover oneself". One should be doing exactly this before, during, and much after college. Similarly, your education does not stop once you leave university. You will be able to take all those extra arts classes you wanted to later in life too. It will be much more difficult to get a specific technical education later.
There are perennial jokes about liberal arts degrees and they exist for a reason. As an employer, I would prefer a student that was able to thrive in a difficult and competitive environment over one that was mostly self taught if it better suited the position. Having said that, I cannot discourage you enough from choosing a school for CV purposes. Good networking, confidence, and social skills are going to get you much further in the workplace than your choice of university.
A CS degree doesn't necessitate that you work in a CS field. It will create a solid foundation for you to further your education or begin your career.
Late night coding sessions are all part of the experience. Don't choose the path of least resistance. Select the liberal arts college if there are other things about it that really appeal to you, but don't be afraid of the competition.
I don't attach any weight to the previous poster's comments about psychological issues. If these problems exist, they will be exposed in a competitive workplace later on. A competitive college will do far more good for you than it will harm.
You will never again in your lifetime be in such close proximity to so many people your own age. The same is true of everyone else, and they will be looking to maximise use of their time and their own experience. Any experience is a good experience -- at either university -- and the only thing you should avoid is wasting your time. Lab time at 5am is not time wasted, nor is time looking at the sky with hippies -- but playstation in your room is. You will get as much out of college as you want to.
Best of luck to you!
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:4, Insightful)
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Lab time at 5am is not time wasted, nor is time looking at the sky with hippies -- but playstation in your room is.
Why is playing video games a waste of time but looking at the sky with hippies isn't? I'm assuming you mean play video games by yourself because playing Halo2 with my roommates was one of the most enjoyable experiences I remember. Regardless, I would even argue playing video game by yourself isn't a waste your time. I am into video game development, and a lot of the ideas I get when I create video games come from all the games I've played in the past.
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First, there are some folks who will stay up to 5 AM (or pull an "all-nighter") to finish problem sets, but you do not have to be one of them. For the vast majority of cases, this is not necessary unless you procrastinate too much in starting assig
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1) Resumes are looked at by a scoring program in most large corporations before a human ever sees them. Whatever you put in a resume has to make it past these.
2) HR cares in so much as it is a real college and you actually got the degree you said you earned.
Now here is the rub
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The state university had a ridiculous number of required classes outside his major. They prop up a lot of the d
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Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd say the 'where' is very important - but not for the usual reasons. Its possible to be just as successful either way -- but there's a reason you hear of more success stories from the big-name schools.
What it comes down to is standards. Its very difficult to maintain high standards in isolation. In a recognized/sought-after school you will usually face much more competition, more motivated and focused classmates. They are your competition for good grades (especially when graded on a curve) and at job fairs on campus. The result is that you get pushed harder (and you in turn are one of the people pushing your classmates to excell as well). Bottom line: if you want an A in Compilers in the big tech school you'll have to really know your shit inside out. If you want to get an A in the Liberal Arts school its a lot easier. At the end of it, you'll have much more airtight concepts if you've gone through the grind at the big school.
A long-term perk of the big school is that you'll make close friends from among this pool of competitors -- they help you keep your standards high even after school (as will your colleagues at work, etc. etc.)
Of course, all this advice is based on certain assumptions about your goals and career ambitions, and might not apply if the assumptions are invalid.
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Insightful)
You're assuming that people at a liberal arts school don't know more than he does. It could be argued that by going to a LA school he is more likely will run into people who know things that he's not even aware he doesn't know.
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If you want to spend your whole career competing with folks in India, China, and other low-wage emerging tech economies, get a degree that's focused entirely on CS. Those skills are trivially easy to outs
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Secondly, pedigree matters. No matter what people say, it is very important, especially down the line if you wish to go to business school, or pursue higher education.
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Grandparent is right in that you need to teach yourself lots of stuff at the liberal arts school
People Skills Matter (Score:3, Insightful)
Except people skills. People skills are more important than ever in an outsource-happy world. If you are so annoying that people only want to contact you via email, you might as well be in Bangalore.
There are a handful of techies who are so smart in a given area that they are indisp
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If you manage to get to the interview stage, it really doesn't matter whether you went to a technical school or a liberal arts school. You'll have to stand on your own personal merits, not your school's.
But in order to get to the interview stage, you have to make your resume stand out. And I'm a lot more likely to take notice of someone with a resume that says they went to MIT or Stanford or RIT (because I'm biased - it's where I went). Any time you have a job posted on Dice/Monster/CareerBuilder you
Re:OH NOES! (Score:4, Funny)
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The problem is that you'll get much more respect from those below you if you actually have a technical background. Leaders with business degrees and nothing else are typically scorned upon by those who've invested time in significantly difficult fields. Former president of Goldman Sachs and current
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where people have labeled you funny, you make a good point. But the point you make is why I'd encourage him to go. Look, unless you're going to MIT, I'd say stay away from tech schools all together and find a well balanced school that offers a decent program in computer science, CIS, telecom, whatever. I made the mistake of going to a tech school where they give you chump work for academics, arts, etc
Re:OH NOES! (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a strong possibility, even a probability that you will not be programming for your entire life and you will need a skill set that serves you far beyond the technical focus of your major. As someone with some (limited) experience interviewing job candidates, IMO the ability to be thoughtful and articulate will serve better than narrow technical skill.
You have the rest of your life to gain technical skills, which in CS are constantly changing. Don't train yourself to be a specific cog in a machine, instead try to gain the ability to handle a wider variety of tasks.
Re:No it isn't! (Score:5, Interesting)
There are significant differences between the US and Europe, if you haven't noticed...Until recently, the United States appreciated well rounded individuals with wide expertise and the ability to do multiple kinds of jobs over the European preference for specialists. While this preference has changed in recent years, American universities still teach to those old preferences. So, most American universities would say the point of attending is getting a "well rounded" education. Besides, seeking to limit yourself so narrowly means you are more heavily affected when a downturn occurs in your field of specialization.
Whilst being articulate helps, you've clearly never hired a software engineer. Some narrow technical skill is EXACTLY what will get you the big money in software, and what will get you hired over and over.
Not everyone who goes into computer science wants to be a programmer.
Re:No it isn't! (Score:4, Insightful)
The liberal arts school has given me a very well rounded resume, and there are several recruiters that have said they really perked up when they saw I was a philosophy minor. Yes, if you want to 'get the big money in software engineering' a tech-only school might be the one for you. Enjoy sitting in a cubicle and living out the Office Space life. I've gotten a very good education in CS areas like theory of computation, language theory, reinforcement learning for artificial intelligence, genetic algorithms, and Markov chains and I've taken classes that taught the languages Python, Perl, C, C++, Java, and assembly. Plus, I can have an intelligent conversation about political theory and the merits of the arts and sciences as they relate to society. The best part? I actually enjoyed my education.
A well rounded education allows a person to discover exactly what it is about a particular subject that they enjoy doing, not just how to apply a method to a problem. There's nothing wrong with immersing yourself in a specific subject; that's why I'm going to graduate school.
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Oh right, you yanks are just late developers, high school being roughly the equivalent of our kindergartens. I always forget that.
There's a grain of truth to it. The US K-12 is pretty slack. Not as bad as some say, but less demanding than primary and secondary education in Japan, Korea, England, France, Germany etc.
But the university system in the US is more difficult and demanding than its counterparts elsewhere. I'm often surprised by how little English or Japanese undergraduates have to work: it's pretty much a non-stop party in Japan, and England isn't much better. There are statistics floating around that quantify the different
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The flipside of that is, I went to more of a respected engineering-ish school and I spent more time in physics/chemistry/engineering classes than in my CS classes. For the kind of work I do, honestly, more of the liberal arts would have been more useful. Being able to write and express your ideas clearly is of immense importance to anyone with a CS degree who wants a job that can't/won'
Re:OH NOES! (Score:4, Informative)
We don't do a single thing that's not related to the course. My CS degree was three years of CS theory and practice along with software engineering. Perfect.
Also you're legally allowed a beer here.
depends... (Score:5, Funny)
that is the dilemma you are facing. it's a double-edged sword.
Re:depends... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:depends... (Score:5, Interesting)
I graduated with a CS degree from a Liberal Arts college. Perhaps at a tech school you are surrounded by people who know about the subjects you wish to learn about. The key to a Liberal Arts college is surrounding yourself with a variety of people. You're going to learn a lot more partying with a history or philosophy major than you are partying with another programmer.
Also, you are forced to take classes you wouldn't have wanted to, and *gasp* you'll actually learn about new things! Perhaps when you're 40, you'll decide that you don't want to be a programmer anymore. Instead, you want to become a writer, or open your own restaurant. You're going to have a wider variety of knowledge and contacts in a wider variety of fields if you went to a Liberal Arts college.
Admittedly, I've not tried for a job at Google or Sun. However, I've had no trouble finding good work, and interviewers are usually impressed by the college I graduated from.
Re:depends... (Score:5, Funny)
Either way the smell is going to be terrible.
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Have Fun (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Have Fun (Score:4, Insightful)
> music works, its easier to pick up a musical instrument
Math is kinda like music. Programming is a lot like designing and building musical instruments. Theory is necessary to do it well, but theory alone will give you a violin which implodes when you tighten the strings.
c.
Emphasis on Fun (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong - half of college is about working your ass off, sleeping in the lab and submitting term papers 38 seconds before the deadline after having worked on them for three days straight (what smells like coffee and bacon?).
But the other half of it is meeting people and becoming an adult (if one is so fortunate as to be attending college immediately after high school in the conventional manner). If you have time, join any and every student organization that interests you - even if it doesn't fit your major. Talk to people. Make weekly attempts to eat the entire two pound burrito (goals are important). Wear sunscreen. Et cetera.
When you look back on college and don't chuckle out loud, then you didn't do it properly. You only get one chance.
Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Not true. (Score:5, Funny)
The answer to this and most other decisions. (Score:5, Insightful)
However, in my country, right now, there's no chance of not finding a nice job with any kind of CS higher education.
Also, take into account the importance of your choice of college will fade after some years. At 45, your rank (?) won't really depend on your college but on your skill and abilities.
It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you need to ask yourself if you want to go to a school where they force you into requirements like taking one anthropology course or two upper division reading courses. You're other choice (the tech school) is having all your courses picked for you but never accidentally stumbling onto something you love or have never experienced.
Me, I opted for the liberal arts college and will never regret it. Sure, my coworkers who went to a tech school get to brag about how intensive their CS coursework was but I've learned what they know (if not more) a couple years into my job.
Do what you want to do, what you think will be fun and exciting. The place ain't gonna matter, what you put into it will and will be evident to anybody that talks to you.
Re:It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:5, Insightful)
As the GP mentioned, you only get to make a good impression once you have the interview. Getting to the interview is based first (and foremost) on networking (who you know). If you don't have connections, then you need to rely on your resume; fresh out of college, the school's reputation is one of the few hooks you have to land that interview. Companies tend to get many more applicants than they can reasonably interview, so some amount of cheap (however unfair) filtering is necessary.
Once you're in the interview, your resume serves largely to help the interviewer frame his questions.
Re:It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:4, Insightful)
Me I opted for the tech school, and I regret it. Your college experience is partly about your career options, and partly about an important stage in your personal development, and I'm thoroughly of the opinion that the liberal arts school will serve you better in the latter regard. You'll be exposed to more diverse ways of thinking, you'll probably come out better adjusted, and your chances of getting some good experiences with wine, women, and song (figuratively speaking) will be much higher.
If it is me doing the hiring (and sometimes it is), all other things being equal I take the liberal arts guy. My experience with tech school graduates has left me soured on them (even being one myself). Their personal shortcomings (read 'huge ego problems') often outweigh any technical benefits they have to offer. Anyway, when I'm hiring I ask people to send me a portfolio, and that matters more than anything else they have to send.
As for the career stuff, you won't suffer having gone to a liberal arts school. If you do some creative work while you're in school, that'll count much more than the name of the school you attended. Sometimes the big-name tech school helps you get an interview, but I don't think it does much more than that.
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In fact, I'd go a bit farther and argue that the program that's heavier on theory is a better bet (assuming they do eventually get out of the theory and into practice). The theory will give you the grounding in the field, making learning a new language a matter of syntax & the libs, rather than trying to learn whole paradigms.
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A highly regarded school is a highly regarded school. On top of that, I interview people to work for my tech company and I don't care if you're from MIT or middle of nowhere college, it all depends on what comes out of your mouth during the interview. And I haven't met a company that's any different.
I admire you for your nobility, but in my experience, the real world isn't quite so idealistic, especially when judging straight-out-of-college applicants.
Right now, the current generation (and their parents) are being taught to buy into the "big names," regardless of any other factors. The rankings craze is at least partially to blame, and MIT arguably markets itself better than Apple (no small feat!)
In reality, a college education is almost entirely what you make of it. The legacy-admitted grade-inflated Ivy grad might get the better job straight out of school, but the hardworking state-school grad will almost certainly end up being more successful in the long run, once he's had a chance to prove himself.
That, and experience (Score:5, Insightful)
But a healthy presence in open source projects to gain experience, as well as being active in your local tech community can go a long way. Having the degree is fine - having it with experience is even better.
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Then I heard an interview with Bill Gates in which he implied MS hired all the top graduates from certain colleges. They were trying to establish relationships with other schools, but these were the only ones that had acceptable
HR departments don't care (Score:5, Informative)
Once you understand that, you need to understand yourself and your goals. What do you want to do with your degree? Do you want to be a sysadmin (face it, you can go to Devry and do that job competently), programmer, manager, researcher? These are things that should influence your decision. If you want to work in a research department (say PARC or MSR), you will need postgraduate degrees, and the best thing in that case is to choose the tech school. Other than that, you would probably have more fun at the liberal arts college.
You should also think about what kind of college experience you want. Do you want to go to a large school with many opportunities to meet a very diverse set of people? Do you want to go to a small school and be more than just another face in the crowd? Do you want to be involved in fraternities? Which school will give you the school experience you want?
Where are the schools located? Do you want to live in a small college town? How about a big city? Do you want the college to be your primary connection to the world, or do you want to explore outside the gates? How much cold weather can you stand? How much crime can you stand? Which school has the best location for you?
There are a great many factors in choosing a school. Do not limit your choices because you heard that one program is better than another. If you really don't know what you want to do yet, don't make the choice on program reputation alone. If you know you want the best program, then maybe that is the best choice, but in the end the "better" program is not going to prepare you much better than the "worser" program.
Not very (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not very (Score:5, Funny)
<br/><br/><br/><br/><br/><br/>
take some of them
Chose what you like better (Score:5, Insightful)
Employers Want Fast Learners & Good Communicat (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, I suspect you'll get a fair number of comments arguing against attending a liberal arts college. You're asking a Slashdot audience, so approach such comments with caution.
I've interviewed and hired some employees, and I have also interviewed dozens of students applying to one of America's most elite universities for admission (or much more often rejection). (I also had a similar decision to make at age 17.) Above all else I look for candidates who can learn quickly and who can communicate well. That second attribute is arguably less common among graduates from technical institutions, but communication starts with your resume (or a campus recruiting event, or whatever), not with the mere identity of your college, so I keep an open mind and would invite you to an interview if the signs are otherwise positive. I also look for inquisitiveness: are you a person who is inherently curious about the world? I look for other attributes, too, but those three are priorities.
But even before you get to an interview or apply for a job, do you know what you want to do when you grow up? A lot of prospective college students are not sure, and many or most change their minds. Some colleges provide more options than others if you do change your mind. I would recommend using college as a vehicle to explore your curiosities. That journey of exploration builds confidence, and confident, thoughtful people often interview better. If you are already sure about your path, great, go chase your dream. If you are not, then go explore what fascinates you to build your dream.
Good luck.
Find a School Near a Beach (Score:3, Insightful)
I went to the best tech school that accepted me (Rensselaer). I have this piece of wisdom to pass on: choose a school that's near a beach--Miami, California, whatever. The climate should be temperate all year round.
I went into the Air Force after I graduated, and since then, only one employer was impressed by the fact that I graduated from Rensselaer.
I would, however, suggest that you try to get a technical/engineering school that meets the above requirement of beach-i-ness.
To some it may seem like this post is meant to be funny. It's not. If I could do it all over again, I would choose the best technicial university that's near a beach in a temperate zone.
Value of a BA (Score:3, Interesting)
It's getting so that any bachelor's degree is about worthless except as a stepping stone to a master's degree, mainly thanks to absurd grade inflation. If you show up to class 90% of the time and are sober, you'll get straight A's in most bachelor's programs these days (if you don't show up or aren't sober, you'll only get a B+). So I advise going to whatever school has the most interesting non-CS bachelor's program that you're interested in just for fun and then spend another year and a half or two getting an MS in CS from a serious CS school. The difference in starting salaries and opportunities between an MS and a BS make this more than worthwhile. I advise this as someone who has a BA in non-CS from a state school and an MS in IT from a prestigious private school - salaries and opportunities are a LOT better with an MS.
Advice from someone who hires programmers (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Seek a good internship/coop that allows you to develop practical experience. Many of these are one or two-semester gigs (or one or two summers). When I was in school, I had a 3.5 yr coop which was basically a long-term relationship with a local employer. That was hugely valuable, as by the time I graduated I had a ton of experience (even leading small projects). I would have gotten a full-time offer had that department not been closed down shortly after I left.
2) Work on some interesting hobby projects. School projects are often an interesting spring board, but consider ways to apply what you are learning to scratching some itch.
Personally, I don't give the candidate's school a whole lot of weight. Maybe it gets my attention when looking at a sea of applicants, but I consider each applicant on his/her own merit as demonstrated by the resume, cover letter, and other submitted materials. The most crucial aspect of the whole process is actually the on-site interview. Everything else is just a screening mechanism.
What I look for most is what Joel Spolsky from Joel on Software refers to as "Smart and Gets Things Done." For me, that means someone who is interested in programming because they think it's cool and provides an outlet for creative problem solving, and someone who has demonstrated an ability to tackle problems in the past.
Therefore, I would recommend that you choose a college based on the total experience you will get. Consider everything college offers: learning about a lot of topics, meeting new people, exposure to new ideas, a new level of freedom and independence, moving to a new place to be exposed to new culture, etc... Many of the classes that had the most impact on me and were most memorable were far outside the CS curriculum. Consider what opportunities are available there with each school. Think about what it will be like to live in each of the cities the colleges are located in. Think about what there could be to explore and discover there. Choose the school that is best for you on all of those fronts - don't limit yourself to just choosing a CS program.
In a few years where you got your CS degree won't matter so much, but the memories and experiences you got while in school will last your entire lifetime. Many of those experience will be unrelated to what happened in the classroom.
No, you have it ALL wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
University is about "networking"; building contacts who will help progress your career. The actual degree or even qualification itself are almost completely irrelevant. At Uni you are creating your "old boy's network". People who will later give you work contracts, quash driving offences, introduce you to politicians etc.
With that in mind you should take a look at the type of people going to each institution. Are they middle class, working class, wealthy etc. What are the entrance fees?
I recommend the Tech college (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Some companies look for someone from a good tech college. If they are doing resume mining you can be sure they aren't looking for U of Nowhere. Also for example my current employer has half its staff from the same school. They see the school name and have an idea of what someone graduating from there should know.
2) If you get a more specialized interest as you go through school you'll be more likely to find courses/research supervisors for your interest. If you are in a small faculty you might get lucky. But if you are in a large one you'll almost certainly have someone in any niche you are thinking about.
3) You'll get a wider peer group from which to use for future job info, business partners etc. Plus in a small school you might date the one girl in your program and have it not work out. At a big school you can choose between several geek girls, or go to another department.
4) You also can be more selective with your friends/project team mates, you don't have much choice with a small program because either you will clump up with a couple people and do projects together, or some other group with form and force you into a group by default. You don't want to be forced to work with people you can't stand. It happens enough in the real world why experience more of it than you have too? ;)
What is your goal? (Score:4, Insightful)
I went to a college that had a smaller CS program, but it was decently broad in nature. By the time I got to the 400-level classes there were 15 or less people in each class, but the classes also represented a great number of sub-fields in CS; from advanced classes in AI, Distributed Computing, and Signal Processing to a number of more esoteric courses they were trying out in web and 3D modeling. Not to mention the ability to pick up business classes or additional math or science classes (or even Liberal Arts courses) that could allow you to pick up a minor or further explore another interest.
If your primary goal is a CS degree, I agree that it rarely matters to an interviewer where you received that degree (though it does matter on occasion). However, the breadth of courses available from the institution and the number of classes they will _allow_ you to take from your major (as opposed to required credits from other branches and required elective credits from other branches) are going to have an impact on the level of knowledge you attain and the number of sub-fields you will get to explore. Additionally, you should look into how much the school supports internships. One of the things that helped me best during my college education was the fact that I was working for pay on real projects, which then gave me a different perspective on the course material.
Also, if you are considering a highly recommended liberal arts school and a highly recommended tech school, why not look at one or two state colleges that have good CS departments? The price range (even out of state) may be in the same range you are looking at for that liberal arts college, the fact that it is a state school will likely have brought in students for a wide variety of degrees, but (if you use CS program quality as criteria) there will also be a greater breadth of CS classes available, allowing you to learn about multiple sub-fields to better determine where you would like to go in CS.
Maybe a story will help. (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe the story of an invention will shed a little light.
Once upon a time there was an invention.
The inventors showed it to a scientist. He said, "Cool, why does it work?"
Then they showed it to a engineer. He said, "Cool, how does it work?"
Then they showed it to a business major. He said, "Cool, how much can we sell it for?"
Then they showed it to a liberal arts major. She said, "Cool..."
"You want fries with that?"
Re:Maybe a story will help. (Score:4, Informative)
Two X chromosones.
considered inferior? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are CS majors considered inferior? Yes.
Once you've joined a company, worked there for a while, you too will have the same low opinion of graduates. That will be doubly true of the graduates who think they know everything and should be hired as principal engineers immediately.
A good attitude is the best thing to have, as an inexperienced job-seeker (to be), you only need 2 things: enthusiasm and a willingness to learn, and good communication ability.
Umm.. The 3 things you need are enthusiasm, willingness to learn, good communication ability and some technical skills of any sort.
Bu**er. The 4 things you need are... I'll start again. Fortunately you no longer need a fanatical devotion to Bill Gates.
Think long term (Score:3, Insightful)
Long term, your liberal arts college is probably going to give you a broader education, and set you up for a quicker career path to management, starting your own business or other broadening out from plain development, if that is what you want. It'll also offer more opportunities for liasing with hot chicks during your college years, which is not to be underestimated.
Short term, you might find that the initial job offers immediately after graduating offer better salaries, or are more forthcoming from the tech focused school, but that's more difficult to predict, and it could just as easily swing the other way.
More advice from someone that hires programmers (Score:3, Interesting)
So although I may give a cursory glance at your past, your school is not going to be particularly interesting to me. I might be impressed if DURING college you've done done some interesting things, like say functional/logic programming, neural nets, cluster programming, and so on, the stuff you don't typically encounter in normal boring programming.
But in the end, you write code for a living. So your REAL resume is far more about your code than it is about your degree.
You learn a LOT more about a programmer by simply asking them to send you 5,000 lines of their best code than you will from a resume.
If you can't put together 5,000 lines of stuff only you wrote at all, or you can't because "I wrote it at the company and they won't let me" that says a lot too (mostly that you don't do any programming at all outside of work, but also that perhaps you don't have any experience working in an enlightened programming culture).
This is why experience on an Open Source project is so valuable. It's a repository you can point to and say "I wrote that" and I can look at the repository logs and verify it.
I get to see what your coding is like. Are you clean, do you comment and document well, do you just cut and paste a lot, are you a leader or a plodder (both of which can be useful).
An Open Source project is job experience with unlimited disclosure.
I don't care if you went to MIT and did computation physics of compressible fluids. If the other guy can show me 10k of well built, maintainable and innovative code, he wins.
Unless he's an asshole to work with. But then the job is his to lose at that point, not yours to win.
My take (Score:3, Interesting)
You won't regret liberal arts (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends (Score:3, Informative)
You will probably learn more CS, just by osmosis, if you go to a top flight CS program. However, if you are really suited for a career that a CS degree prepares you for, it probably does not matter because you'll learn anyway. There may be educational opportunities at more balanced institutions that you come to appreciate later.
There are two, really important questions you have to ask, especially if you are choosing a school based on a CS program. First, are you absolutely certain that CS is what you want to pursue? It may not be what you expect. Choose an institution that will give you options for a second choice. Second, will you finish a degree in the institution you have chosen, whether or not it is a CS degree?
In the end, if you are planning a career that requires a CS degree, it's more important that you have a degree than a CS degree; it's more important that you have a CS degree at all than you have one from a prestigious program.
The vocational value of a CS degree from a prestigious program marginal, especially if you know how to write a good application letter and give a good interview. The educational value of a prestigious degree is marginal, if you have a talent and interest for the field. It's not that these things aren't useful, it's that they're mainly useful if you don't have personal qualities that would even the playing field if you went to a less prestigious place. The irony is that in the words of the song, if you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere. And you will. And sometimes you can't make it there for reasons that have nothing to do with your talent.
In the end, the most important thing is that you get the degree. If you come from a family that doesn't have a lot of money or has some other kind of instability that means you don't have bottomless support for your education, it's probably a bad idea to go to an expensive program famous for its pressure cooker atmosphere.
Anybody can have a bad quarter (which is a bad year if the quarter is the last half of an academic quarter and the first half of the next). It could be an existential crisis, or it could be a physical health issue, or it can be an unexpected financial problem. If you don't have a family support cushion, and you don't have any financial slack, you can be screwed. Don't forget that sometimes institutions are more generous with freshman financial aid packages to attract the students they want.
I'm not discouraging your from applying or going to a prestigious program. I just want you to consider that the value of prestige has its limits, and that practical matters like cost can leave you in debt without any offsetting prestige. In the end the best advice is to choose a school you think you will be most happy at, and you'll get the most out of it. Don't sacrifice anything for prestige. Ultimately the only prestige that is worthwhile is the prestige you earn through your own distinctive accomplishments.
Why not do BOTH? (Score:4, Interesting)
I got my undergraduate degree from a liberal arts college (CS major, math minor), but then, after a small hiatus, received an MS from a well-known technical school.
A few random observations from a veteran of industry:
Good luck!
One word: Internship (Score:3, Informative)
Think of the liberal arts program as a barebones system, that you need to complete on your own with more applied experience, like an internship. In the long term, the theory they teach there is much more important than tools like programming languages, since those skills are mostly picked up on the job, and often not carried from one job to the next. On the other hand, the big engineering program probably has much better connections to industry and will get your career up and running more easily, just as an OEM computer works as soon as you turn it on.
If you choose the liberal arts program, you will need to augment it somehow with practical experience, or go to grad school at a big engineering program and get it there. If you want to take a DIY approach to your career, go to the liberal arts school and seek out internships to get experience. If you just want to focus on the tech, go to the big school which probably has a better equipped career center for the skills you'll be developing.
Getting a broad-based education at a tech school (Score:3, Insightful)
What I found that was important --- studying with lots of smart people really challenges you, and makes you put in the extra effort so you can minor in student activities _and_ still hold down a good GPA. Learning computer science architectural lessons from older systems like Multics is very valuable; much more so than learning the syntax of C or Java. Learning how to schedule workers for the refreshment committees, disassembling and cleaning a soda machine, and figuring profit margins on soda and popcorn, does teach you many valuable lessons in the real world. So does taking classes in economics and law; just as much so as learning how to build a computer using a breadboard, wires, and 74xx TTL chips.
The important thing to remember is that you can get a very broad based education at a technical school, but you have to reach out for it. I would be very dubious about a school (liberals arts or not) that concentrated more on math theory than CS architecture. Learning on the past mistakes and success of real-life operating systems is valuable. I'm not so convinced about learning about type theory and type functions. Most good technical schools will have clases in IP law, negotiating, economics, and those are very much good things to learn. In particular, if you don't know how to read a balance sheet and a profit and loss statement before you leave college, do take the time to find out. It's useful in so many different contexts....
Re:Tough call (Score:3, Informative)
Somewhat offtopic rant, but as an older college student working full-time, I think it's a shame that G.E.'s are necessary for an accredited degree - as if they assume everybody is fresh outta high school with
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where will you be in 20 years? (Score:5, Funny)
both the liberal arts and tech grads are stuck in cubicles, but the liberal arts grad can make wittier whips at the water tank and has an extra smirk when he sips his latte.
True, Experience matters (Score:5, Informative)
Great programmers have formal training (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a lot of really good self-taught programmers out there, and they can write some pretty cool software. However, the truly elite programmers are the educated ones that can understand the principles that make it all work.
The really good employers know this. You're not going to get the plum job at Google unless you know what a fixed-point function is and what it's good for. Fog Creek Software doesn't want to hire you unless you really understand pointers and recursion. There's really neat jobs at Sun Microsystems that need you to DEEPLY understand object-orientation and algorithm analysis.
The number of people that can learn that stuff on their own is vanishingly small. Even if you can learn it by yourself, there's nothing like going through a rigorous 4-year program where you have these topics stuffed down your throat and drilled into you until you know it backwards and forwards. A good CS degree practically guarantees that you'll have a suite of kick-ass high-level skills by the time you graduate.
Yes, a good programmer will teach his (or herself) on a lot of topics. However, for many things there's just no substitute for a good old education.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What is a "fixed-point function" ?
Got me. (Score:3, Funny)
So are horrible programmers. (Score:3, Insightful)
How many athletes do you know who started playing a sport in college? How many musicians? Even things like Chemistry, Math, Medicine, Law - you started learning the basics of those careers in junior high and high school.
Programming isn't any different. People who are going to be great at programming started doing it in high school (or earlier) and are going to get
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Someone who shows up at college with no programming experience is likely not going to be a GREAT programmer. It's too late. They're competing against people who have been programming for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years. It's too much of a head start.
You're comparing apples to oranges there. Becoming a great programmer is an independent challenge. Other peoples' skill set has no bearing on your skill as a programmer. Your education is not a competition to be won over other students.
I have seen some really solid programmer come out of colleges with slim to nil experience coding prior to enrolling. Were they "great" programmers right out of college? Nah, they were solid though, good enough that I wouldn't hesitate to hire any of them for a junior/mid-lev
Re:What? (Score:4, Funny)
Yes. I have a PhD in CS with a focus on pwning n00bs. You're welcome to attend any of my courses:
CS 100: Strategic Placement (Camping)
CS 200: Circuits & Timers (Bomb Defusing)
CS 300: Psychology (Greifing)
I'm an Ohioan from Missouri (Score:3, Insightful)