Windows Cheap Enough For $2B Aussie Laptop Deal 234
An anonymous reader writes "Windows-based netbooks aren't too expensive to be ruled out of the Aussie government's billion dollar promise to give a laptop to every school-aged child, according to several education departments. The admission follows an earlier report that open source machines based on Ubuntu or Mandriva are the only option to deliver up to four million computers to students for under $2 billion. Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices."
Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Insightful)
internet connection for each of those school children.
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Re:Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Insightful)
well, since they're netbooks, not desktops, you'd need ubiquitous wireless access in order to match the functionality that would be provided with Ubuntu + OpenOffice. and considering that Australia's one of the few developed countries behind the U.S. in internet infrastructure, that seems very unlikely.
to get the full benefits of the hardware, you pretty much have to go with FOSS or spend a heck of a lot more money.
Re:Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Funny)
While Australia's wired access in rural areas is lacking, we have pretty much ubiquitous access to fast mobile (wireless) broadband. In fact, you can get 7.2mbit access pretty much everywhere in the country.
That's soon going to be 21mbit, the first large scale roll-out in the world of that particular mobile technology.
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While Australia's wired access in rural areas is lacking, we have pretty much ubiquitous access to fast mobile (wireless) broadband. In fact, you can get 7.2mbit access pretty much everywhere in the country.
That's soon going to be 21mbit, the first large scale roll-out in the world of that particular mobile technology.
Really? The best Telstra can do is 3mbps download. If you want to pay $125 a month you can get a 10Gb shaped download plan (shaped to 64kbps if you exceed this). Sounds expensive.
Most of the plans are capped at 1Gb or less (25c a MB if exceeded).
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You do realize that the United States is over 2.27x the land area of the EU, right? Australia is also over twice as large as the EU.
The point I'm trying to make is that people complain about the lack of "broadband saturation" in the US, but don't seem to realize that South Korea is 32,622 square miles while the US is over 3.7MILLION square miles.
There is a whole hell of a lot of space to cover, lots of people, etc. The major metro areas have things covered, but its terribly difficult to to get everything
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With respect to the US, this was debunked time and time again.
Yes, US is large. But most of its population is still gathered in very densely populated areas. Regardless, even within those areas, broadband saturation is nowhere near as high as it is in similarly populated areas in Europe, not to mention Korea or Japan.
Furthermore, Canada and a few European countries (such as Finland) also have pretty large swathes of land with little population scattered around villages, yet they somehow manage to get broadb
Re:Too bad there won't be a useful (Score:5, Insightful)
$500 a "netbook"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Must be some pretty damn good machines to pay $500 a unit on an order of 4 million units.
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:5, Informative)
For millions of units of something made in Taiwan, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to get a reasonable price on it in Australia. At that volume, you can rent your own ship. If you're the Australian government, you shouldn't be paying customs. Etc.
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And when you use a more efficient Linux environment as LXDE the maschine gets faster and more eco-efficient. If teaching applications move the cloud as Microsoft pretends the client operating system does not matter.
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, the stuff is made in Taiwan or somewhere else in South East Asia, and yes, that's closer to Australia, than it is to most of the US, but we still pay more for everything.
It's just the way things are. Just about everything is more expensive here.
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There's got to be some Australian government policy making things that way then, because normally this sort of thing gets solve automatically by the market. Think of all the money *you* could make going to Taiwan or Hong Kong, buying netbooks for 250 AUD, shipping them bulk to Australia (probably less than $1/piece) and selling them for $300 AUD...
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Oh dear. You're not familiar with the Australian government are you?
For a start, the majority of the cost on computers is luxury tax. Yes, the tax man in Australia still considers computers to be a "luxury".
Secondly, if the education department was to opt not to pay the luxury tax on these laptops then the revenue department would claim a shortfall. Ever wonder why government employees have to pay income tax? I mean, shit, their salary comes from the government. For a while I thought the defense force
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I'm an accountant and this is wrong. There is no luxury tax on computers. It is certainly not the majority of cost on computers.
There is no luxury tax. I'll let you work out if it's a taxable supply for GST purposes. Suggest read
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well, 500 AUD = 329.85 USD. which is also the list price for the Asus Eee PC in Australia [gizmodo.com.au] (for the Linux version, i'm assuming).
shipping/customs shouldn't be a issue since it's being ordered by the Australian government, and in such bulk that the per unit shipping cost would be negligible.
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well, 500 AUD = 329.85 USD. which is also the list price for the Asus Eee PC in Australia [gizmodo.com.au] (for the Linux version, i'm assuming).
shipping/customs shouldn't be a issue since it's being ordered by the Australian government, and in such bulk that the per unit shipping cost would be negligible.
The 701 model eee is advertised in the paper here in .au for $350 aud but I have seen it for 300 in a different store and I would expect to pay no more than 250 given that you can get better models now.
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:4, Informative)
Note that the article is about Australia; one Aussie dollar currently equals 66 US cents and after the various middlemen get their markup the value of a computer in AUD is often double its USD value.
(funny how every time the AUD approaches the USD, something happens to the stock market to bring it back down :p)
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When I went to school we even hade to pay for things like compass and protractor, and those things where actually useful for the studies to!
Re:$500 a "netbook"? (Score:5, Informative)
A real PM (Score:2)
A real PM could get the unit cost down to $300, and use the other $200 for labor cost for the related services and servers.
Windows wins here because they can afford to drive their unit cost into negative numbers. There's no credible antitrust agency that would prevent that.
Which leads credence to the growing opinion that Windows adds negative value. Another word for negative value is 'cost'.
The Pusher (Score:5, Insightful)
Get off your high horse, kid (Score:3, Interesting)
You only have to mouse over to Walmart.com to see Windows becoming very competitive with Linux in the netbook sector.
It's a familiar story.
The OEM Linux box enters the retail market with bottom-feeder specs.
It is never upgraded - even as the entry-level Windows PC approaches the same price point with hardware that was mid-line or better six months or so back.
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It is never upgraded
Well when you're used to an OS that needs reformatting every six months to get it back to a usable speed, I can see why that might be an issue.
Re:The Pusher (Score:5, Funny)
Nah, it'd have to be nicotine.
It's heavily marketed, addictive and once you're hooked, you have to keep spending and spending to get more of the same, though there's been no buzz for decades.
Educational applications in the cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Educational applications on a web server are nothing new. It's funny, though, that Windows would need them. I have one of these small-cheap-light laptops that cost $350 and is intended for use with Windows "only for web browsing and email". I put Debian on it. There's only one thing I have found that it can't do: build the Linux kernel quickly. It's kind of slow at that, but it works. OpenOffice is no problem, etc.
But with a cloud, you can tie all of those kids into a network that Microsoft will be able to monetize, propogandize, etc.
Bruce
Re:Educational applications in the cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Duh.
Besides, "code you have on the box beats code that might be available".
What's sad here isn't that Mr. Perens comment is, well, common sense, but rather that so many don't see it as so obvious.
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Re:Educational applications in the cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices."
It will keep the costs for the hardware down by hosting the applications elsewhere. Or, to put it another way, they will host education apps online for free (now) so that the required hardware specs are lower, allowing more of the total to be spent on (Microsoft) software used to access the (.NET, Windows-only) server side software (which may not remain free for long after the initial investment on Windows laptops has been made and you are locked in).
Re:Educational applications in the cloud (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what "monetize" meant :-)
I don't think they're reducing the cost of the hardware, though. $350 USD pays for an Acer Aspire One with 1G RAM and 160G disk at retail. And you can probably get a much better price in a bulk purchase. I think they are budgeting AU $500 per unit. That leaves a lot of money for Microsoft even in the initial purchase.
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But with a cloud, you can tie all of those kids into a network that Microsoft will be able to monetize, propogandize, etc.
Isn't that a bit "conspiracy theorist"? Why can't the explanation be something normal, like Microsoft making sure that every kid in Australia grows up believing that computer == Windows.
What a surprise (Score:5, Interesting)
"We're thinking of using Linux" == "Hey Microsoft, we want a discount!"
Re:What a surprise (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What a surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What a surprise (Score:5, Interesting)
Many average computer users haven't even heard of Linux even though they use it every day whether they know it or not. That is slowly changing, but M$ is sure doing everything they can to slow its spread. Thus, every little bit done to spread knowledge of it and improve it as a platform, helps.
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"Mom, you need to buy me Adobe Creative Suite 3, I need it for class, it's only $500."
No, see, Adobe provides "student" editions which are cheaper. And by "cheaper" I mean they cost $100 instead of $500.. but that's still too expensive for the majority of parents with 2.5 kids.
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Oh do fuck off. The software costs $500 because people will pay $500. If people would pay $5000, they'd charge $5000. If people wouldn't pay $500, they'd charge $100.. which is why they offer that price to students, cause otherwise they won't buy it. It's called the market price and it has nothing to do with how much it costs to make it.
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I know it's the market price, I doubt Adobe Creative Suite XX costs 10x more to develop than certain AAA video games out there. But that's beside the point. The point being that student versions are offered to learn off of. You also forget that a lot of companies provide student software for free or extremely cheap prices ($5-$20)(Yes many of them get paid indirectly through tec
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The parent was arguing that such companies are acting like drug dealers which is disingenuous...
Why? You have to make an argument. Everyone else can see that they are acting like drug dealers.. giving you your first "hit" for free. So what magical insight do you have that the rest of us are wrong?
My point was, as if anyone cares, that people see a "student edition" of a $500 product for $100 and go "wow, look how cheap that is!" when there are perfectly capable alternatives on the market for much less than even the student price. I actually hear people say with glee "wow, it's great that I can pay
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Not for long. [slashdot.org]
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You aren't even thinking of the potential consequences if Australia pisses off MS bad enough. Clippy is going to say, "It looks like you are writing a letter about going to Australia. You should know that it doesn't exist.
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Indeed, this is why the governments need to invest more in open source. It does not matter if they use it, it is just a fantastic tool to get really cheap procurement contracts.
Not really the same. (Score:4, Informative)
This seems like apples and oranges... With Ubuntu (for example) they're storing their files locally, with Windows they're going to be stored on Microsoft's servers somewhere, it's not really a comparable solution.
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Why would installing Ubuntu mean that they store files locally? Networked storage wasn't invented by Microsoft.
Oops! (Score:2, Insightful)
I can see a hosted version of Microsoft Office 2007.
The internet (or LAN) goes down, or there's some major power outage, and no-one can do their work or homework.
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Save money (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Save money (Score:4, Funny)
Two Laptops Per Child Act (TLPC)
Re:Save money (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Save money (Score:4, Interesting)
But negative prices are still possible! Microsoft should offer the netbooks with Windows away for free to schools. Otherwise the schools pay the lock-in costs and do product training and platform marketing for the monopolist for free. It is like paying for a galley seat and workout.
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The only people who "lose" in such a situation are the people who want the kids forced to use Linux instead of what they'd like. Personally, I don't really care what OS people use. If they want OS X, great. Windows, fine. Linux, sure.
Here's the big question, though: do you really think the people who would use these laptops would rather have Linux? Or do you think they'd rather have the Windows environment that they are used to? And if they'd rather have the latter, who the hell are you to try to shove Linu
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I think you've completely missed the point.
It's not about forcing people to use Linux. The kids will work on whatever laptops they're given.
The point here is that the governments are going with the wrong solution because:
- There isn't enough money for the windows solution to give every kid a laptop
- Applications hosted over the internet is just dumb, if the internet connection dies no one can do their work.
- If windows was given away for free Microsoft would most likely charge for the hosted apps.
If anythin
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I've been using Linux since 1999, and the year of Linux o
The Two Billion Dollar Laptop (Score:4, Funny)
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Catch on? No. But it might catch fire!
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Also, in season 3, you could bring in a bionic iBook for a few episodes, who'll get her own spinoff, but make sure it has Ben Browder in it so it'll get canceled after a season and a half.
Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course.
I have a feeling that is what the case will be. The teachers who have Windows desktops in their classrooms took one look at Linux and went "No. You give us Windows or the boxes will wind up collecting dust in the back of the classroom." And that was probably was what alot of the Independent Education software vendors said too. "We have thousands of man hours and workers tied up in this Windows only education software. We will not port our software to Linux. Put Windows on your boxes or we will take our business elsewhere."
Re:Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, because ISVs often dictate the terms for government contracts.
Re:Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:5, Insightful)
QuantumG is correct also look at the quantities. 4m. 4m units you get to set terms to software vendors.
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Re:Teachers were probably the reason. (Score:4, Insightful)
What the Departments and consultants would be saying is...
So counter those arguments as thus:
1. The teachers that get sent off for Windows "training" come back nearly as clueless as to usage to make it a laugh at best. Just pick your apps, train a few staff, and have them take it from there. You tell the teachers what to click, and they do so. This is NO different than Windows or OSX. Once those boxes are set up and networked, there is VERY little a teacher needs to do that'd require anything above "user" level.
2. Key phrase here is "teachers pulled from the classroom". If they're already teaching, then they've already been trained on whichever system they're using that year. It isn't like they're going to be installing RAID arrays and other hardware. That's usually saved for the hardware vendor. Once again, this is showing someone how to show someone what to click. No worries.
Here it doesn't matter if Windows or Ubuntu get picked as they both serve the purpose well.
Sure, were it not for the MS plan to host this in "the cloud"... {Oooo, do I hate that 2-word phrase. It's a network, ya doofs. Fraggin' buzzword bingo. {/soapbox}}
Internet access isn't cheap in Australia. Unless they're considering local hosting, MS's apps will eat bandwidth for no reason other than to run a word processor. Multiply that by just a few hundred students, and it starts looking ugly for whomever's paying the ISP. Multiply this by the number of students in Australia, and it's downright nasty.
I could care less which OS they use, as long as they're using SOME sense about it.
What a great alternative (Score:5, Insightful)
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i'm sure they exist, they just aren't sought after by schools because everyone uses Windows. if you're only ever putting out ads looking for teachers proficient in Windows, then that's all you'll ever come across. that does not mean that Linux or even Unix-savvy teachers don't exist. and even if there aren't enough at the moment, by actually creating a demand for such teachers you'll start attracting Linux users to the teacher profession, not to mention it'll pressure current teachers to pick up Linux.
i mea
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So what's the difference? They're crap on windows, they're crap on Ubuntu.. I don't see the point you're making here..
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What the hell are you talking about?
There's nothing difficult about using Linux in a school environment. What are these laptops going to be used for? Office and Web Browsing at most.
Go away troll.
Cloud == Cheaper?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Considering overhead... (Score:2, Interesting)
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When you buy for 2 billion worth, you tend to get better deals, so I'm not sure those numbers will be on the dot.
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All of the EEEs can run XP.
Computer != Education (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, it's a tool, but wouldn't that $2 billion be better spent on smaller class sizes, better teachers, etc.?
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Yeah, I guess you're right.
But are there any studies showing that students having laptops improve their learning to justify such an expense?
Do the students keep the laptops post-graduation?
And, could some overcrowded schools benefit from more teachers to reduce class size? Not all schools, but some.
And, where precisely is this money coming from? The taxpayers, right? Is Australia in a recession like America? Maybe it's time to conserve rather than spend.
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Australia is very much a Keynesian oriented economy. Australia is also not currently in recession and has a budget surplus. We may not have a surplus when it's over and we may get dragged into recession by the rest of you, but for now the government can spend to keep the economy from going into recession. In fact, it's the Keynesian way :-).
Because big government contracts coming from the budget surplus (or even a small temporary deficit) give the economy a much needed kick.
M$'s software = free when unwanted (Score:2)
Summary incorrect (Score:5, Informative)
to give a laptop to every school-aged child
No, the policy is to give upper high school children in years 9-12 a laptop not "every school-aged child".
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Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS piper (Score:2, Insightful)
OK, so Micro$haft have come up with a cost model that in the short term "may" allow the laptops to be purchased for the same money, but ffs can't people look long term with this stuff and not just the initial up front cost.
So you aren't paying the MS tax for office now, but instead you are just amoritising that cost over years of needing larger internet bandwidth to the "cloud". With some of the crap being bandied about down here lets go out on the edge and look at issues with this...
- The ne
Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi (Score:4, Insightful)
So, I don't need to see a cost analysis, and I definitely don't need to see one from M$ to try to justify their existence to me. Money should go into FOSS through paid development, bounties, and support. That should be what all institutions are geared towards, but instead they are stuck in the past.
"Here's a government contract to make the FOSS equivalent of Reader Rabbit for students for our schools. We are now taking bids."
That's the kind of stuff everyone should be seeing from their governments. The amount of money that every single school district spends on individual purchases for close source software, oftentimes it being the same software over and over and over again for all the licenses, would be enough money to pay developers to program every single piece of open source software schools would ever need all over the entire world a hundred times over, and what's more it would be a long-term investment instead of a flash in the pan. When governments wake up to this, the world will be a better place, but they won't wake up until citizens start waking them.
P.S., of course you can apply it to all other branches of governments, to businesses, and everyone else. The amount of money thrown away for temporary software orgasms is astronomical. More cooperation is needed for the new age of software development.
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It's simple, Linux = free. Windows = cost.
Now when did retraining suddenly become free?
"Here's a government contract to make the FOSS equivalent of Reader Rabbit for students for our schools. We are now taking bids."
So...in other words, Linux isn't free.
I'm kind of curious how much OSS code you actually contribute, as opposed to whining about how bad Microsoft is.
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From the article you didn't read..
Also, Why are you talking about re-training for? These are laptops for the kids not the teachers.
Are you trying to suggest that a kid couldn't figure out how to open and use firefox or open office on a netboo
New Windows 7/Vista Part Deux? (Score:2)
Wow, I thought Vista had terrible hardware requirements, but by deciding on Windows, they need a $2,000,000,000AU laptop to run it. What's next for Vista III? Someone will have to build Deep Thought?
yeah, right! (Score:2)
What a load of horseshit.
With Ubuntu and Open Office, they can have better OS and better software for free, and not have to rely on an internet connection all the time!
What Microsoft didn't say in the article was... (Score:2)
Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud
"We'll have software that runs on the device but also leverage Live Services and other applications that run in the cloud."
LITERALLY.
Microsoft 1 :: Children 0
At Redmond, WA, life is good...
I am Australian... (Score:3, Interesting)
Bad idea, Microsoft or not (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone else skeptical at the "cloud computing" bit (Score:3, Interesting)
But he revealed for the first time that cloud-based applications may be used alongside traditionally licensed software to make Microsoft-based tender proposals more attractive and cost-effective.
âoeNot everything has to run [locally] on the device,â said Watson.
âoeWeâ(TM)ll have software that runs on the device but also leverage Live Services and other applications that run in the cloud.â
If it's a common educational application that could be run locally on the machine anyway. How is it cheaper to run it in the cloud? Remember the context here seems to be about the purchase price of the laptop. It's conceivable that MS is reducing support load but I doubt by very much.
The cloud hosted application is going to have an ongoing cost that the local application isn't.
To me this sounds like MS using a different delivery mechanism to justify a discount that would probably anger their other channel partners.
But really it seems much cheaper to simply send an OS image to the laptop maker.
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But why? They want to teach them that they are inherently criminals and will be treated as such for the rest of their lives early. If you get them used to it as children they won't know any better as adults.
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and why would school kids using the laptops to web browser and do office need that?