Senator Prods Microsoft On H-1B Visas After Layoff Plans 574
CWmike writes "US Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) told Microsoft this week that US citizens should get priority over H-1B visa holders as the software vendor moves forward on its plan to cut 5,000 jobs. 'These work visa programs were never intended to allow a company to retain foreign guest workers rather than similarly qualified American workers, when that company cuts jobs during an economic downturn,' Grassley wrote in a letter sent Thursday to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. The letter asked Microsoft to detail the types of jobs that will be eliminated and how those cuts will affect the company's H-1B workers."
Reader theodp adds, "On Friday, Microsoft coincidentally announced it would postpone construction of a planned $500 million data center in Grassley's home state of Iowa, although work on data centers in Chicago and Dublin will continue."
Republican? (Score:3, Interesting)
Surprised a Republican did this. These guys are more likable when not in power, I guess.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, I was surprised too. Mostly because, though IANAUSACitizen, I had always assumed that the party which supposedly supports less government regulation and more free markets would... You know... Think that what kind of labor a company must keep should be left to markets (who works for cheapest compared to their skills) instead of government regulation.
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Everyone is more likeable when not in power.
2) Neither party actually practices what it preaches to any reasonable degree. If you want to vote for a balanced budget, exactly who do you vote for? Tax and spend democrats or borrow and spend republicans? (feel free to translate to non-depression times to make the question fair)
Of course that's a gross oversimplification, but balance is always in the middle, so we see parties break with their stereotypical views on issues from time to time. If anything I'd be more worried if we didn't.
Also not every single member of a party is in complete alignment with the party. I lean left, but I'm still in favor of guns, free markets (to the degree that this is possible while keeping them competitive), and against racism by any name. I fail to see why politicians should be any different, except perhaps more tacit on their views.
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to vote for a balanced budget, exactly who do you vote for? Tax and spend democrats or borrow and spend republicans?
Obviously, if you want a balanced budget, you have to vote for those willing to raise taxes along with increased spending. Though as an outsider looking in, it appears to me that both parties wants to borrow and spend, neither party really seems willing to raise taxes to pay for increased spending, or for existing spending for that matter.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because cutting taxes and spending will benefit the rich and harm everyone else, and most people are not rich.
Furthermore, all those "the poor should beg for charity in the streets" and "why should I pay for anyone's hospital bills ?" comments associated with libertarians make it very clear what life would be like for most people in a libertarian world: short and nasty. That's why libertarians will never hold a significant
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Insightful)
Many Republicans and other economic conservatives profess to believe in free markets and deregulation. Hypocritically, they staunchly support (and often demand) labor market regulation.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If Microsoft wants to move to india (or better! China) and live with their business laws then I applaud them.
However, if they wish to live in nice safe houses in seattle, then I think the voters in america have a say in how they do business.
Executives in india and china do not make as much as executives in the united states and they are not sentenced to death for selling tainted products.
You take the good with the bad.
Of course, another solution would be to allow them to use foreign labor and set a 90% tax
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>Think that what kind of labor a company must keep should be left to markets (who works for cheapest) compared to their skills) instead of government regulation.
That's true, but since it was the *government* who brought the foreign workers to the U.S., it's no longer a free market. It's entirely reasonable to say to Microsoft, "If you layoff American workers, we the government will take a hands-off policy and no longer help you with your future labor shortages. Figure it out on your own." The Republican policy can best be described as non-interference (sounds like Star Trek).
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Insightful)
>>>The government did not bring anybody to the US. The companies did.
Only because the government ALLOWED it to happen, therefore it is NOT a free market. It is a briber's market, where Microsoft paps politicians' pockets so they can get approval to bring-in foreigners.
In a truly free market, government and Microsoft would not talk to each other at all. Microsoft would have to deal with its labor shortages in a different manner (perhaps hire some U.S. engineers w/o jobs, instead of willfully ignoring them).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In a truly free market, the government wouldn't apply any restrictions to the flow of goods or workers into and out of the country. There'd be no need for MS to beg for H1Bs because the government wouldn't be preventing workers from other countries entering the US in th
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Insightful)
The free market doesn't work without consumers.
The reason it's profitable to use cheaper labor is because you're selling to higher earners. If you make sneakers at $1 a pair, you make a profit by selling them for $60.
If you outsource a large number of your workforce and don't have other jobs they can do at the same pay, they won't be buying lots of $60 sneakers.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Insightful)
a republican doesnt like foreigners. sounds normal to me.
Or more surprisingly, a Republican who likes American workers? Wall Street must really be broke if they are slumming like this.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess every politician who one does not agree with is more likable when he's not in power...
Re:Republican? - (Reelection) (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe you missed something. At the bottom of the summary, it says that Microsoft it would postpone a data center in his home state. That will cause unemployment in his home state to rise and his hopes of reelection to diminish. It's all about getting reelected. It's never too early to think of your chances the next time you face the voters in a poll, especially if your popularity is waning.
About Chuck Grassley (Score:3, Informative)
ObDisclosure: Charles Grassley is a family friend. I haven't had a conversation with him in several years, though.
Grassley is a vanishing breed. He's a small-town Iowan who still runs his own family farm. He's a child of the Depression and stretches a buck like it's nobody's business. He's the stereotype of Republicans from old Frank Capra movies: you can easily imagine him in a green-tinted eye visor making quiet, forlorn grief over how he forgot to get a receipt for lunch at McDonald's.
He was part of
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Interesting)
>>>Actually, it's none of the senator's business.
I agree. Therefore the government should immediately revoke all foreign VISAs, and assume a role of non-interference when it comes to labor: "You say you want to hire foreigners?" Bill Gates: "Yes." Congress: "Too bad. We won't help you import non-americans; find a different solution to your labor shortage."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Congress: "Too bad. We won't help you import non-americans; find a different solution to your labor shortage."
Bill: Moves all of Microsoft to India.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I fail to see the drawback.
Maybe that would give the U.S. just the excuze it needs to revoke all MSFT agreements in schools, governments, et cetera, and switch to open-source, or Apple Macintosh. Or not. I don;t really give a damn where Microspank keeps its offices, anymore than I care my car came from Japan.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
BillG's response might be "OK, I'm outsourcing half of Redmond to China, India, and Vietnam, and laying off 20000 in the US. Care to give me a different answer?" Even if it is an empty threat (despite the silliness in MS processes, there is a lot of tribal knowledge in Redmond that can't be easily duplicated), the congresscritters will stand up and take notice.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
BillG's response might be "OK, I'm outsourcing half of Redmond to China, India, and Vietnam, and laying off 20000 in the US. Care to give me a different answer?"
Sure - MSFT pays tariff and import taxes atop their corporate income tax, and the US Government mandates an immediate switch to Open Source and ODF as their file format standard for all gov't agencies and departments.
That's the problem with gamesmanship against the gov't (any government)... the gov't has the means to really screw your day when you start issuing ultimatums. Just ask MSFT how it's going with the EU right now if you want a comparison.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Govt.reply OK, to compensate for the loss of taxes, we the govt. will stop lobbying the rest of the world to enforce software patents etc. Enjoy your Lindows, Winduls, and whatever verbatim copies with a slight name change the world will use.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How is barring foreigners from working in the US assuming a role of non-interference? Non-interference would mean that anyone could come work here, and wouldn't need a visa in the first place.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's interesting.
I applied to Microsoft several times as an engineer, but they never even called me. I would have been happy to take a chair, rather than force them to import "Azid Thmbingam" from overseas. Especially since I was unemployed at the time.
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wasn't it Microsoft that went before a senate committee asking for more H-1B visas because they could not find enough qualified workers?
At that instant, Microsoft's H-1B visa workers became an issue with the senate.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends on where the layoffs are. Maybe it is in sections of Microsoft with no H1-B visas, after all I don't think they have hired marketing and HR guys through that program.
It could also be true that _Microsoft_ needed more H1-B visas, because other companies use them in quite a bad way and there are no visas left for the fairly few people MS do want to bring over. The issue isn't that terribly black and white after all, and got tons of twists and turns.
I am happy on the other hand that the senate is looki
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft just let 1400 workers go from their Licensing division in Reno, NV. Those are almost entirely non technical staff and would fall into the "financial services" folks they said they would lay off. It's also extremely unlikely there were any workers in that portion of the layoffs that had an H1-B.
Now, I would agree with the senator that if two people are being considered for a layoff and one has an H1-B and the other is a citizen, the H1-B should be let go. The reason being that Microsoft and the other tech companies argued that they desperately needed the cap on H1-B's to be increased as they couldn't find skilled workers in the US to fill the positions. At a time of layoffs, in the situation I described, that would obviously not be true any more.
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Informative)
Microsoft H1B visa employees are on the same payscale and benefits program as US employees. Just keep in mind when you're arguing about/against/for H1B visas, that Microsoft is one of the (seemingly few) companies that does not abuse the privilege-- they genuinely need qualified people from overseas.
Re:Republican? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Republican? (Score:4, Insightful)
Having friends (and relatives) in both sides of the issue, I really sympathize with you and by no way deny this is actually happening. This H-1B fever never should be started at all, and actually damaged a lot of american works (blame the government of course.) My point is that now you/companies can't treat non-americans like disposable resources as a lot of people is advocating here... you know, that kind of treatment is what originally started this whole issue against locals.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're talking about a United States Senator getting Microsoft to do something. Like or not, if he doesn't put US citizens first, he won't remain a Senator past the next election cycle.
Not to mention, if someone has to lose their jobs, which one is better for the country as a whole? The one making $100k a year (and being taxed at that level, plus spending at that level) who when he loses his job will collect unemployment here and possibly have his home foreclosed here, or the guy making $50k a year, who whe
Gates disagrees (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Republicans are typically pro-American (Score:4, Insightful)
Outsourcing was BIG under the Clinton administration.
You are right about Clinton. The jury is still out on Obama.
Let's remember that Clinton was THE poster boy for the Democratic Leadership Council, the corporate propaganda outlet of the Democratic Party. This group is largely responsible for there being no real difference between parties when it comes corporate influence on policy and legislation. They wanted to get a piece of the corporate gravy train and they sold their souls to get it.
The future? Well, did you discern any difference between the number of private corporate parties given at the Democratic versus Republican conventions? I didn't. Do we think that $175 million of largely corporate money for the inauguration will be free? Regardless of much integrity Obama may have, it is hard to ignore that kind of pressure. Telecom immunity, anyone?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"Pro-American"? What is that even supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that all Democrats are anti-American and enter politics with the sworn goal of destroying the USA?
It's not a question of being for or against America or Americans. Both sides want America to be a strong and prosperous nation. The difference is in how they think that will be achieved. Do you focus on the very real needs of individual Americans, with the possible consequence of lengthening the economic troubles -- or do you try to str
Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
Dey tuk our jerbs!
Re:Hey! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah if they accept giving them the right to work in the country then why shouldn't they work at the same merits as everyone else? I'd assume Microsoft knows better which people they need and want and which they can get rid of than this guy..
Re:Hey! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No. it is time companies look at what is best for society not just their bottom line. You and I are not allowed to do just what is best for ourselves, we cannot steal even when needed, we cannot race down the road in an effort to save a job. Companies must somehow become a functioning member of society, their existence cannot be governed solely by the drive to make more profit. Companies cannot just benefit from the idea they are entities in our society they also must learn to live with us. Just because it
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Cause aside from despotic tyranny - that is about the only system where a government official can order around a business he/she does not own.
People should be free, not inanimate entities.
But I'll compromise. If they give up their special favors from the government, I'll support the government removing extra responsibilities:
Re:Hey! (Score:4, Informative)
I have no idea if the visas stop working if one lose ones job and if one have to leave and become the responsibility of the country you came from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B#An_H-1B_worker_faces_additional_obstacles_at_his.2Fher_workplace [wikipedia.org]
Any H-1B worker essentially has the following weakness:
his ability to remain in U.S. is directly linked to his current job.
H-1B holders can change jobs only with difficulty. In some cases, the holders of H-1B visas find their employers have not completely accurately represented the terms of employment; they find themselves in a foreign land with only a limited understanding of the legal system.
H-1B workers can be disciplined at any time, by being laid off: the worker then has to leave U.S. within 10 days (and even these 10 days are allowed only at USCIS's discretion, no days are actually guaranteed by law).
The employer has, however, the legal obligation to pay for the return transportation of the laid-off worker.
The worker can only avoid leaving the country by finding another employer that is willing to sponsor for H-1B, often impossible in the short amount of time available.
If unhappy with the workplace, a U.S. citizen or green card holder can simply quit his or her job, whereas a H-1B's right to remain in the U.S. is tied to the job.
awesome (Score:5, Insightful)
What's really going to be awesome is when Microsoft, IBM, et al go to Congress for their annual request for increased H1B visas after laying off thousands of American workers.
They will not (Score:5, Insightful)
...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Informative)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Informative)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Informative)
They don't just have to find a new job.
They have to find an employer who is willing and able to sponsor them for either an H1B or a green card.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Insightful)
In Denmark we have a fixed grace period, however foreign workers do have a hard time getting a job since there is a minimum required pay for keeping the green card (which in effect puts the foreign worker in the top 50% payment), this severely reduces the gain for companies when hiring foreigners.
On a side note, I thought the US was build on people coming from bad situations to live the American dream, you guys sure have changed your mindset lately.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Interesting)
On a side note, I thought the US was build on people coming from bad situations to live the American dream, you guys sure have changed your mindset lately.
If that was the case, there wouldn't be any complaints, because then they wouldn't be getting paid less. It's the fact that they're only temp workers that get paid up to 23 percent less [ddj.com] than Americans in the same positions that cheeses people off. Level playing field--fine. Unfair playing field where management lies about not being able to find qualified personnel and then turns around and pays substantially lower salaries--not good.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Informative)
On a side note, I thought the US was build on people coming from bad situations to live the American dream, you guys sure have changed your mindset lately.
If that was the case, there wouldn't be any complaints, because then they wouldn't be getting paid less. It's the fact that they're only temp workers that get paid up to 23 percent less [ddj.com] than Americans in the same positions that cheeses people off. Level playing field--fine. Unfair playing field where management lies about not being able to find qualified personnel and then turns around and pays substantially lower salaries--not good.
And, to continue, the "lower pay" part is illegal. I have actually looked into it (from a business standpoint) before, and, as a business owner, I have to basically sign an affidavit that I will pay the same rate to the foreign worker as a similarly qualified US worker, and I have to swear that I can't find anyone in the US to fill the job.
My wife came over on an H1A originally as a nurse, and it was the same story. The nursing home was getting Filipino nurses to come over so they could pay them shit wages that Americans wouldn't even consider. The Filipinos also put up with *anything* because they could be sent back to the Philippines with a signature from the director.
I have a friend who's in the same shitty position now as a computer programmer - the company illegally didn't pay him for 8 months while he was "benched", but he won't sue them because he wants to be in the US so bad. They owe him tens of thousands of dollars. He ended up finding the current contract that he's working by himself, but still is working through the agency that dicked him over. Looking them up on the internet, he's not the only one they've done this to.
Anyway, it's a mess, but if the US simply enforced the law, particularly the "equal pay" part, the problem would go away.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
...I have to basically sign an affidavit that I will pay the same rate to the foreign worker as a similarly qualified US worker, and I have to swear that I can't find anyone in the US to fill the job.
Employers who abuse the H1B system [slashdot.org] should be heavily fined (revenue going to H1B employee backpay and unemployment compensation for displaced citizens.) HR managers who authorized the abuse should find themselves out of a job, if not in jail. We can turn a blind eye to such abuse during boom times but now that the economy is damaged, the blame should not pass on to the abused foreign worker. Blame lies squarely with the abusive company. H1B is designed to backfill specialized skills. Two decades in th
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Informative)
actually, laid off h1b workers are allowed a 2 month "grace" period to either find a new job or leave the country
That is completely and utterly untrue. You have a 10 day period to leave the country - if you do not have another visa in process with the USCIS BEFORE YOU GET LAID OFF you are considered to be "out of status" after those 10 days and a USCIS examiner is likely to refuse you another visa if you apply for a new job without leaving the country. Being out of status is bad because it will count against you if you ever decide to get another visa or apply for a green card - even ONE day can result in a refusal.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember: the number of jobs is not fixed. A million unemployed but well-educated nerds will probably lead to the next google, Apple or whatever. If you throw these people out of the country, those companies and their jobs are just created elsewhere.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Funny, thousands of highly skilled nerds lost their jobs in 2001, yet...the next Google did not form. Neither did the next Apple. The unemployed nerds just found new employment.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Insightful)
You are wrong...
Social networks...
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Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Interesting)
These H1B holders are well-educated.
Except for the ones that lied about their education and experience: http://www.businessweek.com/print/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm [businessweek.com]
When I worked for FNMA I wondered how most of my H1 coworkers had no previous knowledge of computers, and why even though they supposedly had degrees in EE they had no knowledge of any basic principles of that field. They were very popular with management because they always said yes, and were continually afraid of 'causing problems'. The ones I talked to also made 20-30% less than I did.
Certainly not the case everywhere, but I'd say H1B1 visa holder = undereducated indentured servant in far too many places.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They didn't fire engineers en masse. HR, marketing, lawyers can be fired and engineers hired without any inconsistency.
Also, you COMPLETELY fail to see the GPs point. Those 5 million educated americans are still going to be 5 million educated americans. But the many educated non-americans in america are no longer going to be in america, reducing your odds in the lottery of success.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Insightful)
So you're kicking out talented and resourceful people so that you can keep some fat lazy Americans in work?
Yes, that sounds like the best way possible to prepare for bouncing back after the recession.
Oh... I guess stereotyping never works well, yet the H1B are mainly high-skilled workers. Sending them back home only gives their home country, or what ever country they decide to relocate to, an invaluable resource.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, since the H1B program is a government program, then they have to hold to the law of the land which assumes that all of the employees are in fact equal (actual work performance not withstanding) which means that the company must justify laying off employees who were filling a job that they are now requesting a H1B visa for.
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:5, Insightful)
There's so much wrong with your characterization of the issue that it's hard to figure out where to start...
H1B workers can be paid significantly less than native workers. If you're carrying $100k in student loans from having been educated in America, and the H1B program brings in someone who can afford to work for $30k/year, you're screwed. Being undercut by inexpensively educated foreign workers makes one neither fat nor lazy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit. If you're working for "less than you are worth" you can find another job. If you can't, then by definition you're working for exactly (or more than) you are worth.
When some whiny bitch H1B IT worker goes and watches a garbage man, or a construction worker, or a dude who works in 115 degree weather fixing roads and then legitimately claims that he's "worth" more than he can negotiate out of willing employers, uhh.. well, I'll know he's lying.
People working H1B's are better off than the majority of
Re: (Score:2, Redundant)
Well, I guess we'll now see what H1Bs are really used for. IIRC, the idea behind those Visa was to hire abroad when you can't find qualified workers at home. It would be logic to fire H1B holders and retain the local workers if this was really the basis for hiring those people. Hell, it would be anything but illogical to force companies to fire H1B holders if there are US people looking for jobs and they qualify for the jobs the H1B holders have.
I guess we'll now see whether it really was so impossible to f
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability [wikipedia.org]
Get rid of this totally unwarranted governemnt interference in the market now!
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The laid off personnel was good enough to be hired by MS, meaning that they have the necessary qualifications. H1-B allows foreign workers to work only if there are not enough qualified US citizens for the same positions.
If MS keeps H1Bs and fires Americans that would be not only illegal but unethical too. After all MS would be nowhere if the predecessors of US citizens they fire did not struggle to build this country. There are limits to open
immigration policies!
PS: I am a foreign student, soon to graduat
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure. As long as skilled WHITE construction workers aren't allowed any of those jobs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opxuUj6vFa4
Re:...because H1Bs are forms, not people (Score:4, Informative)
I can understand that the well-being of american workers is more important than that of visa-holders to an elected politician. However, the impact of losing the job is much higher for H1Bs, as they usually have to leave the country (within 1 week I think). Considering the fact that these are humans, too, maybe it would be acceptable to lessen these restrictions somewhat, i. e. allow these people to stay in the country for a year if they have the financial means.
The entire H-1B process is reliant on the fact that there are people who have more rights (in this case, American citizens) and people with fewer rights (in this case, non-citizens of the USA). The American citizens have for whatever reasons the right to get jobs ahead of the others. Microsoft is allowed to hire non-citizens if they can prove that American citizens can't fill all the needed positions. Microsoft _wants_ to hire non-citizens because they have fewer rights, so they are willing to work for less money. If these people coming into the USA through H-1B didn't have fewer rights, they wouldn't be willing to work for less money, and Microsoft wouldn't want to hire them.
Whether the situation is fair or unfair is surely worth a discussion, but with H-1B you are only allowed into the USA because Microsoft couldn't find Americans to fill the job. Clearly if Microsoft fires American citizens, then that argument would be moot.
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Of course there are lots of people in the world that would love to legally work in the US even temporarily . The H1Bs are among the luckiest ones.
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This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
I was laid off from my programming job and I have been looking for a job for a year now, and I keep getting passed on. I've even lowered my wage expectations and my references, former managers and coworkers, have a lot of good things to say about me. I am constantly applying through newspapers, monster.com, dice.com, etc. Why is a H1-B holder getting precedence over me? And, why are these companies laying off Americans in favor of keeping the H1-Bs? We have a problem, Houston.
Re:This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you actually thought about WHY you are not getting hired? And fixing those issues?
My wife is a manager and I get to see the other side of things. They don't explicitly go out with the notion, "oh let's not hire X, but hire Y."
They are just thankful that they can get anybody with skills.
Right now there is a REALLY big problem, and a friend of mine says it best.
"Those that you want to hire are not hirable, but those that are hirable you don't want."
He said this because he noticed that there are many who calls themselves programmers, but are 2000 leftovers who got into it because you could make "lots and lots" of money. Hiring a programmer that you want to keep is these days very difficult.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Bullshit.
"Those you want to hire" for a skilled job, have responsibilities (family, mortgage, student loans, etc) that mean they can't work for the shit wages that you can pay to an H1-B holder.
Both the Republicans and Democrats are to blame for this, by the way. Democrats got us into the whole "free trade" bullshit (GATT/WTO/NAFTA/etc) that made it far cheaper for businesses to relocate overseas AND made it easier for big "multinational" corporations to snap up US companies. Republicans pushed economic pol
Stupid argument (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is Major Tom to ground control. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh Bullshit! I own a small engineering firm and have interviewed over 40 people in the past 12 months. Made offers to about five, and hired three. Still have about five unfilled positions.
We contemplated hiring a few H1Bs, because those were the only people that responded to us through Monster (well, other than recruiters wanting 30% first year salary). Some were actually citizens or Canadians, but all of the same ilk-- will work for anything, but difficult to divine what skills they really had.
As for the 87% of remaining candidates, they were awful. Send a freaking thank-you letter! Research the company in advance! Understand what they do and how you think you might fit in.
As for the Entitlement Generation-- you better get over it quick. Hoping to make 10% more starting than last year's graduates isn't a very logical strategy. Figure out what you need to make starting to survive, and work up from there. If you are as good as you think you are then you will get rewarded in time... and you will gain valuable experience.
As for firing H1Bs first, that is just the dumbest, most protectionist idea ever. You need to keep the people with the best value when you are cutting back, independent of national origin. Since many H1Bs are underpaid, they do have an advantage on the denominator but not necessarily on the numerator.
Granting new H1Bs now is pretty stupid politically, but doesn't make much of a difference in the real world. Deny them to companies that are laying people off or to the independent contractor job shops, but keep the only viable immigration option for talented people that actually want to move here open!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It is worth pointing out that the real problem is not really the democrats or the republicans but with the system that has allowed anyone with deep enough pockets to make government do whatever they want.
The NAFTA agreement was not really aimed at helping any of the people in the three participating countries, NAFTA was always designed to help the big corporations reduce their cost of operations. At the same time, NAFTA contained enough provisions that it undid a number of constitutional guarantees and lo
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"Those that you want to hire are not hirable, but those that are hirable you don't want."
Having a hard time wrapping my head around this one.
Interesting to see the manager mind at work here though. Wouldn't it make sense to hire the person with the correct skillset? You know - like actually read resumes, and talk to people and make decisions based on that?
I send my resume off to apply for various jobs, but I highly doubt anyone even reads it. They probably just look at how well I filled out the application,
What a joke (Score:2, Interesting)
I think it will help (Score:3, Funny)
What's the point? (Score:2, Interesting)
H1Bs are wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
The "guest worker" program is nothing more than a gift to large corporations to get cheap labor that is almost an "indentured servant."
Seriously, what employer wouldn't want to be in the position to employ reasonably killed labor that *HAS* to work to to say in the country. They are a lot easier to intimidate. They can't raise labor issues for fear of having to leave the country.
H1Bs come to the US. Work for less than the prevailing wage. Are not "citizens" and do not have the same rights. Can be easily intimidated: "Don't want to work on the week-end without pay? Your fired, now go back to your own country."
Then if they lose their jobs, not only do they have to leave, but they have to pay to leave. Lose their last month's security deposit on their apartment because they have to break the lease.
H1Bs reduce the prevailing wage, exploit foreigners, and are generally bad policy for middle class.
As for Microsoft, or any employer, *all* H1Bs should be dispensed with *before* any american gets laid off.
Re:H1Bs are wrong (Score:4, Funny)
Seriously, what employer wouldn't want to be in the position to employ reasonably killed labor that *HAS* to work...
In my experience the dead do not work whether they need to or not.
Re:H1Bs are wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Being an H1-B that works for a Fortune 500 non-IT company, I have to second your comment. I get paid on par with my colleagues and even right now with our business being severely affected, I have not faced a single incident of intimidation tactics to make me work harder.
From all the comments I have read on /. when H1-B related articles come up, it seems like the IT industry in particular has problems with H1Bs being hired at lower wages and being underqualified. If I recall correctly, companies like Tata
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, that will teach them!!! Err.. wait, who are we punishing again? The employers who will merely outsource the whole division or to the families of those H1-Bs who just got laid off. Or do we care?
The concept of a global workforce is not one that goes away as the global economic tail winds shift. Regardless of whether politicians all of a sudden grow a conscience or not.
I am on an H1-B. I have been here for the last 9 years, and though I have seen poverty that is far more dire than that around me currentl
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That assumes that all workers are seamlessly interchangeable. Let's suppose you have 5,000 H1Bs doing complicated work on the kernel of Windows 7. Then you have 5,000 Americans inventing catchphrases for the talking paperclip. If MS decide to cut costs my abolishing the paperclip division, they can't move those workers over to the H1B work because they're just not qualified for it.
They didn't want to hire American's in the first p (Score:5, Informative)
Some of these companies didn't want to hire Americans in the first place according the Programmer's Guild.
Here's a video showing Immigration Attorney's explaining what companies need to do to get around the laws and hire more H1-Bs.
Basically, create impossible job descriptions and then go oversees since no American would qualify.
I've worked with and managed a few H1B programmers. Some where very talented. Some were hired just because they were cheap. They were no better than any random American college grad. They were just cheaper.
Both the American and foreign born developers worked hard and there were good and bad in both. It all boils down to money.
Most of these companies depend on American consumers to survive, but if everyone decides American workers are too expensive to hire, they're not going to have American consumers to buy their products and services.
Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=channel_page [youtube.com]
Be careful what you wish for. (Score:4, Interesting)
I think bringing in foreign tech workers is fine. The problem is sending them back home.
By the logic that says that bringing foreign tech workers into the US is bad for US tech workers, a software engineer would be better off looking for a job in Flint, Michigan than San Jose, California, because there are so many software engineers in San Jose. The problem with this reasoning is that the number of software engineers in San Jose attracts companies there, and those companies create jobs. Having other engineers around means you get a smaller proportion slice of a much, much larger pie. And the very best engineers don't just consume jobs, the create new industries.
The real fault with the H1B program is that it is structured in a way that encourages companies to offshore jobs. You bring a cohort of junior engineers in from India, have them gain experience in your field and product, then you kick them back to Banagalore, a ready made outsourcing team. Making employers shed H1Bs will only accelerate the loss of US jobs, giving US workers a larger proportion of a much, much smaller pie.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The real fault with the H1B program is that it is structured in a way that encourages companies to offshore jobs.
No, the real fault with the H1B program is that it is nothing more than a scam to undercut the market rate for specialized skills and to depress all salaries by keeping guest workers beholden to their sponsoring corporation.
Instead of keeping those skilled workers under the gun of deportation, give them green cards, put them on the road to citizenship, and that solves all problems. They are able
How about... (Score:5, Insightful)
...keeping those people that are the most competent?
Makes more sense than keeping incompetent lazy Americans or incompetent lazy foreigners.
Oh well... why do I expect business decisions of a big company to make sense?
Preferential Economics (Score:5, Insightful)
You constantly hear about free market economics, capitalism, the global economy, etc... from America, but what it really boils down to as always is supporting the above ideals when it's good for America, and then moving them to the side when things get tough. It's the age old "America does what is best for America" mantra.
Microsoft is going to hire and fire the best worker for the job, according to their qualifications; nationality and citizenship should be entirely irrelevant. Not only does this make sense ethically, it makes sense economically (from a corporate perspective). Why hire an inferior worker who holds citizenship when I can hire 'x' H-1B worker who is superior (and, make more money as a result)? Making money is what drives companies.
When you're willing to advocate preferential treatment for an American citizen not because they are better equipped to do the job but purely because they are an American, you're throwing away your ideals of free-markets and global economics. Coming from a republican I find this especially amusing, as it tends to be the republicans that are the strongest advocates of pure-free market economics.
This is potentially a great move from a PR perspective. Most Americans aren't going to call someone out for taking a position that strengthens their ability to gain employment, but from an ideological perspective, it's flimsy at best.
Disclaimer: America isn't the only country that does this kind of stuff, but as arguably the most vocal advocate of the above economic philosophies, it's probably the most hypocritical for doing so.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Background: I am an American. I have usually voted Republican but not always. I am a Senior Programmer/Analyst by title, a development team lead by actual assigned task, at a Fortune 500 company.
Our company has a mandate to bring in technical consultants people from Patni or HCL. There is no interest in the best and the brightest, or the best for the job; they want the cheap body count. Of the three interviews of Patni folks we've had, two were great and the third couldn't tell me what "static" meant as a C
Good luck with that (Score:4, Informative)
Obama has stated that he wants to RAISE the H-1B cap.
I was an H1B worker at Microsoft (Score:3, Informative)
I worked at Microsoft in Redmond with H1B work status for four years. Last year I left MS because I found job opportunity that was better for my family. (This new job happened to be back in my country.)
I can't comment about the overall H1B program in the US, or the overall US labour market, or even on any new changes at MS over the past year, but I do definitely know about the experiences of H1B employees in the developer and testing roles at MS.
I (and all other non-US-citizen employees) were treated exactly the same as every other employee. We had the same job descriptions and responsibilities as other employees and the same opportunities for promotion. We were integrated in teams that included US citizens, other H1B-status workers, and people with other immigration statuses. We were certainly paid the same as any other employee with a similar job and similar experience.
I also know that Microsoft has very high hiring standards for developer and tester roles. I was not in a management/lead position, but I occasionally reviewed resumes and took part in interviewing applicants. Interviews were tough all-day affairs, including questions that required the use of logic, math, programming, and testing methodologies. The point wasn't to see if the applicant could regurgitate the knowledge, but to view his or her thinking process, creativity, and problem solving abilities as they tried to come up with a solution, and handle complications or restrictions that the interviewer throws at the candidate after they come up with an initial solution.
During the time I was there, my group and most others were always trying to hire more people. The major bottleneck was waiting to get any resumes for candidates that seemed worth interviewing. Most interviews ended with frustration that the candidate wasn't up to standards. Just because you applied to MS and didn't get a job or even an interview is not proof that Microsoft didn't need to look outside the US to find candidates up to their standards.
So, you might have valid criticisms about the quality of Microsoft software, but MS really does have very high standards for their employees, and employees with H1B status are treated the same as any other full-time employee there.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft might be allowed to layoff who ever they want to, but on the same token the government is able to deny H1B applications from Microsoft as well.