The Case For Working With Your Hands 386
theodp writes "At a time when the question of what a good job looks like is wide open, a book excerpt in the NY Times magazine says it's time to take a fresh look at the trades. High-school shop-class programs were dismantled in the '90s as educators prepared students to become 'knowledge workers' in a pure information economy. Was this a huge mistake? A gifted young person who chooses to become a mechanic instead of accumulating academic credentials is now viewed as eccentric, if not self-destructive, complains Matthew Crawford, who took his University of Chicago PhD and opened a motorcycle repair shop. Princeton economist Alan Blinder argues that the crucial distinction in the emerging labor market is not between those with more or less education, but between those whose services can be delivered over a wire and those who must do their work in person or on site. The latter will find their livelihoods more secure against outsourcing to distant countries. As Blinder puts it, 'You can't hammer a nail over the Internet' (never say never). Guess we all should have paid more attention to Nicholas Negroponte's landmark-in-retrospect Being Digital (ironically, no Kindle version)."
IAAC (Score:5, Interesting)
I am a chemistry graduate and I've always said that for a high science, chemistry is very blue-collar. Let's look at the facts:
We are on our feet all day and work with our hands.
Most people I know in the field have burns, scars, or callouses.
We listen to Radio 1 all day.
'course, I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it.
Re:IAAC (Score:5, Funny)
I am a chemistry graduate and I've always said that for a high science, chemistry is very blue-collar. Let's look at the facts:
You wash your hands before going to the toilet.
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Re:IAAC (Score:5, Funny)
Hahahaha, it's so true. When I was an undergraduate we joked about that, until I walked into one of the bathrooms. A respected professor was washing his hands, then dried them and went up to the urinal next to me.
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Re:IAAC (Score:5, Informative)
While some people may be missing the 'elephant in the room', you sir, have missed the 'point of the article'.
Unfortunately, half the summary talked about job security giving a false impression. Job security was only a small part of the article, and in that regard, the jobs that were referenced were specialized, intellectual jobs. You will have 'grunt' workers in every profession. You can take anyone off the street and train them in a week for those positions. It could be construction work just as it could be data entry or answering phones.
The people he references in the article are experienced craftsmen who make difficult analysis and decisions based on subtle real world problems. Yet there is a stigma attached to those who do that while working on concrete, real world problems (eg: mechanics) when there is no such stigma on those who do exactly the same thing on less tangible problems (eg: IT professionals).
The main bulk of the article focuses on this stigma, but also covers a wide range including satisfaction by being able to see the direct effects of your labor.
Re:IAAC (Score:4, Interesting)
Skilled trades are not paid peanuts, and are not easily replaced by unskilled immigrants.
Some kids just are not cut out for a life in an office. Some of these kids are very bright, but an office job just isn't going to work as there is no way they are going to make it through an acedemic highschool program, much less four years of university. Kids that have an apptitude for skilled trades should have the option of pursuing a trade starting in highschool. You'll have happier, more productive kids, and you'll have kids that grow up to have careers they enjoy that pay pretty well.
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No, in those disciplines the guy with the degree who draw the plans, and the guy in the hard hat who builds it, aren't the same person. I do a few hours of bookwork a day, and the rest is practical.
If I had to start over... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Aren't those the same homes in foreclosure right now? It seems like construction is more cyclical than other industries. Auto mechanics don't seem to have booms and busts like that.
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Yes, you raise a critical point.
Maybe we look down on the "grease monkey" at the Toyota dealership who comes out from the back, hands so dirty they'll never come clean, and tells us we need to spend one million dollars for what sounds like a minor problem to anyone who knows something about engines. But, take that same guy, give him some basic business classes (if he even needs them--a lot of people don't), and put his name on the sign over the garage. Now he's not a "grease monkey," he's a small business
Re:If I had to start over... (Score:5, Funny)
Home econ even... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, with an undergrad degree in CS, and a masters in EE, and just about to get an MBA... I still am a shit cook. That's right, I am a horrible cook. I know some of you out there are probably excellent cooks, but I also think there are a LOT of us who think we are really smart, but still can barely make macaroni and cheese, fish sticks, or grill some chicken properly.
Why has my entire educational experience skipped out on something so basic. Yes, it may seem that it is basic and a common activity that we should "just know how", but really.. sometimes you just need instruction on vital things that you wouldn't otherwise grasp. (such as hygene, or balancing your bank accounts, or.. maybe social etiquite or public speaking)
They make us great engineers, but they completely skip over the parts of how to be good, well rounded human beings.
Re:Home econ even... (Score:5, Interesting)
My mum once gave me a book called "Cooking for Blokes" as a joke but it's probably one of the best presents I've ever had. It takes you through the basics from boiling an egg upwards to making various types of cuisine such as chilli, curry, Italian and Thai. I don't know how available it is in the US but I'm sure there's a "Cooking for Dudes" or somesuch available there. Learn how - it's very therapeutic, not to mention healthier.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Very true (Score:5, Insightful)
A skilled trade is an excellent way to make a good living; and is a way to do what you enjoy. cars need to be repaired, plumbing fixed, houses built and repaired. Those skills are both valuable and not easily replicated if you do quality work.
Of course, many trades require a pretty solid eduction as well. Mechanics once needed mechanical aptitude and the ability to work well with their hands; today it requires that plus an understanding of computers and advanced electronics / electrical theory.
Unfortunately, people tend to look down as anything not requiring a college education as lesser work.
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Let them look down but I'm hauling in 50 grand a year fixing bicycles. And my buddy is grabing a good 65 grand mowning lawns. We both started our life long business when we where 13 and 15 years old.
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And I have taken my BSME and some how transformed myself into a roofing consultant that pulls down 60K/yr. borderline working with my hands but a good feeling at the end of the day.
Re:Very true (Score:5, Interesting)
Want to know what the sad part about this is...
Let's say that you started making this about 18. This means by the time somebody who gets a degree hits the workplace and makes the same amount they are about 26. And they have debts to pay off, etc. So let's say around 30 they are pulling in the money.
If we do the math, with your 12 years you made an entire 600K! And if you were conservative and did not spend too much you could still have half of it.
Yes it is sad people look down on trades...
My brother went to German trade school (Industrial Mechanic). Me on the other hand I had two left hands as a tradesman. I was always dropping my tools. My strength was thinking, and oddly enough finance and financial products.
Though due to my German upbringing was never allowed to pursue it since it was not "real".
Re:Very true (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Very true (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately, people tend to look down as anything not requiring a college education as lesser work.
I wonder if some of these people are the same people that are complaining that foreigners are coming over taking "American Jobs". Jobs that the educational system regards as inferior and that have a low social status. While perhaps not all jobs are equal; at least those providing maintenance of vital systems and vehicles should be provided with a serious educational alternative and not be treated like they are worth less than those with an academic degree. Being an electrician, for instance, might not be as "intellectually challenging", in the eyes of some, as taking a degree; but we need good electricians as much, or more, than your average university graduate.
Looking down at the 'skilled trades' (Score:2)
Ya, I agree a lot of people do consider it 'mineral uneducated work', at least until they need their roof fixed or their plumbing stops working and they cant figure it out on their own..
Of course back when i was in school, the 'computer techs' down the hall from our engineering classes were considered a 'trade' as well, to be lumped in with the HVAC guys and made fun of.. ( not that i did, but far too many so called "educated" engineers did )
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I can think all day about how the electrical in my house works, and understand the theory behind it. But can I wire my house so that everything works, and I don't burn it down? Maybe, but it is in my interest to have an electrician look at it to make sure. Not necessarily an electrical engineer.
My father is an electrical engineer, and I am (among other things) a licensed electrician. The stories my mother has about him trying to do his own electrical work are hilarious ("how hard can it be? It's a simple AC circuit!")
Re:Very true (Score:5, Interesting)
today it requires that plus an understanding of computers and advanced electronics / electrical theory.
My first thought reading your post was about BMW mechanics. They are well educated and well paid. The job requires a surprising depth of knowledge.
If I was going to start over, I'd probably pick a trade fixing specialized industrial machines. It's knowledge that can easily be retrained in a number of fields and as more industries move to more automation, job security is not a problem. You don't see the copier repairman out of work very often.
Mining machinery, oil platform systems, medical devices, robotics repair...any of those would offer opportunities to travel to exotic places and make a lot of money.
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Speaking of copy repair people:
When I attended ITT (go ahead, laugh all you want), the instructors would talk about which jobs used to be the bottom barrel jobs in their day. In their day is was the guys who repaired copier machines. Then they mentioned these days it's not like that anymore. You need to have an in depth mechanical and electrical understanding of how it works. Copying machines are a highly specialized computer with a lot of mechanical parts.
Re:Very true (Score:4, Interesting)
You don't see the copier repairman out of work very often.
Mining machinery, oil platform systems, medical devices, robotics repair...any of those would offer opportunities to travel to exotic places and make a lot of money.
Wrong. I spent over ten years as a copier repairman. I then made the mistake of gong back to colege and finishing my BA. Th eresult is that I have never made as much as I made as a copier repairman and have spent over half of my time after completing college unemployed. I am now stuck in the school grind, working on my MBA in hopes that it wil help lead to a job.
I have to say tha I liked working on copiers. I like working with my hands and I like machines. I disliked two things. The first was my knees were giving trouble (if you watch a copier thech, you will see that there is a lot of up and down). The second, and the big one, I was tired of the way I was treated. The cuustmers, the companies, and people who just know what you do all treat techs like idiots who are not capaible of doing "anything more" in their life. The subtule, and not so subtule, asumptions and associated treatment eventualy chased me out of the industury.
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Of my 8 or so high school friends who I still keep in contact with who graduated between about 10 to 12 years ago: six of us went to school and got our degrees, one went into the airforce, one became a mechanic. Guess which two own their own their own home while which 6 are still puttering around still trying to figure out what they want to do or trying to finish school.
Sure, had some of them really gone after it and known just what they wanted to do in school they could have been making more than any of us
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When you think about it, human beings are designed as generalists anyway. I know there aren't many physical things/processes you could present me with that I couldn't figure
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I completely agree. I feel that part of the problem is with programs like no child left behind and what not that basically says that all students have the capacity to go to college. This is something that I feel is flawed near completely. Some people are just better suited to working with their hands and there is nothing wrong with that.
These jobs are called trades for a reason. I personally feel that trade work is a great way to make a living or assist others. "Tell you what, I will fix your car if yo
Err... what? (Score:5, Insightful)
"the latter will find their livelihoods more secure against outsourcing to distant countries."
No, no they won't. Sure it's not as easy to push manual labor elsewhere - that doesn't mean it can't happen: Look at the engineering and textiles industries in Britain. Sure, there were lots of them, and their staff did work "in person and on site" - but that didn't stop the industry being screwed over by workhouses in distant countries that could produce the goods for cheaper. While the British equivalents may well have 'survived' to some extent, the shops and companies wanting the goods produced weren't willing to pay the cash to produce in Britain, and bought their goods elsewhere (Chinese textile mills, for example). Voila: your job is gone, whether you're manual labor or working via a wire.
Re:Err... what? (Score:5, Informative)
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'...you have a clogged toilet. You aren't going to call some guy from China who will fly out and meet you there.'
The way things are going with cheaply made crap ;^), I expect that soon they'll ship a new toilet from China by air and you swap it for the clogged one and ship the clogged one back! :)
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And who's unmounting and mounting the toilet? (Which by the way is more work than simply unclogging it.)
Oh, and unclogging is an easy job. You need two things: Industrial strength toilet unclogger, and one of those long "wires" that you can put into the toilet and twist, to drill trough it.
But you *really* have to be cautious with the unclogging acid, because it burns trough everything. Toilet seats, pants, flesh, carpet, etc.
Also do not store it anywhere, where anything else is. Because I know from own exp
Re:Err... what? (Score:4, Funny)
And who's unmounting and mounting the toilet?
sudo umount /mnt/bathroom/toilet /dev/plumbing/toilet1 /mnt/bathroom/toilet
sudo modprobe -r american_standard
sudo modprobe kohler
sudo mount
don't forget to sync (3).
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In IL at least you need to be state licensed to be a plumber, which requires time in apprenticeship, etc. You can't just ship in a bunch of workers from India, hand them tools and call them plumbers. God forbid you manage to get people here, sponsor them through apprenticeship, get them licensed, etc., and then they look at the union laborers and realize they can make a TON more. Then the plan goes to shit.
By comparison they can ship someone in to do my IT work, no problem. There are no barriers to entr
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Shoemakers and tailors are virtually non-existent in the US - when clothes and shoes are worn out we simply replace them with something new. Heck, we replace them with something new way before that.
Electronics: same thing. Who is spending money to have their 8 year old tv repaired when it starts to smoke. Who has an 8 year old TV?
I can imag
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While i agree, consumer electronics is getting to the point you don't repair them, its cheaper t just buy a new one instead of pay someone an hourly fee close to 75% of the new shiny more powerful machine. When was the last time you had a TV repaired? Or a cell phone ( which also used to be stupid priced not long ago )
While talking about businesses, in theory the box lasts until its depreciated, and when it breaks after that its dumpster food.
Sure a few "repair careers" will be left, but 90% will be washed
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Those jobs were not outsourced abroad, but look at what happened. A lot of local tech jobs were deemed not to be "core business" and got outsourced to firms specialised in such services. As a computer or software guy, suddenly you find yourself going from being an employee valued for your individual contribution whi
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'How do you outsource the electrical and plumbing of a building project in your city to India? Local hands on work needs to be done locally.'
Waldoes [wikipedia.org]
H-1B visa (Score:3, Funny)
How do you outsource the electrical and plumbing of a building project in your city to India?
HTH.
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I think they mean things like fitting windows, plumbing or car repair, where the job cannot be outsourced at all. Not factory work which was the first to disappear to the Far East.
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The problem is that you're confusing "goods vs. services" with "in-person services vs. potentially-distant services". You can outsource production of goods (like textiles), and you can outsource information services (like programming), but you can't outsource "in-person" services (like plumbing).
Experience (Score:4, Funny)
Now if I can just find my way to put all of this together like Steve Jobs did with his background, I'll be good to go.
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Now if I can just find my way to put all of this together like Steve Jobs did with his background, I'll be good to go.
You need a brilliant patsy whose work you can take credit for.
There's the question of IQ (Score:5, Insightful)
No one want to discuss the fact that "average intelligence" means that half the people are at and below average intelligence. The idea that everyone must graduate from high school and go on to college is the root of the problem.
A simple example......it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?
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They make happy meals now. There is still work for that segment of our population.
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They make happy meals now. There is still work for that segment of our population.
That is being outsourced also.
The job of taking orders at the drive-through could soon be outsourced.
Jack in the Box Inc. has been testing a program in some Charlotte-area restaurants that outsources order-taking to a call center elsewhere.
Company spokeswoman Kathleen Anthony said the technology is intended to improve speed, accuracy and service. The San Diego-based restaurant chain hopes the process will free up on-site employees to process orders, accept payment and address other needs.
Anthony said the orders are routed to a Texas call center operated by Bronco Communications, and she said some orders may be routed outside the country.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/18562683/detail.html [wsoctv.com]
Re:There's the question of IQ (Score:4, Informative)
A simple example......it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?
We're going to have to find a way for people to Not Work. Sooner or later nobody is going to have to. Eventually a robot will make a better burger than a person can make, et cetera. We have two possible futures ahead of us, the one where we're put into slavery and forced to work just to keep us busy, and the future where we find some new paradigm (sorry) in which it's not necessary for people to work all the time, or there are new things for them to work on.
Just think about what happens when all the cars go electric... automotive repair will be practically restricted to body, paint, and suspension work. What are all the people who fix cars now going to do? Especially since body and paint work are becoming niche applications over time; some of the newest designs for vehicles use space-frame engineering with plastic body panels and molded colors.
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People have been saying this since at least the industrial revolution, maybe longer. It was a load of bullshit back then. It is a load of bullshit today. If there's one trait that identifies Western culture more than any other, it's a misguided sense of entitlement. The idea that you (or your community) deserve something from soc
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You think an electric drive train will never break down?
The drive train should be restricted to CV axles, or at most a differential and a two or three-speed sequential manual. Repair at the common shop level is restricted to replacement with rebuilt units; while it is definitely possible to do that kind of labor in the common auto shop it is typically not cost-effective. Transmissions in particular are almost always serviced by dedicated transmission shops; their numbers will decrease as less-complicated transmissions become the norm. CV axle replacement when th
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But, everybody does need to graduate from high school. At this point you can't even get into the military without at least a high school education. I'm sure there are jobs that don't require it, but they're few and far between, definitely not paying a living wage.
As for college, the big mistake we made was by insisting that everybody go to college, but refusing to pony up the scholarship money to do it properly and refusing to ensure that there were enough jobs available upon graduation.
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it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?
From my experience, they've all become SysAdmins.
Re:There's the question of IQ (Score:4, Funny)
A simple example......it used to be you could stop at a gas station and a couple of guys would come out, fill up your car, check your oil/water and clean your windshield. They didn't need a BA in business. What are these guys supposed to do now?
Live in New Jersey?
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"Average" can refer to median, mode, or mean [wikipedia.org].
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You're right, but most people understand 'average' to be the aritmetic mean...ask them 'how do you calculate the average' (OK, trick question), and they'll give you the formula for the mean. /end pedant
Median, some people have heard of it since the newpapers started to use it more.
Mode? You'll get a 'huh?' look...
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Reaction to blue competition (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reaction to blue competition (Score:4, Interesting)
Let me toss in a couple of anecdotal stories that might explain some of this. My wife used to work for a construction company. White, middle class boys would come into get a job and quit after the first week because it was harder than they thought it would be. One guy left at noon his first day for that very reason. My son refused to work at McDonald's because he felt it was beneath him. And I don't see any white boys standing on the corner looking for landscaping work. My step-son is unemployed, yet he refuses to do it.
Maybe the reason those foreigners are taking those local jobs is because many Americans don't want them. Some have gotten too elitist to do a day's worth of manual labor.
Yes
Someone in IT who is taking home a really good salary needs to make sure they are worth it. Not just in terms of what everyone else is making, but in terms of giving more in value back to the company than what they are being paid. I remember a young fresh-out-of-college job applicant telling me she wanted to make 80K a year 'because that's how much she can make in Boston.' I said we don't pay that much in Portland, Maine. She got visibly offended that I would even think of paying her less than what 'she was worth'.
She was wrong, I didn't even think of paying her less. I didn't hire her at all because she wasn't worth even $40K to me and I needed someone with more experience.
Re:Reaction to blue competition (Score:4, Interesting)
And we wonder why we have an obesity problem in the US?
After decades in system/network admin I got off my fat ass and took a job installing DirecTV. Lost about 30# that first year. Beat but HAPPY when I got home. I didn't pay anywhere near what the desk jobs did but I felt a hell of a lot better about myself.
Get your step-son to apply at DirecTV, they're always hiring. Yeah, it's hard work but you can take it anywhere and it won't be out-sourced. There is a lot of brain work involved too, no two installs are the same. It will really be hell in the Maine winters, hauling a 28' fiberglass ladder around in the snow but it can be worth it when you save the mom with three rugrats and no TV. Or when you upgrade someone that just got a new flat-screen and had never seen it work in HD before. How many jobs are there where 99% of the time you leave the customer with a smile.
Dr. Crawford's complaint (Score:5, Interesting)
People who choose to become mechanics instead of accumulating academic credentials are only viewed as eccentric in certain circles. I'm sure the satisfied customers (one hopes) at Dr. Crawford's repair shop will view the situation differently.
If a resurgence occurs in the vo-tech schools, it ought to include some kind of component of entrepreneurship. I don't run a business myself, but I think this would include a larger helping of the academic subjects (a more math-intensive business program, with a calculus basis) than it does now or has in the past. My main issue with vo-tech programs is that they seem to prepare students to be easily supervised, but don't provide much in the way of mobility or independence.
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As self fulfilling as that may be, it's horribly inefficient for people to take that route. I just shudder to think what happens to the people that want to get the doctorate for actual use that are prevented from doing so because somebody got it to work in a completely different field.
It's hard enough to get into a good school without having to compete with people that aren't going to be using the degree for its stated purpose.
Ok, I was stupid/too hasty (Score:2)
Whilst yes, I did indeed ignore the fact they're talking about repair/service trades, I think the point still stands, that you can never definitively say "My job is safe from outsourcing" etc.
Whilst you can't outsource plumbing etc. what stops a massive multinational company from controlling the entire market? (In the same way super markets came in and killed local shops etc.)
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About th
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It's the best part for you,not for everyone. Lots of people would rather spend their time doing other things then travelling.
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In that case, I'd like to introduce myself. I used to travel a lot (19 countries, sometimes a month or more at a time), but not so much anymore. No spouse or children. I still go places (planning a week-long scooter trip [toddverbeek.com] along Lake Michigan for this summer) but I just prefer staying at home most of the time. If y
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But it's a whole lot nicer to travel most of the year and do my work from a laptop on some of the most glorious beaches in the world than it is to be trapped in a podunk town all but 1-4 weeks a year.
So what do your wife and kids think about that?
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Highschool (Score:5, Insightful)
There were two problems with HS in the late 90's I know I was there. The first problem was this weird stigma attached to anyone who was interested in the industrial technology or shop courses. They certainly were viewed in a negative light by most of the administration. The instructors of those courses were treated badly compared to the other teachers as well. The pervasive view was that that those courses were offered for people who could never complete enough credit hours in academic courses to graduate any other way. This certainly was true for some of those students, Having told my parents and guidance there pleas to avoid these subjects were falling on deaf ears, I know that there were plenty of other plenty smart people in those programs who like me could breeze through just about and HS course except maybe a subject or two that did not come entirely naturally.
The next problem was that they scheduled shop courses so they were only offered in periods that would conflict with the upper level academic courses. You could not take honors English and drafting, for instance. There was no way to schedule electronics and AP physics ( which ironically cover much the same materials ). The entire system was built to separate students into two groups and make sure that they never met again.
Well after being on the college preparatory side of the wall for the first two years, in possession of a 3.9+ GPA, I elected to jump the shark. I am not going to pretend there was not some adolescent neo-punk motivations as well driving me in what I was being lead to think was a radical direction. I could always read whatever literature the honers English group was working, all you had to do was visit the library. I did that, I still had friends over there so I knew what they were doing. I could not as easily afford a serviceable O-Scope or a drafting table and tools. It made far more sense to me to "run with the tough crowd." I could just as easily grab a calculus book from the school library and build on the math skills I had. Which again I did because it let me understand things in my electronics course.
I found most of the instructors of those courses were better teachers too. They had lots of problems the other instructors did not have. The biggest being all those kids who did not want to be there that had been put there for under performing in the other programs. Still if you were interested they were largely willing spend some extra time with you and go into the subjects in greater detail or let you work on your own more advanced projects for credit. They also were tell you when you made a mistake. They had all been there forever had tenure and nobody they could impress even if they were trying except us students. It was a much more honest and much more educational environment if you were as a student willing to participate and invest a little in it.
Despite the warnings from the establishment, shunning for the other prep students, I turned out ok. I went on to attend a good liberal arts college, where I graduated with honors. I never regraded or felt I had done myself an disservice by my decisions in high school, much the opposite.
We as a society need to learn some egalitarianism about knowledge. Its always good to know things. Sometime its more useful to spend your time learning one thing than another but knowledge is never bad. I am not some sorta hick because I can rebuild an automobile engine, frame a house, or any other odd skills I might have picket up. I can know those things still write SQL as well as one while I grow pale sitting in an office chair.
People are generally better at things they are interested in doing. It takes all kinds to run a society and we should value all skills.
Re:Highschool (Score:5, Interesting)
Your points are articulate and well taken, esp:
We as a society need to learn some egalitarianism about knowledge.
This is true, and I would submit, present society is completely upside down in its priorities, as the future is NOT going to need vastly MORE information workers, financial planners, psychologists, public relations assistants, etc. The energy crisis will see to that. Over the next few decades, the people who can frame a house, esp. a solar zero-footprint house will be useful. Someone who can install solar pv cells will be useful. Someone who can install insulation will be useful. Someone who can retrofit a house with non-lead pipe will be useful. Someone who can install a slate roof will be useful. Someone who knows how to set up a high intensity permaculture food garden will be of value. Etc and so on.
Assistant program managers for advertising sales account executives will not be useful. They perform no useful function as it is.
Psychologists helping people find their inner child will not be useful. We will need people to find their inner adult, and that happens through hard work done well.
Production assistants for crappy TV shows will not be useful, as there will be fewer and eventually no TV shows left that will be able to afford such luxuries. People will learn to entertain themselves and each other in a direct live and localised context.
Dark Ox - I think you have it scoped really well. My only advice to you would be: learn how to play an instrument and sing as best you can. Then you'll never lack for entertainment. Guitar, flute, percussion, whatever - find some people (girlfriend/wife comes in handy here) who can also play or sing with you. Collect a bunch of songbooks. These become skills you can pass along, making society richer and better.
best regards,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
RS
They don't know what a good job looks like? (Score:2)
I can think of a few criteria.
* Steady paychecks
* Excellent benefits
* No dress code
* Only ever have to deal with cool, smart people
* Don't even have to deal with those, most of the time
* "Full-time" arrived at by working long hours for 5-7 nights, building up comp time at 1.5x
* Comp time then gets used, resulting in a 5-10 day "weekend"
* Unless you run out of comp time, no one expects to see you at the office.
* Cool duties
* Cool shiny toys (my new one is an 8.3-meter mirror - that's bigger than my house)
* C
It's all about the money. (Score:5, Insightful)
The trades weren't pushed out of high schools because they were "retooling" they were pushed out because there was no money to teach them. Teaching trades requires expensive equipment that must be kept up and insured against accidents. Teaching IT requires obsolete donation computers that cost nothing and have very little upkeep. If Moore's law slows the donation computers will probably dry up too and then there will be nothing at all.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hooray for shop class!!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Too many IT people have no clue when it comes to basics like stacking equipment, safely handling heavy loads, threading cables, or airflow. Worse, they're positively dangerous with screwdrivers, wrenches, or wire cutters. And basic mechanical skills lend awareness for programmers to the concepts of "big bulky modules that you have to leave space for", "leave enough slack in the interfaces for you to be able to put things where you need them", "leave in accessible test points where you can check your signals". And I'd vastly recommend basic electronics classes in "why clock signals lie" and "why you use _one_ voltage, _one_ data format, and synchronize to _one_ clock signal throughout your system". The lessons of "why would I do this as a bulky, parallel transfer rather than a serial transfer" are also illuminated by having to run your own wires.
Like system security, such physical constraints are best learned early, rather than brought into the design after the fact when you've already laid out your circuits or your data flow.
Well, DUH! (Score:5, Insightful)
I mentor HS students. Most that I deal with are so incredibly incompetent that I am truly afraid for our society- these babies will be asking their parents to carry them out into the world with no prep.
There are kids that don't know what a screwdriver is or how to use it. Seriously. I had to hold a session on how to use a screwdriver. Gave them a drill with a bit in it and they could not figure out how to drive the screw into the wood.
This is also the group that would intentionally break their cell phones so their parents could pay the 50$ 'insurance fee' to get a new one. Just repeatedly drop the thing over and over and over and over.
I also watched one of them stare at the table saw blade as it was rotating- asked him what he was doing- and he said he knows he's not supposed to but he was wondering if he could tap the blade while it was spinning- if he was fast enough (look up table saw finger injuries- you'll understand why I was sickened).
Shop class, like gym class, should be mandatory for all students. So what if all they turn out is a crummy pencil holder- they did it. Want to make shop more interesting? Show them how to do CNC on wood- that's programming and wood working all in one go.
Right now this generation is nothing but consumption- they'll play their ipods, their little online games, and they go on to college coddled the entire way without a single original thought in their body.
Then again, perhaps I only see the stupid ones.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Working with the hands improves problem solving (Score:5, Interesting)
No matter what your profession, it seems that working with the hands improves anyone's problem solving skills. Boeing and NASA are now requiring R&D personnel to have experience working with the hands, no matter how strong their academic record is.
Watch this video - http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/stuart_brown_says_play_is_more_than_fun_it_s_vital.html [ted.com]
(20 minutes)
The research linking the hand to brain development is found in the book - The Hand: How Its Use Shapes the Brain, Language, and Human Culture. By Frank R. Wilson.
Here's another article about handiwork and education (left sidebar - Why should a kid build a catapult) http://www.catapultkits.com/ [catapultkits.com]
In my work I regularly get feedback from teachers who say that nothing has inspired their kids to *want* to study math and physics more than the catapult project they did.
Considering the daunting issues we face as a culture, with Global Warming and the problems with fossil fuels, we need more and better problem solvers in the world than ever before.
If it was up to me, shop class would be mandatory in every high-school, and it's curriculum would be coordinated with the physics and math courses too.
A mistake (Score:4, Insightful)
The same could be said for any designer. I feel before you're able to design anything, you should be forced to use it, fix it, and understand the consequences of bad design. It would improve the quality of things that do get built.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
So true! A saying I once read and never forgot: "The task of a design engineer is to make the work of a repair engineer as hard as possible"
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I find your post hilariously ironic. As a so-called "gifted" student, like an earlier poster I was prevented from taking any shop classes in high-school. But, I could sign up for theatre classes, and in those (since I had no desire to act) I learned how to use all the basic shop tools, as well as basic electrical work, lighting, and sound.
I went on to get a BFA in theatre design, the only college curriculum that combined architecture, design, and engineering with actually producing the stuff you imagined.
Interesting article but . . . (Score:2)
I couldn't help feeling that the author was channeling Robert Pirsig. I kept expecting a lecture on "quality" at any moment.
Internet Nailing? (Score:2)
Now... does that not sound like a challenge? I bet it CAN be done!
The real money is often at the interface. (Score:2)
other factors (Score:2)
There are a lot of factors that are contributing to this trend. Vocational programs can require expensive equipment. For example, the community college where I teach physics recently spent a large amount of money to upgrade its printing program to digital equipment. I'd also imagine that insurance would be more expensive for a machine shop class than for an English class. At the K-12 level in the U.S., they're so focused on standardized testing these days that everything else is going away: music, vocation
Triumph motorcycles and the bigger issues (Score:5, Interesting)
The article goes on at length to (rightfully) decry the chasm between work and the management of it, how actual tasks that are useful tend to get divorced from policy, procedures, and presence on the management radar. At its root, this attitude is what makes it possible to outsource to other continents. There's no longer a feeling that management and directing vision need to coexist in the same space in order to stay aligned and keep working well and synergistically. (And that may be the only time in the last few years I'd consider it appropriate to use that management-jargon-co-opted word.)
Since the author is a motorcycle mechanic, I thought I'd toss this out. When I was a young man, bike enthusiasts were decrying the fall of Triumph. That once-great motorcycle company was dying. They sold few bikes. They had run through many unsuccessful models that weren't very good bikes when they were working well and didn't work well very often because they were poorly assembled. It was enough to make an old gearhead shed a tear.
And then a story came out, perhaps apocryphal, that pinpointed the precise moment when Triumph stopped their forward progress and began their long fall. Some time in the early 1960s, so the story went, the upper management had gotten so successful that they started looking like upper management. They were driven to work. They dressed in expensive suits. They came to view themselves as businessmen. Or, rather, as typically happens with businesses as they become big, the guys who were bike lovers gradually got replaced in the executive suites by guys who were supposed to be good at the business of business, guys for whom the actual product was unimportant.
Finally, one day, there was a big, routine board meeting and one of the last of the old guard, who had ridden his bike that day, showed up to the meeting room in full leathers. He was informed that such was not appropriate. A rule that "proper dress," specifically meaning "no leathers," was required at all business meetings. The break between management and the iron on the road was now complete. Management had been outsourced to people who were distant (mentally, emotionally, and philosophically, if not physically) from the actual work.
At that point, Triumph was toast. It took years for the motorcycle brand to die. I remember one of the (perhaps the very) last bike they produced, a brilliant triple in sporting trim. I remember thinking it was a death rattle, the last gasp of a company that didn't know what in the bloody hell to do to stay alive and had, in desperation, actually let the engineers and bike lovers have a crack at producing something. It was far too little, far too late.
What I'm saying is the same as, in part, the article. Not only is working with your hands a good thing, when any company is run by people who are *incapable* of hands-on work or, at minimum, hands-on appreciation of that work - the company is doomed.
This is why plumbers make money (Score:2)
I came from a relatively poor family, but was blessed with parents who were hard-working and skilled in many 'manual' areas. Whilst other kids were playing at the week-end, I was helping my Dad grow vegetables, fix the car, wire the house, whatever. Evenings after school were spent helping my mother cook, repair clothes, clean the house...
I'm now doing OK, (thanks to them pretty much forcing me to get a decent education), and live in an expensive area. I'm in much demand when my 'professional' neighbours
independent UK plumbers earn close to £100k (Score:2)
... and they get to have a van full of tools
I wish I'd never gone to university - I regretted the first time and the second time - I should have been a plumber, met a not-so-nice girl and settled down to a real life.
Instead I play at being an IT consultant and post to Slashdot.
- Bah
Bad summary (Score:2)
While I'll wholeheartedly agree that there are too many physically incompetent people out there who have no clue how to change their own car's oil and then bitch and moan when Jip-me Lube screws them over for stuff they didn't need, being a skilled laborer does not lead to becoming a captain of industry. Quite the contrary, IMHO. What's needed is FAR FAR FAR less glorification of athletics and deification of a complete lack of musical talent and MUCH more encouragement towards scientific and engineering c
Community college (Score:2)
Duh. (Score:4, Insightful)
"High-school shop-class programs were dismantled in the '90s as educators prepared students to become 'knowledge workers' in a pure information economy. Was this a huge mistake?"
Machines need maintenance. Buildings need building and repair. Pipes need plumbing. Trucks need driving. Plants need growing. Packages need delivering. Photos need taking and film needs developing.
Hell, somebody needs to make a mug so I can put tea into it. Oh right, somebody needs to make the tea, too. And build and maintain the infrastructure that lets me get water out of a tap, start a fire under a pot (that I bought at a store that somebody built and somebody else stocks and inventories and keeps records for...), take the tea bag wrapper and put it into a landfill (assuming I bought tea bags this time)...
Sure, theoretically we can automate all that. But who is going to build the machines to supply the automation in the first place? Somebody has to sling a wrench.
What happens when 100% of our children are knowledge workers? Well, then we get 100% unemployment, because nobody is building the bloody computers for them to work on. Oh, they'll have to haul their own garbage, too...
You could say that I think this is short-sighted and ignorant. How about bloody stupid? No, but you're getting close.
See me? I'm an embedded software engineer. Firmware programmer, if you prefer. See, I like to work right down to the bare metal, and that means that I work with the hardware, too. I know how to solder and use multimeter and a 'scope. And wire-wrap, which is passe these days.
And what did I just finish doing 15 minutes ago? I fixed the screen door so it would close properly so the dog couldn't just push it open and get out. Guess what body parts I used for that? No, go on, you'll never guess.
I think EVERYBODY should have some shop time. Elective, my ass, at least a minimum should be mandatory. And what we used to euphemistically call "home economics" should be as well, everybody should get at least the basics of cooking and sewing and so on.
I don't particularly enjoy sewing, but I can do it. By hand or by machine. And I'm no chef but I can make a few simple dishes and follow a recipe. Want my recipe for Bachelor Chow?
What are we going to do, give all the non-knowledge jobs to illegal immigrants?
Even if we do, I want to revisit my earlier remark about the unemployment rate. So for a few years there's a big surge in, hmm, let's say, yoga. "Yoga's the big thing, that's where all the money is! We can't see an end to it!" Advisors start directing everybody towards being a yoga instructor. A few years later we get a graduate class of nothing but yoga instructors, and guess what? THERE'S NOBODY TO INSTRUCT. Why? First, because the fad passed and everybody is doing Tai Chi. Second, because EVERYBODY IS A YOGA INSTRUCTOR AND DOESN'T NEED TO BE INSTRUCTED.
Sheesh. It's like our entire society is suffering from clinical depression or something. Think, people! We need all kinds of thinkers and workers, not just one kind of person. OK, today we need a few extra specialists, but things are constantly changing.
And not everybody can be good at the same thing. One problem you get when you turn everybody into a specialist at one thing is that you get a lot of really mediocre specialists. The ones with the native proclivity will take the best jobs and the rest will end up unsatisfied or unemployed.
Don't plan for a specific future. When it doesn't happen, you're going to be stuck high and dry. Find out where your skills are, hone them as best you can, and find a place to use them to their best advantage. Not just your top skill or your favorite, but all you can find. Narrow specialties can be very lucrative, but if there's no call for yours, it's good to have a fall-back. And most people prefer a life with some variety.
And I don't mean flipping burgers.
How can such smart people be so incredibly stupid? Open up the damned shops again. Get the kids working with their
Re: (Score:2)
High school classes exposed students to fundamentals while they didn't also need to go out and make a living. Vo-tech high schools are feeders for many trades. While community colleges and trade schools are excellent for acquiring a trade, some previous exposure makes for a well-rounded human who can fix their own stuff even if they don't become a tradesman.