Downloading Copyrighted Material Legal In Spain 323
Sqwuzzy notes a judge's ruling in Spain that makes that country one of the most lenient in the world as respects sharing copyrighted material over P2P networks. "The entertainment industries in Spain must be progressively tearing their hair out in recent months as they experience setback after setback. ... After Spain virtually ruled out imposing a '3-strikes' regime for illicit file-sharers, the entertainment industries said they would target 200 BitTorrent sites instead. Now a judge has decided that sharing between users for no profit via P2P doesn't breach copyright laws and sites should be presumed innocent until proved otherwise." This ruling occurred in a pre-trial hearing; the case will still go to trial.
I heard the same thing about Sweden... (Score:5, Informative)
I heard the same thing about Sweden... then suddenly The Pirate Bay went down after police raided the building that housed the servers.
Re:I heard the same thing about Sweden... (Score:5, Funny)
The article was just saying that torrent sites are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I didn't expect this kind of Spanish Inquisition.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
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The article was just saying that torrent sites are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I didn't expect this kind of Spanish Inquisition.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Re:I heard the same thing about Sweden... (Score:5, Funny)
And as a meta-comment for all the redundant ones:
No one (sic: everyone) expects the spammish repetition!
downloading copyrighted material (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure if I go to microsoft.com or any other website the content over there is copyrighted, but yet it's legal for me to download it. I can even download software they provide free of charge, and they are copyrighted, but it's still 100% legal.
Just why would anyone think downloading something that has a copyright on it would be illegal?
Re:downloading copyrighted material (Score:5, Insightful)
Just why would anyone think downloading something that has a copyright on it would be illegal?
Maybe because the copyright lobby has been pushing the "downloading X is illegal" meme for all it's worth (X = music, movies, software, ...) without bothering to draw a distinction between the circumstances under which it's legal and the (far larger number of) circumstances where it's perfectly legal.
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Obviously its only illegal if you do not have the rights to do so. When you go to microsoft.com or any other website, its assumed you have the right to download them. This is totally different than when you're downloading material that's copyrighted and you haven't got the permission to do so, be it either that you haven't paid for it or you do not have the licenses or any other reason.
Re:downloading copyrighted material (Score:4, Insightful)
When you go to microsoft.com or any other website, its assumed you have the right to download them.
No, the reason you can download MS software from microsoft.com is because MS is authorized to distribute their own copyrighted content. It has nothing to do with the downloader needing any rights.
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So every time you want to visit a website you write them a letter first asking for permission to download their data? After all, you could be infringing on some copyrighted material, and you won't even know until it is in your possession.
Like said, if its open website and theres no restrictions or info about the copyrights, its pretty much assumed you can visit that site and let your browser download what it needs. However that still doesn't mean you can reuse their graphics or code or whatever copyrighted.
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By visiting the website and viewing their graphics and the page content dictated by their code, you're pretty much using that copyrighted material. I fail to see the difference between this and accessing a website to download some audio o
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The headline claims "Downloading Copyrighted Material Legal In Spain", while the summary says "a [Spanish] judge has decided that sharing between users for no profit via P2P doesn't breach copyright laws". I was surprised at first (before reading the slightly different summary) that the former should be considered noteworthy, as it is perfectly fine in many European countries; the latter, of course, is illegal in many of them - at least for uploaders. You seem to confuse these two (separate) issues as well:
Practice! (Score:5, Funny)
I want you to say:
Lack of gain
in Spain
Drives RIAA mainly
INSANE!!
fifty times. You'll get much further with the Lord if you learn not to offend His ears. ;)
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No.
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Maybe I should elaborate on that point: Nothing could prove that once and for all. It'd be nice, but no.
The entertainment industries have way too much money and way too many loudmouths for any amount of such evidence to shut them up once and for all.
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What isn't copyrighted material? (Score:2)
I thought everything was copyrighted by default?
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Depends on the jurisdiction. Also, the copyright on some material has expired.
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There's only 3 countries that haven't signed on to the Berne Convention (Iran, Myanmar, and another one I can't remember), and Spain isn't one of them.
Now, you are correct about the expiry of some copyrights, but let's be honest, the overwhelming percentage of works being shared by P2P and torrent sites are still under copyright.
Re:What isn't copyrighted material? (Score:5, Informative)
There's only 3 countries that haven't signed on to the Berne Convention (Iran, Myanmar, and another one I can't remember)
The one you can't remember is Afghanistan, Angola, Burundi, Cambodia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Iraq, Kiribati, Kuwait, Laos, The Maldives, Mozambique, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, The Seychelles, Sierra Leone, The Solomon Islands, Somalia, Taiwan, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda and Vanautu.
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So I was off by a few :)
(it's worth noting that more than a few of those are either failed states, dysfunctional states, or in weird political situations (taiwan))
The list of signatories [copyrightaid.co.uk] is extensive, however.
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So I was off by a few :)
(it's worth noting that more than a few of those are either failed states, dysfunctional states, or in weird political situations (taiwan))
And indeed, Spain is not on the list. And some of those states have signed up to more recent copyright conventions.
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all linux distro's are copyrighted, no? Your right to copy much of that stuff is dictated by a free license. so it is copyrighted, and it's okay for you to copy it because license has been given for you to do so. Whether or not something is copyrighted should have no bearing on download legality. whether or not the copyrighted material is licensed for a particular download is what matters. there's no way a P2P or torrent site could know that a priori. Maybe the copyright holder could inform a site that a pa
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The assumption is that something is copyrighted is the default as it should be. If something is allowed under a copyleft license or the like, no one is going to send a C&D to the p2p/torrent site demanding takedown.
In the case of most torrent/p2p site lawsuits, there's a paper trail of the rights holders (or their designated administrative organization) notifying the site that the works in question should be taken down and a failure of the site to do so.
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all linux distro's are copyrighted, no? Your right to copy much of that stuff is dictated by a free license.
To be specific, you can download and use linux without agreeing to the "free license". The GPL only comes into play if you want to modify or distribute it.
Re:What isn't copyrighted material? (Score:4, Informative)
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I do not think Spain has that sort of thing set up.
Re:What isn't copyrighted material? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, we do. We also pay to SGAE (the spanish RIAA) when you buy a DVD recorder mp3 player, a mobile phone or a hard disk. 6 months ago I bought a 500 GB hard disk, and 13.92 of it went to SGAE.
Obviously, after paying that I demand the right to pirate all what I want.
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To be clear, the SGAE is not "The Spanish RIAA." The RIAA is a trade group representing record labels. The SGAE represents music composers, lyricists, and publishers. They are the Spanish equivalent of ASCAP and BMI.
In the eyes of many Slashdotters, this is a meaningless difference -- both groups are interested in protecting the rights of the folks behind the stuff that we feel should be freely (as in beer AND freedom) available and thus are the "bad guys." But if you're of the "artists good, record labels
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Yes, they have the same thing: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_digital [wikipedia.org]
While I don't read Spanish, I did some googling. It looks like there is a tax, but there's no accompanying ability of citizens to download/copy.
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In the Netherlands for example we pay about 24 eurocents on every empty cd or dvd we buy
And this makes sense? I buy all my music and use CD/DVD for data copying. So I'd have to subsidize someone who doesn't feel he has to buy music/movies? What a joke.
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It doesn't make sense, but it was the media companies who pushed for the levies in the first place.
Once they realized that everyone said "ok, screw you, I'm downloading since I've already paid you" they wanted to have their cake and eat it too -- they want the levy and for downloading to be illegal.
I'm betting that a couple of courts have sided w
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That's not "fair use," if you have to pay a tax to do it. Fair use is by definition non-infringing use of copyrighted material. As such, copyright holders should receive no compensation for it.
We have a similar tax on blank media here in Canada, and people use a similar line of media industry propaganda to justify it,
Short lived ruling? (Score:3, Interesting)
Given that the ruling seems to violate several international agreements on copyright, I wonder how long it will last.
I also don't get the common sense aspect of it. If, instead of being akin to losing some sales to piracy, all sales were legally lost to piracy, how would companies stay in business? Well, they'd do it by erecting technical barriers to copying. DRM plus a million. Because they would have to.
If you justify copyright infringment based on "information wants to be free", then expect people to try their damnedest to change what their information wants to be.
Re:Short lived ruling? (Score:4, Insightful)
If, instead of being akin to losing some sales to piracy, all sales were legally lost to piracy, how would companies stay in business?
Even in the complete absence of copyright, the first sale can never be lost to piracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_performer_protocol
http://www.schneier.com/paper-street-performer.html
Plumbers only get paid once for installing my toilet, no matter how many people use it. I'd rather a world with no professional musicians than no professional plumbers.
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And, of course, you pay your plumber 99 cents on iPlumber.
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No. David Bowie gets to pump himself out to the AudioPlumbers union
and can't just sit on his ass and collect his royalty check. He has
to work in order to get paid just like the rest of us.
He gets to "play for his dinner" like the rest of us.
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I'd rather a world with no professional musicians than no professional plumbers.
Me too. I'd rather have crappy music than crappy pants.
Re:Short lived ruling? (Score:4, Interesting)
Allow me, for a minute, to be a Professional Musician. I shall now think to myself.
Me to Self: Self? ("yes?") You know, I wrote[/performed] some great music here. I think I'd like to sell it to people.
Self to me: That's a great idea. But you know, once you sell it the first time, anyone can download it for free.
Me to Self: Well, I really do want to make some money on this... but I'll only get paid for the first sale, huh?
Yup.
Ok. Well here's what I'll do; I'll just wait until someone is willing to buy my 3 minute recording for about $10,000. They can distribute it as much as they want after that.
...
Seriously. Plumber analogy is bad. Why? Toilets keep breaking. The SAME toilet. Music doesn't "break." And if it's free to download again, and if the only time the originator gets paid is the FIRST time, then that FIRST time is going to be pretty stinking expensive, and we'll be back to the rich people (or a church) being the "patron of the arts" ... that system. Which worked back in the 18th century. But really not a whole lot since, if I remember correctly, Beethoven.
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Spot on. However, don't expect that to go over very well. Folks have been conditioned to believe they are entitled to get whatever they want for free. Somehow to them, the only thing worth purchasing are physical goods.
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Well, and to an extent, I can understand the conditioning. Downloading a movie or song for free doesn't *feel* like stealing, in that the chance you'll be in jeopardy for downloading it is very low (unlike physical object theft, which carries am much higher likelihood that you will be caught).
I imagine that this was the idea behind the MPAA/RIAA lawsuits, but the implementation was just awful.
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Re:Short lived ruling? (Score:5, Insightful)
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What sort of music do you play, and is there a website I can download any of it from?
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Seriously. Plumber analogy is bad. Why? Toilets keep breaking. The SAME toilet. Music doesn't "break."
Yes it does! My lady is always harassing me to get some new music :/
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And you can perform the exact same song in a concert, to which people (having heard your music) will pay to attend!
Unless you're crap, in which case, you'd want to keep your music as secret as possible until after they've bought tickets.
I fail to see where your problem lies, really.
PS I can fix my own lavvie. I can fix someone else's.
But copyright means I can't sing that song at a party and I can't make a copy of it for someone else.
You can sing the song a private party, if for no other reason than ASCAP doesn't care that much at that level.
If you're running a business that gathers revenue utilizing pre-recorded or live performances of copyrighted materials, then yes, you must pay the license fee.
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Ignoring plenty of faults in the analogy...
A moderately skilled plumber can still work reasonably hard and make a reasonable living. Tell me that applies to musicians.
Besides all that, the MAFIAA just loves their current business model and the fact that they've gotten international laws enacted to help guarantee their income. There ARE other business models out there that certainly do work. Heck, there are plenty of PROFITABLE (ahemgoogleahem) that give away their product to their customers. Maybe music
Supreme Court? (Score:2)
I assume that Spain has a supreme court of some kind, and that there are avenues to appeal. I have a hard time believing that higher judges would accept that mass internet copyright infringement is a right. But you never know. This is Spain, a country that has judges that take it upon themselves to prosecute foreign "war criminals", and was only recently rebuffed in their efforts to do so. They might well rule "Hey, download all you like here".
Re:Short lived ruling? (Score:5, Insightful)
If, instead of being akin to losing some sales to piracy, all sales were legally lost to piracy, how would companies stay in business?
By selling services instead of copies. You can't pirate technical support, programmer man hours, etc..
Well, they'd do it by erecting technical barriers to copying. DRM plus a million. Because they would have to.
And it still wouldn't work.
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Sure, you can. See outsourcing to India.
Besides, that only works as long as the software is hard to use. If it becomes more polished/easier to use, this revenue source goes away. Preverse incentive, huh?
And lastly, a lot of good programmers want steady income to work on products, not occupy the lowest rung of the ladder/innermost circle of hell.
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And lastly, a lot of good programmers want steady income to work on products, not occupy the lowest rung of the ladder/innermost circle of hell.
Something like 95% of programmers work on in-house projects for their non-software companies.
DRM works. It's not foolproof, but it does cut down on the piracy.
No, it doesn't [guardian.co.uk]. Not even a little bit. Not a smidgen. There is no credible evidence to support that position.
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In the US, at least, treaty is the province of the executive branch of government. Treaties are supposed to be ratified by Congress. If/when the courts rule that an executive treaty is unconstitutional, then it goes back to the executive and legislative branches to be reexamined.
No matter what the law and/or any treaty might say, we all know that copyright law has been raped by the "rights holders". It all needs to be reexamined, if not completely rebuilt. The actions of RIAA-like organizations in recent
Shhhh! (Score:2)
Everyone shhhh! Stop posting these stories, or else we're gonna have to host TPB and its ilk in outer space or something.
Spanish Justice : a oxymoron (Score:3, Interesting)
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That coming from the people who refuse to speak the Nationally accepted Castllian and insist on speaking Catalan dialect. No better than the Basq separatist really. I'll take my references from people who dont demand separate culture/history from the rest of the country. Thanks.
Well, they have a separate history and culture; they just weren't as lucky as the Portuguese to stay a separate country despite Spanish attempts at annexation.
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I wouldn't go so far as calling us "lucky"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita [wikipedia.org]
Common sense in copyright?!? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, never thought I'd see common sense creep into any courtroom when it came to copyright. Doubt it will last.
Cost of Doing Business (Score:5, Insightful)
From a business perspective, I am absolutely certain it has become cheaper to produce their content to CD over Tape (or DVD over VHS), and even more cheaply as a digital download. Content, just like insurance/financial services, is one that should could thrive if it embraced the newer, cheaper methods of production/sales/distribution than trying to do things the old way.
I'm glad that the court is identifying that internet-based sharing is no different in essense, than sneakernet sharing which is always something the companies have had to deal with and has always been a cost-of-doing-business. The fact that it is "online" is ultimately irrelevant, and even if greater sharing drives down sales (which is debatable), online/digital distribution should also lower costs which if done properly, should allow them to remain profitable. Business is about adaption. No business has a fundamental right to exist. Suing your customers and taking rights they either explicitly had, or felt they had is no way to keep those customers, in which sharing and distribution become irrelevant.
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Sharing a video tape, a book, a CD or whatever else it has to produce, does take away from their business (though there is discussion that sharing leads to future purchases in the same way giving out free food at the grocery is an advertising expense).
What a bizarre assumption. You acknowledge that sharing may lead to future sales, but you ignore the (likely much much larger) factor - sharing only takes away from their business if the recipient would have otherwise purchased the material. I haven't met someone for whom that's the case.
This is what I've said all along (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's put it this way -- if receiving on unauthorized copy of copyrighted material was actionable, then I could just copyright something, arrange to have someone else email it to everyone in the world, then start suing everybody who didn't delete the email!
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Let's put it this way -- if receiving on unauthorized copy of copyrighted material was actionable, then I could just copyright something, arrange to have someone else email it to everyone in the world, then start suing everybody who didn't delete the email!
Uh, no ; because you gave permission for teh distribution so wetehr or not d/l is a copyright violation is irrelevant in your example.
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On a related (offtopic) note, I always find it funny when I get those emails with the disclaimer "if you received this message in error, please do not take any action based on it and delete it immediately."
Especially because I'm never sure which of the two I should do.
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Copyright law talks about unauthorized distribution of content, it says nothing about receiving it.
Although, your email example is flawed. When you "arrange to have someone else email it", you are authorizing them to be a distributor. So whether copyright law is in regards to downloading or uploading in that example is irrelevant. It's not infringement because the copyright holder (you) authorized the distribution.
Re:This is what I've said all along (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you suggesting being in possession of copyrighted material without the copyright owner's permission is legal ?
Absolutely! I bought a used CD yesterday, and am certain that the copyright owner did not authorize or endorse that purchase. Yet, I am now the rightful, legal owner of that CD - their permission or desire to the contrary be damned.
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If they could prevent re-sale, they would. Haven't there been plenty of stories about copyright owners trying to prohibit re-sale in the license agreement?
Certainly. But the issue at question here is legality, not copyright holders' desires.
that's really the entire crux of the entire issue: (Score:5, Insightful)
no profit
copyright laws were created so that some other guy with a printing press or vinyl press wouldn't make and sell copies of a book or recording all on his own without regard to the creator
it never was intended, and never had anything to do with, the idea of someone reproducing material and giving it away FOR FREE
simply because such a person would be insane: all that expense for nothing. to not be motivated by profit is simply nonsensical on the old media world, which was the whole point in copyright: keep the profit with the creators
but the issue of effortless file sharing is a fundamental change in how media works, and has more to do with traditional publishers coming to grips with a new reality. IANAL, but i would like to see a legal argument that says copyright law is only valid for the pursuit of those PROFITING from illicit copies, that those copying for free are essentially outside the scope of the spirit of intellectual property laws and their intent and purpose. which is a fundamentally true argument: the internet is new technology and makes possible what was not possible before, so to apply laws from an old era onto it without thought is to fail to understand the issues in play
such an approach would draw a nice line between the old media world and the new media world as defined by the new economic laws the internet forces onto the world, welcome or not
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copyright laws were created so that some other guy with a printing press or vinyl press wouldn't make and sell copies of a book or recording all on his own without regard to the creator
That's not quite true in the US. Copyright law here was created to "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". It's not about some obligation to reward authors or artists, but simply to provide an incentive for them to create, for the ends of benefit of the public.
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No recoup of expenses, either. This is a money driven world, not some socialist utopia where your needs are taken care of.
Sure it did. It grants control over redistribution to the creator. It paid no mind as to whether it was going to be charged for or not, or who distributed it.
Re:that's really the entire crux of the entire iss (Score:4, Insightful)
since you said Intellectual Property, what about stretching your claim to patents: if person X patents an item, and person Y makes the item for free and gives it away, is he in violation of the patent even though he isn't selling it? what if Y does it to flood the market and put person X out of business, because his other product lines can support the cost? I thought that IP law protects X in that regard. Perhaps the same or something similar could be said for copyright.
International backlash (Score:2)
I feel almost certain that Spain will face an international backlash because of this. In all likelihood, I'm guessing that the international community will put pressure on them to reverse these decisions. Nevertheless, as a piracy supporter, I'm delighted by this news and hope that other countries will follow suit. I'm not getting my hopes up quickly though.
Re: Following suit... (Score:3, Informative)
No new laws have been created, all the judge did was spell out Spanish law to the RIAA, ie. that non-profit copying isn't illegal here and never has been.
In related news ... (Score:2)
Copyright was intended only for commercial use (Score:3, Informative)
Well... the original intent of copyright was as applied to "commercial copying"... his reading of the law is 100% valid.
but spanish broadband is killingly expensive too (Score:2)
That's if Telefonica - the national telephone monopoly will let you have a phone line, which in rural communities they often won't, due to having no spare wires.
Hey Spain (Score:2)
Hey Spain, you're about to get new residents. The RIAA is moving in!
Perfect (Score:2)
Finally, a testbed so we can see if this ruling has a detrimental effect on the artists, the economy, or the industry(Spanish, that is) as a whole.
How is this a change? (Score:3, Interesting)
As far as I know, downloading always was legal.
What was illegal, was uploading, when you did not have a license to do so.
The reason downloading is not illegal, is the same reason it is not illegal to buy stuff from somebody, when later, you read in the paper that the guy you bought it from had obtained it illegally. (Note that I'm avoiding the word "stolen" here, because stealing implies that the original owner does not have it anymore.)
The person that in these cases gets prosecuted, is the seller. You just show the cops your contract, with the address of the seller on it, and you're good. Of course you have to give the object back to the person it got stolen for. But you can sue the seller for the money.
At least in Germany.
I know this, because it happened to a friend of mine.
Of course, because the **AA do not care about any authors or rights, and their objective is not to protect anyone, but to make money trough mafia-like tactics, they do not care, and spread FUD all over the media, about downloading being illegal etc. Which the media picks up happily, bundling it into a nice sensationalist news.
So what changed exactly? Did the **AA equivalent of Spain run out of money? Because that would finally be nice news. :)
Who wants to live in Spain? (Score:2)
Quién quiere a vivir en España? I just wanted to try that. It won't render ¿.
P2P sharing is not downloading (Score:3, Informative)
When you upload a file to an FTP server you are violating copyright laws, since you are using the right to distribute copyrighted content. When you share the same file on a P2P network, from the legal point of view, you are using your right to private copy of copyrighted content. Here in Spain we do still have the right to private copy, so when I buy a CD I can copy it for personal use. I have the right to lend my original copy of the CD to a friend, but private copy rights allows me to lend not the original but also the copied CD to a friend. And what can be shocking is that private copy law in Spain does not restrict users to a fixed number of copies for personal use. So, from the juridical point of view, sharing your CD songs on Bittorrent network is no different from lending your CD copies to friends.
Having reached this poing technology has evolved much more than laws. So copyrighted content sharing is no longer related to lend some CDs to some friends or relatives, but to the whole world. Spanish RIAA (SGAE) is struggling to press politicians so they "adapt" the private copy law or even make it disappear. I think they are taking the steps, though the things go slower that in other near countries. They have not managed to limit private copy law but they have succedeed in broadening the range of the "Canon compensatorio" [wikipedia.org], that could be translated as compensatory fee. This is a tax that has been around since tape times, and used to add a percentage to the price of blank tapes or photocopiers among others (books, as copyrighted content, were also protected by this law). Nowodays SGAE has managed to extent this compensatory fee to not only blank media supports (DVDs, CDs, etc.) but also flash cards, mobile phones, hard disks, computers, mp3/4 players, etc. They even managed to ask for a fee on the Internet connection, though I think they have succedeed in it yet. It has been reported that the average Spanish family pays now over 300 euros a year with the current compensatory fee, that is entirley redistributed between Entertainment companies and artists (though the say they share it between artists) by SGAE itself, which is an obscure and privately led organization. 300 euros a year pro family is much more than what an averege Spanish family spent on copyrighted content a few 10 years ago (when copying means where not so effective).
Having said all this I would thank that at least I no longer have to put up with the ads at movie theaters or on TV calling me a thief for legally sharingmy copyrighted content, when I am just using a right, for which I have literally paid a significant amount of money. And not only that, but also taking into account that this money goes to an obscure and mafioso association (not even a company, that must keep its balance clearer), whose role in society is quite a bit less than beneficial.
Re:nice! (Score:5, Informative)
Now I can have legally approved sex with a 13 year old AND listen to my downloaded Counting Crows album at the same time... *take a holiday in spain, leave my wings behind me*
I am sure you are joking but just an fyi - if you happen to be coming from the US - going to another country with the intent of doing something that would be considered illegal in the US (e.g. sex w/13 y/o) you would be convicted of doing that crime upon your arrival (assuming they 1) knew of your intent and 2) prove that you did it).
/. so step 1 is out of the way :)
Well you made a post on
BTW there was, about 6 months ago, a trial where a guy sent e-mails to his friend talking about going to south america to get underage prostitutes. He did this. When he came back the cops arrested him. Not sure how they knew he actually did the deed (I don't remember) but they used his e-mails to show his intent. He is in jail.
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I am sure you are joking but just an fyi - if you happen to be coming from the US - going to another country with the intent of doing something that would be considered illegal in the US (e.g. sex w/13 y/o) you would be convicted of doing that crime upon your arrival (assuming they 1) knew of your intent and 2) prove that you did it).
So when I was 19 and I went to germany and bought some alcohol that was more than 21%, I committed a crime because its illegal to sell me more than 21% before I'm 20 in my country? Or my friends from other country where its just 3.5% with store bought alcohol before 20? (haha, poor suckers)
And for that matter, no USA citizens ever go to Amsterdam to eat the "cakes"?
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Yes, chances are very good that all of those situations are illegal and prosecutable.
Re:nice! - WTF? (Score:2)
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More interestingly, I wonder if this applies as well within the United States themselves? What happens if I live in a state where e.g. drinking age is 21, and I have a drink at another state where drinking age is 18 (supposing I am between 18 and 21)? Can I get prosecuted when I return to my home state?
(Disclaimer: I do not live in the USA)
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Last I heard of it..they raised it to 16 (but it might have a sunset clause on this??). I believe it is still 14 if the other person is not more than 5 years older.
So, if you went out of the US, and did it with a 14 yrs old, and say you were 19 yourself and came back to the US. Would you still be safe? Do you go by which state has the lowest age of consent for prosecution?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Perhaps he didn't know that the Canadian provinces are in a separate country?
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For the other folks who asked about "well what is considered under age, since each state is different". Honestly I don't know what the federal rules are...maybe it goes by the state in which you reside, maybe it goes by some federal limit - I don'
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
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I am sure you are joking but just an fyi - if you happen to be coming from the US - going to another country with the intent of doing something that would be considered illegal in the US (e.g. sex w/13 y/o) you would be convicted of doing that crime upon your arrival (assuming they 1) knew of your intent and 2) prove that you did it).
That does not appear to be correct. The anti sex tourism law is 18 USC 2423. It prohibits going to foreign countries for illicit sex. It defines illicit sex as that which would violate 18 USC 2241 if it had occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the US, or any commercial sex act with anyone under 18.
So, going to Spain to use a young prostitute is right out. But if you are going to Spain in the hopes of non-commercial sex with a 13 year old, then 18 USC 2241 is what you need to watc
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I looked up the text of that law and I'll take a stab at parsing it (however, IANAL, this is not legal advice, etc.)
(omitting the punishments and also omitting the bulk of sections (a) and (b) since those apply to individuals of any age and I'm mostly focusing on their role in the proper interpretation of (c), i.e. "the circumstances described")
US CODE: Title 18,2241 [cornell.edu]
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Re:pre-trial ruling (Score:5, Informative)
(IANAL but I live in Spain...)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You cannot download privative software legally from P2P or whatever (note that you cannot share that software with your friends either).
Not a layer, but a Spanish guy as well.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The law in Spain is that any non-profit copying of material is OK. All the judge has done is make it clear to the RIAA that P2P involves no exchange of money so therefore it's legal under Spanish law.
The same is true for the Netherlands, although Brein [anti-piracy.nl] pretends it's otherwise. So here you can download copyrighted content for private use. Another thing that's legal is to make a copy of a cd or dvd for a friend or relative. As long as you don't ask money for it, and don't do this in batches (like 30 cds for the complete classroom) you won't have any problems.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
and then sell those drives all over the world.
. . . which would immediately break the not-for-profit stipulation . . .