Space Shuttle Spy Gets 15 Years 402
goG writes "A Chinese-born engineer was sentenced Monday to more than 15 years in prison for hoarding sensitive information about the US space shuttle with the intent of giving it to China. US District Judge Cormac Carney called Chung's crimes a matter of national security, saying he had committed a breach against the trust Boeing and the country had placed in him. Attorney Greg Staples said, 'The [People's Republic of China] is bent on stealing sensitive information from the United States and shows no sign of relenting. Only strong sentences offer any hope of dissuading others from helping the PRC get that technology.' Staples also 'noted in sentencing papers that Chung amassed a personal wealth of more than $3 million US while betraying his adopted country.'"
If only... (Score:5, Funny)
If only the shuttle was run by Google, they'd have a better chance of gaining access...
Re:If only... (Score:4, Interesting)
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The booster rockets are still pretty valuable technology regardless of the payload they are attached to.
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I'm going with a literal interpretation. The article says information on the space shuttle, not the boosters.
Further, going to Boeing's page on the space shuttle, all I can tell is their involvement is strictly limited to the orbiter, not the rocket boosters.
This leads me to the conclusion of why China would want the shuttle? Maybe there's a few secrets in the orbiter worth having, but the value of the boosters is not necessarily within Boeing's possession.
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The rumour was that the US chose the shuttle instead of better alternatives, because it can steer orbits, much better than an ICBM.
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Are you suggesting that the US would use the shuttle as a launch platform or delivery mechanism for nuclear weaponry?
Re:If only... (Score:4, Insightful)
The rumour was that the US chose the shuttle instead of better alternatives, because it can steer orbits, much better than an ICBM.
ICBMs don't orbit.
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They do orbit, it's just that their perigee is beneath the earth's surface.
-b
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How much does it cost to launch a shuttle, vs. launching a bunch of ICBMs? And how many warheads can the shuttle carry and drop (remember, it takes some energy to launch them on targets)? I'm pretty sure that carpet-bombing with ICBMs would be more cost-effective on megatons delivered somewhere where it hurts per dollar, even if we assume that the shuttle would get back intact.
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technology has advanced to the point where it could be shot out of the sky now.
I am not so confident of that. True china can hit a satellite going a few thousand mph in a consistent orbit that is not weaving or avoiding, similar for our rockets, they can break up stuff flying horizontally in low earth orbit. I am not so sure if the space shuttle, once in it's higher orbit, could be caught so easy. IE the shuttle has the energy of orbit to make small changes that would take it out of range of any detected launch of anything attempting to catch it in orbit altitude. If it went on a
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The booster rockets are still pretty valuable technology regardless of the payload they are attached to.
I checked and all his 300000 pages of docs were from Boeing, not Morton Thiokol.
I can't exactly figure out what Boeing does with the shuttle. Their web page is pure marketing bull "manufacturing the Space Shuttle" uh huh sure buddy I'm sure all those subcontractors had nothing to do with it, Boeing did it all by themselves.
Other marketing bullshit on the Boeing web page implies they developed the space shuttle main engines, I'm sure the rocketdyne folks howl with laughter at that.
The only "real" connection
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Re:If only... (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned, it's rocket science, and that's worth keeping a lid on. Any kind of rocket science, unless you can buy a kit in the mail or a hobby store, has pretty serious potential applications. China getting their hands on space shuttle plans doesn't mean they'll build their own shuttle, it means they take some tiny piece of it and improve some military application like a missile or airplane.
In any case, China is trying to get every scrap of technology they can get their hands on, regardless of its potential applications or obsolescence level. Some stuff may be useful immediately, others may be stepping stones to other technologies. Shuttle tech is stuff we improve on to develop new technologies. It's better, from our national security standpoint, for them to be stuck starting from scratch than from getting an idea of where our technology is headed and what we're starting with.
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Experience is the best teacher. How do you know they wanted learn how to build a replica, rather than learning what works and what doesn't.
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Why? they can get it from the Russians. They have had most of the details to the shuttle program for decades. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_program [wikipedia.org]
Honestly, I'm betting they will sell all their info to china for cheap low prices!
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Because there is value in forcing the Chinese to make all of our mistakes as well. If they have exact specs on what works, they don't need to run through the host of mistakes it took us to get to this technology. Outdated or not, it's still a valuable stepping stone.
15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Send him to Gitmo, then death penalty. No New York trials. He's a spy, stealing information that can be used against us. When are we going to acknowledge that we are at (cyber) war with China, have been for years, and start acting accordingly?
Sad thing is that you're modded funny, when you should be insightful. If China caught an American spy, they would execute him after quick trial.
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
"If China caught an American spy, they would execute him after quick trial."
So PRC should be emulated?
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The PRC don't execute all American spies they catch...See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident [wikipedia.org]
Whoa there; in international treaties "spies" are people pretending to be innocent while stealing secrets at night. The uniformed military personnel who crash landed on Hainan Island were certainly conducting military surveillance but there wasn't anything clandestine about what they were doing. They weren't "spies" except in sensationalist media reports. Heck, the day after they were re
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not before a trial. But come to think of it, the way some legislators (and even judges) trash the constitution, maybe they should be tried for treason as well?
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Maybe they should.
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From wikipedia: [wikipedia.org]
Under the law of the United Kingdom, high treason is the crime of disloyalty to the sovereign amounting to an intention to undermine their authority, or the attempt to do so. Offences constituting high treason include plotting the murder of the sovereign; having sexual intercourse with the sovereign's consort, with his eldest unmarried daughter, or with the wife of the heir to the throne; levying war against the sovereign and adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid or comfort; and attempting to undermine the lawfully established line of succession. Several other crimes have historically been categorised as high treason, including counterfeiting money and being a Catholic priest.
Very broad, and historically a means of keeping down democrats. In the United States, treason was defined narrowly, so as to forestall abuses. The crimes of sedition and espionage have been used to fill the void, though if Michelle Obama wanted some action on the side, that would be her business, not the state's.
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It would only be treason if the spy had been a US citizen. You can't commit treason against a foreign country.
TFA doesn't specify the guy's current citizenship status, only that he was says the guy was originally born in China. He's also 74 years old and in poor health. A 15 year sentence is pretty close to a death sentence at that rate.
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Re:15 years? (Score:5, Informative)
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Instead, we imprison with cable TV and free health care. I hear our prisons are lavish compared to the standard of a normal Chinese citizen. Might not be up to the $3M lifestyle "on the outside", but still better than his ancestors.
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I tend to be anti-death penalty for various reasons (what ever happened to redemption?) however, punishment? Sure.
There is an element of hypercriticality to this...when the US runs their own spys (something which I, as a citizen, do not support, and firmly believe the CIA should have been disbanded forever after the MKULTRA affair)
In short.... Punish the spys.... ALL OF THEM. Every single one of them, no matter who they work for, is a criminal in some way.
-Steve
Re:15 years? (Score:4, Insightful)
And if we all close our eyes and click our heels, we'll be back in Kansas.
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeeeeaaaahhhh.....
The idea that they're all criminals is kind of silly. Most spies operating abroad actually work with diplomatic immunity, gathering relatively public information and doing analysis. There are spies, working with that immunity, who go about trying to recruit assets like Mr. Chung... somebody disaffected, or somebody who has a reason to feel a stronger tie towards another country, or merely somebody who can be bought. They're the criminals, but they're a fairly small portion of the intelligence community as a whole. They're the ones who take the biggest risks, and the ones who get the biggest rewards for their work, if they do it well.
Unfortunately, we live in a world that's not all that friendly. Without spies, there'd be a lot more chaos and death in the world. Spies are the ones that allow leaders to go into a meeting with another leader and tell them "we know you're doing x, so cut it out" and lets military powers stay balanced enough that nobody gains a massive advantage and goes to war. Basically, spies allow for diplomacy to flourish, and they prevent conflicts. China is fully justified in wanting to spy on us and build up technologically and militarily in order to ensure their interests are satisfied. We're equally as justified in wanting to stop them from doing that so our own interests are satisfied. As a patriot, I want my own nation to have the best spies and maintain or achieve superiority in all things. As a rational human being, I'm not going to begrudge any other nation the same desire.
I'm against the death penalty on moral grounds, but treason/spying cases are pretty much the only time when I hesitate to rule it out entirely. The cost of spying against my nation should be prohibitive, and I wouldn't be terribly upset if other nations followed suit. That's the risk assets take.
Re:15 years? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe we aren't talking about the same people...
I seem to remember them working illegal deals for arms through third parties, helping to ship cocaine into the US, doing mind control experiments on people in New York City (Operation Midnight Climax), Kidnapping people (and being sloppy about it), Torture. Let's not forget that they attempted to assassinate one world leader enough times to get him into the guiness book of world records (add multiple counts of attempted murder).
Exactly the sort of sociopaths I want on the payroll that I pay my taxes into.
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Didn't you know? We're at war with Eastasia, we've always been at war with Eastasia.
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Not true -- I have some old newspapers talking about how Eastasia is our ally.
Re:15 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
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He really should have gotten the death penalty. I'm not a right wing defense nut, but treason, particularly millitary treason (take a look at the early history of the space program(s) in the USA on wikipedia) needs to be dealt with in a swift manner. 15 years is not going to cut it, and eventually he's going to make it back to China and live a very comfortable life. 15 years (how many of that will be probation???) is a small price to pay to live in the lap of luxury for the rest of your life, especially com
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He's 74 years old. Maybe he'll have a very short life back in China.
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Arguing death penalty (which I'm generally against, btw) is like arguing abortion on the internet. It's a moral issue, and it's not worth arguing unless you're going to post some well reasoned articles (not sound bytes) that are well documented and researched. I'm not kidding when I say I'd be very interested to see a well written argument against the death penalty for treason. I still hold that his actions fit the generally accepted definition of treason.
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Ha, he should get a medal (Score:5, Funny)
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I think we learned that trick from the Russians
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No they learned it from us...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_program [wikipedia.org]
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Not really, the only reason the US wasted billions of dollars is because of bureaucracy (later years) and initial research (earlier years). If the PRC doesn't have to do the research, that takes a big chunk away and then if the bureaucracy is replaced with a set of people that hardly get paid for the work, you save another few billions.
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Re:Ha, he should get a medal (Score:5, Informative)
Actually the SSME are still some of the most advanced liquid fueled engines flying today. The ET uses ALLI alloy and also very advanced and the SRB are the most powerful solid fuel boosters ever flown.
Throw in the fact that the Shuttle probably has the most hypersonic flight time of any vehicle and you have a really treasure trove of useful information.
Yes the Shuttle was too expensive per flight but really is a technological marvel an one that has produced a lot very useful knowledge.
Re:Ha, he should get a medal (Score:4, Informative)
By the time of STS-5, the Shuttle had accumulated more hypersonic flight than all other US programs to date combined. Even with the test programs run since then, the Shuttle still represent better than 99% of our hypersonic flight experience according to an aerodynamicist I know.
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Isn't America in debt to China for billions or trillions of dollars? I say not repaying the loan to China would be the worst thing we could do to them.
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They're not going to build their own space shuttle if they get their hands on our space shuttle plans. They'll learn from our designs and build something else like a missile, or use the material science for some new fighter jet. It's better they start from scratch than get a leg-up from our designs. The shuttle may be obsolete, but what do you think we use to learn from and improve on?
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He got away with it. (Score:5, Insightful)
He's 74 years old, he'll never see the end of this sentence. He lived what appears to be a good life living in the country he was betraying (about 3M worth of good life from TFA). His nursing home arrangements are less than desirable but he'll still have better care than many seniors in this country.
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Yes if the father teaches his kids to be thieving POS who have no morals or any since of loyalty.
The man betrayed a country that provided him the best opportunity he could ever have and protected his human rights; but instead he chooses to throw it all away for greed.
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the current shuttle? (Score:2)
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Jsut make it open (Score:4, Insightful)
In my opinion it would be a better for everyone if public-funded research bodies like NASA( and the equivalent in every other country) made their non defense-related information freely available to all anyway.
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Re:Jsut make it open (Score:4, Informative)
The space shuttle is defense related. It's been used in about 10 classified missions [wikipedia.org], presumably having something to do with spy satellites.
Moreover I would speculate that the avionics systems, materials, high-pressure pumps, and other technology that went into the space shuttle would be both non-obvious and directly applicable to military aircraft and/or missiles.
That's not strong (Score:3, Insightful)
Sensitive? (Score:2)
i'm going to get modded troll... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:i'm going to get modded troll... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see if anyone else had any thoughts or experiences in this matter. In short, in today's world, what are the real loyalties of an immigrant population?
As an immigrant myself, I can tell you that it depends on the reasons why one leaves his homeland. When it's money alone, loyalty usually doesn't change (it's not really something that can be bought for money). But when one is genuinely dissatisfied with the overall direction of his original society, it's another story.
Of my fellow Russian immigrants, I've seen both kinds. Some come here (Canada) for higher quality of life, but generally try to disassociate from the local culture, and do the same for their kids - their primary social circle is all-Russian, they force their kids to speak Russian first and foremost (even though kids readily pick English first, because they use it more in school) etc. Quite often, such people return as soon as they feel that the quality of life back home has improved enough for them; sometimes, their kids do when they grow up. I've met a few such returnees from U.S. back in Russia as well, and all were rather derisive about American culture and societal norms.
Others come here to settle down first and foremost, and they generally try to integrate, even though it's nigh impossible for the first generation (too old to re-learn everything). The parents usually still have a mostly-Russian social circle, but they try to reach out beyond it. Their kids, though, consider themselves Canadians first and foremost, and their language preferences (they know both, usually, but they prefer English) and behavioral patterns are mostly local.
In conflicts of interest such as the one described in TFA and by you, consequently, the first group would tend to align themselves with their country of origin, while the second group would support their country of residence.
Re:i'm going to get modded troll... (Score:4, Funny)
Recall that China officially and overtly indoctrinates it's citizens to be pro-Chinese-government. It's like wondering why a Baptist is republican.
Re:i'm going to get modded troll... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not the death penalty? (Score:4, Insightful)
In many countries spying results in the death penalty, why not in this case? Spying is a grevious crime against one's country and has been handled by the death penalty across countless cultures since before recorded history. For that matter, if your in a position of trust (vs just sneaking around) than it isn't spying, but treason. With a sentence of 15 years we appear to be weak, not strong from the eyes of someone who could consider the crime.
Certainly a spy that was caught by China would receive the death penalty, so nothing new there. Nothing against the Chinese (vs another nationality), but this business of pandering to foreign governments that spy against us has got to end.
Re:Why not the death penalty? (Score:5, Insightful)
That seems a bit harsh....
As I understand it, the guy was working for Boeing - which is not the same thing as working for the government. Sure, it was on an outsourced government project. But if the information really were that essential to national security, why the f--- would you outsource it?
(Or am I being somewhat naive about the "military industrial complex" bogeyman, where Boeing and the US Government become synonymous...?)
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Space tech is basically ICBM tech which is weapons tech. We fight economic wars (see: Iran, Iraq, North Korea) not bullet wars (see: number of US casualties since 1970 vs pre 1970. War's war and when someone is killed by the leaked tech, it's murder.
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> why the f--- would you outsource it
The US government "outsources" _all_ its military procurement, in the sense that they don't operate their own manufacturing facilities, don't necessarily do all the military R&D, etc.
So if, say, you're working for Northrop Grumman (the only manufacturer of US nuclear aircraft carriers and one of the two manufacturers of US nuclear submarines) and you're on a classified project and you leak the details of that project to some other country... then that's espionage,
Re:Why not the death penalty? (Score:5, Informative)
Let them have the plans (Score:4, Interesting)
I say let him go and let China do something with the plans if they so wish. Its not as if the shuttle program is continuing after this last flight or that NASA is going to do anything useful with the plans, other than let them gather dust or get lost. They don't have much of a budget anymore to even create a suitable replacement at this point. As a fan of the shuttle (despite the cost issues), it would be nice to see someone wasting their money on keeping the dream alive.
I know this is probably not a popular viewpoint in the USA, but I just want someone to get us to the moon again, somehow in my lifetime.
This will not stop spying (Score:4, Insightful)
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But we SHOULD sanction the Chinese gov. These are active spies since this is a cold war with us. We are insane for allowing this.
What could possibly be new about the shuttle? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's interesting that as much as we Americans deride the terrible space shuttle, only the Russians were able to build anything like it, but only the Americans were ever able to operate one.
Kinda makes you wonder, that, if we are not going back to the moon, can we at least keep these shuttles flying, or gasp, build a more modern one. I mean, the whole point of the new NASA way is to perfect in orbit assembly, and it seems we're kinda doing that now with the space shuttle and...
maybe we just need to make a new space shuttle that can be boosted farther into deep space, if we need to.
Re:What could possibly be new about the shuttle? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think the Shuttle is terrible It just should have been replaced. It has been flying for about 30 years now.
Building a more modern Shuttle. I would would really like to see that. The X-33 was supposed to be a shuttle replacement but it got canned for what I think where not good reasons.
Also you don't want to boost the shuttle farther. What you want is a space tug that takes payloads higher. That was supposed to be part of the shuttle program but it got canceled.
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Terrible reasons actually... If they had just decided to use Aluminum tanks instead of the(at the time) troublesome composite tanks they could have had the X-33 flying...
Re:What could possibly be new about the shuttle? (Score:5, Interesting)
Terrible reasons actually... If they had just decided to use Aluminum tanks instead of the(at the time) troublesome composite tanks they could have had the X-33 flying...
Way too heavy. The whole X-33 project depended on a bunch of exotic technologies simultaneously succeeding. Linear aerospike, metallic heat shield "tiles", exotically structural materials... May as well have bet the farm on a warp drive and computer AI, too.
Reusable SSTO does not appear to be technologically or economically viable at this time. Its like demanding Christopher Columbus wait until he can fly a supersonic Concorde across the pond instead of using his wooden sailboats.
Re:What could possibly be new about the shuttle? (Score:4, Insightful)
It was an X program. That is the entire point of and X program. It is too push technology.
I think the problem is the X-33 didn't fit the X program very well. The X-15 had an equation, every pound of vehicle weight means X lower top speed and/or X lower altitude. With the X-33 orbiter, its orbit or don't orbit. I think it would have been a PR disaster if it didn't quite make it. Thus either it'll suck, or they'll push the limit too far and blow it up and that'll suck. Perhaps they beat the vegas odds and get everything to work perfectly, in which case it'll suck when people ask why spend all that cash when multistage disposable boosters are a much cheaper program. Kind of a no-win situation.
No one remembers the X-3 very fondly, although it was an interesting aircraft and provided valuable results.
Red herring (Score:2, Troll)
Treason is treason regardless of how much money you make doing it. He should swing for this, treason still has the death penalty.
Promoting their agenda using others' advances. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Chinese government wants to promote their own agenda. Let them do so using their own advances, not by stealing the advances built by cultures which actually encourage advance.
Let the culture which reveres "ancient wisdom" prove its value by using feng shui to launch their space vehicles.
Re: ancient wisdom of the day (Score:3, Insightful)
Too bad that the use of spies is not at all part of Chinese "ancient wisdom."
"Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results."
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War. (6th century BC)
Aboard (Score:5, Funny)
A Chinese-born engineer was sentenced Monday to more than 15 years in prison for hoarding sensitive information aboard the US space shuttle with the intent of giving it to China.
He was just a bit too early... (Score:2)
Concorde vs. Concordski (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Concorde vs. Concordski (Score:4, Interesting)
More often than not the data collected by the Soviet agents was only used to doublecheck the work of Soviet scientists and engineers.
Re:Concorde vs. Concordski (Score:4, Funny)
That's what I tried to tell my math teacher when she caught me looking at another students test in class. Strangely enough it didn't go over to well...
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Ironically, Concorde's tires proved to be fatal.
Re:Concorde vs. Concordski (Score:4, Insightful)
While a stray piece of titanium from a previous jetliner may have shredded the tire and caused the fuel tank to puncture, I think I could more readily argue that the fuel tank having insufficient protection is the real problem. I would prefer to have any kind of tire event keep all passengers, structural elements and fuel tanks intact. Judging from the amount of abuse subsonic jetliners have sustained over the last 40 years, and the fact that Concordes were retrofitted with better tank protection before the economy tanked and they were all grounded, I really have a hard time blaming the tires.
Web 2.0 why not Cold War 2.0 (Score:5, Funny)
Ahh nothing gets a people's mind off their own corruption and failing nation like a good old fashion cold war.
People are easily united against a common foe.
Nothing like calling up China and saying, "Hey that Cold War thing with Russia was real good for the economy. Wanna play the bad guy for a generation or two?"
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Amusing, but you forget, unlike the USSR, the P.R. of China owns several trillions of dollars of our collective asses... and you can thank the past four administrations for that situation (especially "W").
Just let them steal it. (Score:2)
AFAIU US is not going to build more of them. Let it replicate by the chinese, they can test i a few times and when it find you buy it back for 1/4 of the price it cost you to build it in the US. Works for iphones, thinkpads, should also work for shuttles. Even better: Develop the next generation together with china.
Let them have the secrets (Score:4, Interesting)
If it'll help launch a new space race, I'm almost for letting them have it all.
I want to see the Chinese do something completely wild, like launch an 180-day orbit mission to Mars or something, completely blowing away anyone's expectations of what they're able to do, a la 2010.
That'll restart the space race.
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How on earth did this get modded Informative?!
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