Teacher Suspended Over Blog About Students 634
English teacher Natalie Munroe is in a bit of hot water after she described the precious snowflakes in her class as: “Frightfully dim,” “Rat-like,” “Am concerned your kid is going to open fire on the school,” “I hate your kid,” and “Seems smarter than she actually is,” on her blog. The Central Bucks School District has suspended Natalie after parents complained to administrators. “It’s hard to know that you sat in her class for an hour and a half a day and for her to feel that way it is like, it is an awful feeling,” student Alli Woloshyn said.
O tempora o mores (Score:2)
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Quoting Cicero, are we? I think he had a bit of advice that would apply to most Slashdot readers: "Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit." Or maybe that's just me and my two left feet. Seriously though, if we are going to apply famous quotes to this story, don't you think someone should mention something about bricks and walls?
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Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur, quod si hoc comprehendere scis, nimium eruditionis habes,
...or so they say.
Re:O tempora o mores (Score:4, Funny)
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Klaatu Barada Nikto
Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think this teacher's suspension over the blog is a violation of her rights online. Everyone is free to say what they wish without risk of government censorship. But on the flip side of the coin, everyone must also bear the consequences of their speech. She went online, said something stupid and now she has to deal with the consequences of that.
And frankly, she deserves to be suspended. Clearly, if she's posting this kind of stuff, her ability to teach those kids she refers to as idiots and rats is compromised. Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?
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Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?
Does anyone want to teach people who feel nothing but contempt for them? No, but they do anyway, and for a pittance compared to what they have to deal with. I say good for her.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
That might be, but nobody forced her to take the job or change her feelings. If the children were that dim there are ways of handling it. Sometimes parents do need to be told that the student isn't performing adequately. Typically that's done via report card, note home or possible home visit. Handling it via social networking site is completely unforgivable.
Typically I'm against employers holding employees accountable for personal writings, but in this case it's not really a personal writing so much as a violation of the students right to privacy and a general violation of professional ethics.
I've spent a lot of time personally undoing the damage that poor instruction has caused, and that was more legitimate lack of training without malice. Something like this could definitely haunt the students for years and possibly the rest of their lives. And no, I'm not exaggerating, a surprising number of late diagnosed "learning disorders" aren't really anxiety driven rather than whatever the diagnosis was.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
Teaching kids is not about getting something from the kids. It isn't about mutual respect. It isn't about them asking "how high" when you say "jump". It isn't about having kids revere you as their mentor.
Teaching kids is about *helping the kids*. If they are great at algebra, then teach them polynomials. If they can barely handle addition, teach them addition. If they can barely pay attention to addition, work on getting them to pay attention/have self confidence/etc. Someone with the attitude of this teacher (or yours) is certainly not doing this. She deserves a suspension. Her attitude betrays a point of view toxic to pedagogy. In a perfect world where she could easily find work elsewhere and where the school could easily replace her then she should be asked to leave. Hopefully she takes her suspension as a wake up call. I doubt it, but we can hope.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
Teaching kids is about *helping the kids*.
How is the 'no kid left behind' doctrine helping kids? How is dumbing down the curriculum to help the under achiever helping the brilliant student?
If they are great at algebra, then teach them polynomials. If they can barely handle addition, teach them addition.
And here we have the crux of the problem with education in the United States. Teachers are unable to individually teach students, and thus, those that shine in their area of expertise suffer for those who are average. In fact, some school systems enforce average teaching because singling out students tend to get the teacher in question in trouble with the school boards.
If they can barely pay attention to addition, work on getting them to pay attention/have self confidence/etc.
And how does one enforce this? Spanking no longer is an option. Sending to the principles office? Most kids causing the problems really don't care if they're in trouble because they know the school system can't do -anything- to them if their parents don't care either, which is most always the case for troubled youth to begin with. Teachers can't do anything when the legal system and government and school boards take their power away to help them.
Someone with the attitude of this teacher (or yours) is certainly not doing this. She deserves a suspension.
Then you should suspend all teachers. I guarentee you that every single teacher out there, good or not, have felt this at least once. They vent to family, friends, and each other all the time. The only mistake this teacher did was to vent on a public forum where it was visible when she probably should have kept it private.
Her attitude betrays a point of view toxic to pedagogy.
Point your finger to the Government system that have ham-strung our education system. The teachers are as much a product of it as the piss-poor education our children are suffering through. She's a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.
Hopefully she takes her suspension as a wake up call. I doubt it, but we can hope.
Why should she? She will likely do the exact same thing that students under her do who also cause problems. Not a damn thing. Why? Because it won't matter. Why care when no one else does. You've shown what the majority of people think already. You never once considered her view point. Why she felt the way she did. Why she felt she needed to vent. You automatically accused her because... why? The children could do no wrong?
Smell reality sometime. It's different than the fiction you're sniffing.
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Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a friend who teaches in high school. He comments about his students and their silliness from time to time on Facebook, but nothing even remotely like this. He has sense enough to do it very tactfully and in ways that are not degrading.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with you completely, I've got a few teacher friends who say similar things to what this woman said in the article. But, they say it privately, usually over drinks with non-associated friends, and they're well aware that saying them in public would get them fired.
Teaching kids is frustrating, and people need to vent sometimes. The only thing to remember is, if you need to work with people you're venting about, don't vent where they can hear you!
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THIS. I anticipate a lot of kneejerking posts in this thread, but come on, she deserved it. When you continuously insult and degrade your teachers publicly, whether it's in person or online, don't be surprised when the school suspends your ass, and for good reason.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
Teachers are expected to lead their charges in the right direction and have made the choice to be a teacher in the first place.
And if a teacher is doing that when acting in her position at school, I don't see a problem with her holding or expressing negative opinions outside of school. Writing in her blog is not the same as neglecting or mistreating her students. Just as I can work with co-workers I don't like or respect, I'm sure she's capable of instructing people she doesn't like or respect.
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Would you say the same thing if it was a student suspended for off-campus speach about his teachers? It seems Slashdot has a problem with punishing the students for this kind of behavior, and I don't see anything that would negate that principle here.
You mean besides the fact that they're minors and not held to the same standard as adults?
Re:Oh, come on (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's a hint: the teacher is supposed to be the RESPONSIBLE one of this matchup.
No, I don't see how that's pertinent. Just because she doesn't like her students doesn't mean she's not doing her job. It's not irresponsible to complain about people you don't like. Impolitic, maybe, but I'm less interested in politically-savvy teachers than I am in capable educators.
If she's not doing her job that's irresponsible, but if she's doing it despite personal feelings, I'd say that's the definition of responsibility.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. Some of my BEST teachers (based on the measure of how much I learned/gained from a class) had no problem calling a student out in front of the WHOLE class with a cuttingly honest remark. Why? Because they would point out the faults and pressure you to work towards fixing them. Sure, there was a student here or there that merely gave up in the class after such remarks, but those were the same students that put no effort in elsewhere either. On the flip side, these same teachers gave out praise for exemplary work, and you can bet when you got it you felt great.
At this point, too many students are coddled when they need to be slapped up-side the head with reality. Lazy, disrespectful, and borderline criminal students need not be told it's "okay" but rather need to be told to shape up. Too many are coming out of school expecting things to be handed to them, or to "pass" with minimum effort.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with everything you said, but it has nothing to do with this situation.
There is a big difference between calling a students failings out in the class room vs any public forum, electronic or otherwise.
And I would also expect a teacher who says "I hate your kid" to get fired no matter what the forum.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
You're talking about constructive criticism. It does have it's place. TFA is about a teacher writing snarky comments (that seemed to be mostly name calling rather than constructive) in her blog where they wouldn't likely do the students any good.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
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1. dishing out of public humiliation is not in a teacher's job description.it's not her choice or prerogative. ...")
2. her comments were not constructive.
3. her comments were subjective ("rat-like", "dim", "i hate
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The problem is most Slashdotters were hailing as "free speech" the Facebook thing where someone decided an employer couldn't fire an employee for blatantly badmouthing him on Faceboook.
So which is it?
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So which is it?
Neither. She was not complaining about her employer, so it is a false comparison./p>
The closest I think you could come to it is that she was complaining about her working conditions. Not the same thing.
You Forget. Teachers are Scum (Score:5, Insightful)
They have no right to a union, no right to speak, no right to demand respect from students. Everybody except teachers knows exactly how to teach just as those who use computers or cars know everything there is about how to design and build them. Education is a mess because of worthless, lowlife teachers and despite the heroic efforts of principals, administrators, parents, taxpayers, and former students. All the smart people on Slashdot taught themselves everything they know, and, as former students, are experts not only at being students but also on being teachers. Teachers should be fed to the hogs, or better still, the students. Just imagine how much money it would save if students taught themselves and ate ground teacher instead of tax-payer supported lunchmeat.
I don't work for a school district, or, of course, I would be suspended and muzzled for this post. Quite right, too.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
There's quite a strong bias against teachers here. There's also a lot of self-proclaimed geniuses who don't get recognized because ["the system" is biased against them | they test badly | they have assburgers | other lame-ass excuse].
I wonder if these two facts are connected?
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
I would want to be taught by someone who is honest. If a dimwitted student is holding back the rest of the class, I want the teachers empowered to say so and do something about it. In my experience, the more patronizing a teacher, the less effective he or she is.
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If a dimwitted student is holding back the rest of the class, I want the teachers empowered to say so and do something about it.
There are ways to do that that don't involve ridiculing the "dimwitted" students. This isn't about protecting the self-images of precious little snowflakes, it's about basic human decency and the fact that it's fucking rude to talk about people that way, children or otherwise, especially in a public forum.
It's not the idea she communicated that got her fired, it's the unprofessio
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Not since grades of B and lower were abolished.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
A teacher's obligation is to help her students learn, is it not? An appropriate response to a student "holding back the rest of the class" is to confer with the parent and recommend alternatives, not complain about it on a publicly accessible blog. Honesty does not require being an asshole.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Insightful)
And then the parents go "LA LA LA Our crotchfruit is perfect! WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!" while plugging their ears.
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Mod parent up for "crotchfruit" :D
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Being an asshole is often a prerequisite to getting things accomplished.
Re:Not an YRO (Score:4, Interesting)
That said, I can sort of understand why she was doing it. I've known lots of teachers, and they almost universally say the worst part about teaching is dealing with the parents. Some parents try to micromanage the teachers, others won't ever show any interest in their kids' education at all no matter how hard the teacher tries. Plus, kids come in with a variety of emotional, mental, and/or developmental problems that many times the parents simply refuse to acknowledge.
All of this, along with the daily frustrations of shrinking budgets, increasing numbers of kids per classroom, and administrations that don't seem to care about anything but their own political ambitions, means most teachers really need a place to vent. Sometimes they bitch to each other, but schools can be nasty gossip factories, so it doesn't pay to do that too much. Sometimes you see your kid's second grade teacher in a bar. Sometimes, especially recently, they vent on blogs. The problem is, they don't anonymize themselves or the stories they tell sufficiently (or in this case, not at all), someone who has an axe to grind with them anyway (such as a parent) finds out about it, and it's all downhill from there.
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Personally, as long as the teacher didn't give specific names I don't think it's a big deal.
My mother used to be a teacher and one of my cousins is a teacher, and they will openly talk about how bad or stupid their students act. There shouldn't be anything wrong with publicly saying bad things about your students in general.
And although I'm in my late 20s, I can clearly remember how me and my classmates would act in our classes. There was little respect for the teacher, and seeing some of the things written
Re:Not an YRO (Score:5, Insightful)
I had teachers who regularly called students (me included) "stupid bastard", and that wasn't by any means the worst of it. Never did me any harm - in fact the teacher who was polite and formal all the time was the universally despised one - nicknamed "Timmy!". His kid went to the same school, and was thrown out of a second-storey window because his father was such a pratt. Not defending that, I think it's reprehensible, but it happened.
...
:). We dissected things (bulls eye, frog, ...) from age-11 onwards; I took an explosives option in Chemistry, used woodworking and metalworking power tools from age 12, etc. etc. Basically they treated us as young adults, and expected us to behave the same. Part of that is coping with being told you're a stupid bastard. Because, sometimes, everyone is (the stupid part - the bastard part is just to drive home the stupid part...)
I had a Spanish teacher (Geoffrey Park) who used to throw a padlock at kids who weren't paying attention, a maths teacher who threw chalk (he was far more accurate...) and it was all fine. I remember getting my own back at the kids-v-teachers football match by starting a chant "Geoffrey Park, super-star!, walks like a woman and he wears a bra". All in fun, and I didn't expect (or get) any comeback in class later.
Of course, I went to school in the UK, in a northern town, and it was far-and-away rougher than the US (at least in CA where I live). No guns or knives (considered the tools of cowards, where I'm from), but it was easy to come home bruised every single day for a year or so, with occasional visits to hospital.
Sometimes the comparison between my school-life and the "issues" and "problems" facing todays youth seems very amusing
Of course, it wasn't all bad. I had teachers who shot down thrown paper airplanes with the fire-extinguisher, or who came out to the pub with us for a drink after driving us to 'Bridge night' (I was in the school bridge team, and yes, we were under-age
Simon
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Basically they treated us as young adults, and expected us to behave the same.
I think you've hit the exact problem with schools in the U.S. and most likely elsewhere. This simply isn't true anymore and I think we're all the worse for it.
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Clearly, if she's posting this kind of stuff, her ability to teach those kids she refers to as idiots and rats is compromised.
And you know this how? If there is no proof of any lack of ability on her part then this should have no barring on her employment. People often go home and complain about their clients, yet still do damn good job for them.
Does anyone want to be taught by someone who feels nothing but contempt for them?
I don't care how someone feels about me as long as they are doing there job. In this case no one cares what the teacher thinks, just what they post online.
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So... (Score:2)
Link to the blog and/or archived copy?
She should be fired for being a bad teacher (Score:5, Interesting)
My mother works as a substitute teacher. She takes troubled kids that every else badmouths, treats them with respect, and gets them to open up, stop being disruptive, and actually start learning. If a teacher is having problems with kids, it is as much an indictment of the teacher as it is of the kids.
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What a load of bullshit. Oh yeah, your miracle mum is all these kids need.
I have seen teachers like that, they are very liberal with what they describe as learning.
And so she wastes a lot of her time on these trouble students, where as students who are willing to learn and not be disruptive are ignored and set long tasks, rather than helped.
You are the worst sort of parent, yes, it is all the teachers fault, there are no bad kids. I am not even a teacher, and fuckheads like you are just too dumb to educate
Says the blog was shut down. (Score:3)
Re:Says the blog was shut down. (Score:5, Informative)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sOtUI146FXAJ:natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-you-dont-have-anything-nice-to-say.html%3FshowComment%3D1297206567911+natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com+rat+dim&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com [googleusercontent.com]
Re:Says the blog was shut down. (Score:5, Informative)
I dug up the last year's worth of posts (all two of them since this one). One refers nonspecifically about a co-worker's going-away party, and the other is a review of a fast-food restaurant.
All the "firing-worthy" comments cited in the news are from a single blog post from over a year ago? Somehow I'm underwhelmed. For those who can't be bothered to read it, it's simply a generic bulleted list of "I wish these were allowed canned report card comments"; it doesn't refer to any particular students, classroom or even year. Not exactly professional conduct, but... isn't this the same Slashdot that was rejoicing not one week ago about a ruling that a different state worker couldn't be fired for personal blog comments about her employer?
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http://www.google.com/search?q=natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com [google.com]
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Interesting... it's hard to really judge without seeing more of what she's written, but it sounds more like someone venting a little after a rough day than someone really nasty.
Either way, it looks like her real crime is being identifiable while ranting about her workplace on the internet. Yeah, we all need to rant a little about how our job stinks without being worried about who we're offending, but doing it in such a way that your boss, co-workers, subordinates, or students and their parents can find it a
the list is great (Score:2)
between "too smart for her own good" and "seems smarter than she actually is," there isn't much room in formal schooling i'm afraid.
also, note the sweet irony of her including the derogations: "complainer," "rude, beligerent [sic], argumentative fuck," and "tactless."
see you in hell, bitch.
Pot, meet Kettle (Score:3, Insightful)
She's the idiot (Score:3)
/. News Network (Score:2)
Insulting children in a public forum causes parents to complain and get the teacher in trouble. In related news, the new model of ship, the trireme is entering production.
All that's changed is the medium. (Score:2)
I went to school in the UK in the 70s and early 80s. The only difference between then and now is that in those days the teachers used to say it to your face.
Highly unprofessional (Score:2)
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This. While the teacher is certainly entitled to her own opinions, and even to speak privately about them with uninvolved parties, posting things like this publicly is a gross breach of professionalism. The teacher/student relationship doesn't really have anything to do with it; the same would apply between bosses and workers, professionals of other types and their clients, or even coworkers in a business setting.
Or, to put it another way: I have no sympathy for those with no discretion.
1 Cor. 10.23 (Score:3)
"All things are legal to me, but not all things are conducive. All things are legal to me, but not all things are constructive."
Think about what you do before you do it, what potential ramifications it may have. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD. And remember: anything you say on a publicly accessible Web site is publicly accessible (it should go without saying).
-uso.
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See, I can quote the bible too!
No sympathy (Score:2, Interesting)
Wait a minute... (Score:2)
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TEACH THEM HOW TO READ at the level they are supposed to be at
*you have been killed by irony*
Try Again? [y/n]
I want my kid's teachers to be intelligent (Score:3)
Barring that, I want them to at least have wisdom and common sense. This lady, by writing what she did, is obviously neither wise enough nor smart enough to have figured out that it was a stupid thing to do. That puts her on par with those teenagers that post public pictures of themselves french-kissing a shoe while drunk.
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She's probably right about being dimwits, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well They Are Your Students... (Score:3)
Okay. I get it. Parents should take an active role in educating their children. That makes sense Ms. Munroe.
But you are also responsible for those students' educations to some extent. If they are frightfully dim, less intelligent than they appear, and so on, isn't it sort of your job to help them with that? So they suck at abstract reasoning? Teach them how to reason better. So they can't do well in mathematics? Find a better way to teach mathematics. So they are petty and dramatic? Well they are only kids, at least they have that excuse. You, however, are supposed to be a responsible adult. Insulting children on the internet is just a bit petty don't you think? Maybe they are simply learning from example.
Of course, you can only do so much. And I can understand how that could be frustrating. However, the rest of us professionals have to deal with frustrating shit in our jobs every day as well. The difference is, we don't necessarily go home to insult our coworkers on the internet after a bad day. So, yes, children should be smarter. Rather than bitch about that, how's about you do your damned job and help them along that path?
Sincerely,
An Adult
If anything, it sounds like Ms. Munroe was insulting her own teaching abilities more than anything.
If it walks like a duck (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly is wrong with calling lazy, sneaky, rude teenagers "lazy", "sneaky" and "rude"?
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You might hurt their self esteem.
Spectacular! (Score:3)
There is so much awesomeness and win in that story that I'm going to go to Doylestown, PA and protest her suspension and demand her immediate promotion to Supernintendo Chalmers!
cached link from google (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know about you but her comments are pretty funny. True though, it's probably not the best thing to blog about as a teacher. The students' comments were pretty great.
So did she name names or did the truth just hurt? (Score:3)
What I find remarkable is that so many parents got upset its like they picked on and noticed her comment matched their kid. You would would think most parents would just wonder who the heck she was talking about and assume it wasnt their child.
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I don't know about you, but I always was pretty clear on what my teachers thought of me, and generally it wasn't all that positive...
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Quit yer whinin! When I was in school, we had nuns for teachers, and they'd tell you worse shit than this TO YOUR FACE. And then the rest of the class would laugh at you while the nun basked in your ridicule. It made you stronger, or at least work hard enough to not be below average.
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Disclaimer: I have not read the blog in question.
Just because she thinks some of her students aren't worth the time she spends on them doesn't mean she hates her job per se. She could feel that some of the students aren't great to be around and a joy to teach. It's just that those students aren't rant-worthy on a personal blog.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not the issue. If she had spoken to the parents, privately, about their children that's one thing. To speak about the children in this fashion on a public forum is extremely unprofessional behavior.
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
I not only have to agree with everything the parent says, but add two points:
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
2) I taught emotionally disturbed kids and normal kids. Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades. I've known people that have been insulted by teachers that took it to heart because they respected the teacher and took years to understand the comments were not only inappropriate but not worth paying attention to.
All teachers want to be remembered as an influence and want to change lives, but not in the way this teacher has changed some young lives.
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So when students post disparaging comments about their teachers on their Facebook pages and they are disciplined for doing that, everyone seems to get all up in arms about the students' First Amendment rights.
But when a teacher does the same to their students, it is justifiable to suspend them?
You can't have it both ways!
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"You can't have it both ways!"
yes. yes you can.
If my doctor fucks up my surgery I should be able to complain about them providing crappy service.
The doctor on the other hand still has to respect doctor patient privilege.
The students are not professionals, they have no duty to act professionally.
The teachers are supposed to be professionals and are supposed to act professionally.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous, pervert!
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And your type really makes me puke.
Raising kids to be emotional nutjobs because they are never taught how to deal with negative feedback.
FAIL. [mindspring.com]
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You fucking retard. [mindspring.com]
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit, and
Oh, no! Someone said mean words to me! For some reason, I absolutely must get offended by this!
You may not feel it's appropriate, but this is the reality of the world we live in. The school could be facing lawsuits like this, whether the plaintiffs are just trying to make a buck, or if they feel it's the only way to make sure it doesn't happen again, they are still open to liability issues surrounding this.
Even for teens, teachers are still enough of an authority that for a student to realize this is being said about them in a very public forum (not just the teacher's lounge, for example) could have repercussions for decades.
Decades? No, even for a moment? Why are some people so afraid of words? If there's anything people need to be taught, it's that you do not need to be offended by mere words, and indeed, it is far more efficient not to be. If you made a mistake, don't make the same one again. If you didn't, shrug it off. Whining about things (especially words) and getting offended doesn't change anything.
I've heard people say this, and it sounds like good logic, but it's good in theory and not in face. The phrase "I love you" is just words. The Constitution is just words. Hitler's speeches that riled up so many people is just words.
But words are how we communicate, they are how we express our thoughts and feelings. They are how we transmit facts and opinions, so the "Just words" argument really doesn't work.
These words are letting a number of students know that someone they respected and whom they thought respected them did not respect them. They are telling them that someone, a trained and recognized authority, has judged them to be inferior. So it's more than just words, there's a lot more involved. Even for people that will just "shrug it off," there's still damage that hits in ways we don't always see for a long time.
So it's not about words. It's what those words convey, communicate, and represent.
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Your advice is to stop being human.
Actually, I never claimed that you should get rid of positive emotions. I just said that you should not let negative ones control you and effect your state of mind by not getting offended in the first place.
I'm sure that will work well for the general, um... human, population.
There's no reason that humans have to be offended by everything. And indeed, a more logical mindset probably would benefit a majority of the population (or so I believe).
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Funny)
>This opens the school up for a big "emotional distress" lawsuit
By whom? Unless she named specific children, who is going to sue?
Class action ?
(Pun intended)
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HEY *nom nom nom* I like paste!
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Interesting)
Depending on the status of her blog, it's arguable how public that kind of communication should be considered. While I think it's dumb that she would post such brutally honest feelings somewhere the parents could find it, I'm not sure it's much different than if she were to say the same things to friends at a bar -- and in the bar situation I would definitely say it's her right to say what she wants without this kind of disciplionary action.
The fact of the matter is, sometimes this stuff is true. And it's definitely true that despite the best intentions, lots of teachers feel this way, even if it's only for the space of an afternoon after a particularly difficult week. Are we meant to fire every teacher who has a negative thought about her students? It's probable that there's more to the story that would change my mind, but I don't see how this is any different that suspending a student because he said he hates his Principal on Facebook.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Informative)
Here's a link to a relevant cached post from the blog.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3xdfvZq3_YMJ:natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/2009/10/big-problem-today.html+%22Where+are+we+going,+and+why+are+we+in+this+handbasket%22+%22Natalie%22+%22A+big+problem+today%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com [googleusercontent.com]
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Not to mention illegal in many places. Juvenile law is a pretty different animal, which is why you often see news reports about teenagers with no name or picture associated.
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:5, Interesting)
Normally I'm aghast when someone gets in trouble at work for their private blog/whatever, but in this case it's perfectly reasonable.
Why is it reasonable in this case? What does it matter what she thinks about her students, and why does it matter that people actually know the truth about how she feels? "Oh no! She might hurt the kids' feelings. Their precious self-esteem will be destroyed," you say. Kids so desperately need to learn to hear shit they won't like -- this is something that's missing from our society. Kids need thick skin. If she can get through to the kids and teach them the material, she has done her job superbly. In fact, showing her kids that it's ok to not be scared to speak the truth despite possible retribution is a vitally important lesson, one which too few kids even learn in their entire lives... Instead they turn into Compliance Sheep who never speak up or fight for what they believe in.
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But... that would mean that kids actually need to take a step out of their bubbles that society desperately wants to keep them in! Unacceptable! Censor violent media for children, fire teachers who state their opinions about their students, and blame everything but the child for their behavior! Learning that you don't have to be offended by mere words is just... unacceptable!
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Insightful)
Purely playing Devil's Advocate here ....
But haven't kids repeatedly gotten their right to say what they want about teachers online upheld over and over?
I've know a fair few teachers ... as much as they start out really giving a shit, after a sufficiently long period of time babysitting other people's ill-behaved, spoiled brats with various anti-social disorders ... well, eventually, they're mostly just putting in time.
Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Won't Someone Think of the Teachers? (Score:3)
What bothers me more about
Re:Less Honesty Please... (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone keeps lamenting how we need more educators -- make it less of a thankless job, and let teachers actually fail kids and be able to enforce some form of discipline.
Sadly that right is reserved only for private schools (and even then only ones with standards, ones that are not afraid to lose students for the sake of the bottom line). This works because public schools are always there to catch the dumb, delinquent and violent of the bunch. Sadly also the poor.
The system does work for those with money or exceptionally intelligent children (Catholic schools can offer scholarships even at grade school level). For everyone else... well, that's not where politicians' kids are anyway...
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Nowadays they're so hand-cuffed by not wanting to hurt little Billy's feelings by telling him he can't spell, I can see why she would be ranting about the things she'd like to say.
People need to harden the fuck up. Billy isn't 'differently-abled', he's just bad at it, and he's probably good at something else so just tell him he's bad at this. No-one is going to want to teach if teachers don't have the power to put kids in their place when they get out of line.
It's getting to the stage when a teacher's response to 'fuck you, you fat slut' can be little more than 'thankyou sir may i have another?'.
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If you feel this way about our precious kiddies then please keep it to yourself. We don't want to shatter our impression of our kiddies.
That's right. We should just bottle everything up because the truth might hurt someone's feelings. And we should teach our kids to never speak out or tell the truth because it might get you fired. Talking shit behind peoples' backs is much more honorable and beneficial to society.
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That might get you off the hook for ambiguous violations of policy, but for something this blatant I don't think it would. Despite some of the comments here, that's a pretty serious violation of professional ethics. When I'm working with a student I am extremely careful as to how I phrase criticism, because a lot of students magnify whatever is said and it's really not productive to have students crying if you can reasonably avoid it.
You're not always going to be able to avoid it without watering things dow
+1 this is the real deal (Score:2)
This is a real link to the text of the original blog and, shockingly enough ... it's just a blog.
The teacher does not call out any particular students by name. She is talking about her feelings about teaching students in aggregate, with the overall impression that she's considering several years' worth of students.
The list of comments reads like a joke -- she's making up comments that she'd like to say, but doesn't. It's a wacky list.
The students' comments in TFA are still spot-on -- you wouldn't like to si
Re:From the video in TFA (Score:5, Insightful)
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Dude that was 12 years ago.. LET IT GO.
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Like you said, it seems like she was just venting from teacher burnout. Maybe she should have had m