Millions In China Live In Energy Efficient Caves 210
Hugh Pickens writes "Barbara Demick reports in the LA Times that more than 30 million Chinese people live in caves, many of them in Shaanxi province, where the Loess plateau, with its distinctive cliffs of yellow, porous soil, makes digging easy and cave dwelling a reasonable option. The better caves protrude from mountains and are reinforced with brick masonry. Some are connected laterally so a family can have several chambers. Electricity and even running water can be brought in. 'Most aren't so fancy, but I've seen some really beautiful caves: high ceilings and spacious with a nice yard out front where you can exercise and sit in the sun,' says Ren, who works as a driver in the Shaanxi provincial capital, Xian. 'It's cool in the summer and warm in the winter. It's quiet and safe.' In recent years, architects have been reappraising the cave in environmental terms, and they like what they see. 'It is energy efficient. The farmers can save their arable land for planting if they build their houses in the slope. It doesn't take much money or skill to build,' says Liu Jiaping, director of the Green Architecture Research Center in Xian and perhaps the leading expert on cave living. Liu helped design and develop a modernized version of traditional cave dwellings that in 2006 was a finalist for a World Habitat Award, sponsored by a British foundation dedicated to sustainable housing. Meanwhile, a thriving market around Yanan means a cave with three rooms and a bathroom (a total of 750 square feet) can be advertised for sale at $46,000. 'Life is easy and comfortable here. I don't need to climb stairs. I have everything I need,' says 76-year-old Ma Liangshui. 'I've lived all my life in caves, and I can't imagine anything different.'"
Finallly history repeats (Score:5, Funny)
Will advanced civilizations one day find our remains and conclude we were cave dwellers?
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Re:Finallly history repeats (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Finallly history repeats (Score:5, Insightful)
Will advanced civilizations one day find our remains and conclude we were cave dwellers?
That's already a reasonably common observation in our current civilization (which sometimes characterizes itself as "advanced"). I've seen any number of descriptions of houses as artificial caves. This especially applies to houses made of brick or concrete materials, which are really just artificial stones. If you're living in an area that's mostly flat terrain, making your own mini-hills with a door in the side can be very practical. And we even make "hive" dwelling, which we call apartment building.
Recently, there have been a number of articles published about the old middle-eastern house construction, that amounts to thick (1 meter or so) outer walls, typically of cheap mud-hay mixtures, covered with a layer of stucco for a harder, waterproof outer shell. The thicker the walls are, the better insulation they provide, and the more stable the internal temperature is. There are old and new "hacienda" style houses in the southwestern US built like this (and fakes that are made with thin stucco-covered walls that don't work nearly as well). It's not unusual for people to observe that this type of house is really an artificial hill constructed around a "cave".
It's not much of a stretch to call most of our houses "cave dwellings". The difference is mostly a matter of terminology, not function. Pretending that we're "modern" is all well and good, but does somewhat mask the fact that the connections between our dwellings and our ancestors' caves is fairly clear once you get past the pretense that they're something totally different.
Re:Finallly history repeats (Score:5, Insightful)
That makes it sound as if cave dwelling was the norm for humans in the Pleistocene. Actually the reason prehistoric people seemed to dwell in caves is because all the above ground structures they resided in disintegrated in short order, which only makes sense when you think about it. Cave dwelling likely was the exception to the rule, given how uncommon suitable caves are in the first place - the loess plateau in China is the largest of its kind in the world, so it's not surprising to see people take advantage of its properties.
Re:Finallly history repeats (Score:5, Insightful)
Will advanced civilizations one day find our remains and conclude we were cave dwellers?
Humans have never been cave dwellers. They just happened to live in caves, too. That we find traces of human settlement in caves is a selection bias -- outside of caves, the evidence has been washed away. It was never a predominant form of settlement.
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Yes. Some of us even live in mobile caves that never go anywhere. Fascinating.
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I think that I can speak for all married men when I say that we prefer our "man caves" or garages. The rest of the house belongs to the woman (at least in the U.S....yes, we have no balls here, she keeps them in her purse).
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You have obviously not squeezed the Charmin.
Nice... not (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nice... not (Score:5, Interesting)
Too bad you are narrow minded. I would pay $2,000,000 to live in a hole in the ground.
http://www.silohome.com/ [silohome.com]
I would LOVE to live in a decommissioned Missile silo.
Re:Nice... not (Score:5, Funny)
I would pay $2,000,000 to live in a hole in the ground.
Good news! Some day, you'll reside in one for free!
Re:Nice... not (Score:5, Funny)
Not really, My will states that I am to be taken to a taxidermist and stuffed and left on a park bench somewhere as a prank. From three I'm guessing it's cremation or a landfill.
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Re:Nice... not (Score:5, Funny)
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You need a copy of the $50 and Up Underground House Book. [undergroundhousing.com]. I read this in the 80s so it doesn't seem they've adjusted for inflation; still, a rude hole in a hill using PVC pipes for supports can't set you back that much.
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If the cave is not properly engineered, it can be a death trap. Just look at all the miners that die from collapsed tunnels. If you're living in a mountain, then you're going to be dealing with ground swells, and potential tunnel collapses.
That doesn't seem to be the problem for the caves in the article. Some have been handed down so many generations the family doesn't know anymore which great*n grandparent first carved it out.
Re:Nice... not (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nice... not (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's an earthquake, a house has a lower chance of burying you alive.
Re:Nice... not (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, it's nice to have a bedrooms/bathrooms with a window. Not only for a view and some fresh air, but it serves as route of escape in case of fire or some threat at the main and only entrance.
I wonder if radon and other poisonous things are a concern. But if your alternative is living out of cardboard boxes or a landfill with your children, then a cave doesn't seem so bad.
Families living on landfills:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wfjgcSxEw8 [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o9z43l55PU [youtube.com]
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Fire isn't nearly as big a deal when your dormitory is not primarily made of flammable materials. Minor fires will naturally ventilate through an airshaft that you'd presumably already have for cooking under.
Radon's a problem for underground dwellings. But these caves are on a mountainside. Which means they're actually elevated.
Earthquakes are a problem though. But they'd be a problem irrespective of whether you're in a cave or a house. There are always engineering solutions for that, irrespective of whethe
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Only if it's built properly. On the other hand, a cave is less likely to burn down.
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Yeah, going to have to put a "WHOOSH!" here...
Lower than apartment building? (Score:3)
I've lived all my life in apartment buildings (Second and fifth floor, not counting the ground floor) and were an earthquake to occur, I'm not at all certain that it's preferable over small-ish caves containing a couple of rooms... Naturally, that's not that important if they aren't in area prone to earthquakes.
Hell, I'd love to live in a cave like that, provided that it'd have electricity and all.
Re:Lower than apartment building? (Score:5, Informative)
Buildings are generally engineered to stay up in earthquakes. The worst earthquake *ever* was in Shaanxi, 1556. It killed over 800,000, because so many people were living in caves (which collapsed). It was estimated to be magnitude 8, about the same size as the 2008 Sichuan quake (which killed about 70,000 people, despite the higher population, and some buildings being badly made).
With 30 million people living in caves, you don't need a huge proportion to collapse for it to be an unbelievably horrific disaster. It's happened before. It can happen again. And it's no longer the 1500s, when there weren't as many lives at risk, no-one had the knowledge or resources to mitigate against it, peasants were expect to die unnatural deaths anyway. A large quake near Manila might be worse (due to the density, potential for a stronger quake due to it being on a bigger fault, and tsunami potential) but it's it's one of the worst predictable (as in - it could happen, so people should be planning on what to do to prevent too many deaths) disasters that can occur in the world.
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You can't put any kind of earthquake isolation system on a cave either...
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The Air Force did it in Cheyenne Mountain. No reason you couldn't put a building inside of your cave on springs.
http://justpiper.com/survival/nine-best-u-s-places-to-survive-the-apocalypse/ [justpiper.com]
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True, space requirements and construction costs go way up though.
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Especially if you beef up security around the WOPR.
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yes..but if there's a tornado or hurricane, a cave has a lower chance of being blown away.
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cave+home+collapse [lmgtfy.com]
Indeed.
I believe that claustrophobia is a natural instinct as much as standing in a fire is uncomfortable. And I've seen The Descent and read The Hobbit and I know what's down there.
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You could have a few windows on one side.
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"Light tubes" [wikipedia.org] might help as well.
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Perhaps an entire series of tubes!
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My lady has lived in a cave in Greece and she said it was wonderful, just don't run around on the rugs or you'll slip and break your head.
Problems... (Score:5, Insightful)
I haven't read the articles; are these the same caves that collapse every time that area gets a strong earthquake, causing a huge humanitarian crisis as all of the occupants are buried under the hill?
Re:Problems... (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly those. Just read up on the Shaanxi Earthquake in 1556 [wikipedia.org], when almost a million people died in such caves.
But hey, it's energy efficient and it's not radioactive. Who cares about the people who die without any radioactivity involved?
Re:Problems... (Score:5, Insightful)
But that's natural radioactivity. That's the kind of radioactivity that doesn't cause cancer. (Don't ask.)
Re:Problems... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Problems... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not legal in the USA (Score:5, Interesting)
All the silly safety laws here will make cave dwelling illegal as there are no egress windows in every room and at least two exit doors.
Because if the cave burns, you cant get out.
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Not in any city area, always way out beyond zoning and typically they are grandfathered. I.E. built before we started electing Low IQ morons to government positions.
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You can build a cave dwelling that still meets those requirements.
Big deal (Score:5, Funny)
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Stay classy homie.
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What is the difference (Score:4, Insightful)
between living in a cave and your parents basement?
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between living in a cave and your parents basement?
Cave has more efficient climate control.
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between living in a cave and your parents basement?
A cave is a better Hobitat.
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between living in a cave and your parents basement?
Your parents' basement comes with free utilities and a homestyle catering service upstairs ;-)
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I'd have a hard time getting my Cheetara poster to stay on a cave wall.
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we all want our man caves.
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Less internet access for porn.
Cue the straw men. (Score:2, Interesting)
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Trixxy Hobbitses!
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I was about to say "if the shoe fits", but then they're shoeless.
arable land (Score:5, Informative)
why is it that arable land counts for so little in western (at least north american) societies? isn't it a bit of a shame we devote so much land to lawns, rather than something productive? yes, I know: the crops that could be grown are not worth the cost of maintaining them. but why is that? is food too cheap, or labor too expensive? is it a distortion caused by exchange rates?
I wouldn't mind a part-cave house, especially since a cave would presumably be near some sort of elevation (hillside, escarpment). I think everyone values a bit of a view, some sunlit rooms, etc. but one-story houses on flat plots of land are pretty boring once they scale past a cottage.
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So much land is devoted to lawns because no matter where people go, they prefer to transform their surroundings to look like the savannas where humans first lived.
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It's not that absolute. I used to live in a place where no one could give a fuck if your lawn was all mud or weeds growing 3 foot high. Then another place where the township called a 3rd party mower if your lawn was 3 inches above ideal cut and send you a $400 bill for it too.
Lawns are primarily an American tick with English roots:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawn#18th_and_19th_Century [wikipedia.org]
And one that will go out of fashion in more places and more I predict once oil gets too high (end of this decade).
Re:arable land (Score:5, Interesting)
For many people, I think the calculus goes something like this for, say, growing tomatoes:
Spend anything from $10-40 per plant in potting soil, pots, cages, seedlings, etc.
Devote a couple hours of labor, per plant, over the entire growing season to coax them into being productive
Be inundated with tomatoes for all of three weeks at the height of summer, at the same time when...
Their grocery store sells tomatoes for $2/lb. all year 'round
I personally don't take this view. I enjoy my garden, even the modest amount of labor it requires. It's productive enough to do better-than-breakeven on cost, especially when I amortize the upfront costs over many years. Plus, although I wouldn't boast that, say, my tomatoes are world-class, they are a damn sight better than what the grocery store offers. I don't eat much out-of-season, so having fresh tomatoes in January just seems silly.
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Plus, although I wouldn't boast that, say, my tomatoes are world-class, they are a damn sight better than what the grocery store offers.
I thought this is why people grew their own in the first place. In my experience homegrown have a lot more flavor to them, store bought tomatoes taste bland in comparison after.
Or I suppose like yourself, actually enjoying it. I'd be more outcome driven about it myself, the work involved might not be completely proportional to the perceived increase in quality.
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I've just planted first early potatoes for two reasons:
1) I'm able to crop them when they are small and tasty
2) They are extremely expensive to buy early in the season. I do not grow main crop potatoes because they are cheap plus I have a common scab and blight problem.
Tomatoes: Grow the small ones like Sweet Millions. You don't end up with a glut and they're small enough for finger food. I gr
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In my experience, most people simply don't give a damn. If it's red and shows up on a burger or in a salad, it's a tomato. This is only a recent innovation, a trained perception. This is good, because it means people can be deprogrammed and realize that the red slab on their burger at McDonald's bears as much resemblance to a rea
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Re:arable land (Score:4, Insightful)
Spend anything from $10-40 per plant in potting soil, pots, cages, seedlings, etc.
Devote a couple hours of labor, per plant, over the entire growing season to coax them into being productive.
Step outside one day to see a deer enjoying the last of the tomatoes after devouring everything else in the garden.
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Spend anything from $10-40 per plant in potting soil, pots, cages, seedlings, etc.
Devote a couple hours of labor, per plant, over the entire growing season to coax them into being productive
Be inundated with tomatoes for all of three weeks at the height of summer, at the same time when...
Their grocery store sells tomatoes for $2/lb. all year 'round
That's possibly true in some states. One approach might be to select plants that grow naturally in the environment. I have all manner of spices that just seem to
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1. Comparatively low population density.
2. The best agricultural technology ever invented to squeeze all the food possible from that land.
Far from being in food crisis, most of the western world has problems with overeating. They even throw energy away turning corn into beef just because it tastes good.
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Besides, you pose a false dichotomy. The options aren't having farmed land or having a lawn. The lawn is a vast improvement on the dirt yards of the early 20th century, and on unkept woodland scrub before that, in terms of both carbon capturing ability and ambient temperature (dirt yards are hot).
It makes more
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It makes more sense to put more people on smaller land (do away with yards altogether) for energy efficiency/cost reasons than to have millions of sub-acre semiproductive farms.
Along the same lines: Why give 100 people each tiny yards, when they can have nice apartments next to a large park instead? I think the New Urbanists have it right.
I grow stuff I can't get in stores cheap (Score:2)
And that are low-maintenance....
Namely, fruit trees. Pick the right varieties and you don't even need to spray them.
My yearly maintenance burden for them is, I'd say, below 8 hours including harvest--though part of that 8 hours is late-summer pruning to keep the trees SMALL.
They also require far less water than grass, maybe by as much as a factor of 10.
Best,
--PM
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It's because of globalisation of food market, which gaves Western countries dangerously false sense of security about food resouces they have. It is not like goverment institutions aren't aware about this danger, I guess they know it allright, they just tend to overlook it.
From other side, it gives something for farmers in my country (and frankly, most of Europe) to export. Still, it is heavily subsided. But it's not definitely very black and white - while middle men as definition is plague, lot of farmers
Earthen berms.... (Score:4, Informative)
Earthen berms (Hobbit holes) were all the rage in the early 1970's, just after the OPEC crisis. By the late 1970's, lots of people discovered firsthand the problems with trapped moisture, lack of ventilation, lack of natural light, and lack of egress options.
I think the soil and climate conditions in Shaanxi are relatively unique, so they might get away without the moisture problems.
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By the late 1970's, lots of people discovered firsthand the problems with trapped moisture, lack of ventilation, lack of natural light, and lack of egress options.
That's a result of lacking engineering and architectural know-how. You get some guy who's never designed a house who suddenly gets the brainstorm that he's going to build himself a hobbit hole, or a geodesic dome, or a house made out of discarded glass bottles. The spirit of DIY was a very 1960s (roughly 1965-1975) thing: you don't have to rely on "the system", you could build your own house, grow your own food, weave your own cloth etc. DIY's the second coolest thing about the 60's (after to the conjuncti
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Definitely can be done, some of the better earth-berm buildings I have seen in Florida basically make an artificial hillside with a concrete wall, then the actual structure is set back from the wall 6-10 feet for air circulation and light, you still have the massive heat sump nearby, and blocking of the direct blazing sun, without getting much more damp and musty than a conventional building.
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Yeah it's a very arid region, the soil is porous and soaks up moisture, and is easy to dig into.
So basically it is only useful because of local conditions. Kind of like wind power in that regard.
Cave! (Score:2)
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Almost not possible in the US (Score:2)
Personal Time (Score:2)
...And? (Score:4, Informative)
I like how the article makes out as if living in a cave is some sort of revolutionary idea.
While it seems the Chinese have been doing it in much greater numbers for a great many more years, they aren't the only ones to know how much sense it can make.
If you ever visit Australia and venture into the outback, there are a number of places where people live in caves, the most famous being Coober Pedy [wikipedia.org]. The cave homes and even the hotel are very cozy in winter and very cool in summer and I found them to be quite charming in the couple of times I have been there.
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There are some really nice cave homes in France too:
http://www.troglodyte.info/troglodyte_photos.html [troglodyte.info]
I've visited them & would happily live in one! Plus it would be cool to say you lived in a Troglodyte village...
Better watch out for the creepers! (Score:3)
I can't be the only one who thought of Minecraft while reading that.
Problems: (Score:4, Interesting)
Radon
Air quality (unless all the bathroom business and cooking is done outside).
You better like the temperature inside, because you're certainly not burning anything to keep warm: carbon monoxide and low oxygen.
But not a lot of noise complaints I bet.
So Easy A (Chinese) Caveman Could Do It (Score:2)
Queue obligatory GEICO commercial...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5JV0Fs_GE8 [youtube.com]
Meanwhile... (Score:2)
Millions in China Live in Energy Efficient Caves"
Meanwhile, back in the US, millions of slashdot subscribers live in energy efficient basements.
Coober Pedy, Australia (Score:3)
Many dwellings in Coober Pedy are underground. Very practical, considering the temperatures it can reach outside. Much more efficient than using air conditioning to cope with the higher temperatures. Some of the dwelling interiors look very nice indeed! Yes, some do look like holes; I know, what did I expect. There's even an underground church and underground hotel. All in all, looks like a very pleasant way to live.
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I wonder if anyone has ever checked the level of radon gas in these caves?
Yes. [google.com]
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