Canada Post Files Copyright Lawsuit Over Crowd-sourced Postal Code Database 168
An anonymous reader writes "Canada Post has filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Geolytica, which operates GeoCoder.ca,
a website that provides several geocoding services including free access to a crowd-sourced, compiled database of Canadian postal codes. Canada Post argues that it is the exclusive copyright holder of all
Canadian postal codes and claims that GeoCoder appropriated the database and made unauthorized reproductions. GeoCoder compiled the postal code database by using crowdsourcing techniques, without
any reliance on Canada Post's database, and argues that there can be no copyright on postal codes and thus no infringement (PDF)."
Eh? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Eh? (Score:4, Funny)
Going Postal by Terry Pratchett is required reading, then :)
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It's definitely required /watching/: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett's_Going_Postal [wikipedia.org]
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They cut out a lot of the book for obvious reasons, and "adapted" some other things, but yes, I've enjoyed the movies. I'd say it's both required reading and watching, then. I've listened to the audiobook in the car. Listening to Pratchett's works always makes for a bit of a show when you're stopped at the red light and people watch you :)
Right Idea, Wrong Argument (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as I think the idea of copyrighting post codes is stupid, surely the source of the data doesn't matter. That is like taking a picture, looking at each pixel, manually selecting a similar color pixel and creating a new image, then claiming that you own copyright on this new image. Postcodes should be as uncopyrightable as information about the boundary between counties.
Re:Right Idea, Wrong Argument (Score:4, Informative)
Yea, didn't the US deal with this years ago with regards to phone numbers?
The factual aspect of the numbers could not be copyrighted, only the formatting or something like that.
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I love the fact that any non-natural system artificially created for a purpose by a person or group of persons can be any more factual than any other creation, such as Harry Potter...
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JK Rowling cannot copyright the individual facts around the fictional universe she has created, I do not believe, so if you were to create a fan sequel to one of her books it would not be a problem with copyright I do not believe (though it MIGHT be a trademark problem).
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JK Rowling cannot copyright the individual facts around the fictional universe she has created, I do not believe, so if you were to create a fan sequel to one of her books it would not be a problem with copyright I do not believe (though it MIGHT be a trademark problem).
Wow, no.
Facts that are true (or presented as true, e.g. a conspiracy theory, since the author shouldn't get to have it both ways) are treated as being uncopyrightable. Fictional facts, OTOH, usually are copyrightable, at least in aggregate, since copying them is to copy little snippets from the creative work in which they originate. The Seinfeld Aptitude Test case, Castle Rock Entertainment Inc. v. Carol Publishing Group, 150 F.3d 132 (2nd Cir. 1998), is a fairly good example of why your idea wouldn't work.
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maps too (Score:2)
I heard that with maps instead of math tables, putting errors in on purpose to help notice infringement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartography#Cartographic_errors [wikipedia.org]
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Aside from that being bad in case someone really needed reliable numbers, it wouldn't work; if information is provided an claimed as factual, third parties are entitled to rely on that claim for copyright purposes. Nash v. CBS is a good starting point for this sort of thing.
Of course factual looking information that is presented as an opinion can be protectable. IIRC the values given in the blue book for used cars are protected since they're not really objective facts and not claimed as such.
Deliberate erro
Common law countries are split about this (Score:4, Informative)
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So if I put my phone number on my business card... the phone company could sue me for copyright infringement, in theory?
Re:Common law countries are split about this (Score:4, Informative)
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No, an individual phone number is not copyrightable, but a collection of them is.
Well, Feist is a little more detailed than that.
Basically the issue is creativity of the selection and arrangement of uncopyrightable facts. If the selection and arrangement are creative, it can be copyrightable. A phone book selecting all listed numbers in a geographic area, arranging them by last name alphabetical order is not creative. But a phone book that listed only the telephone company's favorite subscribers, in order by the color of their houses or buildings, quite likely would be copyrightable, fo
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hmm.
what if you insert fake numbers to the list? it becomes copyrightable, since it's not just a collection of facts?-DD
Re:Common law countries are split about this (Score:5, Informative)
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I know this sounds radical, but sometimes people note that there laws in a different country that - shockingly - ALREADY ACTUALLY HANDLE A PARTICULAR SITUATION CORRECTLY.
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I don't know why this is flamebait. I was going to mod it up, but it's a good point that I'd like to speak on.
Techdirt, for example, often incorrectly assumes that the purpose of copyright in Canada is the same everywhere else as it is in America.
While I agree with the "promote the progress" part in principle, that history does not exist for copyright law here. There are more moral arguments in our legal situation.
I would prefer a promote the progress justification but I don't think that was how our regime
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Re:Right Idea, Wrong Argument (Score:4, Interesting)
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If you blatantly make an analog copy of the Mona Lisa, that's copyright infringement even if the target work doesn't have the exact same colour values as the original. But what's happening here is more like trying to paint a copy of the Mona Lisa without ever looking at the original
Re:Right Idea, Wrong Argument (Score:4, Insightful)
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If you blatantly make an analog copy of the Mona Lisa, that's copyright infringement even if the target work doesn't have the exact same colour values as the original.
Wait, have they extended copyright duration again?
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After years of work, you present your result to the general public, and it looks, well, like this [comic-freaks.com].
It ends up like "(http://www.comic-freaks.com/images/stories/mona-lisa/mona-lisa-03.jpg)
You are not authorised to view this resource.
You need to login." on a web page covered with scammy ad links? Wow, no wonder Canada Post is so pissed off.
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Here in the US, the post office sells their zip code database for around $1000/year, as I recall, and I'm sure that where this issue comes from.
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> A database containing factual information can be copyrighted...
Not in the USA.
> ...because it takes time and effort to maintain the database.
"Sweat of the brow" is irrelevant. "Creative expression" is what matters. See Feist v Rural Telephone.
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Actually the data source does matter. Take font copyrights for instance. It is a violation to directly copy the data from a non-free font (including metadata like kerning pairs) but it is okay to trace a font manually and redigitize the outlines.
Re:Right Idea, Wrong Argument (Score:4, Interesting)
No.. much more like someone taking the first picture of a building and then claiming all other pictures of the building violate some copyright of the first picture taker.
You mean like this [amateurpho...pher.co.uk]?
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To be fair, that case was about style and subject, not just subject. An identically-staged photo in full color, black and white, or basically any other color treatment but "black and white, with red bus" would not have been infringing. That's not to say I agree that the staging should be subject to copyright, but that is the law as it currently stands.
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the bus isn't even in the same spot..
someone who shot the first women with legs spread photo should sue half the world.
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In the USA, anyway, a list of facts is not copyrightable, no matter the source of those facts, unless some unusual creativity in the way the list is expressed (which is highly unlikely for simple list) can be shown, and then only the creative expression can be copyrighted. An alphabetical or numerically ordered list of facts should definitely not be copyrightable.
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I don't know anything about Canadian copyright law, but in the US, at least, copyright is entirely concerned with provenance. If you copy a work, that may be infringement; if you independently create a new work which is coincidentally identical to another, that's not infringement. (Although the more complicated the work, and the less documentation you have for how you did it, the less likely you are to convince anyone that it's the truth)
Crowdsourcing isn't necessarily relevant to this; if the crowd merely
If I were a lawyer in the U.S... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd say that postal codes aren't "works of authorship" entitled to copyright protection. It looks like the canadian lawyer is making a similar argument from paragraph 23 on.
Oh, wait ... I am a lawyer ...
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It isn't the postal codes per se which have been claimed to have been infringed, though, is it? It's the database of postal codes.
I don't know about US or Canadian copyright law, but under UK copyright law there are sui generis database rights which would apply in this case despite a postal code in itself not being eligible for copyright protection.
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There are such rights in the U.S., but to copy a database, you must first have access to it. When was GeoCoder given access to the Canadian Post files? As the GeoCoder DB is an independent, crowdsourced work, the only claim the Canadian Post could have is in its contents.
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I'm not saying that the CP's claim is valid, only pointing out the difference between a claim that postal codes per se were being "infringed" as opposed to the database.
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Actually, I'd argue that since Canada Post is a crown corporation, and are funded by the public, any works they produce are owned by the public.
That being said, I'd also question the need for such a site in the first place, given that Canada Post actually has a very good database of postal codes available on their site, which is searchable by street name/number, city name, etc..
Some conflicts with this story (Score:5, Informative)
My first reaction was: It's a Dangerous path, once "facts" can become copyrighted. Then I (gasp) RTFA.
There are two claims made by the article:
1) Canada Post argues that it is the exclusive copyright holder of all Canadian postal codes
If the issue is #1, then this is truly asinine, in my opinion. I am no scholar of copyright law, especially how it is applied in Canada. This claim may or may not be true. However, I could find no evidence the the Canada Post made such a claim. I may not have searched through the links provided with enough thoroughness. But, could it be that the author of the article either assumed it, or simply made it up? Does anyone have support for this claim, which to me seems absurd?
2) Canada Post says GeoCoder appropriated the database and made unauthorized reproductions.
If the issue is #2 They claim that there were "unauthorized reproductions" of their database made. This could be a legitimate copyright infringement. Again. I see no evidence that Canada Post makes this claim either.
In fact, I see no mention of "copyright" other than in the article. There is just this post: ... which states that Canada Post is suing for lost revenue.
http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1 [geocoder.ca]
Now, these claims may in fact be true, and I don't necessarily doubt them. I would however like to see solid links to sources, for instance the text of the lawsuit. It's difficult to figure out what is fact and what is speculation.
Re:Some conflicts with this story (Score:4, Funny)
The URL having sued=1 in it is making it hard for me to stop laughing.
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http://geocoder.ca/?sued=nope-not-even-a-little [geocoder.ca]
Wow. I thought maybe I could undermine the lawsuit with hacking. Nope. Didn't work.
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something like this works though:
http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1_does_not_sue_us [geocoder.ca]
Re:Some conflicts with this story (Score:5, Informative)
If you read the Statement of Defence on that page, in section 29 they pretty clearly outline why this is nonsense:
29. The Plaintiff's claim to copyright in the CPC Database would lead to absurd results. Individual Canadians and businesses regularly and frequently collect and use postal codes in address books, mailing lists, customer lists, supplier lists, and an infinite variety of lists. If the Plaintiff's assertion of
copyright in the CPC Database were well founded, all of these collections of addresses and the postal codes therein would reproduce parts of the CPC Database and so would infringe copyright. The result would be copyright infringement on a massive, near-universal scale, since none of these uses are
licensed. Entire fields of economic activity – directory publishers, database distributors, online lookup tools, even telephone directories such as the Yellow Pages – would overnight be relegated to the status of infringers.
Also, it is of note that GeoCoder is saying even the Canada Post corp doesn't own the copyright, and that the database cannot be copyrighted as a collection of facts:
26. Even though Geolytica did not copy the CPC Database, Canada Post also does not own copyright in the CPC Database as a compilation. Geolytica denies the Plaintiff's claim to the contrary at paragraph 5 of the Statement of Claim.
27. Geolytica pleads that the CPC Database is itself a fact. The CPC Database can only substantially take on one form, wherein this compilation of facts remains a non-copyrightable fact.
28. Further, the selection and arrangement of data into the CPC Database involves no skill and judgment. Although there may have been an exertion of labour to establish a postal code designation system, Canada Post Corporation did not, and does not, exert a non-trivial amount of skill and judgment to create and maintain the CPC Database. The CPC Database simply collects “all the postal codes”. This is a “collection”, not a “selection” or “arrangement”. Nor does the Canada Post Corporation exhibit skill or judgement in collecting “all the postal codes”.
Simpliefed to... (Score:2)
I will simplify it for you.
Just more government-union greed.
Postal codes are by defacto public information. Just desperate for money Posties want a royalty. Should just say stuff it.
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As Mathinker comments below, links to the actual legal documents are there on geocoder's website on the footer of the page.
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Is Canda Post a quasi-governmental agency like the USPS, a fully-operated agency of the government, or what? I keep seeing more batshit-crazy legal shit coming out of Canada, you must have been infested with the same shitbags that are running THIS country now.
postal codes should be public domain (Score:5, Interesting)
Canada Post hasn't sought to stop these directories from including the postal codes, so I don't believe it should seek to stop an online publication either.
In other respects, Canada Post has shown itself to be a fairly forward thinker for a government operation. To me, the fact that Geolytica has created their website is proof that there is a market opportunity there that Canada Post has overlooked. Canada Post could; and I dare say should, simply out compete Geolytica by creating a more comprehensive and easier to use web page of its own. Canada Post might not be able to compete with the US listings Geolytica also has, but I think there is much room for improvement on the look and feel of the web page itself. (How many run of the mill users even know the difference between HTML, XML and JSON let alone *care*? geocoder.ca uses google maps, but it doesn't look as if they took any design ideas from Google)
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Canada post is entirely free of govn't cash lately - it is self sustaining off of postage costs and such.
Though they used to be a direct arm of the government, and presumably got all the (previously govn't) real estate, trucks, etc, gifted to them. (30 years ago or so)... so that should make things easier.
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wouldn't that bunch of stuff "gifted to them" include the list of postal codes? As in the ones created before they stopped being an arm of the government?
Re:postal codes should be public domain (Score:4, Informative)
Canada post is entirely free of govn't cash lately - it is self sustaining off of postage costs and such.
No. That would imply it has privatized, and it has not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Post_Corporation#Privatization [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporations_of_Canada#Federal [wikipedia.org]
You might be thinking of Air Canada?
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No, it's still a crown corp, it just isn't a net loser these days - is what I was trying to articulate. Guess I did a poor job of that.
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I don't know this as fact, but I would put money on Canada Post charging for these other phone directories to put the postal codes in. Even Geocoder says that Canada Post does this, they quote it being around $5000 per copy of the database.
And Canada Post has an easy to use, comprehensive webpage [canadapost.ca] where you can search for listings.
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While I don't totally disagree with you, what you are basically saying is that public funds = freely accessible information, which is not, or ever has been the case.
Just because something was created by government, using public funds, does not make it publicly freely available (you can argue if it should or not as you like). There is plenty of research, data collected, etc... that is Licenced for use, and their are various Licences, some of which have fees and others which don't, some limit access, others h
How can postal codes be "copyrighted" ??? (Score:3)
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It's the database of copyrights which a copyright claim has been brought with respect to, not the postal codes themselves. Databases are protected by copyright (disclaimer: in the jurisdictions I know about, which don't include Canada), but individual postal codes would not be.
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Whilst I don't necessarily agree that this is a copyright issue (see below), there are a number of problems with your arguments:
The Canadian taxpayer did pay for it, whilst supporting the state funded Canada Post. When companies pay the $5000 to buy the database, that makes it $5000 cheaper for the rest of the Canadian taxpayers to send mail - that money has to be found from somewhere after all. Ergo, net benefit to the Canadian taxpayer.
There isn't a public listing of email addresses - unlike both phone nu
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FTFY. We're talking about Canada here.
For your edification (Score:3)
Please try to keep in mind, these laws are old, and not being under the reign of a monarch is new. These issues will affect every former UK colony.
It is really not much different, functionally speaking, from a telephone number, an email address or a room number. Are telephone numbers copyrighted? Don't think so. Are email addresses copyrighted? I've never heard of such a thing.
Australia and NZ are still hashing it out, actually.
http://www.baldwins.com/australian-and-new-zealand-copyright-law-for-databases-compilations-and-directories/ [baldwins.com]
And who pays for postal codes to be created/used in the first place? The Canadian taxpayer. That should make postal codes a "public good", owned collectively by the taxpaying Canadian public. Creating a free listing of postal codes, where anyone can look up postal codes, is a convenience, and a service rendered to the public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_copyright#Canada [wikipedia.org]
"Permission to reproduce Government of Canada works, in part or in whole, and by any means, for personal or public non-commercial purposes, or for cost-
Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
A guy creates a site that makes it easier for customer's to use their service, why the hell are they suing him?
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That's the point here. Why the hell would anyone want to sue someone over a postal code? You're not going to make enough money to even cover your legal bills.
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If it's small claims, why the hell did they hire what the future defendant called (wording mine) the top IP litigation company?
Lookig up postal codes is free (Score:2)
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Stop Illegal Postal Code Sharing! (Score:2)
This blatant and unlawful activity must stop. Every day millions of post items are sent with Postal Codes illegally and unlawfully printed on them by people not under the employ or direction of the Postal Service.
We must start a campaign to get people to stop placing these postal codes on their post so that the Postal Service can rightfully keep their Postal Code System all to themselves.
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That was my first thought too. If Canada Post is truly claiming copyright on apost code DB, then where do you draw the line?
Very simple. They should have the copyright on their postcode database, so nobody should be allowed to copy their database without licensing it. However, anybody else should be allowed to independently collect the information and create their own independent postcode database.
So sue EVERYONE (Score:2)
If postcodes are copyright, then everyone who uses one should be paying a license fee, right?
Just point this out, then everyone stops using the postcode, and see how quickly they come around when they have to employ many, many more sorting staff for each post office.
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If postcodes are copyright, then everyone who uses one should be paying a license fee, right?
No. Copyright is the right to copy, not the right to profit. If you copy something and give it away for free, you are just as guilty of copyright infringment as if you sold the copies.
GPLed software is free. It is still copyrighted.
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CP is Price-Gauging (Score:3)
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Out of interest, how much did Canada Post want to charge for their database?
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Tele-Direct (Publications) Inc. (Score:4, Informative)
In the US, this issue was settled in Feist vs. Rural Telephone, which was about copyright in telephone directories. The US Supreme Court ruled that such collections of facts are not copyrightable on constitutional grounds. In Canada, there's Tele-Direct (Publications) Inc. v. American Business Information, Inc [canlii.org], which covers much the same ground. "Labour alone not determinative of originality ... Compilation so obvious, commonplace not meriting copyright protection."
I'm surprised CanadaPost even raised the issue.
To quote Bugs Bunny® ... (Score:2)
Protest by sending mail without postal codes (Score:2)
Facts are not copyrightable. (Score:2)
At least not in the US, but I'm pretty sure that applies to Canada also. If they did indeed crowd-source the data, this lawsuit should be DOA.
appropriated the database? (Score:2)
Um Whoops?
The way I see it, that is the crux of the case.
If it WAS crowd sourced then I don't seen an issue, they are doing their own data collection. If they STOLE the database from which the information is created from (and likely sold and licenced from), then yes, that would be an issue.
Of course how does one "appropriate" a database? Are they claiming they were hacked? Likely it exposes security flaws and unaccountability within Canada Post, as in who as access to the production database, and how could
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We could do just fine with once-a-week delivery, which would drastically cut both costs and prices, while improving service (look at all the places where there is NO mail delivery because they've been built in the last 2 decades, so you need to go and pick it up at a "community mailbox"). It's not like a letter gets delivered the next day anyway, an
Re:2 days later (Score:5, Funny)
If it was only 2 days later, it sure as h*** didn't go via Canada Post.
It's not like anyone uses them all that much any more. The month-long postal strike last summer [csmonitor.com] (and the subsequent month to clear out the backlog) was the final straw for a lot of people.
Re:2 days later (Score:5, Informative)
I kinda find it funny that your post is marked funny, but damn if that isn't the truth. I've switched to DHL for my regular mail if it has to be sent. I can send a letter from ontario to northern alberta or the territories for under $2. And it'll get there within 3-5 days. The last time I sent a letter via canada post it took nearly a month. Including the week it sat in edmonton.
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They are still one of the most economical ways to receive online purchases. Especially the $0.99 shipping included cables from Hong Kong.
And unlike UPS, Fedex, etc. if you aren't home for delivery of a parcel, picking it up at the local pharmacy is a lot more convenient than:
-Going to the depot in the industrial park 45 minutes away before 5PM
-Or allowing them to leave a computer on your front doorstep in the rain while you're at work.
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No brokerage fees (Score:2)
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Sadly, sending that same cable from Canada to Hong Kong would cost a minimum of $5 by air.
if canada is anything like finland it would cost 7 bucks to just send them to your neighbor.
and it's local business that takes the hit. cheap local postages would foster local businesses.
but it's pretty rich to claim ownership of postal numbers. next phase claim ownership of addresses and start asking private parcel companies for a cut.
I have no problems with speed (Score:2)
I can order online from a store in Vancouver on Monday, and have a parcel of my stuff delivered a few thousand km away on Friday, for $5 in shipping. That's totally respectable in my books.
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It is somehow faster for the letter to be delivered to the border, clear customs, and then make its way through the Canada Post system, than if it started out in the Canada Post system to begin with. The reason behind this I would like to know.
A lot of people in BC do it (Point Roberts is a reasonably popular place for that, since the border crossing is not heavily loaded, as people pretty much only come there for that & shopping). When I inquired, I've been told that it's cheaper that way, because the mail is no longer "international". Especially ironic in case of Point Roberts, as they actually have to drive the mail back into Canada to move it to the rest of U.S.
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The speed depends on where your mail gets sorted. This last year, the Peterborough Ontario mail was no longer sorted locally, it all goes to Ottawa before coming back to local addresses. In the past, mail to the local region was separated out locally and then delivered, now that all goes to Ottawa. For mail destined for out-of-town, it probably makes no difference. For mail to my neighbours, it adds at least a couple of days to the delivery time.
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now i am not legal expert but afaik the statute of limitations usually is counted from when you stop doing the illegal activity, not from when you started it.
so if the DB is still operating, then it is not outside the statute of limitations.
i hope the canadian post loses this case as i don't think postal codes should be copyrightable, but a defense of this being outside of the statute of limitations would be laughed at by the judge and the prosecution.
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Be careful with the creative expressions argument. I wouldn't say Britney Spear's work is particularly creative, but apparently it's covered by copyright law.
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It's protected by unintellectual property law. :P
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It may also be that FedEx, UPS, Purolator and other couriers have already splashed out the $5000 to buy a copy of the database, in order to make the delivery of their mail easier.
Also, Copyright != Trademarks. In order to defend a trademark, you have to be actively using it. Not so with copyright.
The reason why Canada Post hasn't sued the companies you describe is because it benefits them for those post codes be out there - it encourages companies and people to use Canada Post's services.
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You are conflating copyrights and trademarks.
They are different. Trademarks must be defended as you describe. Copyrights do not.
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Really? Would you care to discuss that further? I'm happy with common law in a lot of ways (although we've got a lot of statutes mucking it up), but I've never understood the appeal of Roman law.
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