Gov't Report: Laser Pointers Produce Too Much Energy, Pose Risk For the Careless 260
coondoggie writes "Commercial grade green and red laser pointers emit energy far beyond what is safe, posing skin, eye and fire hazards. That was the conclusion of a National Institute of Standards and Technology study on the properties of handheld lasers. The study tested 122 of the devices and found that nearly 90% of green pointers and about 44% of red pointers tested were out of federal safety regulation compliance."
nice link (Score:5, Informative)
You have to login to read the article. No thanks.
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-1 TFA!
So then... (Score:5, Funny)
"The study tested 122 of the devices and found that nearly 90% of green pointers and about 44% of red pointers tested were out of federal safety regulation compliance."
So blue lasers are safe then?
Re:So then... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's why we can't have nice things. Idiots point lasers at aircraft blinding the pilots and the .gov bans them. Nobody has any common sense.
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Something tells me you don't know the difference between a Code of Federal Regulations and a ban.
Re:So then... (Score:5, Insightful)
Have governments have banned you from driving? Because the government regulates who can and cannot drive, in the form of a driver's license. They also regulate how fast you can travel on the road.
Have governments banned you from drinking? Because government regulates who can and cannot buy alcohol.
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Have governments banned you from smoking week? Because government regulates who can and cannot smoke weed.
Re:So then... (Score:5, Insightful)
Any random person above the age of 16 can acquire a driver's license. There is no restriction, other than age.
Any random person above the age of 21 can purchase alcohol. There is no restriction, other than age.
Those statements are not true when it comes to controlled substances. The Controlled Substances Act effectively bans all Schedule I drugs for any purpose. Even people who would otherwise be allowed to manufacture, purchase, or consume Schedule I drugs (i.e. medical marijuana) are in violation of the federal law.
Now, is the CSA a regulation? Yes. All bans are a regulation, but not all regulations are a ban. This concept is easy to understand in terms of "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares". Why is it so difficult when it comes to government regulations?
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Any random person above the age of 16 can acquire a driver's license. There is no restriction, other than age.
Not true.
1. Vision - if it's too bad, no license
2. Child support - if you're behind too much, no license
3. Convictions - too many offenses? No license. I know of somebody who can't get a license due to a speeding ticket on a bicycle when they were a kid.
regulations typically ban SOMEBODY from doing SOMETHING. If it's a good regulation, this is a good thing.
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It takes a special kind of sociopath to give a speeding ticket to a kid on a bicycle. The rest? Pure bureaucratic insanity.
Stories like these make me think that perhaps the libertarians are less crazy than they appear...
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Washington, not Oregon.
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Because the minority has never been persecuted in a democracy - democracy is perfect.
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You are caught up in a semantic argument that means nothing.
Re:So then... (Score:5, Informative)
Not really.
What this study finds is that most laser pointers outright violate safety regulations that already exist.
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eb3_1361179577
Pointing one at an apache gunship is one of the most stupid things to do. I mean, pointing at any aircraft is, but one that is built to kill is more than enough to get you on the shortlist for this years Darwin Awards...
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It turned out that 047.13.14N - 122.22.64W is near 48th street west, Tacoma, Washington. If the DoD was shooting at laser-pointing-dummies over there at 29-jan-2009, I guess it was already all over the news.
So... sorry for the misinformation... my bad!
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pretty funny but if you pay attention to the HUD or the other stuff on the screen, it all changes when they go to night vision. I think this was just edited from other footage about a guy painting planes/helicopters and some footage from Afghanistan or Iraq.
Re:So then... (Score:4, Insightful)
And how, precisely, would "polarized glasses" stop laser light?
Insightful, indeed.
Re:So then... (Score:5, Funny)
A pair of filters with polarization aligned at right angles to each other will block over 99% of the laser light when placed in front of each other.
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As well as 99% of all light. They do need to see where they are going :)
Lasers are sometimes polarized, so you could accomplish this with one filter, but you would have to align it with the polarization of the laser, which would require some sort of active system, and there you've gone through all that trouble and only get partial results for lasers that have that polarization. If you were going to go through that much trouble, just build an active system to detect the laser source. What you do once you'
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They'll block 99% of *all* light, coherent or not, thus rendering the pilots essentially blind.
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Meh, people who call "bullshit" on things are usually the source of bullshit. Stating an absolute "bullshit", then supports his absolute with speculation "I seriously doubt", and proposes a solution based on a false understanding of optics(which if anything, is the bullshit). Full circle bullshit. These people flock to one another these days. So don't be surprised when they mod one another. It doesn't matter how blatantly wrong they are, how many times, they will never stop and reflect. I don't know if
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give the pilots polarized glasses
But most of them don't fly over the North Pole?
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They're reporting closer to 2000 incidents per year. I saw a youtube video of some guys in a cessna flying over a fireworks display and I kid you not, they got lit up from at least 4 separate green laser pointers at very far apart positions in the crowd.
And to be honest, I don't really want to know that my pilot is blocking out part of the visible light spectrum deliberately when he's making a night landing with me in the plane!
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That's when you remotely detonate the mines off the end of the runway.
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Peril Sensitive Sunglasses.
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Yeh... I've often thought the US's use of .gov was setting them up for phishing scams. People begin to think any .gov site is a legitimate US government site, when that's not necessarily true.
Re:So then... (Score:5, Interesting)
I saw this article earlier and it's a bit misleading. Buried much more deeply...
That whole "Class IIIa/3R" thing is a pretty big deal. Lasers of this class are pretty heavily regulated because of the danger they can potentially pose. The color of the laser is almost unimportant, except for the minor detail of how green lasers are generated by dividing infrared light in half, which makes them subject to a bit more regulation since infrared is not a visible emission; invisible emissions are more strictly regulated, since there's no blink reflex to save your eyes.
I wonder what percentage of commercial laser pointers are Class IIIa/3R?
For the record, I did some research on lasers, because we were going to incorporate one into one of our products...until we learned how heavily regulated they are, and went with a diode that pumps out like 50x as much wattage, but doesn't fall under regulations since the emissions aren't coherent. Throughout my research, I learned that no one - literally, no one - has ever reported being injured by a Class IIIa/3R laser. The danger posed by these emissions is more theoretical than practice.
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Throughout my research, I learned that no one - literally, no one - has ever reported being injured by a Class IIIa/3R laser.
The important part here is reported. Who is going to admit that they damaged their vision after staring into a laser for 4 hours?
Re:So then... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: I'd rather not go blind (Score:5, Interesting)
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Anyway, I can smile now, but the response by many there was quite rude
http://laserpointerforums.com/f [laserpointerforums.com]
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You're not going to blind your dog. Not unless you can convince it to stare into the beam for a while, and good luck with that. I've heard of a study being done with "pointers" (and that term is very specifically directed at what you can buy in wal-mart/Staples/etc) on cow eyes and even eyes of people that were about to have them removed due to disease... Pointing into their eyes caused no detectable damage. Sorry, i can't cite the source.
As for the LPF guys being rude, keep in mind they daily deal with que
Re:So then... (Score:5, Informative)
As someone who has worked extensivly with class IIIb/IV lasers in the past (I was even licensed by the state of New York to do so) you can think of laser safety in this way:
Class i: Stare in to the beam until the end of time, no issues gaurenteed,
Class II: Stare in to the beam until the end of time, you might have some issues but probably not permanent,
Class IIIa: Your aversion reaction is fast enough for you to escape permanent damage.
Class IIIb/IV: You're fucked.
They did tests on animal eyes and eyes of people who were going to have them removed. They tested different power level until 50% of tests had damage then divided the power level by ten for the safety rating. So long as you're not an idiot (that's a stretch for most people) and you don't get your hands on some real class IIIb/IV toys you're probably not in any danger.
That being said, don't screw around with UV lasers. UV exposure is cumulative and you will get cataracts when you hit your individual exposure limit.
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Class i: Stare into the beam and you will go blind, but the beam is sealed in a DVD unit (or other closed application) that would require significant effort to expose the working laser, so staring at the outside plastic case of your DVD player will give you no issues, guaranteed.
Stare at the device all you want, you'll never see the beam. Though I've seen some top-load DC/DVD players with improperly working interlocks that would inappropriately power the laser.
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What you said/did was right on.
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Here's a couple of choice quotes:
Well, the OP was over two years ago and 1W blues had just hit the scene with certain impending doom guaranteed by those who were inclined to believe that it was imminent. Some of the early posts in this thread are downright amusing, with the general premise that the members of this forum held the key to stopping the certain influx of horrific eye injuries that were certain to start flooding in, by making sure sales were only made to "responsible buyers."
And yet, two plus years later we just haven't seen the injuries.
It is always easy to predict doom and gloom but it is always interesting to see when those predictions don't come true...
It just seems that people don't go buy 1W+ lasers and start pointing them in people's eyes.
...And from another post:
“Right now I haven’t seen an epidemic of injuries,” Dr. Bryan said, but he added that the potential was there. “In the hands of children it’s a very scary proposition.”
Injuries from momentary (accidental/unwanted) exposures: According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), as of April 2012 the FDA has never received a report of eye injury from momentary exposures to laser pointers of Class 2 and 3R power (e.g., below 5 milliwatts).
Injuries from Class 4 consumer lasers: There have been no reported injuries from commercially manufactured Class 4 consumer lasers (over 500 milliwatts of visible light), as of April 7 2012. This includes the Wicked Lasers Spyder III Arctic “1 watt” laser which first came out in August 2010, as well as similar high-power Class 4 lasers sold by other companies such as DinoDirect.com. There have been two reports of injuries from homemade or hobbyist kit Class 4 lasers, the results are minor injury and more severe.
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It's hard to measure injuries of something not actively tracked. It's like trying to find out how many pedestrians were run over by the quiet-but-deadly Prius(I'm just joking). I know researchers who literally read crash report after report by hand to classify them, and then do estimated projections. Much of the centrally tracked data is inconsistently reported, and doesn't have enough information to make correlations.
I doubt the medical field, where statistics usually takes a backseat to HIPAA, would be
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Doesn't matter, shooting a laser into somebody's eye should carry a minimum penalty of getting your ass beat.
Also, everytime I think of laser pointers I now think of this: http://www.wickedlasers.com.hk/ [wickedlasers.com.hk] . The lasers in TFA have nothing on this.
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My reaction was "So what is the brand of green laser that is putting out 65.5 mw instead of 5mw? And will ThinkGeek be buying up the remaining supply before the government confiscates it?
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My reaction was "So what is the brand of green laser that is putting out 65.5 mw instead of 5mw? And will ThinkGeek be buying up the remaining supply before the government confiscates it?
Probably any of the cheap Chinese imports you find on Ebay but don't buy one. Unscrupulous con artists remove the InfraRed filter so a laser power meter shows it as being "bright", hoping the buyer is ignorant of the fact that most of that brightness is in invisible but damaging wavelengths.
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But wouldn't that be the point? A seemingly ordinary green laser pointer, that when aimed at dry paper, can start fires?
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I laugh at your puny 65.5 mw laser: http://www.wickedlasers.com.hk/krypton [wickedlasers.com.hk]
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More dangerous, if anything. Fortunately, still relatively rare... You don't see them on sale at Staples or Office Max or the checkout counter of Wal-mart.
You can get them, but the sites that sell them are still somewhat specialized. You can get some cheap ones on amazon, but they're not "true" blue. The diodes come out of blu-ray players and SAY they are legal (5mw) but they're such cheapo chinese crap, I have heard some of them are more like 30mw. Very dangerous to your eyes. Especially since their wavele
In other news, (Score:3, Funny)
In other news, a report reports that automobiles produce too much energy and poses risks, including death, for the careless.
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In other news, a report reports that automobiles produce too much energy and poses risks, including death, for the careless.
Maybe that's why we regulate who gets to drive one?
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Given that there are pedestrians (not in a vehicle) killed crossing streets by an automobile, seemingly every day, it isn't working.
By that logic, they should ban pedestrians from walking within 20ft of any road.
Some things are dangerous and should be left dangerous. Just educate that they carry risk and responsibility.
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Given that there are pedestrians (not in a vehicle) killed crossing streets by an automobile, seemingly every day, it isn't working. By that logic, they should ban pedestrians from walking within 20ft of any road.
Some things are dangerous and should be left dangerous. Just educate that they carry risk and responsibility.
I'm guessing there are a lot less deaths than there would be if we let 12 year olds drive. The fact that something is inherently dangerous is a reason to make it safer, not to just accept any number of casualties occurring from unrestricted use. Look at the history of industrial safety if you need further convincing.
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They only regulate who drives one ON PUBLIC ROADS. Details, details.
So we require all laser pointer enthusiasts to have dome enclosures over their property as the solution to all this? I guess it could work, but I'm betting you'll have a hard time getting buy-in.
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I'm telling you guys... air is bad for you too, all that CO2 & CO, only way to stay safe is to stop breathing.
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In other news, a report reports that automobiles produce too much energy and poses risks, including death, for the careless.
I fully agree that overly powerful cars should be banned from the roads. Or at least tamed down to "normal" car levels through a "track switch" that can enable the full performance of the car for use at the track (like the Bugatti Veyron's "high speed mode" that can only be activated while stopped with a special key). They are a hazard on the roads - I don't think anyone owns a 350+ HP sports car to drive in a safe and legal manner all the time, and the car commercials (with their trained drivers on a clos
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Man...are you ever the buzzkill. I'm guessing we shouldn't be able to have corvettes or porsches, or be able to mod our cars in any fashion to go over 55mph to suit you?
Where's the fun in that? If you can't handle a performance car, don't get one...but why rain on the parade of those who can?
I'm not saying you shouldn't have fun, you should absolutely have fun on closed courses (work with your car club to shut down those fun mountain roads for your uninterupted enjoyment), just don't have your fun at the expense of innocent drivers that use the roads for transportation. And I say that as someone who lost a close friend who was T-boned by a 280Z traveling at high speed through a stop sign -- cops said the 280Z was driving so fast, that it's likely that my friend couldn't even see the car coming
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His observation m
Not just careless (Score:2)
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TFA, which has the same headline, ends by mentioning that people point them at pilots in planes taking off or landing. So way to make a misleading headline, networkworld. Not getting the traffic you want?
From TFA:
Commercial grade green and red laser pointers emit energy far beyond what is safe, posing skin, eye and fire hazards.
So what is misleading by saying "Laser Pointers Produce Too Much Energy, Pose Risk For the Careless"? Do you think everyone understands the eye risk of the laser pointed they bought on eBay and understands that aiming it on people risks eye and even skin injury, and that even an errant reflection from a shiny surface has the same danger?
At least the moon is safe of those careless people (Score:5, Interesting)
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A lobbying group composed of house cats said... (Score:5, Funny)
"We need more testing in this field, particularly on that white wall over there."
Must Not... (Score:2)
...buy lots of laser pointers.
This makes me soooo want to buy laser pointers I don't need, just because I may soon not be able to.
How unsafe would a cluster of these be...
now I just need some hydrogen balloons.
Warning (Score:2)
Life is unsafe (Score:4, Insightful)
In a similar report, we've found that 100% of lighters, knives, crampons and Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifles are outside tolerable limits for safety.
Seriously, you'll shoot your eye out, kid.
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In a similar report, we've found that 100% of lighters, knives, crampons and Official Red Ryder Carbine-Action Two-Hundred-Shot Range Model Air Rifles are outside tolerable limits for safety.
However, the researcher studying the safety of lawn darts was unavailable for comment; reports indicate he was last seen being loaded into an ambulance...
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Do not stare at lawn dart hung up in tree.
If you ignore this advice, at least move when it starts to get bigger.
Re:Life is unsafe (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell no. These are not like knives.
These laser pointers are much more dangerous that you might think. Sweep a 120mW laser across the eyes of a room full of people at 10 feet and you've just permanently damaged their retinas before anyone could blink.
Used with care, they can be crazy awesome fun and I have several, but I treat them as munitions and keep them well locked away because I'm aware of exactly what damage they can do.
You seriously do not want these in the hands of yobbos who will wave them in the eyes of the first child they see saying, "Look, lightsaber!"
If the TFA is serious... (Score:2, Insightful)
Back in the day men use to resolve these problems on their own. Why the fuck is this even neccissary, and at the very worst "harm caused by laser" in court is perfectly well covered by a gazillion pre-existing assault laws. Should be, "assault with any fucking bloody object". Make it a fucking law and stop tacking bullshit on or putting your grubby little regulatory hands into the marketplaces of this country over stupid shit.
They can have ... (Score:2)
Oh, we can do something about THAT? (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Fuck this shit. I move that every citizen of the USA shall receive from the government one glock 9 mm pistol, one box of hollow point ammunition, one multi-watt laser pointer, one... no, make that TWO extremely fucking dangerous magnets, [unitednuclear.com] and a big fucking bucket of fireworks, to do with as they please. In one year, the survivors can get together and discuss additional regulation. :-/
Re:Oh, we can do something about THAT? (Score:5, Funny)
Throw in a gallon of jeagermeister, and a 3 wheeler ATV and you have my vote! ;)
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You have my vote (Score:2)
You have my vote
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Here ya go..
http://dx.com/p/27-neocube-buckyballs-magnet-balls-36-magnets-stripes-set-golden-180954 [dx.com]
But I do agree.. I mean toys back then were awesome! Lawn darts, _real_ chemistry sets with radium and such..
Have a look at http://www.cracked.com/article_19481_the-8-most-wildly-irresponsible-vintage-toys.html [cracked.com]
I'm still in favor of Darwinism, even with children's toys.
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One retarded kid swallows a magnet, and they can ban buckyballs. A pilot or something might get blinded at some point in the future and we can ban laser pointer sales. 30,000 people a year die from gun violence and we can't even pass universal fucking background checks?
There's two simple observations to make here. First, gun owners are politically powerful and backed by the Second Amendment. Second, if someone gets shot, it's not a bureaucrat's fault. But if a kid swallows a magnet, then someone at the US Consumer Product Safety Commission has to explain why they didn't ban that product earlier.
The result is that you get a really bad case of risk adverse behavior. It's easier to ban than allow safe products that have some risk associated with them. "Safe" here doesn't
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So you're saying... (Score:2)
In other news (Score:2)
The sun emits energy far beyond what is safe, posing skin, eye and fire hazards.
List of tested lasers.... (Score:2)
...and how terribly bad they were over the safety limits?
Also, can you publish the retailers carrying them and prices, so I can surely avoid getting them? /Heading back to the Flashlight Forums to discuss my new hexa-Cree 6000 lumen pen light.
Evolution (Score:2)
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Was that trolling or an honest knee jerk reaction?
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I believe it's called satire. How can you not tell???
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Because it wasn't? [wikipedia.org]
It's not a ban. (Score:5, Insightful)
The government regulators have no desire to prevent you from buying or selling higher power lasers. They do care when you lie to your customers and tell them the lasers are less dangerous than they actually are. They care when you use shoddy manufacturing that allows harmful IR to escape the casing, while again telling the customer that they are completely shielded against this. If these lasers worked as advertized, then there wouldn't be a problem. Alternately if they were sold as class 3B devices (which is what they effectively are) there would be no problem, as the purchasers would know the risks and could plan accordingly. But they weren't and the manufacturers/importers should be held responsible for their recklessness.
Re:How else... (Score:5, Funny)
are we supposed to fight the sharks?
Just claim to be a member of the NRA and any attempt by the gummint to lower power is infringing your 2nd amendment rights.
It's the NLA, the National LASER Association, and we do have a serious lobbying effort underway.
If the founding fathers had had lasers, then they'd have done fine without France's support.
Re:How else... (Score:4, Interesting)
are we supposed to fight the sharks?
Just claim to be a member of the NRA and any attempt by the gummint to lower power is infringing your 2nd amendment rights.
It's the NLA, the National LASER Association, and we do have a serious lobbying effort underway.
If the founding fathers had had lasers, then they'd have done fine without France's support.
We of the NRGA (National Rail Gun Association) salute you.
I'll see your 30 round clip and raise you 10 pounds of 10 penny finishing nails.
Re:How else... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not so much that...as that it seems the govt. figures we are all fucking idiots that can't be trusted with our own judgment to use anything more dangerous than a butter knife, or maybe those rounded edge scissors we all got in first grade.
I sure miss lawn darts and clackers and....
Re:How else... (Score:5, Insightful)
it seems the govt. figures we are all fucking idiots that can't be trusted with our own judgment to use anything more dangerous than a butter knife, or maybe those rounded edge scissors we all got in first grade
I think thats pretty accurate for how a very large number of people in the country should be treated. I definitely don't want a lot of people I know with a commercial laser, as I do like my eyesight. I have a 500 lumen flashlight (its really really bright in a tightly focused beam) and the number of people I told "don't point it at your face because its incredibly bright", that did exactly that is astounding. When I asked why? their response was its only a flashlight... I've seen several people do that with lasers too. Not to mention that is the governments targeted mentality with their current form of "education".
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I bought an overpowered green laser "pointer" because it seemed neat-o. I keep it in a safe with my firearms, primarily because I have young children. The laser has zero practical value, although it is fun to pop dark-colored balloons with.
I have learned that anytime I show it to someone, if I let them handle it, they do something stupid with it. No matter how much I try to explain the importance of behaving responsibly, people don't get it.
Re:How else... (Score:4, Informative)
it's actually quite useful for pointing out stars and dark sky features.
Re:How else... (Score:4, Insightful)
I bought an overpowered green laser "pointer"
I didn't.
My experience with other people and normal-powered lasers means I wouldn't trust anybody else to have it within a mile of other people's eyes. Constantly having to tell people "no" and "because you're an idiot, that's why" isn't worth it.
Re:How else... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not a big fan of guns being easily available to all, but in my opinion guns have more practical/reasonable uses than high powered handheld lasers.
Yes you can use those lasers to point at stuff in the sky. And get yourself in big trouble if an aircraft happens to be in the area. I say use a lighted extendable stick instead.
With guns, you can't shoot continuously for minutes. With lasers you can. If you pick the right scenario (everyone looking at the same area) you can blind a lot of people.
Couldn't a high powered laser be used as a defensive device? If someone tries to rob you, you could blind them, perhaps irreparably. Though a bit macabre, in many cases that might be a better option than simply killing them with a gun (let it be known, though, that if someone broke into my house and I had a laser and a gun... I'd grab the gun).
XKCD On 1W Lasers (Score:3, Funny)
From XKCD What-If #13: [xkcd.com]
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Ah, in favor of tyranny - what a surprise. You'll be glad to know you're not alone - intellectuals have been speaking the same words as you, but calling it Coercive Paternalism instead so it sounds good. [amazon.com]
"In this book, Sarah Conly rejects the idea of autonomy as inviolable. Thus in many cases it would advance our goals more effectively if government were to prevent us from acting in accordance with our decisions. Her argument challenges widely held views of moral agency, democratic values and the public/p
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"figures we are all fucking idiots" more like "KNOWS MOST of us are fucking idiots". Some~most people have poor judgement, and no one really cares about saving them from themselves, but instead keeping by-standards from being victims of their poor judgement. It's why we can't have nice things. Shouldn't everyone get to have nuclear weapons?
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... by-standards ...
I'm not standard. I'm a special unique snowflake no matter where I stand!
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"KNOWS MOST of us are fucking idiots".
After all, how else can they explain how they got elected.
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"Simply" changing the level?
A LOT of things are different whenever you change levels. For instance, Class I devices do not need emission indicators. But higher powered lasers do need emission indicators. In fact, they need fail-safe emission indicators, which typically means using two LEDs and two current limiting resistors and two GPIO pins on your microcontroller. Not only that, but the color of the emission indicator must be substantially different from the emissions themselves, so that an operator w
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Not very effective at removing idiots from the gene pool, unless people are aiming them at their genitals.
Blindness will not prevent idiots from reproducing....