USPS Discriminates Against 'Atheist' Merchandise 1121
fish waffle writes "Suspecting that their strongly branded 'Atheist' products may be treated differently by more religiously-oriented postal regions, Kickstarter success Atheist Shoes conducted an experiment. They sent 178 packages to 89 people in different parts of the U.S., each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not. The results: packages with the atheist label were nearly 10 times more likely to be 'lost,' and took on average 3 days longer to show up when they did. Control experiments were also done in Europe and Germany — it's definitely a USPS problem."
Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they are simply falling prey to Acts of God.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
is it an act of god if it's an act by a god warrior?
(technically I suppose it is, since everything is if you're into that kind of thinking).
makes those losing the packages pretty lousy christians though. USPS should run a sting on them.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Two packages sent on the same day, and under normal conditions expected to arrive on the same day. Exactly which weather conditions and other natural causes are you thinking of that could make one of them arrive days later than the other?
One side of the road was slippery, so the half of the USPS van carrying of of the packages hit a tree, while the half of the same van carrying the other package continued?
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Informative)
What, exactly, do you mean by "it wasn't a statistical sample"? "Statistical sample" is not a statistical term.
It was a perfectly valid sample over delivery routes, it had a meaningful if not fabulous N, and it also had a control that most data can only dream of. The non-response rate was 4 out of the 89, which means that there really wasn't a chance of selective response removing the significance.
And all the packages WERE NOT delivered. 9 out of 89 packages "atheist" packages never arrived, versus 1 out of 89 "non-atheist" packages. Do 10 percent of your packages get lost? Because I order a lot of stuff by mail, and I don't see lost packages enough to even notice it.
p=.018 on the lost packages. Medical studies wish they could hit that kind of significance on a regular basis. p.001 and a huge effect size on the delays; that sort of thing is treated as more or less certainty in a lot of places, including biology and all of the social sciences.
The only way you could invalidate that would be if you assumed that somebody was outright lying: either the people running the study, or a LOT of the recipients.
I'm forced to conclude that you wouldn't know a "statistical sample" if it bit you on the behind.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm forced to conclude that you wouldn't know a "statistical sample" if it bit you on the behind.
Umm... Got some numbers to back that up :-)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously? Christian fundamentalist freak out that 2/3 of their kids don't go to church after they leave home, the fraction of "nones" among young people keeps climbing, and books describing the virtues of atheism are on bestseller lists.
Sure, religious people tend to breed more, but just like with anti-gay sentiment, the moment those kids hit the real world (with all of those "other" ideas) they start questioning their beliefs, mostly become more moderate, and a bunch of them drop it all together.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Informative)
Christian parents freak out when their kids don't want to go to church, because a key Christian belief is that there will be a day when we are all judged by God. According to Christian theology, everyone has sinned, and so only those who accepted Jesus as their king and savior will be granted eternal life in paradise. Those who do not, at best have oblivion and at worst eternal punishment, depending on which version of Christian theology you ask.
So given those assumptions, perhaps you can see why parents would be deeply concerned as to whether or not their children are showing signs of following Jesus.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Interesting)
In the event that their belief system were true, either A. That wouldn't be my parents in heaven (whiping out the memories that shape a person, makes it no longer the same person per my definitions) or B. Christians really are heartless people putting on a guise... no rational caring being could calmly sit by while 2/3rds of the worlds population is tortured for all of eternity... if they can they are monsters.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Informative)
And yet atheists are still the least liked [about.com] segment of society. We're held in even less esteem than muslims.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4)
Perhaps it has something to do with a vocal minority of atheists just being agnostics with anger management issues.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you interpret an expression of lack of belief as "being a dick"? Why is saying "there is a god" not being a dick, but saying "there is no god" being a dick? Why is it OK for christians to shove their religion down my throat, but not OK for me to even make you aware that I exist?
e.g. Here's a case [inquisitr.com] where atheists have merely informed the community that they exist. "We are here and we are good people too." That's all it took to rile up the christians.
No, atheists aren't dicks. It's the thin skinned theists who can't stand the tiniest bit of dissent who are the dicks.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
Extrapolating those two data points, I predict that in about 80 years or so, there will be zero christians born.
Re: Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your kids will be atheist because of the over bearing ignorant parents. Werent people more religious a generation ago?
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
Why do I only have mod points on the weeks when there's nothing to Mod up?????
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Informative)
Unlikely, atheists have by far the lowest criminality of any religion type.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
why not? the people @ atheist shoes obviously believe in soles.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Informative)
As an atheist, I don't have "faith" in the absence of god - I just look at the available evidence and realise that gods are equivalent to invisible pink unicorns. I don't have faith that invisible pink unicorns don't exist, I just haven't seen any evidence to support their existence (and thus I believe that only fools would think they exist).
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
You aren't going to turn somebody away from their beliefs by calling them foolish and marginalizing them. All you'll manage to do is keep them from working with you in areas where you could have had common ground.
On the bright side, I do love the irony of athiests letting themselves get drawn into a holy war...
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Interesting)
As an atheist, I always try to be sensitive to other people's beliefs (except on Slashdot) and I don't go around criticising anyone's belief systems unless they're trying to convert me. I did once get into a discussion with a Hare Krishna about why he should convert to worshipping Cthulhu, but it was good natured and he was the one who asked me about my beliefs.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Informative)
Here's the beginning part of the Wikipedia article about faith:
Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a deity or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It may also be belief that is not based on proof.
In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence. For example, faith can be applied to predictions of the future, which (by definition) has not yet occurred.
The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
Here's the beginning part of the Wikipedia article about faith:
Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a deity or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It may also be belief that is not based on proof.
People seem to have a lot of faith in Wikipedia...
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Informative)
> Okay, so on what grounds would you reject that belief?
There are many conflicting propositions and no good way to choose between them.
Such propositions are largely irrelevant to my daily life. Outside of unproven notions regarding punishment after death, there's really no compelling reason to bother with any of them.
Pascal's wager must be considered for all religions, not just one you happen to elevate above the others.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
However, everyone knows that rainbows are actually the poops from the pink invisible unicorns. That's more than enough evidence that they exist.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Informative)
Its an old saying, but appropriate in this context:
If atheism is a religion, then "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Informative)
Meanwhile in Belgium a report was just published on "how to integrate muslims : reasonable demands" by the minister for integration.
Of course no searches on such a document, nor on Maggie De Block, the Minister for Secretary of State for Asylum, Immigration and Social Integration find anything remotely like this.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Funny)
*I've lived in rural Oklahoma for nearly seven years and I have never met more maladjusted, sexually-closeted weirdos in my entire life...
Maybe that's why they lived in *sparsely populated* rural Oklahoma? Every place has weirdos, just look at the high concentration on Slashdot.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would God make USPS look like they're doing it?
If it was God, this would happen everywhere.
Maybe God hates USPS.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe God hates USPS.
Well everybody else does
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Funny)
"Control experiments were done in Europe and Germany". In theory that removes the God factor,
God only lives in the US now.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
And now we wonder why the US is becoming eerily similar to Nazi Germany.
Because of christainity. III Reich was christian to the bone. And nazi murderers had "Gott mit Uns" on their belt buckles.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
You're overplaying the occult aspects, I think. The majority of the NSDAP platform was always about appealing to conservative Christian sentiment, a strategy that worked so well because of the cultural memory of the Holy Roman Empire. With the exception of Wewelsburg Castle, which was really more Himmler's fetish than Hitler's, most of the pagan cultural symbology employed by the Nazis was either already adopted by the Christians in the region, or could be interpreted as a means of further strengthening the German cultural identity. It's not that much different from the BNP invoking mediaeval English lore or Confederate separatists in the US invoking the KKK. Otherwise, it wouldn't have worked as well as it did.
It's probably also worth mentioning that Nietzsche's philosophies were (a) so misunderstood by popular culture that by the time Hitler used them it was in direct contradiction of some of his objectives, (b) mostly about self-actualisation and fulfilment, despite using 'Master' and 'Slave' terminology, and (c) only prone to mentioning paganism as a literary crutch, the same way we might casually reference Cupid when talking about Valentine's day. Nietzsche explicitly damns polytheism in The Gay Science, pointing out how convenient it is to blame any impulse on a god.
I get the feeling you watch a lot of the History Channel. Stop doing that.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most athiests are worse than christians about preaching their beliefs at any cost.
No. Most christians are. Or most insert least favourite ideology here.
It all boils down to confirmation bias. If a christian tells you he was in church on Sunday, you don't call it preaching. If an atheist tells you, he wasn't, it was preaching to you. If someone doesn't even mention where he was on Sunday, you just assume he's christian and not talking about his beliefs.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Interesting)
The job description for Christian is to spread the word.
Atheists have no such commission, strictly voluntary.
Also, the definition of Christian is used pretty damn loosely around here.
Most claiming Christianity aren't. They just claim it because they attend church or got dunked in a baptismal pool at some time or another.
There is no Christianity in their life outside the church, but they tell themselves they are Christians and gain an unworthy sense of superiority by holding others up to their " standard", whatever that is.
These people are the real reason Atheism is popular.
Case in point, the story of the founder of the Satan Church, Anton LaVey, who confirmed his oft told story to me.
He was an organ player for a travelling carnival, playing the strip shows and on Sunday there was a tent service he would play with many of the same people showing up. The two faces shown by these people disgusted Anton to the point of a formal protest. He founded Satan Church and wrote the Satanic Bible, not as a religion proper, but a protest against the duality he saw in "Christians". Like $cientology, he even boasted star power like Sammy Davis Jr.(that was a Baphomet medallion around his neck, not St.anything.) and Jane Mansfield (just lost her head over it, lol)
I reaffirm the original poster who said "Most atheists are worse than Christians about preaching their beliefs at any cost." This has been my experience. I would even put $cientologists and Subgeniuses ahead of Christians on that list, as well.
Re: Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
Most atheists hide their beliefs.
It's natural to do so in the US, since atheists are discriminated against.
You have selection bias, since you assume those that don't claim to be atheists are not. Which clearly isn't necessarily true.
Re:Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
"If someone doesn't even mention where he was on Sunday, you just assume he's christian and not talking about his beliefs."
Only if you are talking about Americans. Where I live, people go to church... when someone dies, maybe for weddings, but rarely, and sometimes for Xmas. If people don't tell where they went on Sunday... I have no idea what they did. Best guess would be: stayed at home (not necessarily their own home though) with hangover.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, atheists are far worse. A secular person tells me they were at church, I say to myself "and I care why?" But man, how atheists go on and on and on and on and on.... about how stupid it is to believe in god. At least the secular people mention it in passing and move on.
They don't always act that way. On either side of the camp. I know (and live with) atheists who really don't care what you choose to believe, as long as you're not foisting it on everybody around you. I also know of several Christian groups who see it as their calling to evangelize to the world. Hint: they have the word "evangelical" in their name....
In my own belief structure, teaching that kind of knowledge to somebody who hasn't come to you seeking it is one of the worst things you can do to a person. I will not state whether I believe in a god, many gods, or none at all, but perhaps that belief about evangelism is something we can all take to heart?
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Insightful)
The only point in time when you are stumbling on atheists being different than you is when an atheist actually tells you that he thinks differently than you. Some people are disturbed by this and then call the atheist obnoxious and noisy.
Much ado about nothing. (Score:4, Insightful)
What the hell is an atheist product? Practically everything is an atheist product.
Re:Much ado about nothing. (Score:5, Funny)
Something with good enough QA that you do not need to pray it keeps working.
Re:Much ado about nothing. (Score:4, Informative)
It's a brand, mostly shoes. Here's a link:
http://www.atheistberlin.com/ [atheistberlin.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Its a brand of shoes for hipsters. You know, the ones wearing skinny jeans with the cuff rolled up and no socks? Tis a shame really, look like pretty well made shoes.
Re:Much ado about nothing. (Score:5, Funny)
but these are shoes. they can go to either heaven or hell 'cause they've got soles.
Kudos to Red Dwarf.
Re:Much ado about nothing. (Score:5, Funny)
Lister: Sometimes, I think it's cruel giving machines a personality. My mate Petersen once bought a pair of shoes with Artificial Intelligence. 'Smart Shoes' they were called. It was a neat idea. No matter how blind drunk you were, they could always get you home. But he got rattled one night in Oslo and woke up the next morning in Burma. You see, his shoes got bored going from his local to his flat. They wanted to see the world, you know. He had a hell of a job getting rid of them. No matter who he sold them to, they'd show up again the next day. He tried to shut them out, but they just kicked the door down.
Rimmer: Is this true?
Lister: Yeah. The last thing I heard, they sort of... robbed a car and drove it into a canal. They couldn't steer, you see.
Rimmer: Really?
Lister: Yeah. Petersen was really, really blown away about it. He went to see a priest. The priest told him... he said it was alright and all that, when shoes are happy that they'd get into heaven. You see, it turns out shoes have 'soles'.
Rimmer: Ah, what a sad story. Wait a minute.
[Thinks for a minute]
Rimmer: How did they open the car door?
More testing required (Score:5, Funny)
Need to post some boxes that say 'contains god' and see if it gets there quicker than the control.
Re:More testing required (Score:5, Interesting)
As well if the word "Islam" has a greater or lesser effect than "Atheist".
Re:More testing required (Score:4, Informative)
Ugh, the rapist and atheist being equally distrusted isn't an accurate interpretation there. They asked people if their parked car had a hit and run happen to it, which of the following would the runner most likely be: christian, Islamic, rapist, or atheist. There are are a lot more atheists than rapists probably a lot more atheists than Muslims in the US... people know this at a very basic level, it's going to affect how they answer a question like that.
"it's definitely a USPS problem."? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds more like a USA problem than a USPS problem, this being an outlier of religious beliefs among wealthy nations [pewglobal.org]. Atheist Shoes needed to send packages via FedEx and UPS in the same way to actually test this, and apparently didn't.
Atheist Shoes? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Atheist Shoes? (Score:4, Funny)
No they are made out of atheists. The crazy bible belt people got it all wrong.
Tracking devices... (Score:5, Interesting)
It would be really interesting to do this experiment with tracking devices that logged their GPS locations periodically over 3G, and had multiple week-long battery life. The 'lost' packages could be tracked and it could be determined where they ended up. Mail fraud is a federal crime, but if it became a big national story with media shining light on the person(s) who were caught doing it, then it would likely result in some change, people going to prison, and the system improving to better serve the recipients of packages.
Re:Tracking devices... (Score:5, Insightful)
It certainly is a lovely fantasy to believe that the US media would ever shine light on discrimination against atheists, but one should generally try to stay a bit more in touch with reality.
Europe and Germany? (Score:4, Interesting)
Is Germany suddenly no longer part of Europe?
Cover up or black out any old labels and markings (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone who's ever actually sent a package through USPS should know that they explicitly recommend you destroy or cover any non-USPS related markings or labels, explaining that it may lead to delays or failure to deliver.
=Smidge=
Re:correlation (Score:5, Insightful)
Their experiment is not correllation/causation.
They have identified something which is painfully obvious. The samples in this experiment are large enough to prove that the atheist branding has affect on the delivery and that it only happens like this in the US.
This detail difference is a strong indicator as to the motivations behind what is going on. In short, "unprofessional behavior." With all the troubles the USPS is having, these professionals should be more concerned about delivering value in the service they provide. Instead, the political affiliations (religion is politics, don't kid yourself) of participants entrusted with delivery are affecting how well they do their jobs.
When they are at home or in their groups, let them say and think whatever they want. Let them march and protest and hold up signs expressing themselves. But when they are out there delivering things? Now they are interfering with commerce. Sorry, hommies, but government doesn't play dat.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, hommies, but government doesn't play dat.
I'm thinking that results of the experiment disagree with you.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Interesting)
Now repeat the experiment with labels saying things like
'porn'
'lots of money inside'
'this package contains: newest iPhone'
I'm really interested in the outcome.
New theory: people love atheist products, so they get snatched more often by the postman.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Insightful)
I once did an internship for a company that shipped second hand business (=expensive) computer hardware on pallets.
Depending on which delivery service they used (I won't name the company), the products were either wrapped in clear foil or more expensive black foil.
Apparently, if they didn't wrap it in black foil, the chances of the pallet being lost increased significantly.
More on topic; as somebody pointed out on that shoe-company site; postal services are supposed to look for suspiciously marked packages. A package heavily marked "Atheist" might be considered a be a bit suspicious, especially in the US where the issue of religion seems to be a bit more polarized anyway. Screaming a (non-)religious opinion where non it expected does generally make one stand out from the crowd.
They should have included packages marked "Muslim", "Christian", "Neo-nazi" and "Non-religious", but I doubt the shoe-company would have ended up with the same amount of free advertising.
Re: (Score:3)
And what, throw anything more 'suspicious' looking away 10 times as often as they normal? Sounds like a pretty stupid idea even if that was what they were trying to do.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Insightful)
I noticed the same comment and it struck me as incredibly stupid.
USA post offices look for abnormal packages. Most drugs are sent in unusual packages so they are opened searched and resealed. If the tape said "GOD'S LAST STAND!" or "HAIL MARY!" you would have seen the same problem. One of those would have made for a better control.
I have my doubts about the drug thing. Why would people send their drugs in packages that look suspicious? Of course, if the post office only searches suspicious packages, all the drugs they'll find will be in suspicious packages, so mabye they feel like they are on the right track...
Now just because it is stupid, does not mean it can't be a real post office guideline.
Re:correlation (Score:4, Insightful)
The pastor of the local Presbyterian church in America isn't likely to raise up a mob to come beat you to death if you're accused of burning a Bible.
It isn't. Neither is the USA. (Score:3, Insightful)
"I'll explain right after you explain to me why Afghanistan under Taliban regime should be considered average with regards religious polarization."
It isn't. Neither is the USA.
Hence the request.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Informative)
Well, the same experiment with "fragile" boxes containing an accelerometer showed that they get beaten up far, far worse than an unmarked box.
Of course, for that one, we didn't really need more proof - I get somewhere around 100 assorted deliveries per year, all in great shape; even when they arrive in torrential rain and sit outside all day, I find them neatly bagged, perfectly safe and dry... Unless the sender stupidly marked them "fragile". Then I get a box at least badly frayed on all sides, often damp (even when delivered in dry weather, seriously, WTF), frequently with the corners blown out or other large inexplicable holes in the sides. I honestly don't think I've ever received a "fragile" package that didn't look like a second-hand box-fort from Afghanistan.
Sad, really... I mean, most of us don't exactly love our jobs. We may enjoy some parts of it, but on the whole, we'd still rather sleep in. But we get up every day to earn an honest day's pay. If you need to slack off a bit, hey, just don't get caught; but when you start taking out your lack of a fulfilling life on the very products they pay you to handle - GTFO.
Re:correlation (Score:4, Insightful)
USPS != UPS
They are completely different organizations. USPS is the United States Postal Service, i.e. the government corporation that pretends to deliver crap. UPS = United Parcel Service, i.e. those brown-shirted dudes who intentionally smash your package with hammers to make it fit in the truck.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Funny)
USPS is the United States Postal Service, i.e. the government corporation that pretends to deliver crap.
So then, don't taunt them by putting tape with the word Atheist on it...
UPS = United Parcel Service, i.e. those brown-shirted dudes who intentionally smash your package with hammers to make it fit in the truck.
So then, don't taunt them by putting tape with the word Fragile on it...
Re:correlation (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, IAAS (I am a statistician) and the statistical tests that they used are the appropriate ones for this study. Assuming they're not faking the data, they have done the analysis correctly.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Informative)
This detail difference is a strong indicator as to the motivations behind what is going on. In short, "unprofessional behavior." With all the troubles the USPS is having, these professionals should be more concerned about delivering value in the service they provide. Instead, the political affiliations (religion is politics, don't kid yourself) of participants entrusted with delivery are affecting how well they do their jobs.
Unless the "lost" packages are the result of "concerned citizens" swiping them off of porches/out of mailboxes and tossing them in the trash (or into the book-burning-mobile). I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Funny)
In a universe sadly not our own, someone resembling Morgan Freeman appears behind those people and asks them to guess which commandment they're breaking.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Informative)
I grew up in a "religiously oriented" part of the US and had so many Darwin fish vandalized or removed from my pickup that I eventually switched to sticker on the inside of the rear window. After that I just got nasty notes and middle fingers from other drivers.
So this surprises you, somehow? You freely acknowledge that you grew up in an area with a lot of fundamentalists, and are surprised that people might be offended by you loudly advertising your belief in something that disagrees with their beliefs?
You're as bad as the Christians, if you don't understand why they may be offended by that.
No, you inferred surprise. At the time I was a teenager and felt the need to distinguish my truck from all the Jesus fish, bumper stickers telling me I was going to hell, crucifixes hanging from rearview mirrors, etc. Now I don't own a car and live in a town that is ~80% atheist/non-religious.
And no, I'm not as bad as the Christians because I never vandalized their cars, accosted them on the street, kicked them out of the Boy Scouts, got the middle school science teacher fired, or protected the pedophile gym teacher because of their religious views. Personally I think that it is childish to flip off a stranger because something on their car offends you.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Insightful)
You sound like you're excusing the fundies' behavior and blaming the victim. If that's not your intent, reconsider how you communicate.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:correlation (Score:4, Insightful)
Large samples? 1 non-branded and 9 branded articles went missing. That's not a huge number of cases to examine. The "3 days longer" statistic seems to be massively skewed by a single non-representative parcel that took 37 days later than its counterpart
I would suggest that you take a relevant course in statistics. It is pretty obvious that you are rambling and reasoning without any understanding of the topic.
And even if their statistics were correct
The linked report clearly states the statistical methods they used and the results. If you want to criticize, just point out the incorrect statistical test and why it is not suitable in this situation, or why their conclusions are wrong. If you can't do that, you have no basis saying that their statistics are incorrect.
all they have demonstrated is that branded parcels took longer than unbranded
No. They have demonstrated that Atheist branded parcels took longer than unbranded parcels.
Re:correlation (Score:5, Interesting)
Hard to see how the 9:1 ratio of lost packages could be such an anomaly though...
It's not the ratio - it's the fact that it's based on only 10 events. Just think - if one more non-branded package had gone through, the ratio would have halved. When would that next parcel have been lost? Would it have been on the 90th send, or the 180th? We don't know. If you were trying for statistical rigour, you'd want to repeat the experiment until you were satisfied that a few extra events on either side wouldn't have a significant event. Consider, if they'd had 90 branded lost, and 10 non-branded lost, the ratio would have made exactly the same as presented, but an extra event on either side would have had a far lower impact on the actual ratio.
Re:correlation (Score:4, Insightful)
If the "average of 3 days longer" statistic is really caused by that single outlier
What the fuck.
..at least estimate the division in your head.. "37 D divided by 89 P ... thats not anywhere near 3.0 D / P and therefore couldn't possibly explain the on average 3.0 D / P extra travel time claimed, so anyone who suggested it is fucking stupid."
37 days over 89 packages is only 0.4157 days / package.
You seem to be pretending to use your brains by talking like maybe you might be, but for fuck sakes..
Re:About as scientific as Wakefield study (Score:5, Informative)
A true study would have equal numbers marked and unmarked. Also, did they change their origination point? If not, that could also skew the data.
If I had a dollar every time an atheist cried like a little bitch.....
I guess not reading the article makes you ask stupid questions.
Equal number of marked & unmarked packages. both sent out at the same time. both sent to the same address. They did this with 89 different people.
Re:About as scientific as Wakefield study (Score:5, Interesting)
RTFA
each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not
So equal numbers marked and unmarked. Can't get more equal than 1:1 ratio. (actually this was in the summary, so RTFS).
They all left Berlin
The "origination point" was outside the US. Packages that did not go through the US were not delayed or lost. Wherever in the US the problem is, the problem is at the USPS. Whether some locations in the US may or may not treat marked "atheist" mail better or worse does not make the general issue any better.
If I had a piece of earwax every time some religious person tried to make up excuses for his fellow religious men, I'd have more dollars worth or earwax than you would have.
FWIW, one of the 89 unmarked packages was lost too, so USPS is doing a bad job either way.
Re: (Score:3)
Surely the research has many flaws, but they sent out 89 unmarked packages and 89 marked packages. 1 unmarked package was lost, 9 unmarked packages. Already this is much more than just a statistical anomally. The probability of this being a random occurance is incredibly slim.
If you consider losing even 2 packages out of 89 to be normal,the chance of losing 9 packages out of 89 is less than 0.001%.
Re:About as scientific as Wakefield study (Score:5, Insightful)
A single unlucky or freak event could affect multiple samples (for example if a sack holding 6 atheist packages gets lost or damaged).
To use a classic example. I could carry out a survey for people's favourite dog and have 99 out of 100 say poodle. If you assumed it to be truly random, the chances of that not indicating that American is a nation of poodle lovers is astronomical. However what if I then revealed that all these people had been asked in the same morning at the national poodle lovers convention? Would my survey still be nailed on? Even if I went to great lengths to randomly pick random attendees?
Re:That's awesome (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Just like Hitler, they went for the Poles first.
Re: (Score:3)
"Just like Hitler, they went for the Poles first"
I thought the Nowegians were the first to the Poles (Nort and south anyway)
Re: (Score:3)
Your presumption that just because God *won't* do something means he *can't* do it is flawed.
There's plenty of crap a sentient being can refrain from doing that it's perfectly capable of.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
shoes cant believe in god silly, they have no soul
Re:Sorry if I sound dumb (Score:4, Funny)
If your shoes have no sole you need to return them ASAP for a refund.
Re:Sorry if I sound dumb (Score:4, Funny)
It's a sandal!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you read the article, they did lose 11 packages, which is why they conducted the study in the first place.
Re:I don't believe it. (Score:5, Informative)
That is what the article says.
Maybe because your experience doesn't include shipping packages with prominent 'Atheist' branding?
Yeesssss... And less than 1% of non-Atheist branded packages were lost.
Yes, you certainly seem to be hard of understanding.
Re:I don't believe it. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would believe it if it were done by an impartial third party with a good reputation for professional survey taking, such as J.D. Power & Associates.
Oh this one was done by Atheist Shoes themselves? Nevermind.
Logical fallacy, appeal to authority. If you have a particular problem with the statistical methods involved, which are described in the article, you should raise that issue. But your comment as it stands is utterly without merit.
Re:moral luxury (Score:5, Funny)
Cast off the shoe, Follow the gourd!
Re:"10 times more likely to be lost" (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, 178 packages.
How do you get that, from 11 missing out of 178? Even if had been 11 out of 89, it wouldn't be 'the majority'.
10 out of 89 'Atheist' branded packages were 'lost'. 1 out of 89 non-branded packages were lost.
Heh.
Their evidence suggesting the USPS discriminates against atheism is a hell of a lot stronger than any religion has for the existence of their Gods.
Re:"10 times more likely to be lost" (Score:5, Interesting)
So when they repeat the experiment, and they lose 11 of the marked packages and 0 of the unmarked does is suddenly become "USPS loses infinitely more of our packages" or conversely 10 of one and 2 of the other "5 times more likely"
I don't even know the name of your logical fallacy, but creating a situation which didn't happen in your mind and then commenting on it is definitely one of them.
There's also the issue of controlling for sample bias, I'm guessing that the recipients were either existing punters or friends (hence participating in the experiment) and could thus conveniently "lose" their marked packages
And I'm sure you're a rapist and mass murderer.
Re:Another possibility (Score:5, Informative)
Apparently applying good scientific standards to an experiment is flamebait.
I'm sure there's something to be said about blindly accepting the results of flawed experiments so long as they match your beliefs here...
While we seldom read the article it's still acceptable to read the summary.
" They sent 178 packages to 89 people in different parts of the U.S., each person receiving one package prominently branded as 'Atheist' merchandise, and one not."
Every person was sent two packages, one marked "Atheist" and one unmarked. Since the packages were sent to different parts of the U.S. we know that the delayed "Atheist" packages weren't on the same truck. That invalidates his entire post from the summary alone.
If we now read the article we also know that the packages were all sent at the same time and to 49 different states. From this we know that a normal sorting of the two packages going to the same person should have made the two packages follow the same path the entire way, going on the same truck and be delivered at the same time.
With a bad sorting and just random delivery the average delay should have been the same between the two packages.
The fact that 9 packages marked with "Atheist" never were delivered and that only one unmarked went missing could be explained with regular disgruntled employees stealing packets marked with a known brand. (Even if the shoe size is most likely wrong.)
The average extra delay of three days can not be explained that way. We can remove the out-lier in Michigan that was delayed with 37 days and get the average down to 2.5 days but it is still pretty clear that "Atheist"-market packages are specifically removed from regular deliveries to make the recipient suffer.
The thing where the delay was different between different destination also indicates that this isn't a single person early in the chain of delivery that did this but rather that it is a distributed occurrence.
There are a lot of conclusions we can't make from this test but as long as those conclusions aren't made I wouldn't call it a flawed experiment.
You should also note that the reason the shoe brand decided to do this experiment was because they noticed a trend among customer complaints in the U.S. and that some customers requested that the package were to be sent unmarked.
Re:Maybe it was the labelling (Score:5, Funny)
I think you missed the point of the story - USPS cross-checked the packages and finding no cross, discarded them.