America's First Eco-City: Doomed From the Start 258
An anonymous reader writes "Despite backing from the Clinton Climate Initiative, and a $111 million investment from Subway Restaurant mogul Fred DeLuca, a planned city for Central Florida called 'Destiny' was doomed from the start, according to memos retrieved from Florida's Department of Community Affairs. According to state officials, despite a great deal of hype about Destiny, Florida, becoming the first fully sustainable city in the U.S., plans to build the city were rejected almost immediately due to concerns over 'possible urban sprawl, energy inefficient land use patterns, the endangerment of natural resources, and the undermining of agriculture.'"
Undermining of Agriculture .... (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of things get killed when they get in the way of this industry. Wasn't long ago Florida officials would show up at your house and cut down your citrus trees because of "undermining of agriculture".
Re:Undermining of Agriculture .... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of things get killed when they get in the way of this industry.
It seems to me that the green movement only sees things one way. When environmental concerns are used to stop industry, thats stopping evil industry. But then when those same environmental concerns are used to stop their own poorly planned out project, its suddenly industry thats the bad guy again.
Then they try to vilify specific right wing groups by name, such as libertarians and the tea party. Proof is on the same page as this post.
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These arguments are hypocritical. If Florida really believed the shit they said to stop this development, then more than half the development in Florida would have never happened. But let's face it, Florida is a warm storage facility for dying people that most of us are hoping (secretly or not) will get wiped out by some sort of massive wave, and their primary exports are citrus (better from Mexico anyway) and bad legislation.
I have nothing against vilifying specific groups by name, on either side, if they
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except : this thing isn't build by the green movement, just some investment bankers trying to go with the hype.
No true Scotsmen then?
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I'll raise you a Scotsmen and call on your Strawman.
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More like a Spaniard in a kilt.
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More like a Spaniard in a kilt.
or a Maltese transvestite.
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"no longer will enforce the ban on residential"
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The "possible" bit likely only applied to "urban sprawl". It definitely didn't apply to "the undermining of agriculture". Unless you think "and possible the undermining of agriculture" is grammatically correct.
Doomed? (Score:5, Funny)
You had me at Florida.
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Florida Man [twitter.com], the world's worst superhero.
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Florida - the only state in the nation where the further north you go, the further south you are.
How hard can it be? (Score:2)
I'm good at Sim City. Obviously they hired the wrong guy for the job.
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Title (Score:2)
Am I the only one who first read the title as "America's First Eco-City: Domed From the Start"?
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The error they made (Score:5, Funny)
The city should have been domed, then it might not have been doomed. With a domed city nobody can get away, then they have to stay and make it work, and the city isn't doomed.
It is the logic of SciFi, it is the logic of the future.
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I'm watching a documentary about a town in Maine that tried that. Doesn't look like it worked out too well for them.
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One of the key points sometimes missed is to leave air holes. Forget that and, well.....
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Just another Florida land scam... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/crime-law/delray-beach-developer-anthony-pugliese-charged-wi/nSpp7/ [palmbeachpost.com]
EPCOT turned out a little funny, too. (Score:3)
EPCOT stands for "Experimental Planned Community of Tomorrow." It was supposed to be a town, not a theme park. Funny how these things go.
Re:EPCOT turned out a little funny, too. (Score:5, Interesting)
EPCOT stands for "Experimental Planned Community of Tomorrow." It was supposed to be a town, not a theme park. Funny how these things go.
If Walt hadn't died, that may have happened. He needed the money from the Magic Kingdom to finance his EPCOT plans, and he died before the MK even opened. After his death, the Walt Disney Company decided that they didn't want to be in the business of building cities. Celebration, FL [wikipedia.org] has some elements of Walt Disney's EPCOT ideas.
Re:EPCOT turned out a little funny, too. (Score:5, Funny)
Anything you build in Florida turns into a theme park. Universal Studios? That was supposed to be a strip mall. Sea World? It was originally a Red Lobster.
Shame that they closed the Apollo Ride (Score:2)
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They eventually created Celebration which is a more realistic take on what EPCOT was supposed to be.
Regulation Death (Score:4, Insightful)
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I think it's a mentality now of not doing anything big. Trains a couple of decades behind Japan in 1968 and not much new infrastructure since Nixon. It's not a Green Groups/EPA/Agriculture/Neighborhood Groups problem since whenever big money is involved all of those get bulldozed over very quickly. Follow the money instead of blaming people without it.
Nice name (Score:4, Funny)
"Destiny," that's up there with Why, Arizona, or Idiotville, Oregon. I mean, a fully sustainable community blazing a path to the glorious Green future shouldn't have a name that makes you think about putting dollar bills in G strings, mkay?
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And possibly a little confusing, too, considering that Florida has a city named Destin.
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"Destiny," that's up there with Why, Arizona, or Idiotville, Oregon. I mean, a fully sustainable community blazing a path to the glorious Green future shouldn't have a name that makes you think about putting dollar bills in G strings, mkay?
How else did you expect young people to work in such a middle of nowhere place?
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Destiny - Bing Images [bing.com] Some interminable bromides, an R&B vocal trio, a Halo expansion pack - and some major league tatas. [/cross legs]
Wrong name (Score:2)
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That's in Texas.
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Everything is in Texas. That's why they had to start using names like "West" and "White Settlement".
I know why it failed....or is failing... (Score:3)
They allowed politicians to be a part of the process. Politicians know NOTHING about land use, management, etc.. Your city planner is a complete and utter moron when it comes to the job they have, city planning.
None of the homes need to be larger than 850 sq foot. Making a city self sustaining is certainly possible if you do three things.
1 - gather all leaders into one place.
2 - Lock all of them in a big room with no windows.
3 - let scientists and engineers do all the planning based on real data and real designs.
Sadly most people are dumb as a box of rocks and believe they cant be happy without a 5500 sq foot mc mansion and at least 2 acres of Kentucky Bluegrass that requires 10 gallons per square yard a day in water. So eliminate the people as well, at least the dumb ones.
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Odd that you pick exactly the wrong thing about land use for Florida. Florida certainly has no shortage of water; what it has a problem with is drainage. Keeping a high ratio of unpaved land to paved land (as 2-acre lots would do) is precisely what's needed. Planting anything thirsty is even better.
A self-sustaining city is a bit of a joke anyhow, unless the "city" includes farms (both food and tree), steel mills, mines, the whole toolchain.
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No, Florida does have water shortages. You're right that drainage into the aquifer is a problem, but droughts do happen, and wasting water on lawns, golf courses, and sugarcane doesn't help. There have been major wildfires caused by drought in Flordia -- remember those?
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Bah, what drought: some days it rains water, and some days it rains fire! No problem!
But you can irrigate with non-potable water (and that's not uncommon in Florida) which really helps except in raining fire season.
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Florida does have a drainage problem but that doesn't mean there is not also a water shortage. Saltwater intrusion is a major problem because of the amount of water being sucked out of the ground by all the people living in the coastal areas.
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Sure, but Florida also has the infrastructure to irrigate with non-potable water. You don't need to water your lawn with water pumped from the aquifer, and while it's the default to do so there are real financial incentives not to.
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Yes, that exactly why large yards are good, and heavily paved areas with little green require retention ponds. You were agreeing with me, right?
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Re: I know why it failed....or is failing... (Score:2)
How do you fit a family of four into 850sq feet?
Most new construction in Colorado that I have seen is 3000 sq feet. Separate rooms for the kids, shared bath and separate closets
I have seen old 1920's era homes in NYC and they suck. One bathroom for the entire house. Vey little closets. No family room.
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70% of the population on this planet fit's a family of four in 400-600sq feet.
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None of the homes need to be larger than 850 sq foot.
So, when the population of earth doubles again, are we then to redefine personal living space at say 400 sq foot? Maybe we should all just accept our 1 sq meter per person now. Then what?
At some point we are going to have to reduce the population of the planet. Either we do it, or mother nature will do it for us. Until then, I plan to live comfortably in a much larger house than what scientists think I should live in.
Humanity will never accept an egalitarian life style. There will always be have and ha
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Interesting calculations:
Approximate population of the earth: 7 billion
Average number of Americans per household: 2.58
Total households per American norm: 2.7 billion
Land area of Texas: 268,000 square miles
If you divided the land area of Texas among those 2.7 billion households, each one gets approximately 3,000 square feet.
In other words, if you factor out the land area required for things like roads, stores, offices, and farms, the entire population of the earth could be spread around an area roughly the s
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My apartment is 640 square feet, and around here that's pretty spacious for one person. 850 square feet would be quite big. Why do you need so much space? Do you have a multi-person family, lots of pets, or is it just that you've become accustomed to spreading everything out?
I'm not the only one who feels this way, either -- there wouldn't be such high demand for apartments in places like Manhattan (where many apartments are much smaller) if people weren't happy living in such spaces. There are a lot
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850 sq. ft? That's okay for one person, or a young couple that doesn't own anything yet, but it's cramped for anyone else. Oh, it might be okay for small people. But not the average 'merican.
Speaking for myself, I'm not living in a city again until they abolish cars. Cars are what make cities suck.
Intentional communities usually fail (Score:2, Interesting)
This is utterly unsurprising. Intentional communities with "vision" almost always fail. Most 60s communes failed. Many colonies failed, and not just because they were attacked by natives. Modern planned communities do a bit better, mostly because they stick to patterns learned the hard way. They don't have the staying power that "organically grown" cities do. To grow a city you need water, transportation, and people that think it's a good place for a city. Sometimes you can take a marginal place and
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Manhattan's street grid [wikipedia.org] helped NYC grow in a much more orderly fashion than would otherwise have occurred...
That already did that elsewhere (Score:2)
Dome Alaska has been around for a couple of centuries.
2nd failed Eco City in Florida (Score:4, Interesting)
Full disclosure: I work for Nextera Energy. Parent Company of Florida Power & Light which this story references.
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ie get the land away from all and any State/county oversight via some federal 'protect nature' buffer zone?
What a pointless waste of capital... (Score:4, Interesting)
It looks like the primary problem was they had all kinds of big ideas, and utterly failed to hire anybody with any land-use planning or large-scale development experience to put them on paper in a language likely to be approved.
Just like computer people have their own language and lingo when dealing with technology, so do government land-use officials when reviewing development plans. If your plans don't cover what they expect them to cover, fail to counter objections the planner is likely to have, etc., your proposed development is probably not going to be approved, no matter how meritorious.
Florida land development (Score:3)
What did you expect? It's a land development project in South Florida. There's a long, long history of scams in that industry.
Also, the location sucks. From the rather vague map on their web site, it's south of Kissamee and due east of Brandon. There's about here. [goo.gl] That's Indian Lake Estates, which, as you can see from the aerials, was supposed to be a large development with 300 city blocks. About 5% of the lots have houses. There's one area where houses were built along small canals, but the canals all dead-end, so there's no flow and they'll stagnate. Here's a street view. [goo.gl] Nearby are remnants of other failed developments, a defunct Air Force base, and a a few modest farms.
It doesn't look like "regulation" was the problem. More like "reality".
Re:In otherwords (Score:5, Informative)
The batshit insane goverment there killed it because it involved environmentalism.
Magical libertarian thinking knows no bounds.
Based on TFA, it sounds like there were some valid concerns about the project:
Although the data and analysis state that the New City will support multi-modal transportation alternatives, and the scenario analysis assumes the New City will have transit, the policies do not actually require it. Urban sprawl may not be discouraged without clearer and more specific standards.
As written, this policy is vague regarding the actual size of the New City... the policy fails to provide adequate guidelines and standards for the location, suitability, contiguity, and compactness of the developable area, which could result in a scattered, energy inefficient, and sprawling pattern of development in areas which are environmentally unsuitable.
These sound like valid concerns, If it's not in writing, it's not going to happen - any city that's worked with a developer knows that the developer will promise the world "Oh yes, we'll build a park on every street corner and a paved jogging/biking trail around the perimeter of the development, trust us", but when funds run short, the development ends up with a patch of dirt called a "park", and fifty feet of paved trail that goes nowhere.
Plus there was the little financial sideshow:
While Destiny's Pugliese could have gone elsewhere with his plans, it seems a legal plot twist was the final nail in Destiny's coffin: A series of finger-pointing lawsuits between Pugliese and investor Fred DeLuca concluded last October when Pugliese and his business manager Joseph Reamer were charged with money laundering and fraud for using a portion of DeLuca's investment to pay for personal and business projects unrelated to Destiny.
Re:In otherwords (Score:4, Informative)
It's like walking by a post and observing a turtle on top of it.
Re:In otherwords (Score:5, Informative)
In this case boy would they have been right. When I first saw the website I just shook my head. What a freaking boondoggle. It would have been in the middle of nowhere Florida. And yes I grew up in Vero Beach, Florida. The current town at that location is called Yeehaw Junction and no I am not kidding. It is the Turnpike exit that you use to get to Vero. No jobs, no infrastructure, no people. A community there would be a classic Florida land scheme. AKA it is "swampland", not really it is central florida grassland. Good for raising cattle but not much else.
Anybody from the area that heard about it would say, wow that is crazy.
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Worse than that was to be right next to Yeehaw Junction. Ever got off on that Turnpike exit? The site was just a bit north on 441 I think.
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I've actually gotten ON the Turnpike there. Yeehaw is there for (ISTM) two reasons: to serve FL-60, which is the cross-state road running east from Tampa (and which extends to Vero Beach as GP mentioned), and to break up what would otherwise be a 90-mile stretch with no exits between Fort Pierce and Kissimmee. Other than that, there's one store there that looks like something the Clampetts grew up with.
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But at least it has a college there. That is at least some reason to go there and an "industry". I thought Ava Maria was interesting and I am kind of sad to see that they couldn't pass those laws. I find the idea of a Catholic town interesting. Being just a town and not a state you could easily go to and by condoms and porn if you wanted. In a way I see those laws not being allowed as being anti diversity. Why not have a town that wants to ban condoms ban them? Why not have a town that wants to ban private
Re:In otherwords (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know the details on this Catholic town trying to ban porn and condoms but honestly I can see arguments either way for whether or not that sort of law/ordinance should be legal to make. On the one hand, this is a planned community with a specific purpose so it only makes sense that that should (within reason) be able to set up any sort of laws they want. If you don't like it, don't move there. On the other hand, letting towns make these sorts of rules could set a bad precedent. What happens if that sort of law gets passed in a much larger town that grew up organically (and thus is full of people who are already established there and didn't sign up to live according to the rules of some group they have no affiliation with?).
Honestly, I don't much care for these sorts of special interest communities anyway. Isolating yourself from society so you can live in your own little echo chamber and never have to hear someone who disagrees with you rarely ends well.
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You are using the slippery slope argument. There are already communities like this for native Hawaiians on other groups in the US. Most people don't understand that the separation of church and state in the constitution only applied to the congress and not the states. The original idea is that the states could be vastly different communities. For instance Maryland was Mary's Land! It was a roman catholic colony. Pennsylvania was the Quaker colony and so on. With the populations of states that would be a bad
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This is what a free nation is supposed to be about -- people can go do their own thing, and if they screw up, then they screw up, no skin off your ass.
It's a nice idea, but it doesn't work that way for several reasons. One of them is that when someone walks away and leaves a housing development it doesn't just vanish. Another is that there's always impact from the construction that you can't simply wish away.
Also, if the right used the left's environmental laws to get in the way, fit punishment for building it in the first place.
What kind of torture did you use on this sentence? Waterboarding? Thumbscrews?
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They just need to do what Disney did. Make yourself a city and get jurisdiction over all improvements.
Disney has done a good job at managing growth on their property. Their roads are better than most in Central Fl.
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True but Disney also has a high "tax" rate it collects from it's citizens ... err customers.
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More likely though, these kinds of concerns get fast tracked if you smooze the right people and grease the right palms. Horrible projects with poor planning and shaky finances get approved all the time.
Re:In otherwords (Score:5, Interesting)
Okay Destiny Florida was to be built not too far from where I live and pretty close to where I grew up. The nearest town is Yeehaw Junction, Florida. It has two gas stations/convenience stores and an old brothel that is now a bar/restaurant. It is in the middle of nowhere. You have route 60 which, 441, and the Turnpike their but no rail, no commercial airport and no real jobs. It is hot and humid in the summer and is nothing but cattle ranches and citrus groves. It is not a good location at all to build a community except that the land is cheap. It is a at least an hours drive to Kissimmee and people shop for groceries in Okeechobee, FL.
It was a boondoggle from the start. Honestly the ideal way to build something like that would be to get some companies form a team with companies like Google, Apple, Intel, Bank of America, Publix "in florida", and so on to build facilities their for jobs as well as things like banks and grocery stores.
Might I suggest here https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=St+Marie%2C+Mt&data=!1m4!1m3!1d35531!2d-106.5221343!3d48.4125271!4m11!1m10!4m8!1m3!1d56752!2d-80.3896905!3d27.250567!3m2!1i1024!2i768!4f13.1!17b1 [google.com]
It is an old USAF base that has been shutdown. Most of the buildings are empty so you could start with a lot of existing infrastructure and build from there. You already have an airport that could handle jets and lots of potential for wind power and about average for solar. It is the great plains so it is not the ecologically sensitive as the central florida wetlands and has already been developed as a community than left.
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Might I suggest here https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=St+Marie%2C+Mt&data=!1m4!1m3!1d35531!2d-106.5221343!3d48.4125271!4m11!1m10!4m8!1m3!1d56752!2d-80.3896905!3d27.250567!3m2!1i1024!2i768!4f13.1!17b1 [google.com]
It is an old USAF base that has been shutdown.
I suppose you've been out to the site and taken a nice broad range of soil samples, then brought them home and analyzed them? Because military bases of all kinds have a tendency to become superfund sites because of decades of disposal of hazardous chemicals involving burying barrels or simply dumping things out in back of the shop.
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While Destiny's Pugliese could have gone elsewhere with his plans, it seems a legal plot twist was the final nail in Destiny's coffin: A series of finger-pointing lawsuits between Pugliese and investor Fred DeLuca concluded last October when Pugliese and his business manager Joseph Reamer were charged with money laundering and fraud for using a portion of DeLuca's investment to pay for personal and business projects unrelated to Destiny.
Reamer. Who would have thought?
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While true, take a look at the rest of Florida - You want suburba
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Magical libertarian thinking knows no bounds.
That's rather ironic given the libertarianism is entirely about rationalism, and environmentalism often seems to be about solar panels in perpetual daylight and wind farms in a never-ending breeze. Oh wait, big oil re-wrote the laws of physics just to increase their profits, I forgot.
Re:In otherwords (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, wait, you're serious.
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Now I want to to be a magical libertarian. Damn government always taking my robe and wizard hat.
Re:In otherwords (Score:4, Interesting)
http://libertarianlonghorns.com/2010/12/17/my-little-pony-and-the-perspective-of-the-upper-class/
Although it's a serious libertarian of some type looking at plot flaws in a magical pony show. Meanwhile I'm sure other types quite like the idea of Royalty so long as they get their money from their own serfs and not the libertarian or the libertarian's serfs.
let me help you there (Score:2)
Batshit insane federal environmental program (read: crony capitalism) killed by slightly less insane local regulators.
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A liberal experiment in central planning failed. I'm shocked.
Had that been the case, they'd be no news story. Where's the "man bites dog" in that? This was a story about "a liberal experiment in environmentalist central planning fails the state's rules because of concerns over its effects on the environment and lack of central planning", which is a pretty good story!
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You do realize that there have been many successful planned cities, including the capital of Brazil.
And do you have any examples of these? The main problem with centrally planned capitols is that they tend to have very poor containment. You don't want that crap on you.
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It's a set of concentric circles that can be seen easily from a distance with all the politicians right in the bullseye.
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Australia's capital, Canberra is very effective.
It's a set of concentric circles that can be seen easily from a distance with all the politicians right in the bullseye.
The problem is there are a set of bunkers underneath Canberra.
Who would have thought that underneath Canberra was a place more boring than Canberra.
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Now here's the clever thing - the city designer thought of that and built an artificial lake right near the middle of the place so that the bunkers couldn't be dug down deep enough without getting flooded.
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The UK has lots of planned towns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom [wikipedia.org] (definitions of cities differ, some of them might count).
A couple of them are accused of being boring, dull, or American-style (i.e. grid system roads), but they still work as towns. All of them have a purpose though.
One 'Eco Town' is being built, North West Bicester ("bis-ter"). The map I see still have long, straight roads. Putting cycle paths alone doesn't encourage people out of their cars*, you have to mak
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Putting cycle paths alone doesn't encourage people out of their cars*, you have to make the car journey less convenient
Another problem with planned cities is forcing people to adapt to the city rather than the other way around. I see it a bit like software, if you have to break the functionality of the thing in order for it to be used as intended, then maybe you should change your intent instead.
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Putting cycle paths alone doesn't encourage people out of their cars*, you have to make the car journey less convenient
Another problem with planned cities is forcing people to adapt to the city rather than the other way around. I see it a bit like software, if you have to break the functionality of the thing in order for it to be used as intended, then maybe you should change your intent instead.
The intention is that bicycles are used for shorter journeys (to work, shops, school etc), for health, environment and economic reasons.
Wide, high-speed roads didn't build themselves, and people adapted to them (with problems -- death and injury from accidents, earlier death from pollution, environmental damage, dividing communities, etc.)
Many British cities seem to be based on the use case "User can drive to work", rather than "User can travel to work".
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The intention is that bicycles are used for shorter journeys (to work, shops, school etc), for health, environment and economic reasons.
And the practice is that bicycles just aren't that useful to people.
Wide, high-speed roads
You mention one adaptation to humans right there. "Wide". And choosing high-speed roads instead of say, high speed bicycle lanes or rail lines, is another adaptation.
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And the practice is that bicycles just aren't that useful to people.
Maybe not everywhere, but the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, etc would disagree, as well as plenty of towns elsewhere. (Also many poor countries.)
Wide, high-speed roads
You mention one adaptation to humans right there. "Wide". And choosing high-speed roads instead of say, high speed bicycle lanes or rail lines, is another adaptation.
So...? I don't see how this means it's a desirable adaptation, or better than the alternatives.
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Maybe not everywhere, but the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, etc would disagree, as well as plenty of towns elsewhere. (Also many poor countries.)
They'd also agree too. The population isn't some monolithic ideological bloc.
So...? I don't see how this means it's a desirable adaptation, or better than the alternatives.
You wrote:
Putting cycle paths alone doesn't encourage people out of their cars*, you have to make the car journey less convenient, as is done in the Netherlands, Denmark, etc.
In other words, when people had a choice, they chose cars. That indicates cars are a desirable adaptation in the absence of meddling to the people who actually make the choices.
I see a fundamental inability to grasp the concept of "desirable". Sure, I can meddle in the costs and benefits of choices, to make other choices more desirable. But what is the point of doing so? As far as I can tell, the sole purpose of warpin
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Re:Planning experiment (Score:4, Insightful)
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Every single thing has an effect on the environment. Should we rip out our volcanoes for their carbon emissions? And kill every fish that shits in the ocean? And what about that whole earth rotation thingy, you know, the one that made the temperature go from 80 degrees every day to 20. We should stop that, because it changes the environment. Oh, and if you killed yourself, you'd decay and change the environment. You'd breed deadly bacteria that could hurt an innocent wolf that tried to eat your corpse.
The g
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With such a non-definition, OF COURSE we (and every living organism and many non-animate processes) have a negative impact.
The only appropriate answer to that is - so?
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Each and everyday I become more convinced of this argument.
Well, if you're convinced, then I'm convinced. baa! baa!
The fact is that the natives who lived in the pacific northwest had successful land management practices. They had rules for who could fish where and how much, they set fires yearly when moving between their summer and winter grounds which kept down the brush including poison oak, and they were able to subsist primarily on hunting and gathering because their land management was so very successful and the land so rich. Predictably, ol' whitey fucked it
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well, those are possible problems everytime a city is built. or anything that people would work at.
you could have used those same reasons to reject plans for disneyland.