Russia Backs Sending Top Students Abroad With a Catch 167
First time accepted submitter Clark Schultz writes "Vladimir Putin plans to send the country's top domestic students abroad in an effort to prepare engineers, doctors, and scientists with the most modern education. The initiative comes with a catch: Students must return to Mother Russia to work. Though critics say that the students may be tempted to stay abroad after receiving their advanced degrees, Putin is confident they will be properly motivated to keep up their end of the bargain. As one advocate notes, the 'brilliant' practice of educating Russians at top global universities dates back to the times of Peter the Great."
The actual catch... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just don't come back gay.
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Just don't come back gay.
Or they can go to the Russian embassy, tell them that they're now gay, and ask if Mother Russia still wants them
Re:The actual catch is ... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Putin probably does not care that much about actual kids who would go abroad. However, the chance to do it for free would greatly stimulate the rest of the population (abroad is still a candy for many Russians). That's the goal - make education cool again.
As per your original point, yes Russian universities are good (and some - usually the best - still provide free education for most of former republics).
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also at a lower cost then US University (Score:2)
also at a lower cost then US University with out the big loans.
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I don't think we are talking about Computer Science. There are three universities in Russia (1 in Moscow and 2 in St. Petersburg) that are all better in Computer Science than any university in US.
Hmmmm. [huffingtonpost.com]
And carrying it further. [shanghairanking.com]
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Any idea what the names of those are? Maybe you have a better source, but I don't see any listed here:
http://www.shanghairanking.com/SubjectCS2013.html [shanghairanking.com]
or here:
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2013/computer-science-and-information-systems [topuniversities.com]
or here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/best-university-computer-science_n_2439697.html [huffingtonpost.com]
or here:
http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2011/sep/05/top-100-universities-world-computer-science-and-information- [theguardian.com]
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All of those rankings have one fatal flaw, they put more than 50% weight on citations of articles or books by the staff of those universities published in English Language (No Russian, No Mandarin). If instead of focusing on the teachers, they focus on the students, the picture would be quite different.
I'd hire a student from those three schools over anybody who studied in any university in US, no questions asked. Especially over anyone who went to High School in US.
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Okay, so I still don't know which schools you're talking about. And, can you point to any kind of metric that backs up your claim?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACM_International_Collegiate_Programming_Contest [wikipedia.org]
Until the world opened up in 1991, it was USA only. Once that happened, you have a healthy mix for couple years and since 2000, it is Russia, China and Poland only at the top spot. But check the top 10 and you will see which universities are the best.
But just try to hire people even around Sillicon Valley, in my entire professional life I met only one Russian programmer that was not excelent and he was educated in US since 5th grad
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Dmitri: [Dmitri rings in on the final question in the physics bowl] The answer is minus eight pi alpha.
Sheldon: Hang on, hang on a second, that is not our answer! What are you doing?
Dmitri: [wearily] Answering question; winning physics bowl.
Sheldon: How do *you* know anything about physics?
Dmitri: Here I am janitor. In former Soviet Union, I am physicist; Leningrad Polytechnica - Go Polar Bears.
Re:The actual catch is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
... the world out there will NOT believe in you when they know you are from Russia
Really? All of my Russian colleagues in physics are incredibly talented and well trained and have great senses of humor too! Based on this experience I'd have zero hesitation in accepting a suitably skilled Russian grad student and I hope this programme causes more of them to apply to my institute. If they have to go back to work in Russia afterwards then that's not a bad thing - science it a global enterprise and it will undoubtedly help Russia build ties with the global community is is good for everyone.
Re:The actual catch is ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm Russian in "the world out there", and I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. No-one had ever looked down on me because of my national origin.
Have you considered that the problem might actually be with yourself?
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"Have you considered that the problem might actually be with yourself?"
No, this is Slashdot, that never happens here, everyone's flawless. Especially me.
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I suppose that depends on where you go, but I haven't seen much snubbing of Chinese hereabouts - US West Coast, Seattle and around. On the contrary, if anything, they seem to be lumped together under the common "smart overeducated Asian" stereotype along with Japanese and Koreans.
Indians, now, I'll give you that.
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I think generation matters too, I find the Chinese students around here an absolute dream, they're smart, pleasant, polite, and put my native British brethren to shame but in some tourist cities like York you get a lot of older Chinese visitors that bring their habits with them, which are a bit of a culture shock for us Brits - spitting into tissues/cups all the time, refusing to queue and pushing past everyone waiting to be served and so forth.
The younger Chinese in University towns seem far more aware of
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I think generation matters too, I find the Chinese students around here an absolute dream, they're smart, pleasant, polite, and put my native British brethren to shame but in some tourist cities like York you get a lot of older Chinese visitors that bring their habits with them, which are a bit of a culture shock for us Brits - spitting into tissues/cups all the time, refusing to queue and pushing past everyone waiting to be served and so forth.
there are rude, simple minded, and insensitive people from all cultures. do you know some people that are rude and pushy, and some people that are open minded and polite? well, same with other cultures.
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It's not about rudeness it's just that that demographic of the Chinese population That is older and travels to UK tourist hotspots almost in its entirety outright lack the concept of cultural sensitivity when traveling compared to the younger generations. It does in itself seen to be a clash of cultures rather than an issue of inherent respect. The younger generations are much more westernised so cope with the transition better.
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Forgot to say, as an aside it's worth noting that even the people of Hong Kong that was British administered for 100 years have been outright protesting at the same cultural clash, so even the most westernised Chinese recognise the issue.
Seems reasonable (Score:5, Insightful)
If they don't want to go back to Russia, they don't have to accept the grants.
I'm not really seeing a problem here?
Re:Seems reasonable (Score:4, Funny)
Surely since it is Putin: if they don't want to come back it is fine as long as they don't mind their tea tasting of Polonium.
Re:Seems reasonable (Score:4, Insightful)
Or if they want their families let go upon their return...
"confident they will be properly motivated" (Score:2, Interesting)
Perhaps Putin will find new ways to motivate them.
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Well, he already has the crown [theguardian.com].
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Or Darth Vladimir...
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Darth Invladimir? Darth Invalid?
Re:Seems reasonable (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, they have apparently been accepting grants all along, for many years, but never coming back.
The new decree (Do they not pass laws over there?) simply says:
Students who earned bachelor's degrees in Russian universities may enter leading [foreign] universities... and be eligible for financial support from the government.
If these students would like to stay overseas after graduation, they would have to pay a hefty amount to Russia that would include all the money spent on the education plus a fine twice as large as this amount.
Good luck collecting, unless they want to hire a boat load of lawyers in each country students go to. (If they thought US tuition was high, wait till they see US lawyer bills). Maybe they will get the parents to co-sign these grants so they can at least threaten to put the parents in the hot seat if young Doctor Ivan doesn't come back.
With US student loans defaulting at a rate of 10% [ed.gov] they are just as likely to learn bad habits here.
On the other hand if you can legally wipe out all or most of your student loans by getting a good paying job in Russia (by virtue of your prestigious foreign doctorate), it just might work.
It all depends on the job and pay opportunities at home, and how much of the government loans will be forgiven. It might be pretty hard to pay back a western sized debt on a Russian sized salary unless most or all of it were forgiven by the Russian Government.
Re:Seems reasonable (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, they have apparently been accepting grants all along, for many years, but never coming back.
The new decree (Do they not pass laws over there?) simply says:
Students who earned bachelor's degrees in Russian universities may enter leading [foreign] universities... and be eligible for financial support from the government.
If these students would like to stay overseas after graduation, they would have to pay a hefty amount to Russia that would include all the money spent on the education plus a fine twice as large as this amount.
Good luck collecting, unless they want to hire a boat load of lawyers in each country students go to. (If they thought US tuition was high, wait till they see US lawyer bills). Maybe they will get the parents to co-sign these grants so they can at least threaten to put the parents in the hot seat if young Doctor Ivan doesn't come back.
With US student loans defaulting at a rate of 10% [ed.gov] they are just as likely to learn bad habits here.
On the other hand if you can legally wipe out all or most of your student loans by getting a good paying job in Russia (by virtue of your prestigious foreign doctorate), it just might work.
It all depends on the job and pay opportunities at home, and how much of the government loans will be forgiven. It might be pretty hard to pay back a western sized debt on a Russian sized salary unless most or all of it were forgiven by the Russian Government.
France for instance not only subsidizes students that enter the top univerisities (ecole polytechnique and ecole normale superieur among others) but it also pays the students a stipend. The catch is that once you graduate you owe the French state 10 years of your life. After that you can enter if you want the private sector, but the first ten years must be given back to the public sector. Else you must reimburse the money the French state invested in your education. And you can bet your ass they do come after you if you don't uphold your end of the bargain.
Russia is doing nothing alien. They pay for their student's education, even paying their stay abroad. It is only natural those students give back to the Russian state some years of their lives.
Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country.
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Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country.
The US actually has several such programs, like the ROTC, GI Bill, or the various doctors and nurses programs for Western states.
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Sweden doesn't require it either. University is effectively free, and you get a part-stipend, part-loan for your living expenses. If you go abroad to study the stipend and loan will follow. You do need to pay back the loan (in proportion to y
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Which is why I did not say "it is free". It is "free" as in "we pay nothing extra for attending, and get no tax money back if we do not". Which is "effectively free" from the point of view of the people attending university.
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"Only in the US (temple of individuality) does the state subsidize your studies (if you're fortunate enough) but then you are not compelled to give back. Individuality taken to the extreme, and then we ask ourselves why all the worlds big problems stem from that country."
We certainly do give back via taxation. There's a saying in this country "The only thing you can count on is death and taxes."
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Re:Seems reasonable (Score:5, Interesting)
They could probably just levy the fines as a tax, and have them extradited for tax evasion through existing tax treaties.
The US already does something similar, and there is a large body of signing countries to this convention. If you live abroad you still have to pay US taxes even if you never make use of any US services. If you renounce your citizenship, you have to pay the US government a large tax as if you have sold every single asset that you presently own (so basically 30% of everything you have) plus some other fees and levies - if you don't do this, then the US will have you extradited and jailed. (This is why those complaining about those ex-patriots who renounced their citizenship to avoid future taxation have unfounded complaints - they already had to pay more than their pre-existing dues just to renounce their citizenship; they just want to avoid paying future taxes to a government that doesn't provide any services to them whatsoever.)
Re:Seems reasonable (Score:5, Informative)
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Taxation without representation.
Just like resident aliens [wikipedia.org] then.
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Actually I'd like you to cite please; in fact I'm going to pull the "I call BS" card as well. There's actually an official list of people who have renounced their citizenship each quarter for tax purposes, published by the IRS, and it isn't all that large (2,963 in 2013 to be precise, and 2013 was a big year for this.) Just how many people on that list do you actually know? Almost all of them are filthy rich. What, are you the captain of their yacht club or something?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ke... [forbes.com]
Some go so far as to say that the U.S. tax and disclosure laws are downright oppressive.
No group is more severely impacted than U.S. persons living abroad. For those living and working in foreign countries, it is almost a given that they must report and pay tax where they live. But they must also continue to file taxes in the U.S. What’s more, U.S. reporting is based on their worldwide income, even though they are paying taxes in the country where they live.
Many can claim a foreign tax credit on their U.S. returns, but it generally does not eliminate all double taxes.
The la
Never challenge lawyers to a battle of lawsuits (Score:1)
You didn't just tell Russia that it can't use international law, did you. Are you really daring Lawyers to not be able to do something using the law??
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Look, cops aren't going to chase all over hell rounding up people for skipping out on a student loan.
Its a civil matter, and we have enough of our own criminals to catch, let alone Russian absconders.
Hell, our cops won't even round up terrorists when Russian security tells us they are dangerous, instead we let them bomb marathons.
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Well, you do realize that you have family still in Russia who may be subject to pay your fines in lieu of you paying the fines.
That said, I think Russia has been in a different direction since the USSR broke apart. Still corrupt, still messed up, but the have been slowly moving in the right direction.
Meanwhile, we have the US and Europe which has been steadily moving in the wrong direction. Freedom has been diminishing and continues to be eroded. The US is very much hit or miss on liberty today and getti
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If it were that easy, why would Russia be passing this new law financing, and then (apparently) forgiving the tuition?
If you are one of the highly sought after career category, you would be surprised how many impediments are removed from your path. Besides, you only address one country. Canada will take anything that breathes and walks. Some countries couldn't care less. And Snowden will probably end up in Brazil.
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There are over 11 million reasons that say you're wrong:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/us/immigrant-population-shows-signs-of-growth-estimates-show.html?_r=0 [nytimes.com]
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They could have an exchange program - send Russians over to US to study there on J1 visas, and bring in Americans to study in Russian universities. Given the population depression in Russia, have American students come to Russia on the condition that they'll settle down there. Since there are probably a lot more jobs there, particularly in Siberia, the Americans could be allowed in on condition that they won't leave, while the Russians are free to go.
In a few decades, Russia would be an English speaki
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Tough sell.
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If they don't go back to Russia, what penalty can they suffer? Emigration is not a crime, so they would not be extradited. Considering the joblessness, poverty, and employer dishonesty throughout Russia who would go back if they don't have to? However, these problems are gradually spreading over the rest of the world as well, so at some point in the near future Russia will look no worse than any other country.
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In the U.S. there are some grants for med school that stipulate practicing in under served rural areas for a time after becoming a doctor. If you don't put in the time you have to pay back the grant.
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If they don't go back to Russia, what penalty can they suffer?
Polonium. Straight up, or on the rocks.
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No, but tax evasion is, if they do what I described in a previous post.
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This type of catch in itself is not that uncommon or interesting.
The interesting questions are "why so harsh" and mor importantly:
"why now?" and?
The answer is that educated russians with marketable degrees are fleeing the country by the boatload to escape what Putin is doing to Russia.
Eroding freedoms, isolationalist policies, state-sponsored nationalism, rampant corruption, tolerance of violent crime, and these things in turn scaring away foreign investors - to an intelligent, educated young adult this ea
Once they come back (Score:2, Interesting)
This is how it *should* work. (Score:1)
Re:This is how it *should* work. (Score:5, Interesting)
It worked for Meiji Japan. They sent off boatloads of students to foreign universities, brought in foreign experts and jumpstarted Japan's industrialization (which was probably the most rapid industrialization in history). In the mid-19th century, Japan was still to a large extent a late Feudal state. By the beginning of the 20th century, it kicked the crap out of the Russians and by WWI was considered a Great Power.
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And now I hear that ordinary Japanese have turned insular again, English knowledge is low, and studying abroad doesn't help your prospects, it harms them.
Re:This is how it *should* work. (Score:4, Insightful)
They where to return home with expert skills (linked to the host nations brands), a glowing personal account of their academic and new lifelong friendships.
Over time it was hoped the once young students would move up in their nations public or private power structures reflecting fondly recalling their education and years abroad.
This would give exports from US, Soviet Union, France, UK an edge or direct contact via friends, academics during trade negations, loans, weapons sales, imports, shaping the left or right wing of an emerging country.
The real issue is the total leaking of expensive emerging science and engineering technology over time for 'free' to emerging countries.
"Bob" or "Sally" return home with much more than a degree - long term contacts and sensitive technology finds its way out of top US, Soviet Union/Russia, France, UK institutions over time due to 'funding' pressure.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-08/american-universities-infected-by-foreign-spies-detected-by-fbi.html [bloomberg.com]
Peter the Great is the warning from history - don't let your trade become a flood of raw materials out and have overpriced fashionable trinkets as imports. http://russiapedia.rt.com/prominent-russians/the-romanov-dynasty/peter-i/ [rt.com]
The Cold War was is littered with efforts like/under, funding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Committee_on_United_Europe [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Policy_Coordination [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Student_Association [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples'_Friendship_University_of_Russia [wikipedia.org]
Modern art was CIA 'weapon'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html [independent.co.uk] via International Organisations Division (IOD)
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I have an interest in history, and I've read that the Hittites, who had discovered iron, initially tried to keep it secret from the rest of the world, as an advantage.
I don't know if it's true, never fact-checked it, but nowadays when I see someone worrying about technology transfers, I always remember how the Hittites wanted to keep iron secret, and it's somehow very funny.
Nothing new. (Score:2)
"educating Russians at top global universities dates back to the times of Peter the Great"
So... what's the point of this story?
.
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To let the "nerds" graduating highschool in the next couple of years that they are gonna have some more competition at the good schools
Re:Nothing new. (Score:4, Insightful)
So... what's the point of this story?
Well, turn it around.
If the US government paid for your education in prestigious foreign universities, and you could have all that debt forgiven by coming home to work, wouldn't you find that attractive?
Re:Nothing new. (Score:4, Insightful)
But to complete your comparison, you'd also be able to make 4 or 5 times as much money overseas because wages in the US were considerably lower. In the short term, debt forgiveness is appealing--but in the long term it's a bad deal compared to the extra earnings/savings you could accrue.
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You might want to Rethink that [wikipedia.org]
Come home to a high paying US wage, with a pretty low tax rate, AND have your College debt forgiven? Why not. If you insist the grass is greener, you can always work a few years, get the debt forgiven, then move back for the lower paying foreign job and higher tax rates.
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The point? That Putin is the new Czar. All bow down to his intellect and despair.
Assuming that there will be jobs for them ... (Score:3)
The crying shame in the UK is that many graduates cannot find real jobs and end up flipping burgers. If Putin ensures that they have a good chance of getting a job upon return to Russia - many will find that an attractive proposition and be more than willing to return.
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Russia's economy has been booming for years. There is massive foreign investment in Russian industry. Their energy sector is straight up roaring. Russia had fully recovered from the 2008 'crisis' by mid-2010 and kept growing from there. Russia is a creditor nation now, buying the public debt of declining nations, such as the US.
Russian unemployment is about 6%. And that's a legitimate number as well; not like US unemployment figures that are mostly the result of shrinking the size of the workforce to p
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good chance of getting a job upon return to Russia
Flipping pirozhki?
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All your wizard friends--shot, everyone who ever sold you perogi--shot.
Hmm. Well, this *is* Putin we're talking about here.
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There is no shortage of jobs in Russia, at least in IT.
Old (Score:2)
This is common practice on lots of countries. In Venezuela this has been going for almost a century (though i don't know the current status since our problem with $$$), they give you a scholarship to study abroad with the condition to come back, otherwise they give you (or your relatives) the bill.
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WWITTD? (Score:2)
Is education really the problem in Russia? (Score:1)
Why would they want to do that? Russian science and engineering education (especially undergraduate) is top-notch. I would NOT want to have been educated in the States, including the overhyped Harvard or MIT although I do like working and living here. Graduate school is a different matter but it is hard to beleive that the problems with Russian science are education related. Money (or lack thereof) and lack of respect is a more likely cause.
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Where would you prefer to have been educated (assuming you would prefer education at all)? American universities are rather well regarded and university education is one of USAs major exports.
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I got my undergraduate education in Russia. No complaints. I teach at an ameican university, so I know what american undergraduate education looks like, on average. As far as exports go, this is not surprising: 1) it is easy to get into an american unirversity, as long as you have money, 2) a lot of other countries have even worse systems. We are talking about STEM (as it is fashionably called nowadays) education, so it very well may be that american univerisities provide excellent non-STEM education. As fa
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Gotta agree, to a large extent, with the AC above. US universities often seem to be a much more serious proposition at the grad level than at the undergrad level, although this can vary quite a bit from university to another, and from one concentration/major to another. US universities' reputations have more to do with their ability to provide a heavy duty grad (i.e. professionalizing) education and with their research output than they do with their undergrad offerings (which is often a hand-holding jog, bu
Student debt (Score:2)
Pay for the education through student loans.
Then Russia owns them forever, just like regular creditors.
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It is the standard contract (Score:4, Insightful)
[*] Gazetted officers are the civilian equivalent of the commissioned officers. Induction to the service by the President published in The Gazette of the Government of India. I had the right to sign government documents and files in green ink. My batch mates are under secretaries and joint secretaries of the government now. I am a lowly slashdotter with 31 achievements.
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In Brazil it's pretty much the same, except it's only valid if you travel abroad AFAIK. If the government pays you to study overseas you must come back and stay in the country for an equal period. If you breach the contract you must pay back the money you received until that point. If you refuse to pay the other person who signed the contract (e.g. a parent/brother/etc) will have to. If once again they refuse to pay and are abroad then I suppose the government is just glad to be rid of them.
I don't see the
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I think this also holds for medical students in India - students in government medical colleges have to work for a few years for the government.
Well it's not like they could get a visa to stay (Score:1)
In Soviet Russia ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Motivation is all you need (Score:1)
These days you can just buy textbooks, read them, watch youtube videos, go online to ask questions, and learn just about anything you want that you would learn from a university. OK, some exceptions maybe, for instance, labwork experience but you don't need an expensive fancy university for that, your local community college or university can do just fine. You can get just as good an education at your local university as you could at a prestigious foreign one but you need to have interest and ambition.
Yes I
In Soviet Russia, They test YOU! (Score:2)
Before Putin, the testing of school graduates had a form of individual exams and essays performed by teachers. Now, in attempts to exclude corruption, the automated formal tests (YEGE - Yedinyi Gosudarstvennyi Ekzamen - The Uniform State Exam) are performed. The graduates just mark the numbers of correct answers.
I am not going to discuss the destruction of rational thinking by training the children to choose the only correct answer, especially when there is a political course such as history. I just inform
Back to the old Soviet Russia days (Score:2)
Ah, Comrade Putin, he is bringing back another practice of the USSR: defection.
Scary (Score:2)
Putin is confident they will be "properly motivated"
No Family or Friends to threaten, then no go.... (Score:2)
No Family or Friends to threaten, then no go.... Is this what they mean by "properly motivated"?
Political Asylum, anyone? (Score:2)
Just say you're gay, and they know about it at home, and if you go back to Russia the government will do bad things to you.
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Why would it drive tuition down? Do you live in a fantasy world?
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Most Universities likely charge higher for international students, so it should actually drive tuition down.
The amount of brief cases expands to contain all of the available money.
If I can fill my university seats with high-paying foreigners, why would I not do that more often?
And why would I not jack up resident tuition so as to have more seats available for non-resident foreign students?
An admission is a limited resource. It will tend to get sold to the highest bidder.
This is already happening in some states [nytimes.com], even in State funded schools.
Of course independent universities, including many of the most prestigiou
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College tuition only goes up. And has gone up about 10% annually for the past 15 years. By 2020 top schools will likely be charging $100,000 per year, although nobody will actually pay full price.