US To Charge Chinese Military Employees With Hacking 225
jfruh (300774) writes "The U.S. federal government will announce today indictments of several employees of the Chinese military with hacking into computers to steal industrial secrets. The indictments will be the first of their kind against employees of a foreign government. Among the trade secrets allegedly stolen by the accused are information about a nuclear power plant design and a solar panel company's cost and pricing data."
Vs the NSA (Score:5, Informative)
Which just steals secrets from the states, vs corporate secrets and giving them to GM, Apple, General Electric, etc.
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:5, Insightful)
yeah it's weird in that regard that they went for opening that pandoras box... the chinese will just indict in response.
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:4, Interesting)
TFS and TFA are both ridiculously vague.
How exactly does this work, in terms of jurisdiction? Is this a case for the ICC? WTO?
Or is it now (officially) the position of USJ that its jurisdiction covers the whole planet?
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:5, Interesting)
A country can claim jurisdiction anywhere on the planet, but the trick is to be able to enforce that claim of jurisdiction...
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:4)
Also, is the U.S. going after the person who said, "ya, it's good idea; do it." or just the teams of rank and file only?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:4, Funny)
Likely it will just be "John/Jane Doe" indictments.
So we will be charging no suspect and prosecute them in absentia where they will have no defense, as such it is a forgone conclusion that they will be found guilty, so what is that plan have convictions made up with a "insert name here..." line? Yeah I feel safe living in country that thinks this is fine...
And beyond the obvious dubiousness of these proceedings isn't this a major pot calling the kettle black situation after everything Snowden has showed us in the past year of the NSA spying, hack/cracking, emplanting of back doors, stealing foreign secrets. We have no moral high ground to stand on in this fight.
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:4, Funny)
Someone sent the DOJ a copy of "team america" and they believe it is their new mission.
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:4, Interesting)
yeah it's weird in that regard that they went for opening that pandoras box... the chinese will just indict in response.
Weird enough that it has me trying to figure out why they would do it. The other thing that seems weird is that we're charging the guys who were just following orders. Why charge the foot soldiers instead of the generals who ordered the action? It's a pretty extreme tinfoil hat scenario, but could they be trying to establish a story frame of throwing the boots to the wolves, so Clapper and Alexander don't go down?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
I think at this point they have just decided to go with "hay, everyone else is just as bad!"
Re: (Score:2)
yeah it's weird in that regard that they went for opening that pandoras box..
They had to do something to distract people from the story [slashdot.org] that they're sabotaging Cisco routers coming out of the U.S.
Re: (Score:2)
yeah it's weird in that regard that they went for opening that pandoras box..
They had to do something to distract people from the story [slashdot.org] that they're sabotaging Cisco routers coming out of the U.S.
It's the South Park "Look! A wookie!!" defense.
Re: (Score:3)
Its probably worse that just the US.
Notice how the charge isn't just spying but spying on US companies for the benefit of chinese companies? That is because several multi-lateral trade agreements have provisions concerning state sponsored industrial espionage. If there is any creditable evidence to show, its possible most of Europe and a lot of other areas will have to sanction them too.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Yes, embargos and trade sanctions would hurt the US, but they would hurt China more. After all, the US is the consumer. It can turn to other vendors, even if they are pricier, and it can reduce consumption if absolutely necessary. China is the seller. It needs those dollars coming into its economy, and there is no other potential customer that has nearly as much money to spend as the US does.
What planet are you from? Is it nice there?
America has no leverage. They don't make anything anymore, so they can't trade anything anymore. Just their funny money, and China is in the middle of an effort, coordinated with Russia, to topple the US dollar. But it's not like Chinese people are going to be cold and starving if the US cuts off the supply. Chinese people could dump their manufactured goods in the ocean and it wouldn't really impact them that much as long as their population had somewhere to
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah. Lots of other countries build PCs and their components.
Re:Vs the NSA (Score:5, Funny)
At least that makes for a bulletproof court case: NSA files show that the data is now stored on a Chinese government computer... Oh, wait.
Re: (Score:2)
Really? Do you have any evidence this has actually occurred or is this just another one of those "There is nothing the NSA cannot do" stories?
Re: (Score:2)
Which just steals secrets from the states, vs corporate secrets and giving them to GM, Apple, General Electric, etc.
Actually, a couple of NSA's sub-programs relate specifically to industrial-espionage in the oil industry. So it is total hypocrisy.
It's all completely legal (Score:3)
President Obama is a constitutional scholar.
Jurisdiction (Score:5, Insightful)
The US govt doesn't know the meaning of the word. Sovereignty's another.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
These are political moves. Said actual people better not leave China or Chinese-friendly (extradition-wise) nations.
Yes it won't do much but it is a statement that your government ordered it is not gonna help you.
Re:Jurisdiction (Score:4, Informative)
The US govt doesn't know the meaning of the word. Sovereignty's another.
Neither does the EU or probably most if not all other countries in the world. Did you know that France makes Ebay restrict certain listings on every Ebay site in the world, not just the French Ebay site, so that French citizens are theoretically prevented (by IP address) from (gasp!) seeing them? Italy has also tried to enforce its law beyond its national borders. Spain went so far as to try people from crimes committed in Latin America that had nothing to do with Spanish citizens. Austria put a Holocaust denier in jail for a while for statements he made in the UK, not Austria. Once he came to Austria they simply nabbed him and charged them under their anti-Nazi laws for something that didn't even happen on Austrian soil. So spare me the usual US bashing.
Re: (Score:2)
Fair statement. Though I tend to run in the US stuff more often. It's despicable from all though.
Talk about (Score:5, Insightful)
the pot and the kettle.
Does that mean ... (Score:5, Insightful)
that I can sue the NSA for trying to crack my machines and that the USA will extradite the NSA employees to the UK so that they can be tried in our courts ? Do the people at the USA DOJ understand the meaning of the word ''irony'' ?
This is more outlandish than even something that most political satire writers would have dreamed up.
Do as I say, not... (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anyone else find this particularly ironic and posturing after the "Cisco Complains To Obama About NSA Adding Spyware To Routers" article earlier?
Good luck with that. (Score:5, Interesting)
Not an Obama hater, but seriously, Russia and now China? Trying to start WWIII on two fronts, in case one backs down? 2016 can't come fast enough.
Re:Good luck with that. (Score:5, Insightful)
"2016 can't come fast enough." You're an idiot if you think that changes ANYTHING AT ALL.
Re: (Score:3)
It could easily be for the worse, and most likely won't be any better, but it will change.
Re: (Score:2)
No, 2016 will change something.
It could easily be for the worse, and most likely won't be any better, but it will change.
Most likely, there will be no significant change to speak of. Maybe some cosmetic tweaks. Certainly new promises which will be broken on day one. Almost definitely a populace who will continue to fail to demand real change.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Re: (Score:2)
What are you going to do about that? Isn't there some clause in your country's constitution that mandates you to fix situations like this?
Re: (Score:2)
The only thing that will change in 2016 is which person has a bunch of rich hands up their asshole controlling what comes out of their mouth. Everything else will remain exactly the same.
Re:Good luck with that. (Score:5, Interesting)
If the democrats are the ones currently instigating WWIII than 2016 ain't going to help. If a Republican gets elected (unless it's Ron Paul, and I'm not holding my breath for that!) than their just going to look at the previous 8 years as laying the ground work. And any democrat that gets elected is going to assume that their election is voter approval of the current administration's policies, otherwise the voters would have ousted the Dems and brought in a Rep.
In other words, in a two party system, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't...
Re: (Score:2)
No doubt, China will cooperate fully in extraditing members of their active military so they can stand trial in the US for following their orders.
Not an Obama hater, but seriously, Russia and now China? Trying to start WWIII on two fronts, in case one backs down? 2016 can't come fast enough.
The response against Russia has been so weak that I am completely shocked that today Putin gave the order to pull back from the Ukrainian border. I am baffled about what this is supposed to accomplish in regards to China unless the real reason is to make the accused afraid to travel to the USA or possibly certain US friendly countries that might extradite them. Since the high ups in China love their foreign trips to "decadent" Western democracies, just stopping certain people from traveling and severely a
Re:Good luck with that. (Score:4, Insightful)
There isn't much that can be done in response to Russia. Military action is out of the question: One does not start an open war with a nuclear superpower lightly. Economic sanctions hurt both sites, and Europe needs Russia as much as Russia needs Europe. They supply the gas that keeps the lights on.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And both Regan and his Russian counterparts were sensible enough not to start a war - they were just very concerned the other side might, so prepared regardless and put defenses on a hair-trigger.
The cold war may be over, but Russia still has a decently impressive military, and the confidence that the most NATO will do is take back anywhere they invade. It'd be insane t actually try to invade Russia: The territory is inhospitable to anyone not extensively experienced, and if there is any prospect of them ac
Re: (Score:3)
So stop complaining that we did the wrong thing and tell us what we should have done. Put up or shut up. There's a LOT going on politically behind the scenes with ambassadors and such chatting in isolated rooms.
There are three options I can see:
1. Ignore it and let the EU sort it out
2. Sanctions and hard rhetoric, some military posturing in the region
3. Invasion to reclaim the occupied lands. we (US, GB, etc) invade, China assists Russia, India assists us, Pakistan, Iran and the reset of the nuclear nation
Re: (Score:2)
We have two and a half military forces on this planet worth considering in this discussion. Control of Europe matters only insofar as they give us friendly locations to stage military operations somewhat closer to Russia. And while the Mongol Horde may well erupt someday soon to conquer the entire planet, for now they seem content to pursue the American dream of owning the most disposable stuff.
So yeah, option #1 makes the most sense, because we won't actually g
Re: (Score:2)
My biggest fear is being killed before I've had a chance to watch the fireworks on the news.. just wanna see a couple of mushies go up first, because I'll likely never see the one that erases me!
Re: (Score:2)
Hello again APK. Off-topic and stalking my posting history because you *really* didn't enjoy your well-deserved public flogging at my hands. Please, come back again when you've something to actually contribute. This website is not here to provide an avenue for your hate mail against other posters when your vagina gets all red and swollen.
Re: (Score:2)
Ok, then tell me again why your list is relevant? Oh that's right, it's because you don't understand basic statistics, got it.
Could you really expect any other reply when this piss-weak 'argument' is all you've got?
Re: (Score:2)
Two things:
1) No sign of troops moving, so this order may be a sham meant to distract.
2) Putin has accomplished pretty much all his objectives already (he's annexed Crimea, he's pretty much annexed the eastern half of Ukraine, he's made it clear to Europe that HE controls their natural gas supply.
And on top of that, he's made it clear to the rest of eastern Eu
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Very Bad Precedent (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Very Bad Precedent (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Very Bad Precedent (Score:5, Interesting)
There is already a precedent. German soldiers were tried and sentenced for carrying out orders in the concentration camps.
Re: (Score:3)
But it wasn't that simple.
If they just had tried soldiers for carrying out orders, they would have had to hold the same measurements against their own soldiers (who of course were responsible for quite a number of civilian casualities, too) To escape that quandary, the "crimes against humanity" were invented. Which kept allied soldiers from prosecution for simply killing people, but allowed to sentence the leading german heads for industrial mass-killing.
(To be fair: the allied forces concentrated on hangin
Re: (Score:2)
Which kept allied soldiers from prosecution for simply killing people, but allowed to sentence the leading german heads for industrial mass-killing.
(To be fair: the allied forces concentrated on hanging the head honchos and turned a blind eye to the common grunts)
... was simple fact that allies won and Germany lost.
Re: (Score:2)
Probably.. but they had the basic decency to set up that construct instead of plain obvious victor's justice
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Very Bad Precedent (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Very Bad Precedent (Score:5, Insightful)
If it's unjust enough, yes.
First, if we hold people immune/not morally responsible for whatever they do as part of misbehaving organizations, we've removed one of the final checks and balances from these organizations. We've effectively capitulated, saying that when you get enough people together they can turn into a crushing, evil leviathan, as long as there's not a blatantly clear organizational criminal conspiracy. People should be people, making (and held accountable for) moral judgments about the actions they take.
My former boss made a mistake with the whole AMT thing. He exercised below market rate stock options and held the stock until the value went to 0. He made no actual money, but ended up with a tax liability and IRS employees systematically liquidating his assets. There are supposed to be things in the organization to protect against this-- an ombudsman, proscriptions against proceeding with such blatantly unfair and unaffordable collection practices, etc. He's in his late 60s and they just took everything. I think the people who didn't pull the organizational lever to stop the process, presumably because it wasn't helping them meet their collection targets, should be in prison.
Re: (Score:2)
"unjust" is totally a subjective concept. "Your racial equality is my reverse discrimination racism", etc.
Re: (Score:2)
Nonsense! We are not talking about if something is just or unjust, but whether it is criminal or not. If you perform a criminal act, you have performed a criminal act and will be treated
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And when you get indicted for saying something which is perfectly legal to say where you are, but a capital offense in some other country?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There's no extradition treaty so nothing. Even with an extradition treaty I doubt that anything would happen. If this was a simple crime such as murder, the Chinese still would not extradite but might try the suspect in China. This is what happened when a Chinese national killed his girl friend in Vancouver (actually Burnaby) and ran home to China. The Chinese refused to extradite and tried him themselves, though they did promise not to use the death penalty.
Re: (Score:2)
This is a VERY GOOD precedent to set. As soon as "the people" can't hide behind "just following orders" they will start to affect change.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You realize that there is effectively no difference between a government-denied chinese hacker and a "non official cover" spy right?
And if they aren't government-employed then this is the completely appropriate action.
In either case, I 'd say its better to get this out in the open where the justice system can work it through rather than just finger pointing. If they're not government-sponsored (as the Chinese claim) then the Chinese should be willing to pony up and extradite them! (The fundamental issue
Sanctions (Score:2)
Re:Sanctions (Score:5, Funny)
I can hear the quote from Zhang Gaoli already: "After analyzing the sanctions against our military officers, I suggest to the USA to make their iPads using cardboard and trained fireflies".
Oh, wait, China makes most of the world's cardboard, too. Hmm... Woven cat hairballs? I think we still have at least some domestic production of those, if Fluffy hasn't outsourced it to a Mexican Hairless (don't ask) yet...
Re: (Score:2)
Good luck with that, they make all the iPhones.
These indictments are pure lip service. (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting Strategy (Score:5, Informative)
Surely they're not going to get any cooperation from the Chinese government on this, but by naming these individuals, they could be limiting the future career choices of those individuals. Want to work at a foreign compa ny? might be tough. Want to travel to the US or country that has extradition with the US? Better think twice about that. Even if you want to work at a local Chinese company, you might not be able to command as high of a salary if you can't get competing offers from foreign companies. A high percentage of well moneyed and educated individuals in China have plans to emigrate to foreign countries with the growing pains China has on the horizon, and some talented folks might be dissuaded from this career path. How this will play out in the real world is hard to say, but If the US didn't think it would have some effect, I don't think they'd do it.
Re: (Score:2)
Quote the opposite I'd say, these people are likely to be lionised in China and have their careers furthered by being prosecuted. And if they really want to go abroad they can have new identities manufactured wholesale by their government. Global politics are a whole other level.
Re: (Score:2)
Diplomatic passport.
Re: (Score:2)
Diplomatic credentials are granted by the country you travel to, not the country you came from. The US would not grant diplomatic credentials to somebody wanted for a crime.
If it worked as you suggest, than countries would send in spies over the border unlawfully all the time and if they got caught they'd just be sent home to try again. The reason spies are sent in NOC is so that the country they're visiting doesn't know they're there, which also means that they can be arrested as they have no diplomatic
Re: (Score:2)
A high percentage of well moneyed and educated individuals in China have plans to emigrate to foreign countries ...
Yes, I've read this same thing many (or most) Chinese will emigrate given the opportunity. One reason is nobody can buy land in China (well maybe for top politburo members), you can lease but not like here in US where you can own it. Kind of like way back when in Europe only royals and nobles can buy land, and was motivator for commoners to take chances moving to the New World.
Getting back to this theme "Chinese stealing our secrets," not really, mostly these were given away (outsourcing).
Re: (Score:2)
No, there will be countries that would recognize the US having a right to extradite these people. You'ld need to study up on extradtion treaties before visiting any foreign country. Austrailia and New Zealand might be out, e.g. OTOH, Thailand, Viet Nam, Cambodia, etc. are probably safe. Don't know about India or Sri Lanka. Might want to take careful precautions before stepping outside of Russia in Europe. Etc. And that's for legal extradition. There have been occasions where "extradition" was a poli
The US complains about spying... (Score:2)
China is hacking? There's a surprise (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm just going to have a heart attack and DIE from that surprise..
This is SO STUPID. If you cannot get your hands on the hackers to arrest them, then why bother with saying anything? Just keep the honey pot in place and keep tracing where the attacks are coming from. Then, when you can get your hands on them it's special rendition time. This tell the public what happened only serves to notify everybody that you got hacked and then trying to take legal action to punish the hackers which has no hope of doing anything says you are inept and clueless too.
You knew I would drink from the glass in front of me, so you switched the glasses so the one in front of me has the poison... BUT, you knew I would think that so CLEARLY the glass in front of you has the poison.... etc.. We are right at the "Never get in a land war in Asia.. " Line being spoken by this administration, only they are not wearing the mask.
Re: (Score:2)
Personally i always like seeding and feeding the honeypot very valuable information that looks legit but is actual wrong in a way that only lots of time and money spent trying to implement reveals..
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
the NSA reworking network shipped out of the country also is industrial espionage
Hilarity ensues (Score:4, Interesting)
For decades now we've treated the Internet like an open house with everybody welcome and everybody allowed to come in and browse. As more and more technologies/designs/secrets have been put into computer systems they've been linked via Intranets within organizations and more importantly, and stupidly, on the Internet in the name of saving time or they've just been exposed because the people who are supposed to protect that information are incompetent idiots. That's the root cause here, not protecting the information that's held in those systems. China and other governments have employed script kiddies and any other tactics like purchased vulnerabilities to dig in, but again it's up to the holders of that data to protect it and to know what kind of enemies they're up against. Industrial espionage is nothing new, it's been around for centuries so why are we all shocked that this is allowed to happen? The secrets of the A-Bomb were leaked out of Los Alamos by sympathetic spies and some were executed for it. The B-29 bomber, a program that cost more than the A-Bomb to develop, was completely reverse engineered from one aircraft that made an emergency landing in the Soviet Union. It was copied right down to the same overheating engine problem that destroyed many of the aircraft. Chinese spies have recently been sent to prison for espionage [newyorker.com] so why is this suddenly news?
While I'm glad that the US Govt. is trying to do something about all of this it's a bit late and ultimately it's up to all the industries that have technology worth stealing to start taking steps to protect their IP and their confidential information. This also means protecting yourself from the US government because as we all know the NSA is also passively watching everything you do. My suggesting is that there should be sufficient air gaps between your R&D/Competitive information and Intranets/Internet for starters and also start employing a risk mitigation strategy in your data handling practices because chances are your sensitive information is probably already public knowledge somewhere.
Well well well (Score:2)
Look who is calling who a thief....
Do you hear that? (Score:4, Funny)
Do you here that? It's the sound of a billion people on the other side of the world loling.
Re: (Score:2)
And small change...
http://www.worldometers.info/w... [worldometers.info]
Re: (Score:2)
Did you really just spell that word two different ways in the space of two sentences????
Not that I disagree with the sentiment. I think someone is trying for distraction from the NSA in the news, and also trying to get over looking like an idiot with regards to Russia, Syria, and Iran. Especially Syria. 160K dead so far, and the USA hasn't even been able to stop Assad from using chemical weapons.
Shocked! Shocked! (Score:2)
I am shocked! Shocked! to learn that the Chinese are hacking us! We would never do such a thing!
Re: (Score:2)
Captain Renault: I am shocked to find that espionage occurs in this establishment.
Minion: Here are your data, sir.
Dave Aitel (CEO Immunity, Inc.) says it best (Score:4, Informative)
@daveaitel [twitter.com] All espionage is illegal in the country you do it against.
And since everyone in the world in any country, especially banks [irs.gov] (under FACTA) and foreign officials are under US jurisdiction, why not indict?
Chinese official response (Score:4, Interesting)
Chinese official response (in Chinese): http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_ch... [fmprc.gov.cn]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This data is exactly how the Chinese put most of the US based solar panel makers out of business.
I figured they pulled that one off by not giving a shit about things like the environment or reasonable pay.
Re:presumably... (Score:4)
Allow me to summarize the American legal system when it comes to international affairs:
Anything done by the U.S. = Legal
Anything done by U.S. corporations = Legal
Anything done by any country the U.S. doesn't like = Illegal
Anything done by any corporation that doesn't play ball with the U.S. = Illegal
Re: (Score:2)
So let me get this straight: to encourage peace, you'd like us to ENGAGE in a policy of cyberwar in the hopes that a little drubbing from us will prove too much for them?
Dream on. Global politics are MUCH more complicated than you might imagine
Re: (Score:2)
And in the real world, people would be asking, "Why is it OK for the US government to commit exactly those same crimes and get away with it?"
It's quite simple, the USA is the World's watchdog and policeman. It keeps everyone else in line and tries to get rid of the worst of the bullies, barbarians and bandit lords. The USA may be a bit of a "jerk" itself, but who would you rather have running the world? The Five Eyes, or Russia or China. When push comes to shove, even the USA's critics would rather have the USA managing the show.
Re: (Score:2)
When push comes to shove, even the USA's critics would rather have the USA managing the show.
I'm in NZ so I'm going to have to agree with you - but only just. As for much of the rest of the world, you're probably going to get [citation needed] by way of response.
Re: (Score:2)
As for much of the rest of the world, you're probably going to get [citation needed] by way of response.
Yeah, they may grumble about the Five Eyes spying on absolutely everyone , but deep down they know what I said is true, even if they don't want to admit it.
Re: (Score:2)
Babbage, if you're trying to find the invention.
WRT Eniac, there were even earlier general purpose electronic computers, though they were basically toys and research tools (At least one of them was German.)
P.S.: The IBM 7090 didn't use transistors. It used vacum tubes. And it was definitely a modern computer.
Re:Oblig frosty (Score:5, Insightful)
US?
What a bunch of arrogant, hypocritical pricks. The whole NSA SHITHOUSE [reuters.com] comes down around their ears, with backdoored network devices [theguardian.com] and eavesdropping on world leaders [spiegel.de] - then these paragons of fucking virtue blame "cyber war" on individuals in a foreign government?
Why the fuck don't they haul meglomaniac Keith Alexander off of his fucking starship [techdirt.com] and drag his sorry arse, along with Elmer Fudd [examiner.com]^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Michael Hayden, into the dock?
China has a developed diplomatic culture. This type of International behavior from the US is pure "play at home" propaganda, with the diplomatic effect of a bull in a china-shop, so to speak. Offensive, ignorant, unnecessary, and duplicitous.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm more disposed to this particular view...
You put your secrets on computers which are exposed to the internet? STUPID!
I can't blame the Chinese or the Russians or some school kid in Vallejo, California, for prying in and having a look around, if companies are so damn stupid about erecting barriers between Trade Secrets hosting systems and an outside world. How about building an intranet, encrypting resources, creating VPNs which require a key, employing something like Kerberos to verify some user on a
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah. I'm the 6-Foot, blue-eyed, bi-racial Chinese bloke. Get a nanker on your phelge.