No Shortage In Tech Workers, Advocacy Groups Say 401
sabri writes To have a labor shortage or not to have, that's the question. According to the San Jose Mercury News: Last month, three tech advocacy groups launched a labor boycott against Infosys, IBM and the global staffing and consulting company ManpowerGroup, citing a "pattern of excluding U.S. workers from job openings on U.S soil." They say Manpower, for example, last year posted U.S. job openings in India but not in the United States." "It's getting pretty frustrating when you can't compete on salary for a skilled job," said Rich Hajinlian, a veteran computer programmer from the Boston area. "You hear references all the time that these big companies ... can't find skilled workers. I am a skilled worker."
Effect? (Score:3, Funny)
A labor boycott against tech companies that don't want to hire Americans? It's hard to see that as being effective.
it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:3, Interesting)
The US is awash in certain kinds of skilled tech workers: Java programmers, web programmers, iOS app programmers, and more. It's not hard to find them, nor is there any kind of shortage.
But for more complex work, the best qualified workers are from overseas. Go look in any US comp-sci graduate program, and try to find the Americans. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Back? How many did you find? 10%? 20% And from my experience interviewing them, they are often not the cream of the crop. Don't get me wrong, there are some really top notch American students coming out of graduate programs, but that's the exception, not the rule. If you want a deep understanding of theory, rather than another Java coder, it's hard to find that in the US. Not impossible. Just hard.
Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:5, Informative)
I'll call you on your trolling and bs. My wife works in the Comp Sci department at a major university and also works *with* people in the programs at others. Well over half the grad students in most programs are born and raised in the US, and many of the best candidates are from the US. This story is about outsourcing based on cost, not on 'deep understanding of theory'. If you're not trolling you're just woefully wrong.
Re: it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:5, Informative)
I've been around such graduate departments before. Having a department of 50+ students where you can count the Americans on one hand actually seems exactly like what I remember.
Re: it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:4, Insightful)
The best and brightest US students go to the top schools--Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Berkeley, etc. At Podunk U, they need to recruit overseas to get the indentured servants, a.k.a. grad students, to do the research and teach the undergrads.
Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is awash in certain kinds of skilled tech workers: Java programmers, web programmers, iOS app programmers, and more. It's not hard to find them, nor is there any kind of shortage.
But for more complex work, the best qualified workers are from overseas. Go look in any US comp-sci graduate program, and try to find the Americans. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Back? How many did you find? 10%? 20% And from my experience interviewing them, they are often not the cream of the crop. Don't get me wrong, there are some really top notch American students coming out of graduate programs, but that's the exception, not the rule. If you want a deep understanding of theory, rather than another Java coder, it's hard to find that in the US. Not impossible. Just hard.
OK, so let's go with what you said about the dearth of Americans in comp-sci grad programs is true and that certain high-level skills are found only in people in those programs. How many people are we talking about in all the good schools grad programs? a few thousand? And how many jobs are there that REQUIRE the skills found only in the grad school programs? a few thousand, maybe?
However, there are about 600,000 H1B workers in the USA. How many of these do you believe have the skills only found in comp-sci grad programs, or more to the point, how many of those don't have and don't need grad school comp-sci skills?
My point is that while what you said is true, it has nothing to do with what the complaint is.
The H1B program is designed to obtain the kinds of people you were talking about, but the program is in fact being used to hire an enormous numbers of very ordinary people whose main feature is they work for less money.
Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not that the new support staff is incompetent and useless. It's that your company's executives are incompetent and useless.
Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:5, Interesting)
That is a common problem, nationwide today. When companies go bankrupt, it seldom has anything to do with the employees. That is especially true when there is no union to protect incompetent or lazy employees. Companies tank every day it seems - and management always cites problems caused by employees. That is true in high tech, low tech, and everything in between.
We just experienced a takeover. Call it hostile, or not - fact is, management ran the company into the ground in a number of ways. A decade of neglect in maintenance resulted in a number of machines that require overhauls costing nearly half of their new purchase price. The new owners certainly don't WANT to spend that money, but they are spending.
Quality control? The company's weakest point - we simply don't have people qualified to read micrometers or calipers. They find parts that don't guage, and immediately QC calls on maintenance and tooling to "fix it". Well - fuck me running - I can't fix an incompetent fool who can't read a precision measuring instrument! But, the new owners are almost as bad as the old - they won't HIRE qualified personnel to read those instruments! They seem to believe that a ten dollar employee off of the street can do the job of a thirty or fifty dollar trained and experienced person! The QC people aren't even the best of the people available - the jobs are put up for bid, and the people with the flappiest gums get the job. Bidding? Might as well just admit that nepotism rules, and not bother with the bidding process.
To put things in perspective - the old owners had plants in 5 different states. Each of the other plants consistently lost money. Our plant consistently MADE MONEY, despite mismanagement. Quarter after quarter, the accountants posted profits from our plant. In effect, we carried four other money losing plants for years. The owners could never bring themselves to unload the money losers, instead taking the profits we earned to shore up the other plants. They followed that policy until bankruptcy put them out of the game completely.
How much more incompetent can any group of managers be?
Re:it depends on what "skilled worker" means. (Score:4, Insightful)
To put things in perspective - the old owners had plants in 5 different states. Each of the other plants consistently lost money. Our plant consistently MADE MONEY, despite mismanagement. Quarter after quarter, the accountants posted profits from our plant. In effect, we carried four other money losing plants for years. The owners could never bring themselves to unload the money losers, instead taking the profits we earned to shore up the other plants. They followed that policy until bankruptcy put them out of the game completely.
Were any of those plants making key inputs for yours? If they were, and it wasn't practical to consolidate that function, then closing them down would have crippled you. Which individual plants make money is one thing, but where there's internal transfer of items between units of the business, the value attached to those items is fairly nominal in practice; it's the overall business that really makes the profit or the loss.
Or maybe they're just incompetent fucks. That could be true too. Hard to say without the full facts, but the fact that bankruptcy hit is strongly indicative.
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No, none were making parts for us. The plant in Mississippi was kind of a sister plant to us - they made similar products, many of them going to the same customers. When that plant finally closed, their tools and equipment came to us, and we took over their production, in addition to our own. The products made on those machines weren't especially profitable, but we made some profit on them, whereas the management in Miss. consistently lost money on the same tools.
The plant in St. Louis was intended to fe
19,000 (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:19,000 (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are going to do business in America, then you need to hire Americans. Otherwise don't expect the benefit of doing business in our economy. Don't reap the rewards of safety and US government sponsorship if you aren't going to contribute to our economy by hiring local. Stop being leeches.
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Sounds nice, but without explicit control over what American companies are allowed to do at/across the border, (and foreign companies the other way) it's not going to happen. Right now, the door is wide open in every way: Hire offshore and have the hires work here *or* there, keep your money offshore and avoid taxes with blissful ease, manufacture elsewhere, all the while you're paying off congress and whatever agencies are involved.
Sure, corporations are people. Sociopaths. Psychopaths. Those kinds of peop
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The fact that people in other countries are lining up to do the same work for cheap is concrete proof that it isn't as difficult work as you think.
Or, y'know, that cost-of-living varies by location and that salaries are a function of the relative strengths of the parties' positions (which are in part influenced by how difficult a job is; but only in part)...
The people 'getting so worked up' are doing so because the company's best interests are directly at odds with their own, and if they had any lingering doubts about how the story ends, they can just ask those once-practically-middle-class manufacturing workers in rustbelt hellholes. Its...totall
Re:19,000 (Score:5, Insightful)
"company's best interests"
Does that company want to sell it's product at "American" prices? Then it needs people ( customers, you know ) that *earn* "American" wages.
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Does that company want to sell it's product at "American" prices? Then it needs people ( customers, you know ) that *earn* "American" wages.
Those customers aren't going to be its employees. And it can always sell to the developing world.
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"Those customers aren't going to be its employees"
That isn't what it looks like from where I sit.
"And it can always sell to the developing world."
Yes, but only at prices confirming to the developing world's wages.
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Yeah, sure.
But why can they sell for that price? Because enough people had it to spend and wanted it.
Why did they have it to spend? Because they *made* enough money. Wages. Higher wages.
Since these companies send the work overseas, fewer people here have that much money.
The owners of America are basically encouraging wage arbitrage because they can pick up a good number more dollars doing it.
But don't forget, markets work. As we ship more of the jobs overseas, the average wage here will fall. ( is this
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They don't want to sell at "American" prices, they want to compete with developing nations directly. For American companies it's a race to the bottom.
The irony is that for everyone else it's a race to the top. Developing nations want to improve quality so they can charge more. Countries like Germany already produce top notch stuff and can charge a premium for it, while remaining reasonably priced.
Re:19,000 (Score:4, Insightful)
But not elsewhere. So why in the wide wide world of sports would they hire American's? It just doesn't make any sense. It is not life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and a guaranteed 6 figure income. That is not how any of this works.
How come all the shills in this thread defending hiring 3rd world workers for 1st world company jobs are all Anonymous Cowards? Are they all Social Media Strategists for ManPower and Infosys? Just asking.
It probably will not go over well in this venue, but I just don't see how people can get so worked up at companies for doing what's in the company's best interests
Well part of the issue is that often times it is clearly not in the company's best interest - certainly not in the long term, and even more often not if the company relies on any decent level of customer satisfaction to survive and compete.
There's a reason they don't want to hire American's, and it's because they cost too much. The fact that people in other countries are lining up to do the same work for cheap is concrete proof that it isn't as difficult work as you think.
And yet, clearly, they are NOT doing the same work. Sure, they're lining up - with worthless 3rd world degrees handed out from a corrupt system and paper qualifications that make them appear qualified while they can't figure out how to poor piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.
Recent labor statistics show that productivity in the US has dropped significantly in the last few years. Want to know why? American workers replaced with cheap labor. It's been happening for more than 5 years, but the results are now starting to be felt in the labor market as a whole.
There is no getting around the fact that you can find skilled workers from anywhere, and you will find paper-qualified workers that are incompetent boobs from anywhere, but I've been in IT for a long time, and the fact is, if you want decent skills, you have to pay for it. Period.
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with combined political clout to fight against the existence of the H1B program we would stand a chance of maintaining decent wages. Existing H1B workers should be offered the choice of Lawful Permanent Resident so they can stay if they want or return to their home country.
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what about the power to tell your boss my license is on the line and I will not sign off on that buggy rushed POS code that your want out now.
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You must live in a terrible area. In any metro area with any amount of economic activity, you could definitely find a job within a decade even if you aren't the greatest.
Not much sign of skill... (Score:5, Insightful)
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IBM and Oracle et al. are known to "butter up" their customers. Bribery works for politicians and it works in the private sector, with the same result: Expensive useless bullshit that kicks merit and fairness in the nuts.
The goal of 1st world countries (Score:5, Interesting)
To employ people for $5,000 and sell products to people who make $80,000.
They do not see the fundamental problem.
It will resolve itself. Wages in china and india are up to $5,000 now and still doubling every 2-4 years (lower wages doubling faster).
Of course, that leaves the problem of robotics- which right now- today- can do work for less than poverty level wages in most of the world- and are only getting better an cheaper.
Robot repair jobs are two orders of magnitude less (1 worker and robots replaces 1000 workers). Automated procedures is replacing most of the thinking jobs.
The only jobs left will be "creative" jobs. Where the creative part of your jobs is less than half of your job- look for outsourcing. And about, oh, at least half of the global population isn't well suited for creative jobs since they are (by definition) below average intelligence.
Either a free stuff utopia or some kind of really terrible future is just down the road.
Hopefully after I'm dead of course.
Re:The goal of 1st world countries (Score:4, Interesting)
Free stuff utopia. Government provides a basic income to all who want it, financed at zero cost through the Fed. Biz pays whatever low wages it wants so there's no wage-price spiral. Challenges stimulate individuals to innovate disruptively on their own without having to work for a business (unless they want to). Standards of living rise faster, there is more leisure time, and poverty is eliminated.
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A robot doesn't replace 1000 workers.
A group of robots supported by a few human workers replace 1000 workers. They cost 1/3 the price, don't make mistakes, don't get sick, etc.
Other machinists don't agree with you on the replacement aspect.
http://www.goiam.org/publicati... [goiam.org]
http://motherboard.vice.com/bl... [vice.com]
"That's according to a 2013 Oxford study, which was highlighted in this week's Economist cover story. That study attempted to tally up the number of jobs that were susceptible to automization, and, surpris
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Creativity is not related to intelligence.
But you probably do need above average creativity to make a living from it, so that still leaves half the planet without career options.
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Who says that the free stuff "utopia" is not the terrible future.
The term you are looking for is "distopia". See: 1984, Animal Farm, Hunger Games, Brave New World, and Agenda 21, for starters.
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Yeah, if you try to explain to the average person how close we are to mass unemployment with just one breakthrough in AI they generally shrug or say "yeah, but a computer can't do my job."
If our economy doesn't want to change, then I'm just going to be sure to make it "onto the ark". The global economy is not going to correct itself IMO. It would require such a large commitment to fundamental change from everybody that I expect the current trend to continue. If people don't want the system that oppresse
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I'm sorry to say, but if I am to automate some jobs, I will probably start with the creative ones. In most creative works, those can be distilled to sequences of elements from a fairly small set (notes, words), there are reasonable constraints to limit the possible space, those rules can be deduced by a neural networks, the results can be easily tested.
If you want to keep your job, pick one with fairly simple procedure but large space of ever changing exceptions with few discernible patterns.
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In most creative works, those can be distilled to sequences of elements from a fairly small set (notes, words), there are reasonable constraints to limit the possible space, those rules can be deduced by a neural networks, the results can be easily tested.
Give it a try then, if it's so easy to do.
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I think this has already happened. Most "creative" movies, TV shows and advertising are so derivative and trite that they could have been written by a hacked up Eliza bot.
Re:The goal of 1st world countries (Score:4, Insightful)
And about, oh, at least half of the global population isn't well suited for creative jobs since they are (by definition) below average intelligence.
I wouldn't equate falling below the 50th percentile in IQ with inability to do anything but the most menial work. First, because I don't think intelligence should be defined that narrowly, and second, because it's fucking insulting. The vast majority of workers displaced by technology are not incapable of doing other work. They just lost a game of musical chairs, and there are huge obstacles for anyone trying to get back in the game.
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No things like pastors, editors, dentists, certain lawyers, ad executives, project management, inventors, certain freelance artists, etc.
Of course some creativity won't be worth keeping so it will be designed out when the process is automated.
Example: I was on a project in 2009. Rewrite the purchase order system. It turned out to be hugely complicated because every form on the P.O. form was overloaded and when we finished there were actually 31 ways to create P.O.s. Which meant a big project, budget, et
I've seen this in too many companies... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not all H-1Bs are bad. I have seen talent from Europe and the UK brought in because they are just fscking phenomenal. Their specialization was extremely important. However, these days, H-1B workers are just hauled in because they are cheap, easy to kick around, and disappear when done, such as a company that changes the developers out every 89 days.
One place I worked at hired a lot of H-1Bs, and the reason for it is that "Americans sabotage and sue, foreign workers can be trusted far more. Ever see a H-1B tie us up in courts?" Every place I have seen that has H-1Bs has bragged about their quality above native talent. Cognitive dissonance? Same companies that brag about that have at best a mediocre end product.
The ironic thing is that this cheapness causes damage in ways that the management drones don't even think about. I've worked with H-1Bs who were copying entire source code trees onto removable media. As soon as they went home, all that code would be theirs to do whatsoever they wanted. The CAD files and formula timings? All theirs to use, free of charge once they got home. As soon as they left US soil, NDAs didn't apply to them.
pay em what they're worth (Score:5, Insightful)
I've got no problem with immigrants that are "taking american jobs" if they are more skilled. I do however, have a problem if they are being paid substantially less than me. If they are that good they should be paid at least as much if not more than their american counter parts.
That would solve the "shortage" really quick.
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Thats really not realistic as a public policy position, however. It would be much easier politically to kill the H1B program than it would be to do wage controls. Thats why killing the H1B program is what must happen. We dont need it, all it is doing is putting hard working American IT workers out on the street. I think what we need to do is create PACs and such to advocate for abolishment of the H1B program and to do battle with Mark Fuckerberg and other anti-american worker jackasses.
Have you actually tried hiring these days? (Score:2)
Don't get me wrong, there are many people looking who think they're qualified. I just don't agree. I'm not even looking for particular skills or experience. Just people who are genuinely into technology.
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So post the info here. (Score:3)
So post it here.
Yes. Usually. So you have to offer them something MORE than they have at their current job to make them willing to take a risk on a new job.
Yeah. You might want to re-evaluate your criteria.
At least narrow it down to w
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Not all businesses allow you to post jobs to Slashdot, although
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I think I nailed the point. YOU claim that YOU cannot find people to hire for a position that YOU cannot identify or even characterize. Is it programming? Is it networking?
Any yet YOU cannot characterize the position that YOU claim YOU have open except:
So you will train people who are not currently qualified ... but there isn't anyone
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You and everyone else saying they can't find people, post your actual jobs offers and we'll tell you why we don't want to work for you or how you could improve the ad to find us.
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I have to call BS on that one. I live in Austin, and when I needed decent programmers for a startup business, I went to a couple nearby colleges and talked with the CS faculty. After the profs asked for students who were interested in their classes, I got a list of names of students, then approached them about a job request part-time.
Yes, they were untested and were college students, but when I offered them more than the minimum wage and the ability to code from home, I got the talent I needed.
I would say
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But that said I have a great problem with how HR and hiring is done. They make a huge list of experience requirements. News flash- we geeks figure stuff out fast! I just taught myself Visual Basic (quickly). All I need is a goal and I figure things out (well).
In my experience, ordinary people (non-geeks) are totally incapable of learning. They can be trained to do specific tasks but will never figure things out on their own. HR and hiring managers only know how to hire ordinary people and cannot comprehend anyone else. You will fail every interview if you say you can "figure stuff out fast" because the interviewers will assume you are lying.
When they say 'skilled' they mean 'cheap' (Score:4, Insightful)
Word substitution is a common ESL problem.
There's a Ferrari shortage too... (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't buy a Ferrari for $100, by the same logic, that means there *must* be a Ferrari shortage! Something must be done!!!
Hint: reward good people, and you won't have problems finding good people. The problem is these miserly capitalist/MBA types who feel tech types are getting all "uppity" for wanting a decent salary for their 4 year STEM degree and often 2-6 years of grad school to boot, because doing that takes away from their quarterly bonus.
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I can't buy a Ferrari for $100, by the same logic, that means there *must* be a Ferrari shortage! Something must be done!!!
I can agree to that!
Class conflict (Score:4, Insightful)
I think there's an obvious class conflict when it comes to STEM fields. Wages are high enough that it challenges the corporate class structure that dictates what field should be paid more than other fields.
My wife works in marketing for a company that makes an engineered product and we had a fairly heated discussion about this once. Without thinking about the implications, she actually said that marketing was more important than engineering and marketing should always be paid more. Raising engineering salaries above some ceiling wasn't an option.
Now, my wife isn't a mean spirited snob but I think she genuinely meant this and I think it reflects the class consciousness in corporate thinking.
Strangely I never see this mentioned in articles about H1-Bs and STEM workers. It always seems to devolve into an unresolvable debate involving conflicting macoeconomic labor statistics.
Temporary Foreign Workers (Score:2)
The Canadian government has been put on the spot to the point, that they actually have to act on behalf of Canadian WORKERS, rather than employers.
Keeping fighting to keep this issue current and in the news. It's terrible
Ban need degree and ban degree for X school (Score:2)
Ban need degree and ban degree for X school.
also if you want have more Hb1's then get rid of student loans.
also medical care for all
Green Card Irony (Score:3)
American capitalism hates American workers. They put greed above all, even the sustainability of the US economy. Why the hell are we putting up with this?
remove health care from jobs (Score:2)
so they don't have to pay for the added cost of health care that is not needed with temps / Hb1's
Living in Colorado, and yes, there is a shortage (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe CO is a bubble, but from what I see there is a MASSVE shortage of people. My company tried for almost a year to find good tech people. Begged, scrounged, tried to poach, nada. The jobs may not be the best paying, ~$120k/year, but that's pretty decent I think. 6/10 applicants are Indians, 2/10 are chinese and 2/10 are American. I've been involved in some of the interviewing, searching, hiring, ...
Out of those,
The Chinese folks seem to have their ducks in a row. They ain't great on the innovation part and you have to spent a LOT of time steering them, but at least they work hard.
The Indians spend most of their time emailing management about how awesome they (the Indians) are, rather than doing any actual work.
The Americans seem to be stuck in the glory days of post-WWII when America didn't have any real competition (rest of the world was smoldering ashes) so they now seem allergic to the concept of hard work. Ladies and Gentlemen, office/IT/tech work does not mean you don't have to WORK! and no, you are not harder workers than the rest of the world or more innovative or more irreplacable. Get off your asses!, > 2 hrs of real work a day is NOT asking too much. Crist, walk around and all you see is facebook or amazon accounts on people's machines.
It's awful! It took a full year to finally find just a couple good people. We also picked up some fresh grads and interns (looking towards the future), but greenhornes take several years to spin up.
You know the funny/frustrating part? The resume's of 9/10 of those above will be about 80% the same. Everyone thinks they have unique skills, but honestly, you don't. Showing that you can actually work hard sets you apart, but precious few people actually go that route.
No, I'm not management. I'm just another tech geek. Lest you think otherwise, all that above applies to management as much as it does to workers.
Yes, I'm anonymous because I have coworkers who browse here and I don't want to get hassled.
Hate it if you want, ignore it if you want, agree with it if you want, that's what I see in my corner of the US.
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Let Me Translate::::: (Score:2)
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Insightful)
What about the large number of job descriptions that are written up that essentially no single individual could fill? You know what I mean, postings that have 15 required disparate skills, with 5+ years experience in each?
Then these companies use the lack of qualified applicants as an excuse to go shopping overseas. Let's face it, the number of companies pulling this kind of stunt FAR outweigh the number of "think they're super-awesome and really aren't" employees.
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Interesting)
With many of these odd job descriptions you speak of, I suspect many of them are cases where said company has already identified the specific individual they want to get an H-1B visa for. So this is essentially a copy of their unique resume. They just need to publicly post the job to fulfill a legal requirement before they can get them the visa.
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Informative)
With many of these odd job descriptions you speak of, I suspect many of them are cases where said company has already identified the specific individual they want to get an H-1B visa for. So this is essentially a copy of their unique resume. They just need to publicly post the job to fulfill a legal requirement before they can get them the visa.
It is not for H1B, it is after the H1B to get the green card. There is a step called employment verification or something like that.
Basically, it's a step to get someone off H1B status and into a permanent resident of the US.
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, it's a step to get someone off H1B status and into a permanent resident of the US.
This makes no sense. Why would an employer want a permanent resident instead of an H1B? A permanent resident can quit and go work elsewhere, and is no better than hiring a US citizen. But an H1B visa is tied to a specific company, so if they quit their job, or are fired, they are sent back to where they came from, at their own expense. As an employer, I love H1Bs, because I can make them work long hours on tight deadlines, and if they complain I can threaten to send them back to Bangalore. Also, since H1Bs have to be paid the same as US citizens, I can use them as an excuse to hold down salaries across the board. If a US citizen employee starts whining about wanting a raise, I can tell him that if I give him a raise, I will be legally required to give the same raise to all of the H1Bs, and since there isn't enough money in the budget for that, it mean no raise for you! Heh, heh.
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Basically, it's a step to get someone off H1B status and into a permanent resident of the US.
This makes no sense. Why would an employer want a permanent resident instead of an H1B? A permanent resident can quit and go work elsewhere, and is no better than hiring a US citizen. But an H1B visa is tied to a specific company, so if they quit their job, or are fired, they are sent back to where they came from, at their own expense. As an employer, I love H1Bs, because I can make them work long hours on tight deadlines, and if they complain I can threaten to send them back to Bangalore. Also, since H1Bs have to be paid the same as US citizens, I can use them as an excuse to hold down salaries across the board. If a US citizen employee starts whining about wanting a raise, I can tell him that if I give him a raise, I will be legally required to give the same raise to all of the H1Bs, and since there isn't enough money in the budget for that, it mean no raise for you! Heh, heh.
The law was changed over 15 years ago to allow the same H1B to be used when changing jobs.
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Informative)
The law was changed over 15 years ago to allow the same H1B to be used when changing jobs.
You can transfer an H1-B, but the employer who currently holds it has to approve the transfer. The employer holding it can refuse to perform a transfer, and prevent the operation.
The law you refer to assumes cooperation between the parties.
It's occasionally found for some companies to basically hold "H1-B" and "Green Card Application" hostages to work at lower wages. I've worked at a couple of companies which I later found out employed this tactic, and I've seen several contracting agencies that contract for work, H1-B in workers, and then take up to 70% "commission" on the contract wages on top of everything else.
Technically, there is no such thing as a H1B transfer, there is only an H1B application. Only the hiring company is involved in an H1B application. It is utter and absolute made-up nonsense that the former employer has to approve anything.
I have heard that H1B and green card petitions are treated as mini-promotion steps. Instead of raises or promotions, sponsorships are given. Perhaps some smaller unscrupulous "contractor" organizations will do that. In the larger corporations, H1B and green card petitions are done as soon as possible as company policy and promised as such before employment is finalized.
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Interesting)
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you mean it's hard to find acceptable developers at the wage the company wants to pay.
Employers generally don't make a specific salary offer until after an interview. So if what you said was true, we would be interviewing plenty of qualified candidates, making salary offers, and then having those offers rejected. But that is NOT what I have experienced. We are simply not finding many qualified people. When we do find someone, they almost always either accept our offer, or reject it for reasons other than the salary, such as commute distance. We pay $80k-$90k for college graduate startin
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Companies getting H1b-s generally fall into two categories:
1) Companies with crappy jobs designed to allow people to move to the US. These companies are sometimes called 'bodyshops'. Their employees usually work for 6-12 months and then transfer the hell out of them.
2) Good software companie
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Your story sounds like BS.
We are simply not finding many qualified people
You aren't looking very hard then, I know several people who are very good developers, including a Google developer who had to move due to family reasons and simply couldn't stay at Google. I assure you, she was qualified for anything she applied for. So maybe you live in that one place that doesn't have any qualified workers, but since there are people claiming that pretty much everywhere, I call bullshit.
or reject it for reasons other than the salary, such as commute distance.
Another bullshit line. They really went through the entire interview proc
Re: Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Funny)
and yet there's no shortage of English majors...
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It's probably more like HR incompetence than any company conspiracy theory. HR don't understand tech. Recruiters don't understand tech. Having them both looking for and vetting candidates prior to giving the resumes to the team leaders is often counter productive.
I've been on both sides of coin many times and every time dealing with HR and or recruiters is incredibly frustrating.
Right now we're hiring. Truth is we probably get 6 times the number of H1B applicants compared to US applicants. Many US appl
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Insightful)
easy to get multiple masters degrees when you don't have to pay for them or need skills other then being able to cram for tests
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Nope, it's a conspiracy.
Go to youtube.
Search for
"avoid hiring americans"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
"Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. "
And...
Lou Dobbs: Law Firm teaches how to avoid hiring Americans
A law firm is teaching corporations how to get aroun
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Insightful)
It also filters out workers unwilling to lie.
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Also, a foreigner is less likely to job-hop for a better salary after a year.
Um, yeah; especially if their visa doesn't allow them to.
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Informative)
H1-Bs in America currently have two options: 1) Remain at current sponsoring employer or 2) go home, because quitting means immediate revocation of their visa.
2B: Hop to an employer that is willing to sponsor a change in their H1-B.
From Wikipedia: [wikipedia.org]
Despite a limit on length of stay, no requirement exists that the individual remain for any period in the job the visa was originally issued for. This is known as H-1B portability or transfer, provided the new employer sponsors another H-1B visa
From the employees perspective, there is one problem with this: once an employer has started the permanent residency (greencard) process, it is a bad idea to move because you'll be starting all over again.
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Gotta love rules that almost enforce a form of slavery.
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Insightful)
Total BS. I'd take a American IT worker with an inflated ego over a corporate bean counter any day. I've been in the IT field since 1979, and trust me, I'm an expert in my speciality. They might be able to replace me with someone and pay then 1/2 of what I make, but they're not going to get my skillset.
Knowing what to do when things are going along swimmingly is easy. When the shit hits the fan, getting the corporate mainframe back running in minutes rather than hours, or G-d forbid days is worth every penny they pay me. I know it, the people who've been working with me for *mumble* years know it.
A bean counter, I doubt it.
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Total BS. I'd take a American IT worker with an inflated ego over a corporate bean counter any day. I've been in the IT field since 1979, and trust me, I'm an expert in my speciality. They might be able to replace me with someone and pay then 1/2 of what I make, but they're not going to get my skillset.
Do you realize you just confirmed what GP's saying?
"Trust me, I'm THAT good".
"No foreigner has my skillset".
"I'm an expert".
Seen quite a few people with exactly those statements who were smashed from a skillset perspective by some guy whose name one needs half a day to spell properly (e.g. Kumar Bheemasandralakshminarayana).
Never say never.
On a more general note, more often than not people substitute a thick accent with lack of intelligence. "He can't speak English very well therefore he's dumb". They couldn't be further from the truth.
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While there certainly are H1Bs from various nations who are very talented and capable, they are not the ones that will be willing to work for peanuts. Someone who is good at what they do and in demand is smart enough to know they can make more money and will demand first world pay. The H1Bs that will work for peanuts are either low-skilled or just don't have much experience and will leave your cheapass company just as soon as someone else offers them a little more money which won't take long. Any way you sl
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Well structured comment, but there's one tiny thing that you (and most companies, for that matter) didn't consider.
Most companies (actually ALL companies I have information about) make the same big mistake: they mix cultures together in teams. It's a bad decision. of course, they're trying to be "politically correct" and shooting themselves in the foot in the process.
Something happened by mistake in our company during a reorg. Two large development teams were reorganized with developers being moved from one
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:4, Interesting)
A bean counter, I doubt it.
I think understanding that downtime costs money is exactly the thing a "bean counter" would know.
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Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
It works.
Re:Two sides to every issue (Score:5, Informative)
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1/3 the wage for 1/20 the functionality.
I see management issues driving this rather than true economics. First, managers count dollars per headcount, totally ignoring dollars per successful project. Second, if management has more people reporting to them then management uses it as justification for promotions for themselves. Third, it's slave labor that management can abuse, force to work unpaid hours, and can't escape to a better job. Abuse is far easier than skill and results.
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While it is true that businesses create job descriptions specifically designed to eliminate American workers, it is *also* true that plenty of American IT workers think they are super-awesome and really aren't.
Yes, I've seen lots of these folks. It's not just "American IT workers", though, this phenomenon knows no nationality bounds.
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Yes, you should have a career strategy. And it should be a good one.
But seriously, we need to
A, do our jobs
B, keep our skills up to date
C, manage this career, guessing properly about where things are going next and figuring out how to chase it without letting down the side on A and B.
And woe betide you if you dare add recreation and / or family to this.
And *everyone* needs to do this. I think most are going to do an average job on this.
And how do you know? The guys that get to choose what the twists and
Re:Not to worry (Score:5, Interesting)
Dear silly grad. your skills in C# are worthless.
Want to make really good money? Learn how to manage an AS400 completely. There are incredibly few that can and there are a LARGE number of companies still using them. So you can demand $65.00 an hour.
Hell my company pays a guy $160 an hour to come in for 10 hours a week to work on our systems. HE WORKS 10 HOURS A WEEK and takes home $1600.
Those of you going into CS are morons, Supporting old tech that companies will not upgrade is where the real money is at.
Re: Not to worry (Score:3)
Funny but my skills in C# are far more valuable than my COBOL skills thanks to all the mainframe COBOL work being outsourced to India because people like me were too expensive.