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Education GNU is Not Unix Graphics Open Source Linux Technology

Ask Slashdot: Switching To a GNU/Linux Distribution For a Webdesign School 233

spadadot writes: I manage a rapidly growing webdesign school in France with 90 computers for our students, dispatched across several locations. By the end on the year it will amount to 200. Currently, they all run Windows 8 but we would love to switch to a GNU/Linux distribution (free software, easier to deploy/maintain and less licensing costs). The only thing preventing us is Adobe Photoshop which is only needed for a small amount of work. The curriculum is highly focused on coding skills (HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP/MySQL) but we still need to teach our students how to extract images from a PSD template. The industry format for graphic designs is PSD so The Gimp (XCF) is not really an option. Running a Windows VM on every workstation would be hard to setup (we redeploy all our PCs every 3 months) and just as costly as the current setup. Every classroom has at least 20Mbit/s — 1Mbit/s ADSL connection so maybe setting up a centralized virtualization server would work? How many Windows/Photoshop licenses would we need then? Anything else Slashdot would recommend?
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Ask Slashdot: Switching To a GNU/Linux Distribution For a Webdesign School

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  • by FranTaylor ( 164577 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @07:29PM (#50289707)

    Get mostly linux machines for the mainstream work, and get a few windows systems for the jobs that really need windows. People will have to learn the nuts and bolts of data transfer between the systems, but that is actually a pretty useful professional skill.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 10, 2015 @08:21PM (#50290113)

      Nothing needs windoze in webdesign. Also gfx design is covered with Krita, Inkscape, Gimp and Blender. The only department where Linux is tailing is desktop MMO games. In every other areas you're only held back by your ignorant self.

      • Parent should maybe be modded up. I mean, if Trump can get away with insulting an entire gender, pointing out that someone who claims to know what he's doing appears instead to be full of shit should be acceptable on slashdot.

        As a possibly useful point of information: GIMP seems to handle .psd files perfectly well. I just saved a triple layer .xcf that used a mask and partial opacity as a .psd and then imported it back into GIMP with no discernible damage. YMMV of course. But page templates should not be using esoteric features. ( BTW, the .psd was 134% the size of the .xcf--- but Adobe never did understand the value of efficient data structures. Students who sometimes have to work with low capacity thumb drives do, though.)

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          As a possibly useful point of information: GIMP seems to handle a limited selection of .psd files perfectly well.

          FTFY.

          Gimp can only handle .psd files that use the sRGB colorspace with 8-bit planes. It fucking shits itself with any other colorspace or higher bit depths. I haven't tried it but I hear that Krita (which originated from Gimp) can handle other colorspaces and higher bit depths so it may handle a larger selection of .psd files.

          • Good to know. I've looked briefly at Krita but found no reason to learn its ways as 99% of what I want to do I can do in GIMP. (The other 1% is probably a bunch of bad ideas anyway.)

            WRT using image files as page templates in web development (the original context) would there ever be a need for the .pdf features that would not import well into GIMP?

            A good template needs to be as simple as possible, so it can be used by older software that is still in production and is future proofed--- will not need to be

          • So? It's about learning to draw not steer through the menu of a GUI on an expensive program that's going to have a different GUI in a year or two anyway. It's not for glossy magazine images - the niche gold plated features do not matter when you want a small image that will download quickly.
          • ... Krita (which originated from Gimp) ...

            I really doubt that this is true (of course, I may be wrong). Krita is a KDE application (so QT-based) and it has a very different focus and approach. I can't imagine that the two projects share much code, if any.

        • but Adobe never did understand the value of efficient data structures.

          They developed the PDF standard, which was designed from the ground up to be transferred in a stream and rendered quickly. Don't hate the tech just because they're a proprietary company.

          • Yes. Thank you for reminding me that PDF was their baby, and they had to nurse it through some hard times before it became accepted as the better way to transmit and archive documents.

            Of course they were under tremendous pressure between Microsoft and Netscape and that gawdawefull browser war. They used the PDF to carve out a space for themselves. Still, they released it as a public standard, and it has held up over the years.

            I just wish they had taken the same high road with image files. But I guess if t

        • by gl4ss ( 559668 )

          it doesn't handle psd files well enough, unfortunately.

          nobody cares if gimp loads psd files created with gimp if the layout design file received from the designer refuses to open or opens in a wrong way and is a total pain to take out assets to use on the page. you seem to think that psd is a format set in stone when it isn't, so supporting it is tricky.

          however the question is why the OP wants to switch to linux when he wants to run windows software on every PC? you can run the gimp, inkscape etc on window

          • I don't have a dog in this fight, since I'm quite satisfied with the OS I've got and I don't much care what anyone else does.

            But as I understand it, Win8 is a messed up dog and there seems to be consensus agreement that anyone running it NEEDS to upgrade to Win10. But those using Win7 can stay with it if they want. It won't bite them in the butt like Win8 will.

            The thing about "upgrading" to Win10 is that it is an entirely different licensing scheme similar to paying annual rental fees. Which mount up if y

          • it doesn't handle psd files well enough, unfortunately.

            If the students are creating original content instead of playing with an image that has been through photoshop it is not going to matter.

      • by FranTaylor ( 164577 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @10:56PM (#50290915)

        Nothing needs windoze in webdesign.

        maybe not for design, but you have to have at least one windows system for testing so you can see what your web app is gonna look like on it

        • For teaching purposes you only have to mention that it's a good idea to have at least one windows system for testing so you can see what your web app is gonna look like on it.
          • by smchris ( 464899 )

            Yes, or at least a Windows license running in kvm so they can experience how things render differently on various browsers. Thats how I used to set my wife up.

            As for Photoshop, maybe have one Windows machine so the kids can put it on their resume because thats really what he is probably thinking about as a classroom?

    • Get mostly linux machines for the mainstream work, and get a few windows systems for the jobs that really need windows.

      vnc seems to work acceptably to allow a unix machine to control a process running on a Windows XP machine. As does rdesktop I believe. I imagine that one or the other or something similar will work with a more modern (i.e. probably even more obtuse) Windows version. Files can be transferred with Samba.

      That would be a pain to set up and to make cleanly accessible to an untrained user who

  • Windows VMs (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pcolaman ( 1208838 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @07:36PM (#50289755)

    Why exactly would running Windows VMs be so difficult? In actuality it would be quite a bit easier, if all of the workstations are running the same configuration. You setup the Windows VM as needed and then deploy it out to each machine. Or heck, you get the students to do the work for you. I've found knowing how to find your way around Virtual Box to be a very useful skill as a developer and this is something the students should really learn about. It's so easy to do work on a variety of different projects with vastly different system requirements by using VMs. I do work on VMs ranging from Windows 7 to Windows Server 2012 and almost everything between at work with very little difficulty in setting up the VMs (both with VirtualBox and RDC in Windows to a cloud based VM). A lot of it boils down to knowing how to manage and deploy your VMs, or hiring a company to help if this is not your expertise.

    • Re:Windows VMs (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 10, 2015 @07:58PM (#50289947)

      Licensing, for one. They'd need a license for each VM, which kind of defeats the purpose of switching to Linux for the sake of lower costs.

    • It's free and you don't need to install on each system. Just have windows server in a VM that is acting as a app server over RDP.

      • You would also need a different server license for each old version of IE to emulate

      • by dbIII ( 701233 )
        That gets very expensive if done legally with current MS Server software. There are third party programs that will let you use Win7 quite legally - but either way, it's a waste of time and money when a knoppix CD provides the tools needed to teach web design and you can legally hand them out in class.
    • well, god save us from developers that cannot figure out virtualbox at first go.

      • by blang ( 450736 )

        God save us from developers that can't do basic math. Cost of Windows on VM !=0.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by jedidiah ( 1196 )

          If you are replacing Windows on the bare metal, you already have a Windows license.

          The cost of a Windows license you already have is $0.

          • Re:Windows VMs (Score:4, Informative)

            by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Tuesday August 11, 2015 @04:18AM (#50291803) Journal
            Depends on the license terms. Some of the cheap OEM licenses are only applicable when running bare metal on a particular machine. If you want to run them in a VM, then you may need a different license. If you get audited and are not in compliance then you can be hit with a very large fine, or you can go to court and try to get that clause in the EULA invalidated (good luck doing this for less than the cost of the fine). If you're going to run proprietary software as part of your business, then make sure that you factor in compliance audits and lawyer time reading the EULAs into your TCO calculations.
    • Why set up Windows VM at all? It seems less wasteful to run one Windows OS for all students, well you would need one per site (Windows Server with RDS). One ûber-PC such as with 24 Haswell cores and 128GB RAM and a PCIe SSD (Intel 750 400GB or 1.2TB is cheap) would likely serve about 20 users or more very well. The Windows OS may run either bare metal or on a VM, that actually becomes an unimportant (or less important) technical detail.

      Would be interesting if you get a discount on CAL and RDS licenses

      • The software licencing is going to cost as much or more than that nice hardware unless you can get some sort of discount on CAL and RDS licenses.
        The 1999 solution for the requirements above is a bunch of desktops with linux on them and it's far more compelling, far more capable with an even larger price difference now.

        Remember folks - it's teaching not training. If it's in a workplace that already has a pile of people using photoshop in production and you have somebody already taught to draw that's one th
    • Why exactly would running Windows VMs be so difficult?

      Because you have to keep track of all the licences and make sure they are paid for. Why bother when the entire point is to teach people to do things that can be done without the trouble and without encouraging software piracy (ok then - copyright infringement)?

  • It's been a lot of years since I've dealt with either Photo Shop or GIMP, but I'm pretty sure it used to (at least open) PSD files with no problems.

    Am I remembering wrong, or is this no longer the case?

    Wanting to teach people Photo Shop is fine, but if it's just about PSD compatibility, I'm not sure that makes sense.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I have opened a heck of a lot of psd files in GIMP, and saved to that format as well. Easy enough to find out - try it on Windows GIMP if you need to make sure. If you're just extracting images I would think GIMP would work perfectly. I still use GIMP as my main heavy photo editor.

  • Are you sure it's easier to deploy and maintain linux? Do you have someone who can maintain a linux installation of that size? Not a hobbyist.... for God's sake, don't trust this to a hobbyist. Do you have an actual professional? They might be a bit scarcer than Windows IT guys... and that's the first thing I would check: that you have someone who can reliably maintain this....someone certified, not certifiable. Also, ask legitimate IT guys in your area about your specifics. It may or may not be the way to

    • In my experience: Linux is much cheaper to own than Windows.

      • Yes, but when you get into installations like this, the upfront licensing costs are only part of the equation.... and that's why I think he should get a consultant to look over his specific situation.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @08:40PM (#50290227)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • "I've seen some mighty capable hobbyists and some downright retarded experts."

        Yes, but which are you more likely to see: an expert who can't do his job or a hobbyist who can't do the job of an expert? For every capable hobbyist out there, there are 20 out there who think they could handle a project like this because they installed Ubuntu on their laptop and set up an FTP server for their friends to share things. They networked to their sister's computer, so they have networking down pat too... Now, do you h

        • by dbIII ( 701233 )

          there are 20 out there who think they could handle a project like this because they installed Ubuntu on their laptop and set up an FTP server for their friends to share things

          And they are probably correct. The requirements are not hard here.

      • A linux hobbyist will probably be able to get the job done, just be prepared for it to take a little longer.

        Maybe, maybe not (on the longer part). A lot of the Windows "experts" that I've known didn't have the thinking skills of a typical Linux hobbyist, not to mention the determination and drive. A self-taught Linux expert can solve problems and get things done.

    • Do you have someone who can maintain a linux installation of that size?

      FFS I could do it with a pile of knoppix CDROMS. In the year 2000 or any time later. Give it a couple of weekends and you could too if you can't already.
      It's about providing a suite of applications, a machine to run them on, and somewhere to save them. Something like knoppix is ideal for that because they can take it home and run it on other stuff without changing the base OS.

  • WINE for Photosohp (Score:5, Informative)

    by Stealth Dave ( 189726 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @08:08PM (#50290025) Homepage

    Not sure why this hasn't been mentioned yet, but depending on what version you want to run, Photoshop runs quite well on Linux under WINE [winehq.org] depending on what version you need to use, including CS6 and Creative Cloud versions. If you require support, Code Weavers [codeweavers.com] packages a popular and easy-to-use version of WINE with varying levels of technical support available for purchase. (No affiliation with Code Weavers, just a happy customer.)

    If you want to get fancy (i.e. complicated), you can probably set up some sort of application server that will allow you to limit the number of Photoshop licenses you need to purchase, but that's a bit out of scope for a simple Slashdot comment. :)

    - Dave

  • by Dracos ( 107777 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @08:18PM (#50290091)

    Slicing PSDs is crude, antiquated (even though most shops still do it), and reinforces the fallacy that web design begins in Photoshop.

    Modernize your curriculum to teach progressive enhancement of wireframe layouts in the browser. At some point you teach about creating the individual image assets for what they are (backgrounds, icons, etc) rather than treating a PSD as a giant slab of source material. For this, you can use GIMP, Inkscape, or anything else Free.

    You are perpetuating Adobe's dominance by furthering a bad workflow that benefits them. Your course isn't about Photoshop, that shouldn't be the keystone of it.

    Slicing PSDs is the equivalent of beginning a construction project from a child's crayon drawing of the not-yet-existing building.

    • by snadrus ( 930168 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @11:16PM (#50290993) Homepage Journal

      Agreed. Good designers know CSS and at-least try to understand the technologies they're asking to be used.
          - Microsoft & Linux-based small corps I've seen.

      If the designers aren't supporting the company's end-product in an effective way, the company should be critical of the designers. And you can't be effective at guiding tech creators if you don't understand the tech.

      We no-longer are painting banners and putting them online as websites. We now have transitions to consider, varying screen sizes (not just 3, or just X, but 100s).

      Copy-pasting images is worthless. If you really want to teach it, make them do it from JPG, but it'll look like crap in Retina no-matter what. Honestly trash the copy-paste and teach a little Inkscape hacking on SVGs.

    • by Art3x ( 973401 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @11:51PM (#50291131)

      Slicing PSDs is crude, antiquated (even though most shops still do it), and reinforces the fallacy that web design begins in Photoshop.

      Modernize your curriculum to teach progressive enhancement of wireframe layouts in the browser. At some point you teach about creating the individual image assets for what they are (backgrounds, icons, etc) rather than treating a PSD as a giant slab of source material. For this, you can use GIMP, Inkscape, or anything else Free.

      You are perpetuating Adobe's dominance by furthering a bad workflow that benefits them. Your course isn't about Photoshop, that shouldn't be the keystone of it.

      Slicing PSDs is the equivalent of beginning a construction project from a child's crayon drawing of the not-yet-existing building.

      I agree, and this is coming from someone who came into web programming from graphic design. I first learned Photoshop. I soon abandoned it once I got a job in web programming.

      It is better to write HTML in a text editor. Then add CSS. If you must, add images from Photoshop or whatever. But I hardly ever even do that anymore. Granted, it's harder to learn to code raw HTML in a text editor. But I would rather you start with Dreamweaver or some WYSIWYG editor than making a web page in Photoshop, slicing it up, and converting it into a web page.

      Photoshop is pixel-based. The web is elastic. Photoshop encourages you to make image-heavy, user-unfriendly, obnoxious brochures --- instead of lean, useful, get-out-of-the-way web pages.

  • Your doing it wrong (Score:4, Informative)

    by tomxor ( 2379126 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @08:20PM (#50290101)

    but we still need to teach our students how to extract images from a PSD template. The industry format for graphic designs is PSD so The Gimp (XCF) is not really an option

    Really? Sure i'd chose photoshop over gimp, but i'd choose nether for web design... manipulating rasters for anything more than tweaking images should not be part of modern web design, slicing up images is 1990, don't teach this, design with grid systems, use pen and paper or a wireframing tool, teach typography, the rest is code.

  • Serious question since I've not touched GIMP in years (or any other Linux graphics utilities), but one of the primary reasons why I've stuck with Windows/Photoshop is simply for color management. Does GIMP+Linux support proper color management, ICC profiles, 10/12-bit displays, 16/32-bit per channel within images, CMYK color, Adobe RGB color space, and ProPhoto RGB color space? These are all tools used in various aspects of professional graphics design. Also, designers love to hand me AI files instead of PS

  • Any Distro and VIM, that's all you need :-). I'm a web developer and I write LARGE web systems, in excess of a couple hundred thousand lines of code, you don't need anything else.
  • by gringer ( 252588 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @11:51PM (#50291129)

    From experience (i.e. failure) with switching people over, you get the best results if you introduce people to the free software first then change the operating system. Use Inkscape, Krita, GIMP, or Scribus on Windows, rather than switching two things at once.

  • Walk into any coding academy in NYC or SF and you'll see a line-up of Apple Macbooks. Strange that most noob coders use PCs in France.
  • by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Tuesday August 11, 2015 @03:01AM (#50291653)

    I'm a seasoned pro webdev and havent touched Windows or PS in years. Gimp does most of the gfx work just fine, especially with the modern flatty designs. As does Inkscape for the vector work.

    I do use a mac though - less hassle with the gui and some neat tools unavailable on Linux (SourceTree, Kaleidoscope, Transmit, etc.) but those are tools you definitely don't need for learning.

    My advice:
    Move to Ubuntu LTS right now and set up one Mac Mini in every classroom if you must teach your students PS filters and the Adobe Suite. Although I wouldn't. ... Train your students on Atom or Brackets and learn and teach Grunt, Gulp or both and build a webdev pipeline with those. Build a pipeline that your students can take with them on their career. Way more worth than learning Adobe crap.

    The one thing desperately missing on Linux is a FOSS Git gui that doesn't suck. You'll have to get a bundle licence for SmartGit - it's Java, but it's OK. As a full blow IDE Netbeans and the Netbeans Chrome extension + perhaps FF WebDev Edition are are the tools of the trade. All FOSS, all perfectly at home on Ubuntu.

    For testing set up VBox on every PC and pull the official Windows Browser Webdev Testing VMs. They only run an hour before needing a virtual restart, but they're perfect for Testing IE and Spartan.

    What ever you do, spare yourself and you Students the hassle with remote desktop.

    Good luck with your business.

  • by markdavis ( 642305 ) on Tuesday August 11, 2015 @03:12AM (#50291691)

    >"The industry format for graphic designs is PSD so The Gimp (XCF) is not really an option."

    That has to be the stupidest statement I have read in a week. Who cares what the "industry format" is for "graphic design"? That has nothing to do with a web coding school. And GIMP opens PSD files just fine. Did you even TRY this before posting?

    There are cases where it is difficult to replace an MS-Windows environment. Web development is certainly not one of them.

    • by fnj ( 64210 )

      That has to be the stupidest statement I have read in a week. Who cares what the "industry format" is for "graphic design"? That has nothing to do with a web coding school. And GIMP opens PSD files just fine. Did you even TRY this before posting?

      Do yourself a favor and cool off. Are you sure GIMP will open and properly deal with all PSD files made by all Photoshops, no matter what options and features? And are you sure that GIMP will create PSD files with all desired options and features, and that all Photo

  • by msobkow ( 48369 ) on Tuesday August 11, 2015 @03:44AM (#50291761) Homepage Journal

    Let the graphics design industry use what it wishes. They can export to web formats, which is what you need.

    I spent over thirty years in the computer industry, working on many projects with user interface and graphical elements, and not once did the graphics designers deliver what we needed in Photoshop-specific formats.

  • I have never encountered any bug using my old version of photoshop with wine. The main issue is to configure the desktop (gnome in my case) to not hijack the alt key.
  • It seems that designers use macs most of the time. They used them even before Apple was considered cool and are the prime target for the Mac pro.
    So I think that for students, it should be the platform of choice rather than Windows or Linux. So don't be so cheap and buy at least a few iMacs as they may encounter them when they start working. The coding and other parts that don't need Photoshop can be done on Linux.

  • If Photoshop skills are only a small part of the class, Amazon/Microsoft/Google cloud compute instances with Adobe creative suite and remote desktop could be the easiest/cheapest way to go. You just need a pool of licenses to accommodate simultaneous logins and all the instances can be torn down except when that specific part of the class is in session.

  • Most of the world uses Windows, unless they use Mac. Also many employers use Adobe. It would be of benefit to NOT eliminate Windows and Mac entirely. Maintain a class size lab of these different platforms, while switching everything else to Linux and Linux based software.

  • by morgauxo ( 974071 ) on Tuesday August 11, 2015 @12:37PM (#50294831)

    Ubuntu would be my answer for pretty much any desktop use including this.

    No, I'm not really a fan of Ubuntu. No, Unity is not necessarily the best interface. No, I don't think going their own way with Mir is a good idea.

    But...

    Ubuntu has the most people out there already doing this kind of thing. That means the most liklihood things will 'just work' and the most online community support when it doesn't. Since you have a whole lab to support and probably other things to do with your time you will likely apreciate taking the path of least resistance.

    So.. I wouldn't pick the 'best' distro, I'd pick the most popular one. Currently that's Ubuntu. It sucks.. because this kind of thinking is what causes incumbant favorites to remain at the top even when they cease to deserve it. But... that's reality.

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