Chicago Mayor Calls For National Computer Coding Requirement In Schools (thehill.com) 217
theodp writes: On Thursday, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel called on the federal government to make computer coding classes a requirement of high-school graduation (video). Back in December 2013, Emanuel — who previously served as President Obama's chief of staff — joined then-Chicago Public Schools CEO Barbara Byrd-Bennett to announce a comprehensive K-12 computer science program for CPS students, including a partnership with then-nascent Code.org. "[Y]ou need this skill Make it a high-school graduation requirement," Emanuel said. "They need to know this stuff. In the way that I can get by kind of being OK by it, they can't.
Grrr (Score:4, Insightful)
What's really needed are courses in things like "How not to fall into the debt trap" and "Why being educated is actually worth some effort so you don't end up on welfare", etc.
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My high school had a Home Economics class that did, in fact, teach some basic economics. It wasn't how to bake a loaf of bread or whatever like a lot of other schools.
We learned things like:
1. Compound Interest and how it relates to investment for retirement.
2. How much a 30 year mortgage really costs.
3. How to budget.
4. How to eat healthily on $5 a day.
5. How insurance works.
I've rarely come across other people that had this kind of a class in their high school. It's weird to me that people are graduating
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My Sr year in high school had a class for those of us not college bound. Instead of taking Calc/Trig in Sr year the alternative was Business Math. It was a combo of Typing, Computer Lab, Accounting and Home Economics. We had to keep a credit card, checking account and savings account in balance the first semester. Every Friday we got a randomized sheet with a pay check and weekly bills. We had to buy insurance, take out car loans and take out a Mortgage. One part of the midterm test was to fill out a 1040E
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As the risk of sounding like Captain Obvious, I'll bite:
"How not to fall into the debt trap", a few tips from a formerly heavily-indebted loser:
- Things can and will go wrong. It's better to prepared than to borrow money for an emergency.
- Never spend more than what you can earn.
- Pay all of your debts before you borrow again.
- A breather today is a greater burden tomorrow. Don't make it a permanent issue.
- Never pay a debt with another debt.
- Never lose your job while indebted.
- Borrow only to pay for vari
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What's really needed are courses in things like "How not to fall into the debt trap"
If they got serious about teaching it properly that would be a hugely beneficial class. No way they'd be allowed to do it right though.
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I'm with Jeff Atwood on this (Score:5, Insightful)
It's one things to say that all schools would have to require it as an elective (which means they have to deal w/ trying to find qualified teachers, etc).
But requiring all students to learn it? Hell no. Jeff is right [slashdot.org], it's just another skill. Sure, it's great that I rebuilt a lawn mower engine back in high school ... but we didn't even spend a full semester on that.
Every time some new 'requirement' comes along, something else is going to need to get bumped -- how many schools still have a shop class, or home ec? I'd much rather see home economics be a requirement again, and bring in some lessons on compound interest, savings, and why gambling and money lenders suck, rather than just cooking & sewing. (and if it were all about saving money, then shop class should count as 'home ec', too).
If you want more people to take programming classes ... reclassify it as a foreign language. Then kids could decide to take it instead of French or Spanish, without it meaning that they need yet another class to graduate.
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There should be some sort of "life skills" class that incorporates part of home economics and other skills. Some of the skills covered by that class should involve computers (basic computer security, a la "don't give your password to anyone") but financial matters, basic cooking and sewing, how to write a formal letter/email, how to change a flat tire, things like that should IMO also be covered.
In fact, don't just offer one such class at or near the end of the students' education. Teach appropriate life sk
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My high school offered it as an elective and my brother convinced me to take it my sophomore year (I was already interested in engineering, just wasn't sure what field). Out of the entire nearly 2000 students there was ONE class (both CS 1 and CS 2 combined) with less than 50 people taking it over the course of 3 years. There were about 8 of us that were actually any good, out of them I believe 3 (including myself) turned it into a career. The rest pretty much cheated off us or we had to help them throug
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I'd much rather see home economics be a requirement again, and bring in some lessons on compound interest, savings, and why gambling and money lenders suck
Actually, this should be taught in a math class. Most states require three years of high-school mathematics for graduation -- generally including at least Algebra I, Geometry, and an elective (which is often encouraged to be a second year of Algebra).
What POSSIBLE excuse is there for any person to graduate high school in this country without understanding the BASIC MATH needed to survive in this world?? -- that includes understanding interest and its relationship to investments, understanding and being a
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Sounds like bullshit to me ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's be perfectly clear here: If you get a highschool diploma, and stop your education ... you will not be programming computers.
If you think you're going to have a bunch of kids coming out of highschool who are the programming workforce of the future ... you have decided to set your kids future up so that they will be the low-paid programmers who only have a highschool diploma.
Somehow we've let a bunch of rich people who work in technology to convince the world that everybody needs to know how to program
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Let's be perfectly clear here: If you get a highschool diploma, and stop your education ... you will not be programming computers.
If you don't have a college degree, you probably won't get a job at all. Many jobs that previously required a high school diploma noq require a college degree. Never mind that the actual work may not have changed.
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Actually that's not true at all. Most job postings today require a college degree OR experience. Fuck college degrees. Acquire killer skills and you'll be just fine.
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I imagine it probably has a lot to do with the market and niche you are in and the supply and demand of jobs in that specific market. When there is a severe shortage of people to fill roles, many employers are willing to lower education requirements and focus on what someone can actually deliver.
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Yes. Every time I have a chance to talk to recruiters in the tech industry I always ask them how important education is. They always tell me that experience is way more important.
That said, there are still some large employers that require specific degrees but for the most part, if you have the experience, it doesn't matter if you only have a GED.
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Yes, especially large healthcare organizations. They seem to be stuck on the whole degree thing AND also paying much lower than average. Which is why they often end up with sub-par employees on board.
Bottom line, hone your skills, hold your ground and go for the best offers you can get.
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If you think you're going to have a bunch of kids coming out of highschool who are the programming workforce of the future ...
I think it is pretty clear from his comments about having to have his kids turn on the TV for him even after him having the basics, that he's not trying to create a high-school graduate programming workforce. It's obvious that he is smarter than that and knows, like we do, that it won't happen.
It seems like he's trying to create a baseline understanding of what a computer is and the things they do, by forcing everyone to know how to program something on one. That's not a bad idea, but it isn't "programmin
In other news... (Score:2)
Bored /. editors who weren't able to find another "more women in coding" story, slaps up another "more programming in education" story.
Tomorrow's scope: VW engineers screwed the pooch (again).
Heaping Piles of Bullshit (Score:3)
So the Chicago school districts which are grossly underfunded piles of crap are going to magically extract the funding for a comp sci program from a laughing pony's asshole? All so they can fall into debt trap anyway because they can't afford college, and a company isn't going to hire a high school graduate whose only coding experience is babies first intro to Python? 100% bullshit.
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>> grossly underfunded piles of crap
I wouldn't say "grossly underfunded" - they currently pay about $15K/year per student. For that kind of money, you'd think you could get 1 teacher (making $50K or so) for every 5 students.
http://www.isbe.net/finance/ve... [isbe.net]
>> magically extract the funding for a comp sci program
Oh, but politicians in Chicago ARE good at that. In fact, very little of the spend mentioned above goes to student education. If the mayor kicked off a "CompSci Bootcamp" or a similar i
Timed to distract from graduation rate scandal? (Score:2)
A week ago news broke that Chicago was padding its graduation rates. (They're really around 66% - yikes.)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/... [chicagotribune.com]
Then there's the story from TODAY about Chicago's school chief agreeing to plead guilty to bribery:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/... [chicagotribune.com]
To me, this "code for all" announcement mainly seems timed to distract from the fact that Chicago's public schools are horribly ineffective dumps run by hacks.
Prisons and coding (Score:2)
Not even prisoners who take classes are forced to learn how to code. WTF is wrong with these bureaucrats? Some kids want to be artists, musicians, architects or doctors. How does forcing them to learn programming help anyone at all, other than ballooning the school's budgets and wasting more money?
Priorities, Mr. Mayor? (Score:2)
Perhaps Hizzoner should make sure students are learning reading, writing, and arithmetic (and maybe some history and science too) in the Chicgao Public Schools before becoming concerned with national requirements for computer coding?
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Or maybe even worry about the massive crime problem his city has and let the school board worry about education standards?
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But ... but ... if the criminals had all learned to code there'd be no crime, and everybody would have jobs!! It's true, I saw it on the internet!
Why do you hate America?
What students "need" (Score:2)
"Make it a high-school graduation requirement," Emanuel said. "They need to know this stuff."
I recall a moment in college when I was standing in the ruins of classic Rome with a friend of mine, reading to him a sign in one of the structures indicating where Julius Caesar was stabbed, and having him ask me, "Who's Julius Caesar?" Smart guy, graduated from college in three years, and has been a middle school science teacher ever since.
A central problem with our K-12 educational system has been too many coo
Not a programmer, but I use coding a lot at work (Score:2)
I'm not a professional programmer - OMG, if I was, I'd shudder to think what would happen - but I did programming back as school in the 80's and 90's and have kept it up as a hobby ever since. I'm one of those engineers who went into product management and I've found coding terrifically helpful as a tool at work, just like presentation skills, personal skills, negortation skills etc. I've used it to create demo content for conferences (ActionScript) (got an award for that one), analyze customer requests via
the Chicago way (Score:2)
Because I'm sure they have the students best interest in mind [chicagotribune.com]
but I have my own obvious bias [iterudio.com]
Kids do not need to learn how to code. (Score:2)
There are so many better choices (Score:2)
Honestly, seeing what I'm seeing as a "veteran" with 20+ years of experience, I feel this is probably the last gasp for average developers and IT people to command a good salary. Offshoring, visa programs, coder bootcamps and yes, these "everyone must learn to code" programs are going to mean a flooded market. This, along with most development centering around locked-down walled garden environments like phone apps, will reduce salaries over time because the _average_ skill level required to get something _w
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No. (Score:2)
Just "No."
We need to stop pretending that our addiction to smell phones and PCs is healthy, and that the rudimentary skills taught in a high school are going to produce "the next big app" or even a job.
Stupid, stupid, stupid (Score:2)
Stupid for two specific reasons:
1) Stop requiring shit at the federal level. Education decisions should be made at the local and state level. You can require whatever you want in Chicago, but leave the rest of us alone. The federal government has a hard enough time doing the job that it is mandated to do in the Constitution.
2) Not everyone needs to know how to code. It's a waste of time. Not everyone needs to take shop class. Not everyone needs to take home economics.
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Why?
Because there aren't billionaire plumbers with the ear of government who are loudly saying kids must learn to run pipe for the economy to succeed.
This is "which rich people are driving this agenda?". The tech billionaires all want to be handed a large, cheap labor pool ... and as a result are framing the
Dumbest idea ever (Score:2)
I, for one, call for theromodynamics education ... (Score:2)
I mean we want to make the best generation better drivers, don't we? T
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General IT (Score:2)
A more general IT course would be better as a requirement. It could cover the relationship between clients and servers/clouds, what an OS is and isn't, normalization and data relationships (one-to-many, many-to-many, etc.), pro's and con's of different kinds of data keys/id's, encryption techniques, etc.
They will likely need to know a bit about such in the work-place even if they are not a coder. Coding is only one aspect of IT.
It's better 100% of students are slightly less naive about general IT which at l
Hey Rahm... (Score:2)
Re: In three years ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Essentially, this would trash the computer science/coding curriculum at most schools. Whereas now the classes consist of motivated students who want to learn, this would cram in all the dullards who don't want to be in the class. Thus it would suck the resources away from the students who want to learn.
Thank goodness he's just a mayor and can't rham his idea through.
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Essentially, this would trash the computer science/coding curriculum at most schools. Whereas now the classes consist of motivated students who want to learn, this would cram in all the dullards who don't want to be in the class. Thus it would suck the resources away from the students who want to learn.
Bingo. Or as I like to say, Not this shit again." This is another one of those "everybody needs to learn to code!" ideas that are pure bullshit.
Everyone does not need to learn to code. Period. They might benefit from learning the ideas behind programming, but that's not at all the same thing as "learning to code".
Re: In three years ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone does not need to learn to code. Period.
A symbolic logic class would be a good idea for all programmers. It helps you learn how do do your Boolean algebra when you're developing code but it also teaches you the difference between "everyone does not need to..." and "not everyone needs to..." ;)
Re: In three years ... (Score:5, Insightful)
A symbolic logic class would be a good idea for all programmers.
A formal logic class (whether heavy on symbols or not) would be a good idea for everyone.
We can all debate how some people just have an "aptitude" for coding and people who don't, and people who just happen to have a certain kind of "intellect" and others who don't. Getting to a high skill level in programming is obviously just not a reasonable goal for most people, nor should it be.
But we could all benefit from being able to think through a problem using logic. Various tests that have been done with the general population tend to show that most people are abysmal at evaluating formal logical arguments.
We used to teach that sort of reasoning in various ways. Geometry classes used to do more formal proofs. Classical languages (especially Latin) were taught in an ahistorical way that turns them into a weird sort of logic exercise in assembling and deducing the meaning of a long convoluted sentence. (I don't think that's a good method for learning actual Latin, but it worked as a logic exercise.)
We used to test it too -- IQ tests had a big portion of it, and the GRE had a whole "analytical" section devoted to logic problems. The SAT used to have "quantitative comparisons" in the math section that required the evaluation and comparison of things in an abstract way, rather than following a simple formula/algorithm to get a precise answer. The verbal section used to have analogies, and one component to understanding how they work is thinking in terms of logic: "If A, then B..." -- how does that relate to a similar relationship "if C, then...."
Etc.
We've gradually moved training and tests in logic out of our school curricula and replaced them with rote learning and step-by-step algorithms. There's a lot of talk in educational reform about "thinking on a higher level," but the reality is that one fundamental skill toward "thinking on a higher level" is being trained in HOW TO THINK.
That's logic. Whether we're going to use a formal logic class or geometry proofs or well-designed coding exercises doesn't really matter. The fact is that most people can get better at thinking logically... if they had any training in it. But we assume that it's a skill that people should just "pick up" -- except most people simply don't. (And this has serious repercussions in terms of people's abilities to evaluate public policy arguments, to be taken in by politicians' or religious wackos' nonsense... etc., etc.)
I personally don't think a required coding course is the answer. But this is part of a bigger problem, and it's not getting better.
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A symbolic logic class would be a good idea for all programmers.
A formal logic class (whether heavy on symbols or not) would be a good idea for everyone.
Yes, formal logic class may be a more accurate description of what they need to take.
I suspect, however, that for all people there exists a subset of people for whom a formal logic class would provide no benefit. And for that reason, it would not be a good idea for absolutely everyone to take it. Many, maybe even most, of the people could benefit to a certain extent. But probably not everyone. ;)
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A formal logic class (whether heavy on symbols or not) would be a good idea for everyone.
Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that people trained in "formal logic" actually make better real life decisions?
Formal logic is not even particularly useful for logic design. The software tools do it for you. I haven't written out a Karnaugh map in 20 years.
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Everyone does not need to learn to code. Period. They might benefit from learning the ideas behind programming, but that's not at all the same thing as "learning to code".
OTOH, everyone ought to learn how to talk to programmers. This is your moment. Don't throw it away.
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Reported by: Joe User
Description: Got an error.
Steps to reproduce: blank
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I've gotten "can't run program" submitted from the feedback form inside the program.
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Pretty spot on. I keep hearing this parroted over and over again and it seems to gain steam more from people that don't understand the engineering involved in proper programming. The best example I have heard is cars are ubiquitous in our society but does that mean everyone needs to learn how to work on them? I can drive a car, extremely well even, without having hardly any clue how it actually operates. Even if we teach "baseline" programming skills, so? What is the end game?
I didn't learn enough in h
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You said: "Bottom line, dumbass talking heads and politicians need to shut up about things they don't understand."
You do, of course, realize, this would render politicians almost continuously silent.
Please tell me more about this plan. I would be happy to support it.
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Everyone needs to know how to operate a computer. That does not mean they need to know how to code.
That's like saying that literacy requires everyone to know how to write novels or encyclopedias.
The thing is? It seems easier to get normal computer literacy today for kids than it ever was for kids to become reading literate. Kids with devices these days figure this stuff out on their own.
We probably could use more coders, but not *everyone*. Just add more money for more seats for quality CS programs for
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of all the things that didn't happen, i suspect this happened least of all. did he also try using the cd-drive as a cup holder, or press the 'any key'?
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While I don't think it is *necessary* to learn to code, I think it can only help.
Then again, if you are talking about things that are *necessary* to learn, we could probably cut out everything except reading and arithmetic.
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While I don't think it is *necessary* to learn to code, I think it can only help.
I agree.
So would learning general First Aid.
So would how to balance a checkbook or bank account.
So would some basic carpentry skills or automotive mechanics.
So would familiarization with electrical theory.
So would learning some basic cooking skills or "smart" shopping skills.
There are a limitless number of things that would help, but learning everything, even a little bit about everything, would probably not be practical. I agree, learning some of the concepts related to coding would be a good thing, but th
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Everyone does not need to learn to code. Period.
Period, period. Or do they?
Everyone doesn't need to learn anything, if we as a culture are satisfied with people not knowing things. Most people only really need to know to read, and maybe some basic arithmetic. And, frankly, there are people who get by their whole lives without it, even in the developed world.
But teaching people that much only takes a couple of years, three, tops. We don't stop there. We teach our students art, and literature, and history, and wood shop, and music, and chemistry, and
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I'd sure hate to be in a programming class where most of the students were only there because Rahm Emmanuel forced them to be.
I went back to community college to learn computer programming after the Dot Com Bust. Many students in the computer and networking classes were there because computers was the money-major of the day. One of my instructors tried to get a 75-year-old Vietnamese couple to reconsider their major, as no company would ever hire them. When health care became the new money-major of the day, the computer and network classes were abandoned in droves. Even the elderly couple changed their major to health care.
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I agree more comp-sci should be taught, but while thumbing through my copy of the constitution, I'm having difficulty finding where amongst the limited, emumerated rights and responsibility of the Feds are suppose to dictate and do education? I'm failing to see how you can even tie that into interstate commerce?
And for Mr. Rahm Emanuel, I might suggest for him to figure out that while Chicago has
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Not to mention....the education system should NOT be in the hands of the Feds to dictate what the states teach.
What part of United States don't you understand? Someone has to set the educational standards for the entire country. We can't have 50 states marching to a different drummer, especially when we have a political culture that values ignorance over intelligence.
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Mod parrent up (Score:3)
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The fact that you may never use a skill is no reason at all not to learn it.
As for the idea that you should not learn something unless you are motivated to learn it... All I can say is that I absolutely hated high school. I didn't want to learn about anything that I was being taught at the time... however, I have come to learn the value of these subjects later on in life and wish I would have paid closer attention.
Teaching kids the principles of software development would not be a bad idea at all simply for
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True.
Back in the dark ages when I graduated high school one of the required classes was called "comparative government". A few years early it was called Democracy vs Communism but they decided to tone it down a bit. I was in the class with two friends of mine and where actually getting into the class about four weeks into the class the teacher pulled us over and asked us to stop asking so many questions. He simply put it this way, "You guys are going to pass this class with As but I have kids in here that m
Coding is a "shop" class, not a core class (Score:2)
This is just the latest and greatest "magic bullet" that is going to "fix" the educational system. It will fail. The solution is to spend more time on core subjects like math and reading and science so that students who have any sort of interest or curiosity about electronics or coding or robotics will be better prepared to be introduced to those specialties.
Its no
Not even the most useful shop class... (Score:3)
Teach them how to do basic home maintenance, budget management, interview skills, and professionalism as a requirement of graduating. You'll make a world of difference and they'll use all of it.
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Teach them how to do basic home maintenance, budget management, interview skills, and professionalism as a requirement of graduating. You'll make a world of difference and they'll use all of it.
I think that is basically how things were in my grandparent's days. There was no 1 year of math required for HS graduation. There was 4 years of math required, college prep track or not. If not college bound the math classes were vocational, personal finance and banking, budgeting, practical (ex. area of floor, walls to calculate carpet, paint needed for a room), etc. When I was in HS I applied for a part-time job at a local hardware store. They gave me a math test. When I turned it into the manager I asked
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> Thank goodness he's just a mayor and can't rham his idea through.
Yeah. We sure dodged a bullet there. He's just a mayor. It's not like he's friends with the president or anything.
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It's more than that.
Adam Smith was a bumbling fool; but even a fool who's using his brain gets a surprising amount right. Even the dumbass republicans and liberals and socialists have a huge swath of good ideas peppered with terrible conclusions. The effort of trying to be right about everything only gets you largely correct and on much better footing; someone will come by and fix the flaws in *my* economic theories one day, even, and the only reason there are any flaws there is because I'd naturally ha
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They're all Special Butterflies, you see (Score:2)
Yes. Perhaps they should first concentrate on students achieving at least a reasonable standard of reading comprehension, writing (and I know I'm going out on a limb here) grammar and spelling competence.
Instead of passing students through like shit in a goose regardless of performance.
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actually the biggest issue is the primary reason for outsourcing is not to improve coding but to reduce pay... as in the apps were far from perfect to begin with and then you added the burden of low cost implementation and what may have been bearable is no longer.
Not indians/(insert girder here) fault. it would be like saying that i don't like paying high executive pay so i am going to outsource to executive secretaries (hmm ok that might work out actually) but you get the idea.
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Somebody tell Rahm that quite soon most software will be written by software.
Like the early text editors that wrote mangled HTML code? If you knew HTML and CSS in the late 1990's, you could wade through the source code to manually fix those misbehaving table cells. Tweny years later, I still write HTML code by hand. I even write Python scripts that write HTML template code. Just because software is written by other software, you still need to know how software works when things go horribly wrong.
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Worse than destroying pay is destroying moral. There's nothing more painful than working with a bunch of unmotivated and uninterested people. The motivated people are going to "learn computers" without being forced to go to a class.
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We need kids who know the law, who understand finance, who will become actual citizens.
We need kids who will become carpenters, electricians, plumbers and other skilled trade workers. Construction is facing a critical shortage of workers as the foreign-born workers went home after the Great Recession, others got jobs in different industries, and most will retire in the years to come. We don't need more lawyers or Wall Street finance guys. We need people who can rebuild America.
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"We need kids who will become carpenters, electricians, plumbers and other skilled trade workers. "
Agreed, but the construction industry isn't unionized everywhere, and the only way to ensure a pipeline of skilled workers vs. "the guy down the street with a reciprocating saw" is apprenticeship programs. This, plus middle-class pay wages will bring people back into the trades. Right now, the anti-union rhetoric is very strong outside of the Northeast and California. Without training, a career path and salary
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You need a refresher course on how an idea become a law. It's called democracy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FFroMQlKiag [youtube.com]
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When you're done with the Schoolhouse Rock, you can watch a few episodes of "House of Cards" to get a better perspective. For some reason, "Schoolhouse Rock" left out the arm-twisting, horse-trading, and other backroom dealing necessary to get a bill passed.