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The Almighty Buck

Joking About Giving Money To ISIS Can Cost You Money (arstechnica.com) 321

Posted by msmash from the how-to-lose-money-and-other-curious-ideas dept.
Reader rudy_wayne writes: A person who was using Venmo, an app that allows people to send money to each other via their phones, sent $42 to repay a friend, and jokingly labelled it "ISIS Beer Fund". He immediately got an e-mail from Venmo questioning the purpose of the money. Although he tried to explain "The $42 was payment to a dear friend for two pitchers of Samuel Adams Boston Lager" he was informed "Due to OFAC regulations, we are not allowed to give the funds back to you or issue a refund." The Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control is a 54-year-old institution, quietly working to keep money out of the hands of America's enemies.From the report, "It turns out -- shockingly -- this isn't the first time someone's Venmo transaction was cut off at the knees with a reference to subjects that are a matter of national security. Venmo won't explicitly say what words will trigger blockage, Gawker pointed out in October.
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Joking About Giving Money To ISIS Can Cost You Money More

Joking About Giving Money To ISIS Can Cost You Money

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    • Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Calydor ( 739835 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @04:43PM (#51934779)

      Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.

      • Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)

        by JackieBrown ( 987087 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @04:48PM (#51934857)

        Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.

        Yeah, but if it turned out it really was for ISIS and the institution knowingly ignored and help facilitate the transfer of funds, they would be liable civilly and criminally.

      • Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Funny)

        by the_skywise ( 189793 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @04:50PM (#51934887)

        Yeah they probably memo that as "Payment to a dear friend for two pitchers of Samuel Adams Boston Lager"

        And the Department of Financial Security Monitoring (comrade) goes "Oh that's so nice - we approve of that".

      • /sarcasm "Curses. Technology foiled by human ingenuity. Again. News at 10."

      • Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:4, Funny)

        by Shoten ( 260439 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @04:59PM (#51935035)

        Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.

        Actually, not all of them are. Just the ones that are around long enough to be noticed by anyone besides the people that hunt them.

        Remember, terrorists are not super-human. Just like everyone else, 50% of them have a double-digit IQ.

      • Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:4, Insightful)

        by wisnoskij ( 1206448 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:27PM (#51935339) Homepage

        What I want to know is if any supporter of major terrorist organizations has ever labelled their money transfer as "ISIS Donation"/"Bomb Fund"/"Al-Qaeda". Just give me one person in the history of the world stupid enough to do that, and there is at least some argument to me made for this ridiculous sounding policy.

        • Re:Did you expect a different result? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)

          by aberglas ( 991072 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @06:34PM (#51935839)

          The policy is not at all ridiculous at all, you just miss the point. Terrorism is a very serious business and we cannot have people making fun about it. Not at airports, not anywhere. The more serious people take terrorism, the more funding is available.

          • Nope, the opposite is true: the more we make fun of terrorist groups, the less likely alienated Muslim youths are to run off to Syria to join them!

            • It is interesting how people cannot see beyond the end of their nose. Stopping alienated Muslim youth running off would be an absolute disaster. That is why we go out of our way to alienate them. To grow the industry.

              Remember, every time a government agency spends umpteen million dollars on some silly scheme the GDP of the nation goes up by that amount.

          • Congratulations! You have proven Poe's Law [wikipedia.org].

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tsqr ( 808554 )

        Meanwhile, terrorists are smart enough not to label a money transfer as ISIS BOMB FUNDING.

        That's right. And a terrorist attempting to smuggle a bomb aboard a commercial airline flight is smart enough not to tell the baggage porter, "There's a bomb in that suitcase." But if a regular (non-terrorist) person says such a thing in jest, they will get a thorough anal probing.

        Many years ago, long before the establishment of TSA, I was flying with a work colleague to a contractor site on the opposite coast, with a smallish but heavy hunk of electronic equipment that had been under test until shortly bef

        • That doesn't sound like a joke to me. It was an honest statement, and relevant to the inspector's question. Granted, it wasn't a particularly helpful response, so perhaps was said with some annoyance, but still, pretty unassailable. I agree with the sibling poster: you were going to the room either way.

          I'd like to know how they could have used that statement in interrogation. "YOU SAID IT WASN'T A BOMB? YOU KNOW LYING TO AN OFFICER IS A FEDERAL OFFENSE? YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT STATEMENT BACK?"

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Jiro ( 131519 )

            People under stress say and do stupid things related to the source of the stress. And bombing a plane is highly stressful. I would expect that bombers would have a high chance of going to either extreme--at one end is making bomb jokes and at the other end is being too eager to volunteer "oh, no, I don't have any bombs" when nobody even mentioned the word 'bomb' yet.

            Don't think that just because it's stupid for someone with a bomb to mention it, that they won't.

    • Why would they read and analysed the reason of the transfer... I guess this will drive people using other technique such as Bitcoin.

    • federal POUND ME IN THE ASS could of happened.

    • Fine; can I at least offer them a roast-pork sandwich??

    • Well if I were trying to replace my TWAIN scanner drivers with a different method.

    • Ah the Windows tagline that never was. Apparently it tested poorly in the scientific computing community, and with everyone else.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • WTF? (Score:3)

    by OzPeter ( 195038 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @04:45PM (#51934817)

    Do they really think that the terrorists explicitly mark the reason for their payments?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by H3lldr0p ( 40304 )

      We can't take that chance. Won't you think of all of the children!

      On a more serious note, all it takes is for one person to screw up for them to be caught. Something like this could potentially catch such a mistake but that chance is so small as to make no difference. So what we end up with are hidden rules to catch the improbable butting up against the inevitable joke that will occur. It catches the innocent, the profane, and those who are attempt to point out that the emperor has no clothes. Punishing the

      • On a more serious note, all it takes is for one person to screw up for them to be caught.

        I can see using this for investigating but if nothing is found then the money should be returned. I tend to go shopping at several stores right before a big trip which is atypical for me so it's common for me to get a call from my credit card company or sometimes even have my card get turned off but as soon as they verify that the transaction is fine then everything goes back to normal. They also have random triggers for money deposits or withdrawals at the bank where they write your name in a book if yo

    • Think of it this way. They let the payment go through, odds are 99.99% it's a joke. They make maybe $1 in fees. If it isn't a joke, and OFAC nails them, it's at minimum $100k in legal fees, potential penalties, and reputational problems. That's an expected value of $10. So, it becomes a bad bet.

    • Do they really think ISIS has a beer fund?
  • So it is enough to mention 'OFAC regulation' to steal money without consequences? Sue the bastards.

  • Is Venmo international? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by the_skywise ( 189793 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @04:56PM (#51934991)

    Why does the Office of Foreign Assets Control regulations apply to an unarguably domestic transaction?

    Is this some sort of goofy legal technicality that because the transaction went through the internet they routed it to an off shore server and back just so they could listen in?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tsqr ( 808554 )

      Why does the Office of Foreign Assets Control regulations apply to an unarguably domestic transaction?

      Probably because there are quite a few domestic groups that front for the Muslim Brotherhood, who in turn provide support to Hamas and Hezbollah. Like there used to be quite a few domestic groups that fronted for the IRA.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by JoelKatz ( 46478 )

      A "foreign asset" is one owned or controlled by a foreign entity, even if the asset itself is in the United States.

      • It kind of didn't sound like anything in this case was owned or controlled by a foreign entity. (Unless the beer was an import - which it could have been...from Israel, of all places.)

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by JoelKatz ( 46478 )

          Well, to be unreasonably charitable to Venmo, that's what they were investigating.

          How come every time I try to type "Venmo" it comes out "Venom" and I have to correct it?

  • When I use money for illegal purposes I use money orders!

  • this may be the first time done as a joke. The others were likely intended for ISIS, or AQ, or Taliban, or North Korea, etc. . IOW, we have plenty of enemies that work in America and send home. Just like Europe and any other free nation.
  • Everyone knows that you put "Sensual Massage" in the memo field on checks and other such transfers. Unless you're paying a big corporate entity. Then you probably ought to be serious and put an account number.

    • I thought that was pipe-laying (can't even find that old lawsuit joke on google... it keeps taking me seriously. :) )

  • Same as drugs (Score:5, Informative)

    by thinkwaitfast ( 4150389 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:07PM (#51935127)
    I once transferred money from my savings to checking account and wrote 'supplies for meth production' in the optional for section and it was rejected.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Mitreya ( 579078 )

      I once transferred money from my savings to checking account and wrote 'supplies for meth production' in the optional for section and it was rejected.

      Aren't you glad that your money was not confiscated?

  • saw my old friend at the airport.

  • America (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fishscene ( 3662081 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:12PM (#51935179)
    Land of the Free Home of the Brave. Or as I like to say in cases like this: Land of the oppressed, home of the wussies.
  • That will fool those silly computerized judgment whores.

  • So Venmo thinks it is acceptable to take someone's money away on arbitrary suspicion of wrongdoing without explanation?

    No. They can see Figure 1. [dourish.com]

  • it's right here. (Score:3)

    by supernova87a ( 532540 ) <kepler1@@@hotmail...com> on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:21PM (#51935267)
    As stated in the subsequently linked article, it is not some weird mystery / secret what words are flagged. Dept. of Treasury maintains an easily accessible list of "Specially Designated Nationals" [treasury.gov]which is their compilation of probably most/all of the keywords that will be searched to find if there are matches.

    In this case, "ISIS" is all over that document, like in 30 different places.

    More relevantly, it's a wake up notice to share-everything 20-y.o.s to be aware that not everything is a happy go lucky social media commenting platform with no consequences. And Venmo should make that clearer to users that the comment field is not just a joke.

  • He should have labeled it (Score:5, Funny)

    by TheMadTopher ( 1020341 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:24PM (#51935299)
    for the Panamanian tax evasion account. They let that through automatically.

  • Then they came for the practical jokers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 3john ( 30068 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:29PM (#51935367)

    So everyone, add spook.lines to your outgoing money transfers.

    ^ https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/blob/master/etc/spook.lines

  • He was in trouble for two reasons actually: Bootlegging and Terr Funding.

    As Bugs Bunny would say: What a maroon!

  • Obligatory MIB reference (Score:4, Funny)

    by green1 ( 322787 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:44PM (#51935507)

    "No ma'am, we at the FBI do not have a sense of humor we're aware of."

  • Where does the money end up? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Harlequin80 ( 1671040 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @05:57PM (#51935593)

    Surely the money can't remain with Venmo?

    I would have thought that it would have to be remitted to a government department complete with a report detailing why it was seized, who the people involved in transaction were etc etc. Otherwise you have a massive incentive to a company to make up reasons to seize money and you are not providing any evidence to the security forces that would want to track money to terrorist organisations.

    If the money is sent to OFAC or similar it should be possible to have that money returned to you on completion of 200 forms and waiting 11.5 months.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jrumney ( 197329 )
      Probably this is the way to go. Find out the government organization that should be responsible, and write a polite letter asking for your money to be returned. Hopefully someone human sees it, realises that it is obviously not terrorism funds, and starts tracking internally where the money went. When they find out that Venmo kept it for themselves, they don't just have an irate customer, who is going to have to spend more than the money is worth to get it back, on their ass, they have a government departme
    • Might be the carrot government offers to encourage enforcement of the regulations: file the right forms and you get to keep the money you confiscated.

      • I doubt it. Part of the reason that govt bureaucracies are so inefficient is that every dollar needs to be accounted for and justified in triplicate. Also positive incentivising is not the norm for govt either. They tend to go the big stick and companies call it "cost of compliance" a lot of which is pointless paper trailing.

  • you get what you fucking vote for.

  • Something similar has already been happening to weeabos, who use the term Nico, meaning a smile. Usually either in context referring to the video website Nico Nico Douga or to Nico Tanigawa's catchphrase "Nico-Nico-nii".

    Unfortunately, there's also some Iranian corporation by name of NICO, so the term ends up triggering a flag somewhere.

  • In the middle of London, just outside Fenchurch Street station: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/... [google.co.uk]

    And 50 metres away: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/... [google.co.uk]

  • Guy had work done on his Toyota and used the service to send money, as it wasn't a dealership.

    He also had his money stolen and refused to be returned to either payer or payee.

    http://www.wheel-size.com/size... [wheel-size.com]

    There is a Toyota Isis the morons have zero common sense.

    They just scam with arbitrary keywords. Paypal/Capital One/Discover/Bank Debit cards don't care about "comments" they look only when it goes outside the U.S. to verify.

  • ISIS was the name of a payment processing system that just recently changed it's name as well as the name of a goddess, so I don't think there is ANY rational reason to penalize people for using just those 4 letters. Now, if he said "Daesh beer fund", on the other hand, I could see it. By the way, you know when ISIS refers to themselves, they use Arabic, not the English language acronym, right?

  • So did the money not reach his friend? (Score:3)

    by AbRASiON ( 589899 ) * on Monday April 18, 2016 @08:05PM (#51936355) Journal

    It's been confiscated? Pretty sure that's not legal, it's called theft.

  • I'm not a fan of intercepting money this way, but I don't think we can eliminate it completely. But there should be some straightforward and rapid way for the money to be sent on its way as soon as someone has made a cursory investigation. Something like this lends itself to a ridiculous number of false positives (like this one).

  • How's this not a blatant violation of the Fourth Amendment? The one that says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

  • Boycott (Score:3)

    by lobotomy ( 26260 ) on Monday April 18, 2016 @10:05PM (#51937005)
    Yet another company that I will never have any dealings with. I suggest everyone else follow and spread the word.

  • Easy... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Kazoo the Clown ( 644526 ) on Tuesday April 19, 2016 @04:10AM (#51938293)
    1. Become a worshipper of the Egyptian goddess, Isis. 2. Create the ISIS Beer Fund 3. Wait for Venmo to pull the plug 4. Sue the pants off of them for violating your religious freedom 5. PROFIT!

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