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Businesses China United States Government The Almighty Buck News Hardware Technology

US Steel Says China Is Using Cyber Stealth To Steal Its Secrets (npr.org) 107

Posted by BeauHD from the steel-to-steal dept.
An anonymous reader writes: U.S. Steel Corp. filed a trade complaint with the International Trade Commission: "The Chinese industry has formed a cartel that sets purchase and sale prices, and controls production and export volumes to target export markets. The Chinese industry has used its government to steal U.S. Steel's closely guarded trade secrets and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own." The steelmaker based in Pittsburgh argues its Chinese rivals must be investigated and that they will "use every tool available to fight for fair trade." The ITC has 30 days to review the complaint and determine whether or not it's worth investigating. In the meantime, China's Commerce Ministry said the complaints "have no factual basis," urging the ITC to reject U.S. Steel's case. The investigation will likely take a while if the ITC decides to proceed with an investigation, as they'll be dealing with three separate issues: price fixing, false labeling to avoid duties, and theft of trade secrets.
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US Steel Says China Is Using Cyber Stealth To Steal Its Secrets More

US Steel Says China Is Using Cyber Stealth To Steal Its Secrets

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  • Fair trade
    or
    Trade secrets
    Pick one.

  • usa imposed 266% duty on chinese steel imports in march.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-... [wsj.com]

    seems that failed to help push overpriced bad products

    • Hahaha wow, that seems like kind of a key detail to the situation.

    • ... and thats not NEARLY enough by an order of magnitude. (disclaimer: I have been in the biz for 25 yrs, and the chinese stuff is the worst...)

      • Wow, their steel is worse than their plastic?

        • Also worked in the industry, yes, it's badddd. Way bad. Their plastic is arguably good compared to the shit I keep snapping om german cars...

      • No amount will really do anything to maintain US market share. There's no escaping the fact that it's a global economy, no matter how you try to implement mercantilism. Sure, you might stop US customers from buying, but even though you raise the price in the US, there's nothing stopping say Russia or Japan from buying their steel. The only way you can do anything about dumping is through diplomacy, and by that I mean treaty organizations that provide sanctions that not just the US follows. As you can see, t

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          no matter how you try to implement mercantilism. Sure, you might stop US customers from buying, but even though you raise the price in the US, there's nothing stopping say Russia or Japan from buying their steel.

          Nonsense there might not be much you can do about Russia but you can certainly put back the old East-West first world second world system. Its easy as telling our security umbrella clients you WILL participate in our trade embargos or we WON'T provide the military protection when you require it.

          "Hey Japan it would be a shame if we just let the Chinese do whatever they wanted in the South China Sea."

          Mercantilism certainly did work in the past and it certainly could work again.

        • The only way you can do anything about dumping is through diplomacy

          If "dumping" were a real thing, we should be grateful for it: we are getting a valuable commodity subsidized by the Chinese government.

      • Well it sure isn't helping that Obama is trying to bankrupt US coal producers [dailycaller.com] whose financial health directly impacts US steel production [breitbart.com]. In the place of a real presidential cabinet where things are weighed with all factors and research is done before taking a position... we have had the Department Of CO2 Is Evil And Fuck Everything Else calling the shots. I would go so far as to assume these 'save de planet coal haters' did not even know that coal is a critical precursor to steel production, which is a k

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by gtall ( 79522 )

          The price of natural gas is what is fucking American coal miners. And talk to the people of Norfolk, Va. or Rhode Island about rising sea levels due to CO2. Countries are now tripping over themselves to use the new and improved Northern sea route between the Atlantic and Pacific. Even China is getting into the act.

          Even if you don't believe in global warming, look at the coral reefs bleaching because CO2 is making the oceans acidic. This is the base of the food chain. If you think coal miners have problems n

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        If their stuff is so bad, why are they a threat at all? Why are artificial measures needed to make their stuff more expensive?

    • I'm shocked we managed to get a Tariff through. It's got nothing to do with bad products. 266% is not enough when they treat their workers as disposable and spew poison into the air. If we go back to doing that we could compete too. I think they call it "Race to the Bottom".

      • Re:Wow (Score:5, Interesting)

        by inode_buddha ( 576844 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @11:40PM (#52016987) Journal

        Believe it or not, the south african stuff was higher quality but the worker treatment was probably worse than the chinese even. That is not to say that it was particularly good, it was just relatively somewhat better. If I want good stuff from a modern mill, I get Thyssen-Krupp. That said, the best structural steel I ever used, bar none, was prewar Bethlehem old stock. That stuff was simply amazing. And yes indeed, its a race to the bottom for the workers (me) while the bosses are racing to the top....

    • Bingo. Its about over paid executives, employment costs, cost of living with $9 trillion more ObamaDebt, more ClintonDebt a coming. Obama care, local utility, steel, supply costs... combined with poor costly designs.

      Clinton is clueless glass house career government does not have the solution, nether does Sanders. Trump is only half right, Chinese are more efficient, economical and include value as part of quality. They are lean, efficient and effective. Something America once had and lost. With debt i

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gtall ( 79522 )

        Trump is mostly all wrong. NATO is cheap to afford and without it, the U.S. will be paying much more for defense as it must then go it alone.

        Trump has no solutions, at least he hasn't fielded any. Saying he'll shake things up is not a policy nor a solution. Acting like bull in a china shop will damage the U.S. The things he thinks are true will be damaging if he could ever get them past Congress, which he won't since the Dems will probably take the Senate.

        The rest of your post is simply nonsensical raving.

    • usa imposed 266% duty on chinese steel imports in march.

      These sorts of tariffs tend to be counter-productive. America has way more users of steel than producers of steel. So this will raise costs for American car companies, appliance manufacturers, and everyone else that builds stuff out of steel, making their products less competitive. So instead of importing Chinese steel, we will import more cars, and finished goods.

  • Criminal yes, Poor Security yes (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nethemas the Great ( 909900 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @09:52PM (#52016611)
    Sure China likes to commit industrial espionage. Everyone know that. However, when are corporations (individuals) going to stop hiding behind laws--in the hopes that they will save them--and start taking responsibility for their own security? When in the history of the world has a law stopped a sufficiently motivated criminal?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by axewolf ( 4512747 )

      You say that like american business didn't invent modern industrial espionage. Did you miss WW2?

    • when are corporations (individuals) going to stop hiding behind laws--in the hopes that they will save them

      Just as soon as they holding executives liable for their negligence (corporate responsibility) or after it starts putting companies out of business (survival of the fittest).

    • Sad thing is, that at one time, American businesses and government was decent at security. Now, it is a joke.

    • Protectionism taxing American business just drives up costs and makes them less competitive.

      Better find a better solution. As protectionism on a country level is like a snake eating its own tail. The more you protect, the more uncompetative the nation becomes. How many offices will buy furniture at say $20,000 for a basic metal desk and chair, then be able to compete?

      Its why the existing protectionism taxes for rich and unions is not working. A Chinese or Indian can buy a nice car for only $10,000, pay

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Does everyone know that? As usual there is zero evidence provided here, and in the few cases where there has been evidence it has been extremely weak, like an IP address that is in China (because hackers never use proxies).

      Maybe the Chinese have figured some stuff out on their own. The have a huge number of highly trained engineers and scientists.

  • Industrial Espionage (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rmdingler ( 1955220 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @09:52PM (#52016615) Journal
    Sometimes we forget: It's not just governments spying on other governments or their citizens... sometimes this is done for fun and profit.

    Just don't pretend you've a right to the high road. Chances are, your gov't engages in this subterfuge, too.

  • From TFA:

    "The Chinese industry has formed a cartel that sets purchase and sale prices, and controls production and export volumes to target export markets." But then it added a 21st century twist: "The Chinese industry has used its government to steal U.S. Steel's closely guarded trade secrets and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own."

  • Chinese "Baghdad Bob" (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Of course a real investigation takes some time, 30 days to even decide whether to pursue an investigation. Meanwhile Chinese Baghdad Bob only takes zero days to do his own complete investigation into the matter before he's able to assert with total confidence that none of it's true.

    Unless of course he's nothing but a lying propagandist whose quotes aren't worth the paper they're not even printed on.

  • Humans have been making steel for nearly 4000 years, and the Chinese have been making steel since the Warring States in like 400 BC, when Americans were still living in caves. So what trade secrets could we possibly have that they'd want?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by lgw ( 121541 )

      If you don't understand it, it must be easy, right?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      Yep, steel production has not progressed much in 4000 years. Those alloys we have now, those ancient peoples must sure have had them. Those modern techniques in steel production, hey, they had water wheels, what else did they need run a modern plant.

      Metallurgy? Ever hear of it? Science, math? Ring a bell?

      • Thanks for answering my question. So the trade secrets would be in the formulas of the alloys? That make sense. I don't know from metallurgy.

  • fuck off USA (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    you have been stealing secrets for a few centuries now

    • Maybe the Chinese government has decided that it is in the best interests for China to appropriate the best technology that is available. (Plus a little extra as payback for the Treaty of Wanghia and the Opium Wars.)
      I'm sure that China will advise the US when the debt has been squared.

  • You gave it to them (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 29, 2016 @10:21PM (#52016731)

    The Chinese industry has used its government to steal U.S. Steel's closely guarded trade secrets and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own."

    Really? Really?! You could have fooled me with all those US steel engineers flying out with specs and plans and installing new hardware and software and generally doing just about everything to move the entire fucking industrial supply chain out to China to cut down on labour costs. Is there a single thing that US steel manufacturers didn't teach their Chinese sub-contractors to do over the last 20 years? Out of curiosity. Indulge me here.

  • Keep IP off the Internet and... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Streetlight ( 1102081 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @10:24PM (#52016741) Journal
    Why do companies put their most secret and important intellectual property (IP) on servers connected to the Internet? What they should do is put phony, but looking somewhat reasonable, IP on their "secure" servers. The IP thieves should have some significant difficulty getting at it to make them feel like it's the real stuff. When they spend millions or billions building a factory to duplicate the stuff and then find out it was bogus, so much the better. Maybe the thieves will stop stealing and spend their money and time on innovation.

    • Why do companies put their most secret and important intellectual property (IP) on servers connected to the Internet?

      Willful ignorance and/or hubris.

      What they should do is put phony, but looking somewhat reasonable, IP on their "secure" servers. The IP thieves should have some significant difficulty getting at it to make them feel like it's the real stuff.

      This is called a honeypot.

      When they spend millions or billions building a factory to duplicate the stuff and then find out it was bogus, so much the better.

      The Chinese aren't stupid, they would investigate the material and determine it's validity.

      Maybe the thieves will stop stealing and spend their money and time on innovation.

      Or maybe we could stop hoarding knowledge and further all of humanity at once instead of acting like selfish petulant children.

    • We really need a filter for these kind of stories on /. I mean, the problem and solution is always the same: Company A has no network security because 1.) they went cheap, and the solution is stop doing that.

      Whining to the government after your open-barn-door network gets cracked (if barely, would not be surprised to find an anonymous FTP running on the company's production servers) is merely an attempt to keep your own 'cost-center' low by shoving the problem off onto someone else.

    • Why is this marked insightful? Companies need to communicate, including about their IP. OF COURSE they put IP on the internet. Also who has the time and money to create convincing yet fake IP? As if IP is just a text file with secret words in it. IP can include anything from diagrams to formulas, videos, spreadsheets, etc. Not all IP can be convincingly faked, or perhaps even faked at all.

      Also who would spend millions building a factory without having checked out what was stolen first?

      This is the kind of

  • Wow, what a surprise... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mikeiver1 ( 1630021 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @10:49PM (#52016825)
    Maybe if American companies didn't put their most sensitive information on servers maintained by cheap out of country IT workers and protect said data with cheap off the shelf hardware configured by the cheapest IT staff they can lay hands on they would not find themselves being literally put out of business by their lesser competition.
  • Haven't we've seen this type of story multiple times before?

    .
    A headline should be for something new and unexpected?

  • translation: management whine (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dltaylor ( 7510 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @11:12PM (#52016895)

    We don't want to spend the resources to properly secure our data and infrastructure, so we're going to whine about it, instead, and hope we can get someone else (like the US taxpayers) to solve the problem we've created for ourselves.

  • > and uses those trade secrets to produce advanced steel products it could not make on its own
    Airbus *cough* Boeing *cough*

  • Should have patented it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AK Marc ( 707885 ) on Friday April 29, 2016 @11:52PM (#52017025)
    So, China is steeling trade secrets. The kinds of secrets Patents were invented to protect. Since the steel companies didn't try to protect their inventions in the ways set up that greatly benefit corporations, they deserve to lose them to the Public Domain (where trade secrets lost end up). The people of the US are better off, now that we can legally use the same tech. It's corporate greed. They didn't want to have it exclusively for only 14+ years, so kept it secret until they lost it. They gambled and lost, and had the intention to keep it hidden forever.

    Further proof that IP laws don't work.

    • They didn't want to have it exclusively for only 14+ years, so kept it secret until they lost it. They gambled and lost, and had the intention to keep it hidden forever.

      - trade secrets is the way to go, there shouldn't be government protections for anybody's monopoly, so AFAIC the trade secret is the way to protect your property right. As to 'gambled and lost', so for how long have they had their trade secrets, if they had them for longer than 14 years then they gambled and won.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AK Marc ( 707885 )
        Trade secret for the replacement for patent, yes. But since we have a patent system now, not using it isn't the fault of the Chinese, who more likely reverse engineered it, and US Steel is mad that China is charging less. It's about profit, not tradecraft.

        if they had them for longer than 14 years then they gambled and won.

        For someone who sometimes says smart things, you spend most of your time pretending to be dumb. Patents are good for much longer than that. Velcro is still being protected with patents, invented in 1948. Yes, I know you disagree, argue with reality, n

  • ...that somebody came along and stole all the technology US Stelle looted from Stelco in Canada, and moved down to their US plants.

    Now if China found a way to steal pensions, too, it would really be a case of poetic justice.

  • US Steel lied to every single person involved with their purchase of Stelco steel company, and has dragged out the case for so long, while people I know, and their families, get shafted. http://www.thespec.com/news-st... [thespec.com]. I hate chinese/russian hackers as much as the next guy, but I could care less about US Steel and their scummy tactics.
    • A little more detail on this: Stelco's takeover by U.S. Steel no net benefit for Canada [thestar.com]

      In remaking Stelco into U.S. Steel Canada Inc., the Pittsburgh parent committed to a number of binding undertakings, 31 in all. Chief among them were production levels (an increase in annual steel production to at least 4.3 million tons a year) and employment (no fewer than 3,950 full-time employees).

      Seven years later, in September, 2014, the Canadian operation was granted protection under the Companies’ Creditors

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