Ask Slashdot: Is It Ever OK To Quit Without Giving Notice? 765
HughPickens.com writes: Employees and employers alike have the right under at-will employment laws in almost all states to end their relationship without notice, for any reason, but the two-week rule is a widely accepted standard of workplace conduct. However, Sue Shellenbarger writes at the WSJ that a growing number of workers are leaving without giving two weeks' notice. Some bosses blame young employees who feel frustrated by limited prospects or have little sense of attachment to their workplace. But employment experts say some older workers are quitting without notice as well. They feel overworked or unappreciated after years of laboring under pay cuts and expanded workloads imposed during the recession. One employee at Dupray, a customer-service rep, scheduled a meeting and announced she was quitting, then rose and headed for the exit. She seemed surprised when the director of human resources stopped her and explained that employees are expected to give two weeks' notice. "She said, 'I've been watching 'Suits,' and this is how it happens,'" referring to the TV drama set in a law firm.
According to Shellenbarger, quitting without notice is sometimes justified. Employees with access to proprietary information, such as those working in sales or new-product development, face a conflict of interest if they accept a job with a competitor. Employees in such cases typically depart right away -- ideally, by mutual agreement. It can also be best to exit quickly if an employer is abusive, or if you suspect your employer is doing something illegal. More often, quitting without notice "is done in the heat of emotion, by someone who is completely frustrated, angry, offended or upset," says David Lewis, president of OperationsInc., a Norwalk, Conn., human-resources consulting firm. That approach can burn bridges and generate bad references. Phyllis Hartman says employees have a responsibility to try to communicate about what's wrong. "Start figuring out if there is anything you can do to fix it. The worst that can happen is that nobody listens or they tell you no." What do you Slashdotters think about providing employers notice of departure? Has there ever been a circumstance that warranted quitting your job without any prior notice?
According to Shellenbarger, quitting without notice is sometimes justified. Employees with access to proprietary information, such as those working in sales or new-product development, face a conflict of interest if they accept a job with a competitor. Employees in such cases typically depart right away -- ideally, by mutual agreement. It can also be best to exit quickly if an employer is abusive, or if you suspect your employer is doing something illegal. More often, quitting without notice "is done in the heat of emotion, by someone who is completely frustrated, angry, offended or upset," says David Lewis, president of OperationsInc., a Norwalk, Conn., human-resources consulting firm. That approach can burn bridges and generate bad references. Phyllis Hartman says employees have a responsibility to try to communicate about what's wrong. "Start figuring out if there is anything you can do to fix it. The worst that can happen is that nobody listens or they tell you no." What do you Slashdotters think about providing employers notice of departure? Has there ever been a circumstance that warranted quitting your job without any prior notice?
loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Insightful)
A company cannot fight for right-to-work laws, then be upset when employees exercise their right to not work.
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree: worked @ at DuPont Fibers for 30 years, unit sold to Koch brothers from Kansa ( yes them ) which put us as a private company for them. Had some layoffs and during this time, nobody got a raise for the first 3-4 years under them. Then it was decided to move jobs to Mexico.
I found another job in 2009 when full-time jobs were hard to get and gave them 2 hours notice on my last Friday at work before starting the new job on Monday, this after 35 years. Reason for no 2 week notice: people that did, got treated like shit during those 2 weeks including a boss. Seen what happened and did what I did w/o any regret. Probably would do same thing at current job, as companies now, really don't inspire or try to build loyalty like they use to.
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Insightful)
but the two-week rule is a widely accepted standard of workplace conduct.
when companies only offer you 'contract work' when you are over 50 (since its easier to fire you, being a protected age class if you are NOT fulltime) - and they walk your ass out right after the project is over, the days of company loyalty are ALSO LONG GONE.
I could care less about the company I work for. they could care less about me.
I hate that. I used to care. but they stopped, and so, I had to.
its just that simple.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I could care less about the company I work for. they could care less about me.
Watch and learn something, then you might have a better job finding employment...
https://youtu.be/om7O0MFkmpw [youtu.be]
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Insightful)
So you DO care about them, then.
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:4, Informative)
That's a lost battle, friend. The phrase "I couldn't care less" has been misused by enough people for long enough that the popular variant "I could care less" means the exact same thing.
It sucks that stupidity winds up defining language. But that's the reality we face.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you've done something that justifies immediate dismissal, the company I work for generally gives you notice that you're being laid off ahead of time, and also offers a generous severance to everyone (not just executives). If they had a habit of just kicking people out without warning, I wouldn't feel obliged to give two weeks notice. If the company treats you like crap, though, I don't see where it's written into any contracts that two weeks is required, so too bad.
I have seen cases where people were asked to leave immediately - even escorted out of the building, but then I don't necessarily know the circumstances of their dismissal. In all cases where I know there was no impropriety, work continued for those people laid off for sometimes a month or more (and then severance after that). I guess the point of what I'm saying is that some employers don't deserve the respect of being given notice, but some employers are really quite good about how they handle their employees, and it behooves the person leaving to not "burn bridges," as the TFA mentions.
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Funny)
It's an idiom which means they don't care at all.
I think you'll find it is a colloquialism.
The English language is not a static language defined by pedants.
It's a language made to convey meaning without ambiguity. Not that I really care, I care a bit but not like a grammar nazi could care more than I do. I could care less and less until I couldn't care any less but then I couldn't care less when in reality I could care less, it's just too much effort to do so.
Re: (Score:3)
No, that would be legalese. English, just like any human language, has plenty of ambiguity built right in, simply because context sensitivity makes communication far more efficient - it's a form of entropy encoding [wikipedia.org] - and also because human thoughts and feelings are often pretty ambiguous.
As a side note, this is the reason why machine translation tends to be so terrible: current compute
Loyalty to people not companies (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies are sociopath entities that are only as good to you as they least friendly person to you in any position of power. They don't care anything about you or your well being. People within the company might, but the company does not, it exists to make money. You might owe people loyalty, but never a company.
Re:Loyalty to people not companies (Score:5, Insightful)
You're absolutely right in your characterization of things, but this is what a lot of people fail to get. What we have here are two separate moral standards going on.
Human beings have lived most of their existence in groups of no more than 150 individuals. Even for most of recorded history, most people lived in villages or in neighborhoods in cities where they knew just about every face they saw during the day, every day of their lives. Whatever kind of innate moral sense we have and whatever moral codes we have developed have all developed within this context of face-to-face interactions and persistent relationships. So, human beings have a hard time doing anything that isn't "nice." It's not "nice" to quit without giving notice. What "decent" person does a thing like that?
Companies, by contrast, operate on a system of profit and loss. I am not saying that's a bad thing. What I'm saying is that people shouldn't kid themselves. When a company decides to show you the door, that's excused as being "nothing personal, just business." In other words, they are doing solely what is the interest of the company: most particularly, their bottom line.
People need to understand that these are the rules. By all means, when you're interacting with friends, family, neighbors, or even strangers on the subway, do the right thing—the thing that human interactions have relied on for millennia. But when you're dealing with a company—when it's business—think first what's in your best interest, and then do that without a qualm.
Maybe giving notice is right for you, then and there. Then, go ahead. But, maybe walking right out the door is the best thing for you. In that case then, by all means, don't let the door hit you in the ass.
No they don't. (Score:3)
They don't care if they burn out, destroy moral, etc. They'll just import more H1B Visas.
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I suppose people who quit without notice coul
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No, no they don't. Such packages exist but they definitely not the norm, even where they do exist they are normally only paid under certain limited circumstances like lay offs.
Don't kid yourself, the company attaches strings to such offers like not filing unemployment (so they can avoid their rates going up), gag terms, etc. There is nothing altruistic about this.
On the other hand I've
Re: (Score:3)
Clearly we can tell who are CEOs and who are not.
A CEO gets fired, and they get 5 years salary, even if they only worked for a single year.
Re: loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Insightful)
That's all good in theory until they list you as terminated for job abandoning. It also doesn't look good to future employers if they just said you quit without notice. They want some sense of stability when investing in a new hire.
Of course if it is a similar field in a close area, they probably already understand the conditions or reasons because you wouldn't be the first to do so.
Re: (Score:3)
job abandoning
you made that up. its not 'a thing'. firstly, you QUIT. they can't say anything else. its their word against yours. and you would never list a company you quit from as a ref.
what planet are you from??
Re: (Score:3)
This happened to me. Gave my employer FOUR WEEKS notice, even though contractually I only had to give two. About a week before I was due to finish they realized that my replacement (actually just my boss who was somehow going to do two jobs) was on holiday for two weeks and they needed me to stay on. I refused, I had committed to my new employer and they had work lined up.
I can't ask them for a reference now as they are adamant that I walked out. Fortunately when I switched jobs again I just explained what
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Interesting)
Sometimes you just have to burn a bridge, you want to hold it long enough for your friends to make it across but you have to burn it before the disease ridden husk of a functioning company makes it across and infects the rest of society.
Re: loyalty is a two-way street (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: loyalty is a two-way street (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: loyalty is a two-way street (Score:4, Insightful)
My work place wanted to move me an unreasonable distance from where I used to work. I had just moved to a new apt within the last 4 months to avoid exactly the kind of commute I would of had to do if I started working at the new location. I progressively started to work more and more from home, until I went a whole week without showing up at work. At some point my manager asked me if I was going to start working from the office again, I said no that wasn't very convenient for me. He mentioned a few other things but long story short, I'm still working from home. Pay cheques still get mailed and I'm happy as I could be now that I get to work from home every day.
Moral of the story: Just like when you're dealing with cops, make sure to distinguish between what they're 'asking you vs 'what they 'demand of you'. Someone with no balls would of returned to work from the office after having the conversation I had. I decided to stand up for myself and do what I felt was right, and I feel like I'm being handsomely rewarded for it.
Re: (Score:3)
I would caveat "harassment" to add "and HR didn't fix it".
Overall, as much as they may deserve it, leaving without notice risks hurting yourself. The one question future employers may ask former employers is "is he eligible for re-hire", and a "no" there can hurt you. Sometimes it's worth it even so, but don't cut off your nose to spiderface.
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I quit without notice once and the employer claimed i was fired for not showing up. I actually had to explain that not showing up was proof that I quit at a future interview. I was already into the interview process when the work reference came up but i had already told them I quit the job.
My reason was being expected to work a 12 hour shift just 4 hours after being held over 6 hours on my previous shift making an 18 hour day. They said I would be wrote up if i was late for the next shift and i asked them t
Re: I always quit without notice (Score:2)
Re: I always quit without notice (Score:4, Funny)
I'm sure they all miss you
Re: I always quit without notice (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason you can't find a decent job is because companies that are good to work at won't hire people like you.
You don't give notice because you give a shit about your (soon to be former) employer, you give notice because that's what a professional does. Walk out without notice and you declare "I am not a professional."
Small wonder you can only get shitty jobs. You're a shitty employee.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't give notice because you give a shit about your (soon to be former) employer, you give notice because that's what a professional does. Walk out without notice and you declare "I am not a professional."
And yet it's "professional" to just walk an employee out the door without prior notice? Riiiiiight.
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And yet it's "professional" to just walk an employee out the door without prior notice? Riiiiiight.
It isn't.
That why most companies don't do that either.
Asshole companies get asshole employees and asshole employees get asshole companies.
Most people and companies aren't assholes, and they'll both be decent about ending employment.
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No, what you are declaring is that you don't consider the company greater than yourself. Two-week notice for one and having guards escort you to the door for the other are primarily an obedience ritual establishing and reinforcing society's power relations. "Professionalism" is really just our versio
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Things are generally very different in an environment with 20 people. When I've worked in small environments two weeks notice was never an issue and leaving was tr
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Of course! (Score:2)
That's the Cosmic Shame [youtu.be].
Double Standard (Score:5, Insightful)
Employers LOVE at-will, when it's in their favor. But a lowly employee exercising that same right? Ohh nooo, you're just young and inexperienced.
If I'm an employee and I fuck up or do something that is grounds for termination... no employer in an at-will state is going to say "Okay, we're firing you, but we're going to let you keep working here for two more weeks while you look for a new job". No, you'll be out on your ass.
Well, if a company treats me in a way that I view as unacceptable, guess what.. I'm not giving you two more weeks of my life. The whole "employees are expected to give two weeks" bullshit is a such a double standard in many cases.
I will give you notice if you treat me in a way that deserves for notice to be given.
Re: (Score:3)
Has anyone ever accomplished much of value in their two week period? It's rarely enough time to replace you, let alone give you any time to transition any worthwhile knowledge to them.
Usually it seems to mostly involve them groveling and offering more money, but I've never known anyone that said "you know what, that sounds great I'll just stay"
My boss and I both documented well in two weeks (Score:5, Interesting)
When I last changed jobs, I spent much of that two weeks cleaning up documentation and writing a simple and direct "introduction to the position" document for my replacement. During that time, my boss and backup did my normal duties. In doing so, she ran into a few hurdles, some questions. I was there to assist. By the day I left, she had been doing my daily job for two weeks. (While interviewing, I arranged for our workload to be light for the following few weeks).
At my current job, my boss recently quit. During his two weeks, he spent probably 60 hours documenting like crazy and demonstrating stuff for those of us he left behind. That was VERY helpful for us.
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.
My employer pays out 2 weeks of severance if they fire someone. So I think it's fair to give 2 weeks notice to them. If they didn't, it would depend on the circumstances if I gave leave or not.
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Dupe? (Score:5, Informative)
If this story leaves you a feeling of dejavu, don't worry, it's just Hugh Pickens cross-posting on /. and SN [soylentnews.org] again to attract more traffic to his site
Re:Dupe? (Score:5, Funny)
Karma is a bitch (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Karma is a bitch (Score:4, Interesting)
I worked at cisco as a contractor. was on a 6month contract and on a thursday I got a call from my contract company telling me that tomorrow, friday, is my last day. the boss didn't call me, didn't email me, didn't give a warning, didn't give a repair plan, didn't get SHIT. didn't even have the BALLS to tell me himself.
to this day, I can't use cisco as a ref since that son of a bitch still works there and its impossible to work at a place like that again if the boss is still there. they WILL find out who he is and he WILL rat on you.
I've tried to ask the guy, nicely, to not stand in the way of my gainful employment. I did nothing wrong, I was never given a reason for the dismissal but to this day, he refuses to answer any ref calls, not even to just say the minimal.
he costed me a lot of money and many months of being out of work. again, no fault of my own; something political happened (my best guess) and I was out the very next day. my contractor company would not even tell me. not kidding.
this is SOP and its why I could care less about bosses, these days. they will happily screw you even though they gain nothing but ego from it. for me, I was out of work a long time and nearly lost my home. he could care less.
fuck cisco. be warned, young guys; this will happen to you if you work long enough and get old enough. do NOT give companies your loyalty. they will screw you every fucking time.
Re: Karma is a bitch (Score:3, Interesting)
Reading your posts over the last 6 months it's 1 of two things or a combination of both.
1. You have Asperger'sand need to work on your people skills a bit.
2. You are smart AF and ur boss was scared of ur technical skills.
I am in the middle of looking for a new hire and I am frightened they will be that much better than me I will be out the door. So looking for the Luke warm porridge is a skill.
I'd say you should underestimate your abilitiesso you don't frighten your next employer.
Re: (Score:3)
It's no longer a Bay area thing. It's the same almost everywhere. Infosys alone has currently +30,000 visa workers in the USA, and their biggest markets are Sunnyvale, Charlotte, Houston, Phoenix, Atlanta. They have the same number of people in Seattle, Hartford and NYC. Throw a dart on the map and they're bound to have 800-1200 workers in the closest big city.
And that's just Infosys. There's Tata, Accenture, IBM, all playing the same game.
So you're left with two choices. You can swim against the current, o
Vacation (Score:4, Interesting)
I have like ten weeks vacay banked. I can give ten weeks notice and walk right out the door.
I will, of course, generously offer to consult hourly at 90% of the rate my boss charges clients for my time for the first three months.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't know about where you are, but here there employer gets to say when you're allowed to take vacation time, and you're required by law to give reasonable notice of resignation, which is generally understood to be two weeks. Employers are also required to pay out your vacation time when you quit. So you could give two weeks notice, and then after two weeks, you'd be done, and given ten weeks pay.
Labour laws vary, of course, but I can't imagine that there are places where employees can take vacation wher
You Can Be Let Go In Texas Anytime (Score:2)
A: Because it breaks the flow of a message (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hamachi Kama! (yellow tail heads)
Now I want Japanese food.
Turnabout IS fair play... (Score:2)
Typically when a company lays off an employee (or a few employees) as part of a layoff, how much notice do they give?
Usually it's immediate and involves a security escort to HR.
Re: (Score:2)
Typically when a company lays off an employee (or a few employees) as part of a layoff, how much notice do they give?
Usually it's immediate and involves a security escort to HR.
This, so much this. If your employer is one of the good ones and treats their employees fairly then feel free to give two weeks or however long it takes for a handover.
However if they just got done firing 1000 employees so the VP can make his bonus, and you are one of the skeleton crew left feel free to drop their ass like a bad habit. They show no loyalty and should get none in return.
Re: (Score:2)
Definately depends on the field and the company.
Quite a few companies will start by putting employees on "performance improvement plans", that can be as much as 6 months in some cases, with feedback along the way as to how you're doing.
With layoffs often come severance. And not all companies are Disney forcing employees to train their replacements.
If you work for a company like that, then, IMO, some mutual respect is appropriate.
If you work the cash at McD? WHATEVER!
Never (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Yup. That happened at my previous employer (norse.) I'm glad I saw the writing on the wall..
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norse? omg!!
I was VERY close to joining them, too. they dragged it out for weeks and weeks. such bullshit.
missed it by a hair. months later, they melted down and everyone (nearly) was let go.
Golden rule (Score:2)
Does your workspace always give a two week notice for laid off employees? If not, why should employees bother when the situation is reversed?
On the same note, do you expect employees to invest major effort into protecting your confidential information? Better secure employees SSNs and other confidential information well and offer financial compensation if the system is hacked.
Do Whatever You Can Afford (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're not being mistreated, then don't be a jerk. *Especially* if your leaving without notice will screw over your co-workers, who plan to stay. If you have a good working relationship with your boss and co-workers, then jumping ship to greener pastures is not only acceptable, but even celebrated.
I know for a fact, that if someone in *my* group were to quit, it would totally fuck over for my vacation plans, and I would lose a LOT of money.
Your network is absolutely vital in today's job market. Screw over your employer, or worse, your fellow employees? They'll remember that. And they'll post about it on Facebook and LinkedIn.
But if this is because you're a daily ration of crap? And you're in a right-to-work state? AND you have no reason to expect you'll ever work with your fellow employees again, or your leaving won't hurt them?
Drop that bomb with pride.
Re: (Score:3)
Giving you 2 weeks notice 2 weeks away from your vacation would change all that, how?
If your leave was rescinded because someone left, then it would be rescinded if someone was injured/sick as well.
If your team is that fragile, invest in some travel insurance. If you were posting all over Facebook and LinkedIn about failing to manage risk I'd think you were the jackass.
The best way to pull a Jonny Paycheck (Score:3)
call in sick and warn the coworkers to call in sick and then park across the street when the FBI/IRS/FTC/FCC does a raid on them.
Depends on your employer... (Score:5, Insightful)
Quitting without giving notice is rude. That's all, just rude.
If your employer has been reasonable and supported you with things you want (perhaps flexibility in hours, or training), then two weeks notice is only the polite thing to do.
If they've been extorting god-awful amounts of overtime from you, perhaps with the ever-present threat of being let go for no reason at all, then a little rudeness isn't out of place.
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Yes, of course (Score:2)
There's no loyalty the other way, employers fought long and hard to make sure it works that way; why do you owe them anything?
Is it ever? (Score:2)
Certainly. Pretty much any question framed that way yields a 'Yes' answer. I've walked out on abusive bosses. Most notable was as a single dad and the SOB said I should bring my two year old daughter in evenings and on Saturday because he'd made promises that couldn't be kept. That company destroyed two marriages I know of.
BUT, have backup money or you're an idiot (especially in my circumstance). If no money, make sure you're walking right into another job.
Better to stick around... (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, if they don't boot you the moment you give notice, the two week "lame duck" phase can be the best part of your time working there. Spend a day finishing your leftover projects and writing some halfassed documentation, bullshit by the watercooler 7 hours a day for 8 more, and turn in your work on day 10. The next guy can deal with any do-overs needed.
And if you hate your job due to your immediate boss but don't have another one lined up, never quit! Turn it into a job you like until they fire you. Do the projects you like and completely ignore the ones you don't like. Boss complains about 1 hour lunches? Take a 2 hour lunch instead. If you work for a large enough company there's enough red tape and "protocol" to keep you employed for at least a month while you do whatever the fuck you want. Bonus, if you play by the rules they won't even be able to fire you "with cause".
The man who told me this secret managed to "work" a full extra year while giving 0 fucks at a job he would have hated, had he cared.
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My problem with that advice is what if the employee is the problem in this scenario and not the boss or the work place. Now we have a great way for a problem employee to be more of a problem.
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You sir are a Zen master.
Yep -- it cuts both ways (Score:2)
I have personally worked at firms that felt it was OK to lay people off without two-weeks' notice (and without severance pay). So, yeah, I think it's ok. Have I ever done it? No. Would I ever have done it? It would take some pretty extreme circumstances, since I'm a firm believer in not burning bridges (unnecessarily). However, at this point, I'm 63 and self-employed, so it's not likely to come up again in my own life. :-)
Isn't it obvious? (Score:2)
Of course it can make sense. (Score:5, Informative)
The question posed is "Has there ever been a circumstance that warranted quitting your job without any prior notice?"
Of course such situations arise. Giving notice should be the default, out of respect for co-workers who may have to juggle their tasks and schedules if you leave and ideally out of a respect for your employer. But if you work in an abusive workplace and have no ability to change that, then leaving immediately is often justified by the way you are being treated or by the way your employer is treating others.
Whether it is legally advisable, financially plausible, will hurt your career to leave, or will leave good co-workers in the lurch if you leave are all other questions that will influence the decision of whether to actually do it.
Almost always justifiable (Score:5, Insightful)
If the employee is so angry or annoyed that they are willing to leave without notice, it is probably best that they are just allowed to leave.
Do you really want a disgruntled employee, serving your customers, maintaining your IT system, managing your finances, ... for two weeks?
It maybe in the contract but it makes no sense to force someone to stay unless they are very closely supervised.
Two choices (Score:5, Interesting)
Leave without notice and start working the next day at your new job:
Result: Guaranteed no lost income
Leave with two weeks notice:
Result #1: Company fires you on the spot, walks you out and you lose two weeks of income
Result #2: Company keeps you on the payroll the two weeks, no loss of pay
All the risk is yours when you give two weeks notice, you give all the options to the company. When the shoe is on the other foot it is pretty much guaranteed that the company won't give you two weeks notice that they are going to let you go and few will pay you two weeks even though they'll walk you out right after telling you that you are fired.
My suggestion is spend a day or two putting together a transition folder, hand it in on the day you quit and wish them the best. Tell them that for security reasons you can't provide two weeks notice.
Re: (Score:3)
Likewise - I've seen this in a number of companies, regardless of if they know where you're going or not. If you have access to what they consider trade secret IP (despite either having developed it or worked on it for years), I've seen friends get shown the door within minutes of giving notice. However, those companies have always paid them for those two weeks, they just didn't want them to have access any longer.
Of course it is. (Score:2)
Well, it does depend a little on circumstances, and it's not without its consequences. You should generally avoid burning any bridges you don't have to, and it's not just the company's attitude to you that you need to worry about; other employees might remember you as that guy who up and left unexpectedly which made life difficult for everyone. Which can bite you in the arse a year or two down the line when they're a different company you're applying at and might have a say in hiring.
But if the company's tr
Depends on the situation (Score:5, Interesting)
The last day I showed up to work, I was thrown under the bus by the manager in front of our VP and the rest of the team for a lie to cover up the manager's incompetence. I went home, got up the next day, went to my doctor for a note to get the rest of the week off, and marched in on the following Monday to the reception desk with a letter of resignation and dropping off all of the company equipment. Didn't even talk to my manager, and didn't answer any of the manager's phone calls or e-mails, nor anyone else on the team after the day I got thrown under the bus. I, quite literally, disappeared.
Why did I quit like this, especially without another source of income or health care coverage? Because leaving a gaping hole with a giant question mark in my wake was the only bit of power I had left to send a message for all of the misrepresentation, incompetence, unreasonable expectations and malice of the team that I had experienced . My mental and physical health has improved substantially since quitting, and so has the relationship with my loved ones. That team was screwed either way, but royally so with some of their deadlines that I had left the gaping hole in their roster for. I would've loved to have worked for another part of the company and was more than qualified to do so, but corporate rules prevent changes in position for the first year, and I had no expectation of a good review despite having been a high performing employee at other companies.
In the end, these issues point directly to the utter contempt that technology employers have for their employees, particularly their low-to-mid-tier individual contributors. What else should they expect when they themselves give no notice to employees when they terminate them? What else should they expect when they treat their employees like trash, expect them to work startup hours while receiving established company pay and bonuses, change job descriptions at a whim, and don't have the decency to form any kind of coherent team environment or structure?
The real message to HR departments and upper management on this phenomenon is this: if employees are quitting without notice more frequently, your problem is with your current corporate structure, management, and business, not with the employee that quits without notice, and you ignore this problem at your own peril.
The new workplace (Score:3)
In the workplace of today, when employers ditch people in favor of cheaper offshore replacement, or downsize you out of a job with no notice, or the myriad of other crap employers pull, I think quitting with no notice is perfectly acceptable. That road goes both ways after all, if employers treat their employees like disposable commodities, we the employees can and should do the exact same thing.
That's how I feel at least. My current employer has treated me well, and seems to treat others well, too. So I'd probably be respectful and give notice. But I think if I worked for a company treating people poorly, I would feel no obligation to be courteous about leaving them.
Did that in the heat of the moment once... (Score:5, Interesting)
I was working for a major defense contractor. Fortune 500 (probably Fortune 100).
Manager came in and told me that over his objections, I was being transferred to the Project From Hell. Before I even had a chance to think, the first words out of my mouth were, "I quit!". And my immediate reaction after that was "Oh my G-d... what the hell have I just done?"
Lucky for me, I was fairly senior, and the two other guys who were supposed to go to said project (who were senior to me) had identical reactions.
The three of us wound up in a meeting with the division's VP of Engineering. We didn't quit, we didn't have to transfer, and (fortunately), our careers weren't ruined (probably because the PfH had a reputation throughout the division).
What references? LOL (Score:3)
Even more hypocritical is that HPE wants professional references yet refuses to give the same. And what is a "personal reference" anyway? That I can grill a good burger, and am fun at parties? That might fulfill a part of what potential employers are looking for (works well with others) but does little to ascertain how I function in a technical position. Once I finally pinned down their exact HR policy I told them the difference what they would allow for people seeking references; I guess it worked since I'm starting a new job Monday lol.
Employer's terms, employer's choice (Score:2)
It was the employer that wrote the at-will terms into the agreement. If they don't like their own terms, Not My Problem. For me it depends on two things: how satisfied or annoyed I am at my current position, and how anxious the new position is to have me start. If I'm relatively happy with my managers and co-workers and it's just that the new position's offering me better pay or different work, I'm going to push for 2 weeks notice before I start the new position just out of courtesy. If my current employer'
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
zero notice (Score:2)
I've been laid off with no notice and no severance in the tech industry before. So why should I give any employer a 2 week notice?
I've always given notice. (Score:4, Interesting)
Even in situations where the place was going to hell and was suffering under the worst managers. (In the case I'm thinking of; a big, very bro-y, MBA-ish, golf-buddies-get-promoted, east-coast logistics company acquired the close-knit San Francisco tech company I worked for. The cultural differences were irreconcilable for more than a few of us.) The thing is, I wasn't giving notice for the benefit of the company. I was giving notice for the benefit of my co-workers. (The legacy ones from our days as our own company, that is.). Two weeks may not be enough time to hire an actual replacement. But if you're on the ball, you can cram in a lot of knowledge transfer and not leave your friends and colleagues hanging (Any more than is absolutely necessary as a consequence of your leaving.).
To provoke a no-notice resignation, I think I'd have to have become aware that the company was breaking the law or engaged in a serious ethical violation. Physical violence, or sexual harassment or orientation discrimination would probably do the trick too.
Two Way Street (Score:4, Interesting)
Does the company give at least two weeks paid notice to everyone it terminates?
Then my minimum will also be two weeks notice.
Does the company usually just tell people to gather their things and pay out the minimum it's legally required to?
Then my minimum will be the same.
Does the company generally give a couple of weeks severance unless for cause?
Then my minimum is also two weeks unless I'm quitting due to their cause.
Does the company have a good standard severance package?
Then I will also give them the option to have my work out longer.
Note: I say minimums. I'm also aware that, as poor as their behavior may be, I've also got my own reputation to watch out for. They may be a bunch of asshats. But my next employer is likely looking for reassurance that they'll get a respectful notice period and my quitting without notice, unless it's really easy to justify, just makes me look bad to future employers who background check.
As A Manager... (Score:5, Insightful)
If I'm doing my job properly as a manager, no one should ever be indispensable.
Highly valued? Sure. I want to build a team where everyone is exceptionally valued.
But if anyone ever becomes indispensable, I've failed in my job as a manager.
Why? The hit by a bus factor. That wonderful employee who loves me, who I love... can still get hit by a bus. Can still get sick. Can still have a loved one die. Can still have a relative offer to pay all expenses for a once in a lifetime six week world trip.
If I have any employee that I can't keep my team running without, even at zero notice, I'm not running my team well.
It may suck. It may be sad. It may require some juggling I'd much rather not do. But any indispensability means I've done my job badly.
This means, if someone quits with zero notice, I can handle it.
At that point, it's actually a good thing anyway. If they're so pissed off that they'd statement quit, I don't need them in the office, poisoning others, dragging their heels through their short timer's disease. Let's get them somewhere where they're happy and get my team of great people back doing great things. We'll live.
Strange thing? When you have a well run team that you can already be confident in, people rarely statement quit anyway. For some reason, they don't seem to feel the need. Imagine that. And when they do? You've got it handled anyway.
That seems really short sighted today (Score:3)
In other words, an applicant faces so many hurdles beyond their control right now that it would be a poor idea for them to place any more in their own way. I've had employers in the past with whom I gave 2 weeks notice to and they accepted it and allowed me to leave earlier to start my new job; this is not terribly uncommon. It is far better to give the notice to retain the positive reference if at all possible.
3 months is the rule here... (Score:3)
I have worked previously in the US but I must say that I prefer the Scandinavian setup we have here (in Oslo, Norway):
You must give notice, typically 3 months from the end of the current month, and if your employer wants to fire you they must also give similar notice, i.e. 3+ months.
For older/more senior employees the notice interval increases for the employer, up to 6+ months for a worker in her sixties.
What this means is that both parties know that they have to stay civilized.
In a case of possible conflict of interest it is common for these long notice intervals to be negotiated down, sometimes to zero. I.e. when I considered leaving my then job to go work for a major client of ours, my CEO told me that I would be allowed to leave immediately. (I didn't accept that offer so the question became moot.)
OTOH, I have been in a situation where I effectively quit immediately, but that was only an in-house transfer:
I went to my yearly performance review after a year of effectively being my own boss, but I still needed someone to be responsible for signing my time sheets and travel expenses etc, so the same person was doing my review.
The guy started the review by saying "Terje, as we both know you aren't really working for me so I had to go out and ask a few of the people you have been helping over the last year, and according to them it sounded like we should put a statue of you outside the corporate headquarters!"
OK, so at this point I was thinking 'This is going very well!' but then he continued "- but since I have a limited sum to distribute for pay raises I have reserved that for my own people and given you a negative evaluation so you will not be getting anything this year".
At this point I stood up, saying "I don't think we have anything else to talk about", left the room and went directly to HR telling them they had better find me a new boss to report to.
Terje
Re:Always (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Always (Score:5, Funny)
Based on OP's demand to show as much loyalty that they show you, your brother is now required to give 4 years' notice.
Re:Always (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to second this. I work for a small (formerly family-owned) company.
My wife got ALS. They did everything possible to accommodate me. They realized that company loyalty is a two way street.
Re:Always (Score:5, Insightful)
That's one of the secrets, right there. Work in a place where the decision-makers actually reside and whom you will occasionally encounter, and you have a chance of being treated with respect. If "corporate" is in another town, all bets are off.
Re:Always (Score:5, Interesting)
That's one of the secrets, right there. Work in a place where the decision-makers actually reside and whom you will occasionally encounter, and you have a chance of being treated with respect. If "corporate" is in another town, all bets are off.
I second that. I work for a Mom and Pop ( literally) software consultancy. They truly do treat their employees like extended family, and bend over backwards to accommodate employees with family problems.
I could make more at another place; but there is something nice about not having to look over your shoulder nor having to keep your resume polished...
Re:Always (Score:5, Interesting)
My father, an immigrant, had been working for the same company for almost 25 years. Made it from blue collar worker to upper management. At some point, war broke out in his home country. He went to his boss and asked for a leave of absence to get his mother out of the war zone. The next day, he was called into a meeting of top executives.
He got told: " You have been working for us for 25 years, it's time for us to do something in return". They arranged for flights for him and me, hotel rooms, and at the airport they had a large amount of US currency waiting for us. Needless to say, he got as much time as needed. We ended up saving over 20 family members from the Kosovo war in 1999.
The company was a large multinational company, not some small family owned shop. Even today, this impresses me. Not all corporations are bad.
Untrue (Score:5, Informative)
No. There Is No Effective Fiduciary Duty to Maximize Profits
https://medium.com/bull-market... [medium.com]
I realise what you are saying is effectively believed to be true by millions, but its little more than a cultural myth. I'm writing in the hope people starting new companies don't behave in the crass manner you describe.
Re: (Score:2)
It entirely depends on the kind of job it is and whether you need it on your resume. ... so you can use it on your resume to explain your employment history.
You can walk and use it on your resume.
In almost all cases, your previous employer is legally not allowed to say anything to prospective employers besides confirming whether or not you worked there.
It used to be that you'd want a good reference (they're legally allowed to provide or be a reference), but many employers have made it against their own rules to provide references, probably for fear of violating the aforementioned laws.
There can still be benefits to staying, but not all that much.
Re:Depends on the job.. (Score:4, Informative)
I get calls all the time from people on my professional network asking about such or such person because they saw on their resume that they worked at a same place I used to. Often if I don't know them I will make a call to whoever I know and trust that still work there, and I'll get the straight dope. There's even been cases of double hops, with my contact reaching out to his own contacts. That's how a good network works.
When I get those calls I never badmouth anyone, but I've given enough glowing reviews about excellent former coworkers that people who ask me can tell from the lack of enthusiasm when they're dealing with a bad apple. And anyone who leaves without warning is a bad apple in my book.
Employment verification between HR departments usually serves the purpose of validating the dates on your resume. If the role to fill has any importance, it's the informal calls or discussions during a random encounter at a trade show that will seal your fate.
Re: (Score:2)
I can laid off without notice. Others are laid off without notice.
This is true, but there is generally two weeks pay (or similar) in lieu of notice. Various state employment laws cover the situation to varying degrees.
I think as a general rule, there's no point or advantage in burning bridges or maximizing bad feeling. But that's just a general rule and specific situations, such as being told to do something illegal or unethical, being seriously harassed or mistreated, etc., would call for an exception and probably follow-up with legal action.
Re:Other way around? (Score:5, Insightful)
Right choice.
Never accept a counteroffer. _Never_.
Re: (Score:3)
I had a CIO grab me the day after I tendered my resignation and tell me he wasn't going to make a counter offer because they don't help at all.
I told him that was fine, as I would have had to decline one anyway as nothing he could offer would address the reasons I was leaving.
He did however want to know those reasons. People left the company rather less voluntarily as a result. Other changes were made. I'm happier at my new employer, and my former colleagues also have a better working environment.
Sometimes