New Snowden Leaks Reveal More About NSA Satellite Eavesdropping (theverge.com) 100
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Newly published documents from Edward Snowden have shed more light on American surveillance operations in the UK. The Intercept details how the NSA and GCHQ used information gathered by Menwith Hill Station, a massive but tightly sealed facility that intercepts satellite data transmissions worldwide. Among other things, the files appear to include evidence that links UK-based surveillance to American anti-terrorism campaigns outside official combat zones. While many surveillance efforts focus on the internet's connective "backbone" cables, Menwith Hill intercepts wireless signals, using an array of antennae and U.S. government satellites to capture up to 335 million pieces of metadata in a 12-hour period. Previous reports -- including an earlier Snowden leak -- have already revealed some of its capabilities. But The Intercept includes more details, particularly about the UK's involvement in "capture-kill" operations against suspected terrorists. It describes how the GHOSTHUNTER program traced the location of targets "when they log onto the internet," often in internet cafes. A different program called GHOSTWOLF, which let the NSA and GCHQ monitor traffic from Yemeni internet cafes, is part of a plan to "capture or eliminate key nodes in terrorist networks" by tracking their locations. This leak fuels existing suspicions that the UK's role in American covert drone strikes is greater than it admits -- potentially implicating it in the civilian deaths that have resulted. GCHQ told The Intercept that all its work "is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework," and "is entirely compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights."
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The government should be spending those dollars on trying to catch the pricks who mean to do it harm, and not drag netting all over our inherent rights. Things have clearly gotten out of hand.
I would tend to agree but government is just way too busy giving money and munitions to the Saudi's to fund Madrassas and conduct indiscriminate bombing operations within Yemen.
Is Snowden completely stupid? (Score:1)
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Are you?
Governments are keeping secrets! SECRETS!!!
I fully support Fragnet's extremely large prick. Snowden on the other hand... Russia cold... shrinkage.
Re: Is Snowden completely stupid? (Score:5, Insightful)
"No. Snowden deliberately dumped these documents. You don't get out of murder charges when you hire the hitman."
What a strained analogy that is.
If you report (and provide proof) of government corruption, overreach, and general malfeasance to the legitimate press; and the press sorts thorugh it, verifies it, and determines what is newsworthy and publishable... that is an important function of the press.
Snowden definitely broke the law taking the information, but I think he should be pardoned.
But holding him responsible for what the press does is as ridiculous as holding you responsible for someone the police kill after you report a crime to them.
a) its not automatically a crime when the police kill someone.
b) even when the police are in the wrong, its STILL not your fault for reporting the original crime to the police.
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Source? (And no, lack of evidence is not evidence)
Re: Is Snowden completely stupid? (Score:1)
It's not the foreign spying that concerns Americans, you fuckwit. It's spying on citizens that is a problem.
I don't give two fucks if China does. I don't have to worry about being extradited on bogus charges to Shanghai. I do if some Fed gets pissed and decides to structure a story.
So there's a fucking difference.
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Someone is angry that Snowden has done more good for the murican people then any expendable clown has done with a machine gun in his hands for the past 60+ years. Feel free to raise your chromosome-enriched children to join the army, this planet will be better off when your bloodline comes to an end.
Betrayed America to Americans? (Score:2)
He leaked to a pair of American journalists.
Re: Is Snowden completely stupid? (Score:5, Insightful)
Spying is what governments do. Domestic spying by the intelligence services is a good thing.
Domestic spying breeds corruption and isn't a legitimate activity. Hence the reason it's illegal.
Spying has stopped acts of terrorism on US soil.
Meanwhile a 9/11 load of people are murdered in the US each and every quarter like clockwork.
If you are a Muslim, you especially want the government spying on Muslim activities. The last time the US government did not do it's job and spy on Muslims was 911.
60 9/11's worth of murders have occurred since then in this country. Why exactly should everyone give up their rights and privacy in the name of a single outlier event given they are more likely to be murdered by a non-terrorist, killed in a car accident or falling in their own homes?
As a result of that mistake the US government with the support of the U.S. populace destroyed Afghanistan, Iraq, and the United States (we went bankrupt fighting a war on a tactic) The USA overreacts when bad things happen on USAian soil, and we go after people who had nothing to do with the act.
LOL the terrorists made us do it. The terrorists made Bush invade Iraq and the terrorists made the "Intelligence" community make up a bunch of bullshit it's own people with intimate domain knowledge didn't even believe themselves as a pretext for war.
I do not want to get in any more wars. This is why I support the NSA / CIA / whatever spying on and killing anyone who would want to commit an act of terrorism.
The terrorists made us do it... kill them all and then we won't do stupid shit anymore. I promise. Never mind bush already looking for whatever pretext he could to get revenge for the attempt on his daddy. The terrorists MADE US DO IT.
But if you really think Snowden is some kind of hero, you should move to some country where they support heros and never spy.
What Snowden did was expose/confirm illegal activities conducted against everyone who has ever used a phone in this country. I'd be willing to entertain your bullshit about the NSA for a few milliseconds at least when someone from NSA goes to jail.
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Well said!
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Nope, he was the one entrusted with a security clearance. He is the one who signed the NDR. And he is the one who handed classified data on our intelligence gathering systems to individuals not cleared to receive it
"to individuals not cleared to receive it" aka "the press" aka "a proxy to the public".
He did exactly what you said, and not only does he deserve a pardon, he deserves a medal. There is simply no way the VAST majority of what he released shouldn't have been known by the public funding it; our internal surveillance, and even the extent to which we collaborate with other countries, and the extent to which we spy on allies...
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the vast majority of what he released was not for public release and has compromised many legitimate intelligence operations that we the people have tasked the intelligence community to engage in.
He signed the
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the public does not have any right to know our national secrets
That's some fine circular reasoning you've got going there.
If the government had been acting legally, it wouldn't have had any misbehaviour to keep secret. And declaring its illegal and undesirable activities to be secret absolutely does not deny the public the right to know about them.
. Just because we fund it does not mean we are entitled to know everything the government does. A government with no secrets cannot stand.
Followed by a straw man. Nobody is arguing that the government should have NO secrets. But it should not have had THESE secrets.
and has compromised many legitimate intelligence operations that we the people have tasked the intelligence community to engage in.
"we the people" asked for no such thing, and do not support MANY of these operations."
If a few cr
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I am kind of a Snowden supporter here...
If you report (and provide proof) of government corruption, overreach, and general malfeasance to the legitimate press; and the press sorts thorugh it, verifies it, and determines what is newsworthy and publishable... that is an important function of the press.
This part (government corruption/overreach) of what Snowden did makes him a national hero and a patriot. He deserves a statue and reverence from every American for it.
What this story is covering is NOT about American government corruption and overreach. It is about GCHQ corruption and overreach. Snowden had no business revealing such secrets that he got from the NSA. He is a traitor and a coward for running from the consequences of his actions.
Long story short, every
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What this story is covering is NOT about American government corruption and overreach. It is about GCHQ corruption and overreach.
And therefore what is the problem with it exactly?
Long story short, every government has the responsibility to spy on every other government
Every government has a responsibility to protects its national security, and that can involve spying on other governements. But it is an absurd waste of resources to spy on every member of every government everywhere all the time. Canada, for example, is not threatening the US. The UK is a longtime ally. The US should be keeping tabs on these countries and others, monitoring their policies, profiling key people, etc. But they don't need to hack their email a
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Sure, a place where journalists investigating corrupt politicians are regularly murdered. It's so common there's even a Wiki page for it [wikipedia.org]. Not so many whistleblowers East of the Dnieper, then.
So you know, why don't you go and get your fucking shoe shine box?
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He didn't expect to get stuck in Russia. Then again, at least he is mostly safe from the US there. They are unlikely to try kidnapping him or drone launched Hellfire missiles while Russia is watching.
It's hard to think of a much better place. US kidnappings have happened in Europe, sometimes thwarted by the local security services and sometimes not. Iceland might be good if security could be guaranteed.
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For fuck's sake what is wrong with you people? It's almost like you're being deliberately fucking stupid.
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I'm a full on Snowden supporter, but I don't think it's demonising him to point out that this isn't too big a deal.
I'm concerned that the debate about security servers has descended to the point where people are basically just arguing they shouldn't exist.
I profoundly disagree, I think they serve an important purpose, to me the problem is that they've completely overstepped those bounds in recent decades but that doesn't mean I believe everything they do is wrong.
I disagree with the bulk collection of data,
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Re: Is Snowden completely stupid? (Score:2)
Ho Ho Ho (Score:3, Insightful)
"is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework," and "is entirely compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights."
1: No one believes that.
2: You voted to leave the EU. Why even pretend at this point?
Re:Ho Ho Ho (Score:4, Informative)
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Also, May claims to have given up on plans to repeal the Human Rights Act, although I expect she will try to weaken it.
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Also, May claims to have given up on plans to repeal the Human Rights Act
Finally, some good news, though this isn't unexpected:
although I expect she will try to weaken it.
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My point is they're posturing for no reason. Everyone in Europe has written them off because they always have and always will do their own thing. They never even adopted the Euro for shit's sake. Why even pretend they're anything but the US's crazy uncle?
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Read it Carefully: It's probably true (Score:3)
2: It probably is compatible because the base is regarded as US Sovereign territory and what goes on there is technically not subject to British control similar to a foreign embassy. Hence it is compatible but not necessarily compliant.
In fact I grew up in Harrogate and have actually been on to the Menwith Hill base when I was a school kid for a party. They were extremely hospitable and even gave us Coca Cola imported from the US. At the time none of us British kids
"Compatible" (Score:3)
"is entirely compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights."
I like how they said "compatible" and not "compliant". How clever.
You could be concerned about this (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, you might want to be more concerned about Obama's drone program that has murdered countless civilians, and maybe a few terrorists.
Your choice, amigo.
Re:You could be concerned about this (Score:5, Insightful)
Suspected terrorist in the eyes of the NSA. Is who you are saying people should stay away from.
The program is the murder of known innocents and alleged/suspected terrorists. There is no trial, they are not terrorists.
These people are in their country, they are not murdering in the US. Many of them are murdered based on metadata only, so just by saying stuff and being in the "wrong" places (in your own country) might be enough to be murdered by the US.
How does one figure if your friend who talks bad shit about the US (after his cousin was bomb murdered in the market) is a suspected terrorist in the American eyes? He says the same stuff everyone does...
If you live in a country where everyone is Muslin and everyone should hate the US (because of the killings without war), how do you tell the difference between who is normal and who is not in the eyes of the NSA?
But the worst is that you are suggesting people should be afraid in their homes, in their countries, of what they say and who they talk to, because they might just explode. Inflicting this kind of fear is what some people call terrorism.
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Every year about million and a half die in traffic accidents on overcrowded ground roads in the world, much more badly wounded and mutilated. These are the figures of a WW3.
UAVs could deliver packages and documents in cities reducing ground traffic up to 50%, they also could transport cargo between cities, etc. The technology is there already to do it safely and efficiently. However as people hear the word "drone" they immediately think abo
Signal-to-noise? (Score:2)
>> using an array of antennae and U.S. government satellites to capture up to 335 million pieces of metadata in a 12-hour period.
Among those 335 million pieces of metadata, how many of them actually pertain to anything related to terrorism? My guess..less than .000001%.
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My guess..less than .000001%.
So that would be 3 pieces of terror related metadata in a 12 hour shift. Sounds about right although it may be an order of magnitude higher.
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>> using an array of antennae and U.S. government satellites to capture up to 335 million pieces of metadata in a 12-hour period.
Among those 335 million pieces of metadata, how many of them actually pertain to anything related to terrorism? My guess..less than .000001%.
Police believe a known terror suspect is at a football/baseball/soccer/quidditch game and scan the crowd looking for him, and eventually find him. Of the 50,000 fans in the stadium, they examined 49,999 innocent people to find the one they were looking for. Are you saying since only 0.002% of the data points examined pertained to the terror suspect, the police should be prohibited from looking through crowds for suspects?
It's like running a wireshark capture to watch connections to a server. Even though you
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49,999 invasions of privacy for one apprehended suspect. suspect probably didn't harm anywhere near 50k people. Even five persons would be exceptional. The numbers don't look good for you unless your value system is fucked up.
So you are saying police cannot look around to see if they see a suspect because they will almost certainly see a lot of non-suspects before they may see the suspect? They can't look at cars hunting for the robbery getaway vehicle because all those other innocent drivers on the public road would be having their privacy violated? So police must now walk and drive around blindfolded lest they "invade the privacy" of those out in public? If police are not allowed to look for suspects, or even watch for crimes
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Since it was the government that killed them, I would argue that is not entirely unreasonable.
Great job! (Score:1)
Yes but... (Score:1)
Are they hiring?