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Russians Seek Answers To Central Moscow GPS Anomaly (yahoo.com) 176

Posted by BeauHD from the searching-for-signal dept.
stevegee58 writes: Russians have been noticing that their GPS doesn't work in Moscow near the Kremlin. Everyone from taxi drivers to Pokemon Go players suddenly notice that they're transported 18 miles away at the airport when they near the Kremlin. While this may be an annoyance to the public it seems like a reasonable countermeasure to potential terrorist threats. Is it only a matter of time before other vulnerable sites such as the White House or the Capitol in Washington start doing the same? "A programmer for Russian internet firm Yandex, Grigory Bakunov, said Thursday his research showed a system for blocking GPS was located inside the Kremlin, the heavily guarded official residence of Russian President Vladimir Putin," reports Yahoo. "The first anomaly was recorded in June, according to Russian media reports, which have also suggested that the GPS interference comes and goes in a pattern. Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Thursday he did not know why the malfunction was occurring and admitted experiencing the problem himself when driving recently. Peskov redirected questions to Russia's Federal Guards Service, which is responsible for protecting the Kremlin and senior Russian officials."
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Russians Seek Answers To Central Moscow GPS Anomaly More

Russians Seek Answers To Central Moscow GPS Anomaly

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  • Bollocks (Score:4, Funny)

    by Hognoxious ( 631665 ) on Saturday October 22, 2016 @03:17AM (#53128693) Homepage Journal

    it seems like a reasonable countermeasure to potential terrorist threats.

    In conjunction with the fact that it isn't marked on any paper maps and is completely invisible, you mean?

    • Re:Bollocks (Score:5, Insightful)

      by willy_me ( 212994 ) on Saturday October 22, 2016 @03:37AM (#53128731)
      This is likely a defence against autonomous drones. One can pilot drones without GPS but autonomous operation requires a location reference. This will be ineffective against guided bombs or cruise missiles so it looks like Russia wants to protect themselves against other Russians.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        That would be fine if the self-guided drones and weapons only used GPS, they don't. Often they use a multitude of things, from GPS, to visual, to laser pinpointing, to other things we don't even know about.

        • That would be fine if the self-guided drones and weapons only used GPS, they don't. Often they use a multitude of things, from GPS, to visual, to laser pinpointing, to other things we don't even know about.

          It's not a perfect defense, but it will stop casual attackers using toy technology. On the other hand, the reason all the ATM skimmers come from Russia is that they spent a lot of money on mathematics education. If there's any hackers in the world ready to make their drones finish a journey on dead reckoning when the GPS goes funny, it's probably Russian ones.

          • I explain this to people all the time. Places that high cyber-crime participants also have low job opportunities. Former Eastern Block countries have some great "IT people" who could do great in a normal environment...but there are no "normal" jobs for them. So, they get hired by criminal organizations instead. Everyone's got to eat.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Megol ( 3135005 )

        Why only Russians? This improves security against all amateur-level drones etc. which can come from any nation state (and even non officially recognized actors such as IS).

      • I'd like to think that modern cruise missiles rely on more than just GPS for guidance...

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by amiga3D ( 567632 )

        I believe that most of the really sophisticated strategic weapons do not use GPS. They use inertial navigation with highly accurate and terribly expensive gyros that enable accuracy to within 30 feet or so at distances of thousands of miles. Only a few nations have such weapons however so this system is probably aimed at terrorists or some lesser opponent.

        • The bad news is that this stuff gets cheaper all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if hobbyist parts were usable for it these days. Not for a 2000 km range missile, perhaps, but...no, even that might actually work.

      • Also even a piloted drone requires some sort of signal for operation which is also likely vulnerable to blocking, as otherwise splat (or autonomous take over which would then be subject to the other anyway).

    • Re:Bollocks (Score:4, Insightful)

      by freeze128 ( 544774 ) on Saturday October 22, 2016 @04:58AM (#53128901)
      So instead of terrorists blowing up the Kremlin, and maybe killing a couple dozen high-ranking officals, the terrorists will be re-directed to Moscow's airport, where they can blow up hundreds of people. Good plan.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by CODiNE ( 27417 )

        That wouldn't fly a drone off to the actual airport. It may do several things.

        A drone with FCC style restrictions built in my immediately land itself instead of continuing into the protected zone as flying within range of an airport is banned.

        It might try to correct its course and head further away from the actual Kremlin trying to find it. Like the robot from the Asimov book that was running in circles trapped between 2 zones.

        It's extremely unlikely it could head to the airport from this, and most likely i

      • Directed? Directed how? Is there are clear line of spoofed GPS all the way to the airport? Do you think a drone is going to say, ooh actually the Kremlin is over there and I'll just fly there and bomb it without looking at myGPS again until I'm done. More likely you'll see a drone endlessly flying on circles just outside the Kremlin

      • Why not? History teaches us that the Nobles are extremly valuable and precious while the ÂÂeasants (very small "p") are expendable and lower than dogs. Even though in all practicality, the Nobles are overgrown, useless eater spoiled brats and bullies with a taste for blood who owe their entire lifestyle to the ÂÂeasants they shit upon, but don't tell anyone that.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by PJ6 ( 1151747 )

        So instead of terrorists blowing up the Kremlin, and maybe killing a couple dozen high-ranking officals, the terrorists will be re-directed to Moscow's airport, where they can blow up hundreds of people. Good plan.

        Wow, your spacial reasoning isn't very good, is it?

  • The West has been placing devices in Russia for years.
    "Russian 'spy rock' was genuine, former chief of staff admits"
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... [telegraph.co.uk]
    "... accepted that Britain did indeed plant a "spy rock" despite attempts by the then-prime minister to dismiss the story and denials of improper conduct by the Foreign Office."
    Britain admits 'fake rock' plot to spy on Russians
    https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
    A lot of spy devices are distance sensitive. So a good idea of the inner device location is
  • This is why I always felt JDAMs [wikipedia.org] were a bad idea in the long run because their INS is less accurate without GPS assistance and a discrepancy like this must really screw up the guidance if GPS assistance is switched on.

    • Right, because it's totally impossible to disregard one information source if it deviates beyond reasonable limits, and even if it was possible it would totally never occur to engineers or scientists.

  • It seems a bit odd to redirect attacks to an airport - I'd have expected it to point to the opposition's headquarters.

    • No attacks intended for the Kremlin won't go anywhere but traffic for the airport might go to the Kremlin...

    • Re:Diversion (Score:4, Funny)

      by Waffle Iron ( 339739 ) on Saturday October 22, 2016 @12:11PM (#53130105)

      Future headline:

      Russian leader Vladimir Putin was killed in a freak accident today while crossing the street next to the Kremlin. A fully autonomous prototype Tesla sedan had veered out of control and was speeding through central Moscow side streets at freeway speeds, and it tragically ran over Putin and several of his bodyguards. A defiant Elon Musk issued the following statement: "Our vehicle had nothing to do with this incident. We've analyzed the black box data, and this car was miles away at the airport at the time of the accident."

  • transported 18 miles away at the airport

    Broadcasting GPS data for the local airport seems like a good way to have an aeroplane land on top of you.

    I could completely understand if GPS didn't work at all, or gave a an unimportant location.

    • Broadcasting GPS data for the local airport seems like a good way to have an aeroplane land on top of you.

      Are you implying that planes rely exclusively on GPS to the point where an anomaly would suddenly cause them to change course and attempt to land on the roof of the Kremlin? I know $50 drones which are more intelligent than that.

      • Pilot error blamed for Syd flight failure [theaustralian.com.au]

        One approach trajectory for runway 34 in MEL flies directly over a runway at the much smaller Essendon airport and some large jets have come close to landing there because they follow their navigation, see a runway and go for it.

        People fuck up. In the dark with rain going they might see lights below, assume they are in the right spot and put their A340 down in Putin's bedroom.

        • You've linked to a subscriber only article but I'm going to assume that your article is about that Sydney flight which ended up on Melbourne instead of Asia because of a navigation error which had nothing to do with GPS

        • I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say? People following navigation incorrectly thinking that their navigation is in error and making a decision to land at a wrong airport has nothing to do with GPS.

          That's actually a prefect example of why this is a non issue. Do you think a pilot will blindly follow an incorrect GPS reading and smash into the side of the Kremlin because their navigation was right? Because that pilot error example you linked to showed the navigation was actually right and the pilot

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by arth1 ( 260657 )

      Broadcasting GPS data for the local airport seems like a good way to have an aeroplane land on top of you.

      So that's why Mathias Rust landed there!
      They must have jammed Loran-C too, back before GPS/GLONASS :p

  • It seems like this would be easy thwart by having the software software prevent sudden large movements (while GPS is active) that don't match the reading of an IMU. [wikipedia.org]

    Everything you need is in every smartphone, you just need basic programming knowledge to defeat these countermeasures.

    • Not only that but just like how the CCTV:s in the UK in the end helped the criminals to optimize their business this will in the end help the terrorists to optimize their business. Now they can build drones that fly around looking for these anomalies in order to map out all potential targets, many of which one would probably never be able to find otherwise.
  • Would that mean the Russians have an alternative working and secret GPS that only the top guns use (and military)?

  • This is meant for assassins and terrorists (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Very few military weapons depend solely on GPS (or GLONASS for that matter). It's been obvious for a while that satellite navigation and guidance systems were not going to survive any engagement with another military for very long. The Chinese [wikipedia.org] finalized that argument in 2007.

    Further, a Predator or other military drone isn't going to last 5 seconds above Moscow airspace. It would have to be a stand-off weapon or (god forbid) a ballistic missile. The area covered is very small by these standards and any o

  • Our old Minuteman III missiles were made before GPS, and don't rely on it for terminal guidance

    and in spite of your meddling , The Donald won't be getting his finger on the launch button any time soon

  • Is it really hard to figure out? (Score:3)

    by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Saturday October 22, 2016 @05:10AM (#53128923)
    Assuming the story to be true, the answer to the anomaly is pretty obvious. The USA is sending a message - fuck around with us and we can fuck around with you. Of course Russia has GLONASS but I bet a lot of devices don't use it or prefer GPs.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AC-x ( 735297 )

      The most plausible explanation I've heard so far is it's to break GPS triggered car bombs,

    • Most recent phones support GLONASS. Even an older device like the Nexus 5 does so. You can use an app like GPS Test (by Chartcross, for Android) to see them. They're the higher numbered satellite (60s, 70s). The support is built into the GPS integrated receiver, from Qualcomm and others.

      • Most recent phones support GLONASS. Even an older device like the Nexus 5 does so. You can use an app like GPS Test (by Chartcross, for Android) to see them. They're the higher numbered satellite (60s, 70s). The support is built into the GPS integrated receiver, from Qualcomm and others.

        And not just that, but most drones' GPS receivers support GLONASS as well. By far the most common GPS chipset is the NEO6,7,8M. NEO6M is the only of these which doesn't support GLONASS and it's also by far the most rare, most common is NEO7M and NEO8M is most common for new sales since the price is virtually identical to the 7M.

    • Re:Is it really hard to figure out? (Score:4, Informative)

      by jaa101 ( 627731 ) on Saturday October 22, 2016 @07:05AM (#53129131)

      GPS coverage can't be disabled or modified by the GPS satellites selectively over such a small area as the Kremlin. The satellites are essentially just sending the time and their location continuously and their antennas aren't very directional. Anything they did that affected accuracy at the Kremlin would have to affect a wide surrounding area as well. Any localised effect as described has to be local jamming which almost certainly means official Russian involvement.

      • Wouldn't it be a simple matter of putting GPS transmitters in the area, drowning out the weak satellite signals, broadcasting incorrect information?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jaa101 ( 627731 )

          It wouldn't be exactly simple but it would be possible. The main issue would be that GPS transmitters near the Kremlin that were installed by anyone other than the Russian authorities would be very quickly noticed by them and would be relatively easily located. Since the anomalies appear to have been present for a long period of time it's a pretty safe bet that they're being caused by the Russian authorities.

          • I didn't think it was really a question that it was the state.

            Take a transmitter that would go in a GLONASS satellite, hook it up to an antenna, and plug it in somewhere. Upload slightly incorrect information. Done. It's not really 'spoofing' the GPS system, because it *is* the GPS system.

  • It makes sense to send terrorist threats from the Kremlin to the airport where they become a photo op and a chance to show strong leadership. Why do you think other politicians want it?

  • In an instance of war or a strategic hit precision guided bombing sequence requires gps. If there is no gps they will have to use laser guidance or some other less 'fire and forget' tracking method. Bomb makers knew this day was coming Guided-Bomb Makers Anticipate GPS Jammers http://www.defensenews.com/sto... [defensenews.com]

    • If there were only backup systems which could detect changes in motion by measuring acceleration regardless of what nonsensical GPS data says and maybe a secondary device which measures angular changes, and if the path since the last good data set could be extrapolated based on these hypothetical devices. For a thought exercise let's call the acceleration detector an "accelerometer" and the angular detector a "gyroscope." It's such a shame that those devices do not exist and are not already included in crui

  • For those with Androids, by default, WiFi access point known locations supersede GPS **Even when WiFi is turned off** (the asterisk-encapsulated part can be disabled, but it's pretty difficult, and it annoys you about it all the time when you do).

    If the complaining taxi drivers are using auto manufacturer GPSes, then I guess that's not the problem. But if they are using Androids, it could be. And for Pokemon Go users, it certainly would be consistent.

    I turn off this feature mostly because it's very annoyi

    • WiFi does not supersede GPS on Android. It only supersedes GPS if the required GPS accuracy is not achievable. I.e. this may be a problem if you're INSIDE the Kremlin and not near any windows, and someone in the Kremlin decided to re-purpose a WiFi device from the local airport, ... and keep the airport's SSID.

      Sorry there's just so much wrong with this theory.

  • Massive misunderstanding (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    It is strange to see many posters think that GPS is an american something. GPS is a shorthand for the generic term "Global Positioning System".

    The american implementation is called NAVSTAR,
    The soviet (later russian) implementation is called Glonass,
    The European Union has Galileo and
    The chinese system is called COMPASS
    (but most call it Bei-dou, lit. art of wayfinding, in order not to confuse it with "Compass Call" which is an american military satellite jamming aircraft).

    All of these are Global Positioning S

  • Eh, you say jamming signal I say homing beacon.

  • Render the GPS on someone's cellphone useless if they're, unbeknownst to the poor phone user, near a location that the government has decided shouldn't be found via GPS. What happens to the poor soul who needs to call 9-1-1 after gettiing in a nasty car accident or to report a crime and the EMS service or police can't find them because GPS indicates they're miles away from the true location? Short: answer: there a good chance that, if they're seriously injured, they'll probably die. Jeebus, this is that da

  • The summary and the article it links to both say GPS, but there is no other information on which system and devices are showing the errors. Thing is, there are a handful of satellite navigation systems in use these days. The EU, India and China all have their own systems. But the Russians have their own system as well. GPS is a common term for satellite navigation, especially in Western media. Thus; I think there is room to ask if it is actually the American GPS doing this, or if it is the Russians own syst

  • I am surprised that no one has put in the obligatory "in Soviet Russia, GPS gets directions from you" comment yet. How can you not quote Yakov Smirnoff?

  • While this may be an annoyance to the public it seems like a reasonable countermeasure to potential terrorist threats.

    Not being able to find the Kremlin would require navigation of a truly mind-bogglingly low standard. I've walked around the thing (having several hours to kill in Moscow, between flying in to one of the internal airports and out of one of the external airports) and it took a solid 3 hours. Detouring, it must be said, to find a toilet and to buy a matrioshka which said rude things about Clint

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