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Canada Education IT

Canadian Millennials Struggle As College Degrees Don't Guarantee Jobs (www.cbc.ca) 632

"CBC News is reporting on how millennials are finding that education only guarantees debt, not a stable job. Not even in STEM," writes Slashdot reader BarbaraHudson, adding "The irony -- one of the teachers touting the values of further education is herself part of the gig economy." An anonymous reader summarizes the article, which reports that 33% of the engineers in Ontario are now underemployed. "I actually thought that coming out of school I would be a commodity and someone would want me," said one 21-year-old mechanical engineering graduate. "But instead, I got hit with a wall of being not wanted whatsoever in the industry." He's applied for 250 engineering jobs, resulting in four interviews, but no job offer, and he's since broadened his job search to the deli counter at the local grocery store, because "It's a job."

"More than 12% of Canadians between the ages of 15 and 24 are unemployed," reports CBC News, "and more than a quarter are underemployed, meaning they have degrees but end up in jobs that don't require them. The latest numbers from Statistics Canada show that the unemployment rate for 15-to-24-year-olds is almost twice that of the general population... A 2014 Canadian Teachers' Federation report found nearly a quarter of Canada's youth are either unemployed, working less than they want or have given up looking for work entirely."

The article also points out that the number of students enrolled in Canadian universities has more than doubled since 1980, from 800,000 to over two million.
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Canadian Millennials Struggle As College Degrees Don't Guarantee Jobs

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  • The boomers say: "Sorry, eh".

    • Re: FRost (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dougdonovan ( 646766 ) <dougdonovan@msn.com> on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:36PM (#54025943) Journal
      sorry but education takes a back seat to either who you know or who you are sleeping with or both. the hiring managers dont want to hire you if you are smarter than they are but we've known this for over 23 years.
      • Re: FRost (Score:4, Insightful)

        by ArmoredDragon ( 3450605 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @10:26PM (#54026197)

        I think it mostly depends on what your degree is in. I'm a very recent graduate (May 2014) and I haven't had any difficulty finding work, and in fact have already had two major bumps in salary since starting. What I did, and what I think more people would benefit from, is to just play the job market like an economist would: Find a career field where the demand for workers exceeds the supply, and then do that. From there, expansion comes naturally (i.e. transferable skills, promotion, etc.) That said, if you go for a degree like art history or some crap that there's no actual demand for, then it's your own damn fault if you come out of school with craploads of debt and nothing to show for it.

        Sure, there's something to be said for doing what you like to do, but not everybody wants what you like doing, nor should there be any societal expectation that one should just be able to make ends meet by doing anything they want. (Otherwise, watching pornography should be a high paying job.)

        From where I sit, I do observe that certain jobs that people traditionally associate with being high skilled and high paying aren't necessarily high paying because the supply is much higher than the actual economic demand. This would include lawyers of basically all stripes, and certain kinds of engineers (namely, mechanical and aeronautical engineers.)

        • Re: FRost (Score:5, Insightful)

          by BarbaraHudson ( 3785311 ) <barbarahudson@NosPAm.gmail.com> on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:06PM (#54026401) Journal
          The first guy in the story went for an engineering degree. With all the uproar about supposed shortages in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) that are justifying the importation of hundreds of thousands of foreign STEM workers, he should be a shoe-in. Except, of course, that there is no STEM shortage. It's just an excuse to outsource jobs to cheaper countries.

          You can't compete with countries such as India, where half the population don't have a toilet and the average wage is $10/day.

          • Re: FRost (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Yeah, but he went for an engineering degree "because he thought it would land him a job". Interviewers see right through that...his lack of skills outside general classes. If he was really into engineering, he'd be in clubs, he'd have projects outside of the class to point to.

            In my classes there were engineers, and there were people trying to pass the classes. There is a difference.

            If you want to succeed in STEM, it has to be your passion.

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by iotaborg ( 167569 )

              I agree; notice in the article, they only say something about his high school grades. Not his college. Maybe he passed with a 2.0 GPA, and has no real skills. All the successful engineers I know were passionate about the subject, did things outside of school, had internships, etc.

              • I agree; notice in the article, they only say something about his high school grades. Not his college. Maybe he passed with a 2.0 GPA, and has no real skills.

                Here are some links about him...

                • his LinkedIn [linkedin.com]
                • Ranking [4icu.org] of University of Guelph (surprise, at 17th)
                • Review [studentsreview.com] of the school
            • I'd also point out that he sent out 250 resumés and ended up with 4 interviews.

              I'll rashly assume that he sat down, came up with a resumé, made 250 copies, and sent them out to anybody who had a job for a "Mechanical Engineer," whether he was qualified or not. You need to consider the job and whether your qualifications match. If they do, your resumé better show exactly how you'd be a great match for the position. If you make me search your resumé to try to figure out whether

              • Re: FRost (Score:5, Informative)

                by silentcoder ( 1241496 ) on Monday March 13, 2017 @08:48AM (#54028201)

                The single most valuable thing I ever read in my life was a book on "How to write a great cover letter" (that may or may not have been the title - it was a long time ago).

                But I remembered the advice in the book, and it has served me well. A great cover letter is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than a great CV, because that one paragraph is what determines whose CV's get read at all.

                These days - the "cover letter' is the wording of the e-mail you attach your CV to. That's where you determine if the person whose job it is to filter out the time-wasters (most likely a professional head-hunter these days) will bother with your CV at all.

                Once you have enough professional experience that stops mattering, recruiters start coming after you - and then you don't need to convince the company to read your CV anymore, the recruiters do that for you. But starting out - learn to write a good cover letter. In a few world tell them why you want the job, why you believe you'll be good at it and what makes you think you'll be a good fit for the company. Never go over one paragraph. Don't go into detail (that's what the CV is for). Just - very quickly - sell yourself as worth the time to read, by saying why you are excited to be applying.

                Get the cover letter right - and you've won 90% of the battle - now you are only competing with the other 10% of people who got the cover letter right.

            • Yeah, but he went for an engineering degree "because he thought it would land him a job". Interviewers see right through that...his lack of skills outside general classes. If he was really into engineering, he'd be in clubs, he'd have projects outside of the class to point to.

              In my classes there were engineers, and there were people trying to pass the classes. There is a difference.

              If you want to succeed in STEM, it has to be your passion.

              It's interesting that Armored Dragon advocated finding out where there is a shortage of labor and studying that field so as to be employable. He (I assume Armored Dragon is male, but who knows) contrasts that with just choosing something you like. Then you say that if you are not passionate about your field, you won't be successful. These are contradictory pieces of advice, though I'm not saying either of you are wrong. It just seems there are a lucky few who have a genuine interest in lucrative fields.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by nastyphil ( 111738 )

          I have a masters degree in Art History and 20 years as an IT architect. You'd be surprised at the lessons which cross over from any field of advanced study.

      • by jcr ( 53032 )

        the hiring managers dont want to hire you if you are smarter than they are

        Whenever I hire someone, I'm trying to find people smarter than I am.

        -jcr

  • It may be what schools sell, even the public colleges, but a degree has never guaranteed a job. Surprise!

    • Governments need to promote the right mix of university, trade school, and unskilled workers. Every economy needs a mix of these, no economy needs everyone to have a college degree. If too many people end up with degrees the result is heavy debt load and under employment for the excess workers. In general, more people need to choose the trade school route. You can earn some pretty good money as a plumber, electrician or mechanic and you won't have a giant pile of debt. A lot of the trade people I know earn

    • Pretty much this. A college education has always been a bit of a leg up, if you will, but human excellence has never been defined exclusively by the opportunistic availability of higher education predicated upon scholastic success or familial opportunity.

      Sometimes, adversity and economic obstacles are a better cull.

    • by raymorris ( 2726007 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:51PM (#54026577) Journal

      It doesn't guarantee a job, and it doesn't guarantee debt either. The summary says "education only guarantees debt, not a stable job." That's compete bullocks. Debt is 100% optional. Common, but entirely optional. I'll graduate with more money in the bank than when I started school.

      I chose a state school in Texas. Actually it's state school in many states - Western Governor's University was started by 19 state governors. I originally chose WGU because a) I could do the work on my own schedule - there are no scheduled class times and b) it's cheap, $6000 / year, minus $1500 tax credit = $4500 / year. After I started I found out that it's even better than that. For many courses, the final exam is an industry certification such as Cisco CCNA. Two years into school, my certifications led to a job making almost twice as much as I was making when I started school.

      My employer reimbursed $1500 / year of tuition, so after the tax credit my out-of-pocket cost for school is $1,500 / year meanwhile my income has already increased by $50,000 / year, so the day I graduate I'll have a lot more money than I did the day I started school.

      I could have actually gotten the first year or so free, or for about $500. What you can do is study the material, such as CCNA material, before enrolling. You can watch YouTube courses, get books from eBay, etc. Then enroll after you've studied and get a year of credits in your first few weeks by taking the exams. In fact, for industry exams like CCNA you can take the exams before enrolling and WGU will give you credit for the course - you've already passed the final exam.

      The other good surprise with WGU is that I can do most of my school work 10 minutes at a time, when I have nothing better to do for a few minutes. I study while I'm on the toilet or whatever. 10 minutes per day, three times a day, seven days per week will cover a good portion of the material. In other words - I get my degree by spending half as much time on Slashdot as I used to. :)

      I may get my masters degree from Harvard Extension. That would cost me $20K, but I'd end up with a Harvard Master's degree. A master's from Harvard may increase my income by $10K-$20K per year, meaning it would pay for itself in just 1-2 years.
      https://www.extension.harvard.... [harvard.edu]

  • by sethstorm ( 512897 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:30PM (#54025913) Homepage

    Sandro Perruzza, the chief executive officer at the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers (OSPE), is familiar with graduates like McCrave.

            "He could have applied for co-ops or apprenticeships while he was at school — even if it delayed his graduation," Perruzza said. "We strongly advocate co-ops. The fact is because of the sheer number of applicants these days, the ones who get the jobs have some kind of experience."

    But what help can that be right now? That just smacks of arrogance on Mr. Perruzza's part.

    • by jeff4747 ( 256583 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:47PM (#54026009)

      The goal is to make it the graduate's fault somehow. Before it was "you didn't get a degree" as the excuse. Now that he's got a degree, it's "you didn't do it right".

      Otherwise, the constant mantra of "A degree is a pathway to prosperity" would have to be re-evaluated. And there's a lot of money relying on no one questioning that.

    • But what help can that be right now?

      Oh, that's really easy! As a Canadian, he can apply as an H-1B to work in the US for a couple of years to get some experience there. US folks can do the same by applying for the Canadian H-1B thingy.

      It will be H-1Bs, all the way down.

      Although, both Canadian and US employees will be confused when they see this new crop of H-1Bs . . . they look just "too" normal . . .

      • As a Canadian, he can apply as an H-1B to work in the US for a couple of years to get some experience there. US folks can do the same by applying for the Canadian H-1B thingy.

        Canadians in his situation don't need to get an H1-B to work in the USA. They can get a work permit far more easily through Trade NAFTA. For now. Stay tuned to see what The Orange One does about that.

        There is a reciprocal arrangement in NAFTA for STEM-degreed Americans to work in Canada temporarily.

    • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:57PM (#54026055)

      Sandro Perruzza, the chief executive officer at the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers (OSPE), is familiar with graduates like McCrave.

      "He could have applied for co-ops or apprenticeships while he was at school — even if it delayed his graduation," Perruzza said. "We strongly advocate co-ops. The fact is because of the sheer number of applicants these days, the ones who get the jobs have some kind of experience."

      But what help can that be right now? That just smacks of arrogance on Mr. Perruzza's part.

      Its helpful to those still in school, a warning not to make the same mistake. You get out of school what you put into it. If you are there to get your "ticket punched' expect problems like this. If you are there to truly learn as much as you can then you will be doing something beyond merely attending classes. Some sort of side project (student entrepreneurial competitions, independent study/research, etc) or some sort of practical experience (internships, co-op ed, part-time job, etc).

  • This article seems to be specific to Canada, but I think the same is true everywhere, especially the U.S. Is there anywhere where it's different?
  • by Crashmarik ( 635988 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:39PM (#54025959)

    IEEE The STEM Crisis is a myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo... [ieee.org]

    They have an entire issue devoted to the topic and a static discussion

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/stati... [ieee.org]

    The only shortage of degreed professionals are MD's and Lawyers and that's because their numbers are controlled and kept artificially low.

    Somebody at a school trying to sell you a degree, make sure they back it up with a job guarantee, or at least a track record that you can sue them over.

    • their numbers are controlled and kept artificially low.

      [Citation Needed]

      My wife is an MD. There are unfilled vacancies every single year in residency programs. To the point that they are getting FMG (Foreign Medical Graduates) to fill those spots and they still have a shortage.

      • https://www.forbes.com/2009/08... [forbes.com]

        Oh OK i'll play with the passive aggressive tar baby, Forbes do ? Oh and the reason you don't have the numbers for residencies is they aren't being produced by med schools.

        • I'm going to need to see her sources because off the bat her numbers are off.

          And even the poorest in specializations like radiology and surgery routinely rake in around $400,000 annually.

          No. Just no. They do not 'routinely' rake that in. Even in super rural areas you're not getting close to that for most specialties.

          Lets see Reason Foundation.

          The Reason Foundation is an American libertarian think tank founded in 1978.

          Ah yes, all regulation bad. EPA is running the USA. You're more than welcome to go to an unlicensed snake charmer to get fixed.

          Crashmarik - passive aggressive tar baby,

          Go back to Voat.

  • by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:42PM (#54025981)

    There was a recession when I hit the workforce after university. It was tough getting a job. REALLY tough. So I did manual labour for a few years before I finally got into my chosen career's industry. This happens. In retrospect, even fresh out of school I wasn't really ready. Too many expectations beyond what my worth as an employee could justify.

    Now I'm seeing more or less the same situation with the current generation. The world doesn't owe you shit, life doesn't have to be fair, and no matter how recent your education, chances are there's a grumpy asshole who is of more practical use to an employer because they can handle social interactions in a workplace and understand the way work life works, with enough experience (in precisely what their employer requires!) to more than raise their net value above an inexperienced applicants'.

    The problem isn't underemployment of the youth (suck it up, Buttercup, that's how almost everyone starts while they're learning all the things schools don't teach), the problem is the jobs where they can get their real world experience are drying up and it's only going to get worse.

    However, as long as there are jobs to be done by humans and humans aren't immortal, eventually older people retire, lose it, or die off and have to be replaced. Hiring will happen. If kids aren't getting hired, it's because there are less jobs overall required to maintain our currently desired economic productivity.

    That's a sociopolitical issue to be resolved not by minimum wage hikes or make-work programs, but by legislating shorter standard work weeks and nationalizing health benefits. Make it affordable for employers to hire more people to do the work, make it less life-affecting for people to work less.

    • by Nemyst ( 1383049 )

      chances are there's a grumpy asshole who is of more practical use to an employer because they can handle social interactions in a workplace and understand the way work life works, with enough experience (in precisely what their employer requires!) to more than raise their net value above an inexperienced applicants'.

      That's funny considering the volume of news stories on Slashdot about employment problems for older people because they tend to be more expensive and less... malleable than younger workers. So which is it?

      • It depends very much on your specific industry. In mine (architectural engineering), there is currently a dearth of qualified people. Part of that is the fact that the people that excel are more "renaissance" people, with talent in many different areas, but with a job in a specific subset. The "exceptional" people will always find work, as they can develop business, manage projects, engineer, and mentor people all at the same time. The ones that are only engineers will have a harder time.
    • There was a recession when I hit the workforce after university. It was tough getting a job. REALLY tough. So I did manual labour for a few years before I finally got into my chosen career's industry. This happens. In retrospect, even fresh out of school I wasn't really ready. Too many expectations beyond what my worth as an employee could justify.

      You don't happen to mention what your degree was in. Was it in a Liberal Art's degree, or something in STEM? The problem is, the education industry has sold people a line of shit. People have the perception that any degree should earn them 6 figures. There are only so many Mythology, Gender Studies, etc.. degrees which are useful to society. Journalism, Video editing, and blogging are a flooded market, PoliSci won't get you far unless you continue to Law School, and the majority don't. People don't,

    • by jeff4747 ( 256583 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @10:33PM (#54026233)

      The US makes about 70,000 more STEM graduates every year than STEM jobs are created every year. After you account for retirement of older workers.

      (Obviously Canada won't be identical, but the countries are usually similar)

      So how exactly are they supposed to find a STEM job when we get about 70,000 further in the hole every year?

      That's a sociopolitical issue to be resolved not by minimum wage hikes or make-work programs, but by legislating shorter standard work weeks and nationalizing health benefits

      A shorter standard work week is a make-work program.
      Nationalizing health benefits would result in large job losses, as health insurance companies would disappear.
      (and just to be complete, make-work programs and a higher minimum wage produce economic growth through increasing the velocity of money. The people receiving the benefits spend the money. Whether or not that leads to inflation depends on the capacity of people from whom they are buying.)

      • The US makes about 70,000 more STEM graduates every year

        Can we all stop with this STEM bullshit acronym? STEM bundles together actuaries, nuclear physicists, elevator technicians and old farts who maintain legacy RPG code. It's about as accurate as an astrological sign.

        • Can we all stop with this STEM bullshit acronym?

          Not when there's an enormous number of people running around shouting about the "STEM shortage".

          There's a giant pile of money at stake, and currently it's being taken by the people claiming they can fix this shortage. Fragmenting the discussion into the myriad of degrees that fit under STEM mean you're going to give them cover to continue to suck up the money. "Sure, nuclear physicists can't find jobs, but there's a shortage of elevator technicians now!....and now it's actuaries....and now it's legacy cod

    • Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:04PM (#54026389)
      Just wrong. Saying the world doesn't owe you shit is something the haves say to assuage their conscience.

      Old people aren't retiring. They can't. They were sold a bill of goods in the form of 401k/IRA/whatever your local flavor is and they can't afford it. That's because a) those programs were designed by the wealthy and don't work for middle class and b) everytime the economy crashes (every 10 years like clockwork after we repeal the regulations that were passed the last time it tanked) all your savings get wiped out.

      I'll take most of your last two (shorter hours & nationalized benefits) but minimum wage is a necessity. It's _never_ affordable to hire employees if you ask employers. If you let them they'll make us all slaves and use the same rationalizations you did at the start of your rant to excuse it (suck it up, buttercup).
    • Many tasks in engineering that were suitable for entry-level people have been automated. As a result, often we see less experienced younger people getting hired because they "know the software" and they end up performing tasks that are beyond their skill and knowledge level. There is an experience gap and much less mentoring as well.
    • Sounds familiar.

      1981 - Two years before I graduate from Electrical Engineering - Big recruiting fair on campus - Most of the grad class has a job offer by end of January. Some kids put downpayment on houses or cars.

      1983 - The year I graduate - Huge Recession - Nobody is hiring - No recruiting fair - 3 of 200 kids in my EE class have jobs by graduation. I ended up with a not quite engineering job that was a repeat of my previous summer job. It took over a year before most of my class found jo

  • by Khan ( 19367 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:45PM (#54025995)

    ...are death and taxes. Hell, as a Gen X-er even waaaaaay back in the early 80's, you were never guaranteed any kind of job whatsoever. You're best bet was to find summer work \ apprenticeships to at least have SOME real world experience after school. And if you did find something, it's going to be at the bottom. The only people who start higher up are the wealthy with their parents connections from Ivy league schools and what not.

  • Damn Statistics (Score:5, Insightful)

    by youngone ( 975102 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @09:49PM (#54026021)
    Am I the only one here who thinks the age range they've used is odd?

    Of course 15 - 24 years olds will be over represented in unemployment statistics.

    The lower age range there are going to be 15, 16, 17 and 18 year olds who are not in school or training of some kind, and who will employ them?

    I have checked and school is compulsory until 16 in Canada, so any 15 year old not in school probably has some other problems in their life, making employment even less likely.

    • There is a fairly easy source of income for teenagers who want to get a head start in life. Fairly easy to get a job in a fast food restaurant. Until they get automated, of course.
    • Am I the only one here who thinks the age range they've used is odd?

      Of course 15 - 24 years olds will be over represented in unemployment statistics.

      The lower age range there are going to be 15, 16, 17 and 18 year olds who are not in school or training of some kind, and who will employ them?

      I have checked and school is compulsory until 16 in Canada, so any 15 year old not in school probably has some other problems in their life, making employment even less likely.

      Thank you.

      I came here to say the same thing, and spotted your post. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

      That's not to say there isn't still a problem after excluding 16-and-under age ranges. As usual with these sorts of things, the whole 'truth' lies somewhere in the middle of both sides' positions/views which mainly consist of soundbite/vidclip-friendly emotion-based arguments designed to produce knee-jerk reactions, rather than logic-based arguments with factual/contextua/intellectual accuracy and honesty.

      Str

      • It's perfectly legal for students under 16 to work after school or on weekends. What sort of fucktard are you to think otherwise?

        Read the story. People who have been teaching university for 19 years are still on 4-month contract gigs - 19 years of having to have their teaching contract renewed for another 4 months. This is not an "entitled millennials" problem. And I haven't encountered much in the way of the so-called "entitled millennials" - just older assholes with an "I got mine Jack so up yours" atti

  • So it's kind of obvious to the most casual observer that those degree fields are saturated.

    I have a question:

    What jobs are NOT filled up?

    It's a serious query.

    What degrees should students be pursuing?

    • The ones where wages are consistently going up faster than everything else.

      That isn't Computer Science or anything else in the Information Technology field. In fact, it's pretty much none of the fields that are most commonly labeled as "STEM".

      As far as I can tell, that leaves Hedge Fund Manager and similar as the "NOT filled up" degree fields.

    • Skilled Trades.

      • by Shados ( 741919 )

        This. Everyone is told to go to college. That "any degree" is better than no degree. So you have saturation of graduates (many not even really all that good, between shitty colleges lowering standards, cheating, etc). And people are told that anything but a desk job means you failed at life.

        Ive recently went through a bunch of major renovation projects. Finding good trades people is impossible. Anyone available sucks. Anyone with good recommendation is booked for months and charge whatever they want.

        • Ive recently went through a bunch of major renovation projects. Finding good trades people is impossible. Anyone available sucks. Anyone with good recommendation is booked for months and charge whatever they want.

          You might want to think about this type of comment a bit more next time, as it can come across as quite condescending. One of the main points the article makes is that the older people have had it generally good in the past for employment/standard of living, etc. and the younger generations are being screwed by the older ones. In the comment above I read it as saying that the younger generation should be there to service you.

          Painters don't get payed much of a wage for what is hard work if you've ever tried

  • by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @10:05PM (#54026087) Journal
    It's not surprising, colleges have been weakening their standards for graduates for a generation. For example, you can get an English degree without ever reading Shakespeare [professorbainbridge.com]. You can't even find a rhetoric class at many universities these days, and if you want public speaking experience you're better off at toastmasters (but that was once a common requirement). Foreign language and math requirements are dropping as well. In computer science, you can graduate with a degree without ever understanding how a computer works. In some cases, I've seen CS graduates who didn't feel comfortable programming. These are problems.

    Then there is grade inflation [insidehighered.com]. Which is fine if it corresponded to an increase in the skill level of graduates, but it doesn't. Because of the way student evaluations work, a professor who pushes students to work harder will end up with bad ratings. Too much homework? Bad rating. Hard tests? Bad rating. Whereas the clown teacher is entertaining, and gets a raise. Over time, there is evolutionary pressure downwards.

    Then of course, students want to have fun in college. If I were designing a college, it would be like a monastery. Not many people would enjoy that, I admit. However, it encourages the universities to build new facilities, rock climbing gyms and saunas and such [bestcollegereviews.org]. Which aren't necessarily bad, but you can see these universities are not competing on the quality of their academics.
    • Not at all schools.

      90%+ of all grads from www.oit.edu get full time jobs within 6 months.

    • by lucm ( 889690 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:06PM (#54026395)

      Because of the way student evaluations work, a professor who pushes students to work harder will end up with bad ratings. Too much homework? Bad rating. Hard tests? Bad rating. Whereas the clown teacher is entertaining, and gets a raise.

      But that's how life works now. Have you ever watched a TED talk? Someone goes on stage and tries to deliver nuggets of wisdom in clever, quotable sentences, supported by inspiring infographics. A shallow message of 18 minutes that gets even shallower as cliche statements get tweeted and retweeted, down to the point where they end up on motivational gifs posted on Facebook by overweight single moms during the commercials in Grey's Anatomy.

      You want a snapshot of what the world has come to? Go on medium.com and read anything written by James Altucher. Extreme shallowness hidden behind pseudo-motivational babbling.

      The problem is not the schools. The problem is the society that led to students yelping their teachers. Next time you Like a "if you exercise your idea muscle by writing ten ideas a day you WILL have a great idea" or some other Altucherism on Facebook, remember that you're contributing to this descent into meaninglessness.

      • Go on medium.com and read anything written by James Altucher. Extreme shallowness hidden behind pseudo-motivational babbling.

        Wow you're right, he is good. Now I'm going to have to go watch some JP Sears to clean my soul.

    • is a bad idea. You're dealing with young people with all the wants and needs of an adult but none of the earning potential. People forget that for thousands of years you were pretty much living your adult life by 16-18. Your asking those folks to put everything on hold for another 4 years with the promise of someday making a good living (and not a very firm promise, I might add). That's too much, and you're being unreasonable and flippant by asking for it.

      We should support kids in college with a decent
      • I'm not really sure what you're criticizing. I've never met anyone who lived in a monastery who regretted it (although I know some people have), it's largely an enjoyable experience (I'm thinking zen here, not Opus Dei: no body mortification or what-not).
    • Caused by teachers' unions or school administrative types?
  • Huge college tuition were made possible by student debt, and student debt was made possible because graduate student could find a paying job to pay the debt.

    Now if they get unemployed after college, the bubble will burst. And unlike subprime bubble burst, banks will not even have a house to seize to mitigate the loss.

  • by AHuxley ( 892839 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @10:37PM (#54026257) Journal
    Go to a good private school that educates all its students to a good standard. Your parents been able to pay reduces the amount of people able to get the same standard of quality education. Learn how to study and get ready for university.
    Go to university based on merit given your quality of education. Make friends who will be in the same profession.
    That further reduces the amount of completion per generation over later decades.

    Ensure no other nation can send experts to Canada without passing the very same Canadian exams. All the Canadian exams that apply to your profession.
    You don't have a "job", your a professional in Canada, an expert with standards and a duty of care. Your signature as an expert is worth a lot.
    Don't give that unique ability away to people who are not Canadian.

    As a professional you will face few other Canadians who could access quality education needed to pass the same exams or any experts from other nations.
    Stop any equivalency for people outside Canada. Make them all sit Canadian exams if they want a profession in Canada.
    Got given Canadian citizenship and want to keep your other nations education? Canadian exam time.
    Such measures will quickly block all unexpected competition from people outside Canada or random people new to Canada.

    The final step is to prevent limited jobs been given to more people per year in Canada.
    Make your Canadian exams really hard. Too hard for people without years of study skills and a nice environment to study in to have any hope of passing.
    A university will then only be able to pass the best of the best and no influx of low quality graduates a decade later will cause wages to drop.

    Protect your profession with professional standards and exams. Learn for other nations and how they protect their medial experts, pilots, lawyers, plumbers, electricians. They have standards, exams, tests and certificates for most "jobs". Years of needed study and training ensure few can get the same "job".
    No work unless you have done a few years of university or expensive technical education in Canada and passed to Canadian standards. Add some French language tests too.
    No workers from other nations to replace local experts or people who have passed their tests and have a trade in Canada.
    Weed out any workers who snuck in and tried to hide with fake credentials.
    The work force will correct itself and wages will reflect the expert skills you have that other people in Canada need.
    If you want a profession, you have to lobby every year to keep others from flooding your profession offering low wages.
    Hard exams, language skills (French and English as used in Canada), the cost of education can exclude vast numbers competing workers. Add in insurance, bond and license that need a real background in Canada. If that fails, national security and criminal background investigations. Ensure that no person outside or new to Canada can pass the national security and criminal background investigation due to their nation not having the/any correct paperwork.

    The final issue is ever more Canadian graduates passing university as tests are made more easy. Make schooling more hard so they never get to university or will not pass if they get into university.
    With competition removed for decades your professional wage will improve.
  • I'd say this has very little to do with bubble talk or jobs not existing and everything to do with the following things:

    * Where you decided to go to school in relation to the 'quality' of the program

    * The quality of the faculty, staff, program and curriculum in terms of a mixture of academic and real world exposure

    * If you, in terms of skills and potential, are even worth a damn to any future employer

    I see and hear this shit all. the. time. in the computer science, information systems (which I reside in)

  • by ErichTheRed ( 39327 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:38PM (#54026529)

    I'm surprised that this issue isn't limited to the US. Canada's pretty much my #1 relocation destination if I had to pick another country -- hopefully they're not going fully down the "USA Lite" road the way the UK seems to be. The people are friendly and the climate is only going to get better as the temps start getting uncomfortably high further south.

    Lots of people love to share anecdotal evidence of "lazy Millenials" studying Underwater Gender Studies and generally being unemployable. Having graduated eons ago in 1997, I can say it's legitimately different now than it was. Back then, even the Comparative Literature and Classics people were at least getting interviews. It was still the case that graduating with a bachelors' degree in anything was the entry ticket to any sort of corporate job. Employers knew they were getting raw material and trained them. Roll things back another 20 years and employers were training people straight out of high school. My wife works for a company that did this and just got taken over by MBAs -- there are a ton of people who only have a high school degree with 25+ years experience in senior positions, who are getting kicked out now, having never known another employer. Today, it seems the only employers who train people directly out of school are the management consulting firms, and that's basically because they don't want anyone who's learned habits anywhere else. The only ticket in is a high enough GPA in anything from an Ivy League school...everything else is taught.

    I think the only thing that can fix this is a "detente" on both sides, borrowing a Cold War term. Employers need to accept that they're not getting a drop-in replacement for someone who leaves, no matter what the Indian consulting firm tells them. Employers need to understand that they need to develop employees if they don't want a bunch of mercenaries working for them. On the other side, employees need to stop job-hopping every 6 months and actually spend time to learn the business they work for. I'm one of those strange people who like working for the same company for long periods. As long as you don't let yourself stagnate it's a really positive thing in my opinion. I've been careful to move around and take work assignments that keep my skills fresh, but I've also built up a ton of industry knowledge that really helps me do my systems engineer/architect job better.

    • The people are friendly and the climate is only going to get better as the temps start getting uncomfortably high further south.

      You hold the usual uninformed belief that climate change means an increase in temperatures across the world. In fact, temperatures in already warm regions will not increase significantly (but precipitation will increase). The changes in global average temperatures due to climate change are largely due to increasing temperatures at high latitudes.

      Employers need to understand that th

  • by dcooper_db9 ( 1044858 ) on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:52PM (#54026579)
    It's basic economics. They created a whole system to limit the supply and drive up the cost of maple syrup. What happens when the price of maple syrup goes up? The price of rum has to go up as well. Of course when the price of rum goes up your neighbourhood drunk can't afford it any more, so he switches to beer. That drives up the price of beer so the college student's can't afford it any more. So what happens when the dorm isn't properly lubricated? Sober college students study, get to bed, wake up in the morning and make to their exams on time, without a decent hangover. Now you've got all those young people passing their courses and graduating from University. How do we remedy this? You could break up the maple monopoly but there's a quicker and simpler solution. Hand out free beer.
  • by LostMyBeaver ( 1226054 ) on Monday March 13, 2017 @05:33AM (#54027513)
    It's always been hard to get a job if you didn't know how.

    College degrees were never and never will be a guarantee of a career. Let's look at a few :
    1) Law
    There are simply more lawyers than jobs for lawyers. Law might be the worst degree you can go for today since it is one of the fastest careers being automated. Graduate students hoped to get positions as junior lawyers which effectively are people paid to do the shit work for senior lawyers. A senior lawyer used to need 3-10 junior lawyers to do his shit work and then needed a bunch of legal researchers and paralegals etc... now, a senior lawyer needs maybe one or two juniors who are proficient with an iPad and Lexus Nexus.

    2) Teachers
    This has always been a safe career but over the years it has taken a beating. Secondary schools used to employ a great deal more teachers per student than they do now. Of course this leads to classes that are overfull, but it also has to do with hiring someone to be both a gym teacher and math teach (terrible combination) and maybe even the music teacher as well. New pedagogical methods are often researched and experimented with to provide "a better educational experience with less resources".

    You know what... screw it, I can explain field by field for ages, but the truth is, there are far deeper reasons for the problem than what can be covered like that.

    College graduates today simply do it wrong.

    Let's talk about the choice of degree.

    1) High school students entering college study what they want to study, not what there is or will be a market for. The .COM boom introduced a weird "don't worry, you can study anything and you can make your own job and get rich" idea. This is nonsense and was as stupid as the .COM boom.

    2) Guidance counselors at high schools are absolute idiots in general. I've spoken with a few of them and they honestly haven't the slightest idea what the difference between a marine biologist and a nuclear physicist is. They offer career and educational advice to kids who will ruin their entire lives based on their ideas.

    3) Just because there's a LOT of hot jobs in it today doesn't mean there will be in 5-6 years when you graduate. Corporate pedagogy was super-hot in 1998 and when the students graduated, there wasn't a single job to be found in it anywhere. Team building is another dumb one. HR as a college degree is toilet paper. While pedagogy has undeniable value, it doesn't necessarily translate as it's almost always a liability job for companies. There is absolutely no possible way a "pedagogy officer" in a company can be spun on the balance sheets to look like it's not in the same class as corporate massage therapist.

    Let's talk about job hunting

    1) What have you done?
    I mean really, what have you done while you were in college. You had 6 years (no 2 and 4 years doesn't count, that's just extended high school) to do something. What did you do that has any value to anyone? Writing a paper doesn't mean anything anymore. A thesis is nifty, but unless you are planning on living as a theoretical scientist or graduate professor, you better have actually done something which can be applied

    2) What's on your GitHub?
    This is of course for people who actually make things. Where's your designs? Where are your programs? Show me something you built while you were in school. I want to be able to browse through 3 years of your code and actually see whether you improve or if you're the same schlump that you were when you started. I honestly don't give a shit whether you can memorize Donald Knuth's books. I wouldn't hire anyone who hasn't anyway. But I want to see what you have actually done. Show me a project that makes you look interesting.

    3) What about your internships?
    Paid internship? You managed that and in the end, you ended up without a job? Why didn't th

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