Trump To Overhaul H-1B Visa Program To Encourage Hiring Americans (theguardian.com) 619
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: In a bid to court working class voters, Donald Trump will sign an executive order on Tuesday to revamp a temporary visa program used to bring foreign workers to fill jobs in the U.S. The president will use a visit to a manufacturing company in Kenosha, Wisconsin, a crucial state he snatched from Hillary Clinton in the election, to promote his latest "Buy America Hire America" offensive. Trump's executive order will call on government departments to introduce reforms to ensure that H-1B visas are awarded to the "most skilled or highest paid applicants," a senior administration official said. The executive order will also call for the "strict enforcement" of laws governing entry to the U.S. of labor from overseas, with a view to creating higher wages and employment rates for U.S. workers. The order will also call on government departments to "take prompt action to crack down on fraud and abuse" in the immigration system, a senior administration official said. The administration official sad: "Right now H-1B visas are awarded by random lottery and many of you will be surprised to know that about 80% of H-1B workers are paid less than the median wage in their fields. Only 5% to 6%, depending on the year, of H-1B workers command the highest wage tier recognized by the Department of Labor. [...] If you change that current system that awards visas randomly, without regard for skill or wage, to a skills-based awarding, it makes it extremely difficult to use the visa to replace or undercut American workers [...] It's a very elegant way of solving very systemic problems in the H-1B guest worker visa."
Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
I would agree with that assessment of great, however using that metric, no nation has ever been great.
So now we fall back to "richest and most powerful."
But it's a very well known fact... (Score:5, Insightful)
That US-Americans haven't learned to use that metric. Nor any decent metric. They are still stuck using Imperial.
(hmmm, quite fitting for Mr. Trump!)
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Because all the places that are non-metric are still intuitive to Americans. An inch is about the length of your thumb. A foot is about the length of your foot. A cup is about as much as a tea cup, and twice that you have what fits in pint glass. 0-100 degrees Fahrenheit covers the comfortable livable temperature of humans, and thus is very convenient for telling the weather (which is what 90% of what all non-cooking Americans use temperature for).
Anything that requires precision is already metric. Chemistr
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An inch is about the length of your thumb
That's a small hand, is that you Donnie?
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Re:Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
You have a really low standard for "great" apparently. I would define "great" as leading the world in peaceful conflict resolution, technological advancement, social advancement, education, art and overall happiness and equality of a nation's citizenry. Trump is working towards, well, none of those.
Let's go through each of these.
The first one is particularly telling. It was Trump, more than anybody (except perhaps Bernie, certainly more than Hilary) who spoke out against getting America involved in foreign wars. So much so that he was at 'war' (no pun intended) with a good section of his own party - Bush/Graham/McCain - over the Iraq war, which got particularly ugly during the SC primaries. He wanted to get along with Russia, but the Democrats made that impossible by obsessing over 'Russian interference' in the elections. Nonetheless, 2 weeks ago, most of his seniormost officials, like Tillerson and Haley, stated that they'd acquiesce with Assad remaining in power. This was as close to peaceful conflict resolution that one can get, and should have calmed Damascus. Instead, Assad launched a chemical weapons attack on Ibdil, making it impossible for Trump not to respond. One could hardly imagine a stupider Syrian response to what was essentially a peace gesture.
After that, the North Korean thing can't be peaceful, given that President Un has stated that they are heading towards thermonuclear war. They have, in violation of many treaties, tested both nukes as well as ballistic missiles. Given that they could easily drop a nuke on Seoul, this is not a can that can be kicked down the road.
Technological advancement - I'm not sure how any government is supposed to do that. The US is more technologically advanced than anyone else, but there are a few things here and there, such as protection of intellectual property, that can be done, but is currently lower priority.
Social advancement - these days, it seems to center around anybody being able to enter bathrooms of their choice based on what they feel like. While more conservative factions of the party have taken a stance against that, the president has been careful not to.
Education - well, college tuition costs are at an all time high, but education has not been landing people jobs, given how out of touch with the real world it is. If anything, it's a ball & chain that keeps young people deep in debt. It's hard to achieve overall happiness when things like education and health care are as screwed as they are, courtesy the previous administration.
As for the nation's citizenry, they are equal. Equality of opportunity, that is. What you are looking for, perhaps, is equality of outcome, which is unattainable, even in pure Communist countries. What equality has come to mean is a code-word for affirmative action - something that's failed despite being around for 50 years.
Trump's goals - making the US an attractive place to hire people, and making it militarily more powerful and politically more assertive, so that enemies like North Korea or Iran or ISIS don't mess with us, while adversaries like Russia, China, EU stop taking advantage of us - are certainly adequate in MAGA. So as Gatsinko noted above, making the US the richest & most powerful ever is the best path to getting there
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The bottom line is Trump has attacked intellectual honesty and diplomacy, which fails to create an environment where issues can be discussed openly and honestly and actions taken based on said discourse.
He has charted an ideological course on many issues (such as healthcare) that get us further from addressing the real issues. We are setting ourselves back a decade or more in controlling he
Re: Make America Great (Score:5, Informative)
The air strip was not destroyed.
It was operational in 24 hours [yahoo.com].
Re:Make America Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, massive, unconstitutional emoluments clause violations. This will be his downfall.
The rest of the stuff is just because he's an ignorant moron.
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"Who told you about the emoluments?"
The conservatives that freaked out about the cash award that came with Barak Obama's Nobel Prize. It was determined that Obama could accept the medal itself but had to give away the money.
Re:Make America Great (Score:5, Informative)
The better question is what he's done right.
When you find yourself in a hole - stop digging. Dropping the TPP was a great way to stop digging. Working on making H1Bs be less of a scam is also a good move. I'm not saying that Trump is perfect but I do think that he's doing stuff that might help the middle class that neither Hillary nor any of the other Republicans would have done. Only Bernie would have done better.
Re:Make America Great (Score:4, Insightful)
What exactly has he done wrong so far?
The better question is what he's done right. So far he has signed an unconstitutional executive order,
If it's unconstitutional then so was Obama's, yet nobody seemed to get their panties in a wad when he stopped Iraqis from coming into the country for a period of time based on a law passed by Congress. The judge used Trump's campaign language as a basis for deciding that now the order is illegal - I'm frankly more concerned about the judge.
inflamed tensions with Russia
Wait, I thought he was a Russian stooge. So difficult to keep up with this stuff.
and North Korea,
Oh, bull fucking shit. Kim Jong Un is pissing off the world, including China. His biggest export is coal and China just cut him off to buy from America. Are they also "inflaming tensions", or is the asshole Kim doing it himself? We both know the answer. It's good to have a US President that is willing to stand up to Kim. The guy is soon going to be able to put nukes on missiles - it's time to take him seriously.
sent his press secretary out to blatantly and obviously lie to the press
It took this long to get to something substantive.
vacillated on his positions regarding Syria, China, and NATO, accused the previous administration of criminality with no proof or evidence, and acted surprised that things like health care legislation and international relations are complicated. He tweets at 3 AM about Arnold Schwarzenegger's performance at his old job, like some teenage girl jealous that Brian likes Becky now.
The man is a boor and a buffoon, and an embarrassment to our country. I'm still slightly astounded that about 27% of the population doesn't recognize that.
He has a 50% approval rating. Sorry to let you know that.
And, frankly, he's no more of an embarrassment than Obama was. As a lefty, you probably didn't see that. Let me give you a clue - it got so bad that the President of the Philippines - long considered a vassal state to the US - openly mocked Obama last year. He was seen as a weak fool in Asia, which is why China wouldn't even give him the red carpet (don't bother with some stupid shit from media matters explaining that they actually did).
I'm not a Trump fan but I recognize why he won (clue: Hillary) and I have no delusions that we would have been better off in *any* way with Hillary in the White House.
Re:Make America Great (Score:4, Informative)
Actually there was never a formal declaration of war with Korea so it would be hard for Trump to use this non-existent declaration to justify going into North Korea. The Korean war was a UN action that Truman sent US troops to support.
https://www.theatlantic.com/po... [theatlantic.com]
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The last declaration of war was WWII.
Also, the United States has no "list of enemies."
That's why Snowden was charged with espionage and not treason.
Re: Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: Make America Great (Score:4, Funny)
"That is good." - Nameless mongol leader.
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When it was a lot easier to get jobs, without worrying about them being eliminated and sent overseas. When products were of quality make and made in America
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No, American products and labor do not cost more. When you factor in longevity and quality, American products beat most the others.
I can out produce outsourcers on a dollar per project basis. However, PHB look at headcount. The entire H1B is a scam.
Re: Make America Great (Score:4, Insightful)
The entire H1B is a scam.
Techie tunnel vision: H1B's are used for many other purposes than getting cheap IT help from India. My interaction with the program has been "just hired a new theoretical physics professor, who happens to not hold US citizenship". How to get him permission to work at a US university? Get an H1B.
In that case, it was pretty easy to prove there wasn't a US national who could fill the job better than the foreigner: we had just done an exhaustive search to find the best applicant.. Sounds like it was working as designed: don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Re: Make America Great (Score:5, Informative)
DHS info on O1-A [uscis.gov]
Re: Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
Only a few people are saying "scrap the H1B" program. My current programming lead is from Europe, and I'd guess he's here on H1B or something similar, but most of our people are from the US. We're glad to have him, but I don't feel he's necessarily displacing any qualified workers. We've had positions opened for many months, and it's extremely difficult to find qualified people to fill those positions. There are plenty of tech workers in the US, but often you need people with very specific qualifications (no, real ones, not made up shit).
But there's also no doubt that the program needs cleaning up to prevent some of the rampant abuse that's gone on. It's CLEARLY being abused by many corporations looking to save money by "outsourcing" without the downsides of the workers residing in another country.
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Says someone who has never been through it.
When you've been through H1-B, you can not form an unbiased opinion on the program itself. You can testify to the difficulty and unfair practices by employers.
H1-B by itself is a good program. What's missing is the enforcement of its prerequisites. LCA is way to easy to get, and reported abuse is not investigated (think Disney).
The scam only becomes apparent when viewed with a larger perspective. Let's be honest: most temp workers have immigration intents. Balu from Mumbai who gets an H1-B only wants hi
Re: Make America Great (Score:5, Insightful)
Shouldn't the consumer bear some responsibility for this? You and others choose which products are successful when you and others make purchase choices.
You go to the store to buy $THING. You see two choices. One costs more. Is it built to last, so that the extra cost is worth it? You can't tell without buying both and waiting several years.
You are making the assumption that people buying things have complete information about the products they buy. That assumption does make the math easy in econ 101, but it is not true in the real world.
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I Can Only Assume... (Score:2)
Re:Easy way to MAGA (Score:5, Insightful)
High-skill jobs were what was supposed to replace the lost manufacturing jobs. The idea was to retrain some manufacturing workers, and younger people would get degrees that lead into high-skill jobs.
H1Bs greatly harm that paradigm.
they need to bring manufacturing back as its the only place where you need large numbers of workers
Not anymore. Automation means you only need a larger number of workers if they are incredibly cheap workers. As soon as you go above third-world wages, automation is cheaper.
This is starting to happen to China. Their manufacturing workers are getting expensive enough that companies are looking at "re-shoring" with highly automated factories and virtually no workers, or moving their plant to another country where workers are still incredibly poor.
It already bears fruit (Score:5, Funny)
Only hours after the announcement, corporations all over America started hiring lawyers to find new loopholes in the law.
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Given the "swamp draining" skills Trump's shown so far, I'm expecting that he's going to outsource the implementation and enforcement of the H1B program to an Indian corporation...
You're giving him too much credit... (Score:3, Insightful)
Given the "swamp draining" skills Trump's shown so far, I'm expecting that he's going to outsource the implementation and enforcement of the H1B program to an Indian corporation...
Instead, just start the countdown clock until he reports that "No one realized that visas would be so hard." or until he has a 10 minute conversation with a foreign leader who explains to him why he's wrong.
Or until they find him in the corner of the rose garden smearing himself in his own shit as the dementia kicks into top gear.
Re:It already bears fruit (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, but now they're hiring American lawyers!
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Only hours after the announcement, corporations all over America started hiring lawyers to find new loopholes in the law.
Most of that hiring was done months ago by lobbying groups involved in crafting the executive order. Now those lawyers will be working as consultants for the large corporations.
No looking for loopholes necessary, they were already baked in purposefully. And this is a case where Trump is no different than any other politician so no Trump bashing is really appropriate.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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3 Miles is the customs zone where visas are required. 12 miles is territorial waters. 200 miles is Exclusive Economic Zone. It can be argued that there is no economic activity going on as salaries are paid in home countries and the folks are simply on vacation and using their laptops during vacation. Outside the customs zone no inspections can be done by Dept. of Labor or USCIS.
It's A Start (Score:5, Insightful)
At least it's moving in the right direction. However, there is no shortage of skilled American workers. Just the opposite is true. We have a glut of skilled American workers, but there is a dramatic shortage of decent, livable-wage jobs in America.
While tightening the rules around H1B is a good start, the system needs to be entirely gutted.
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What we have is a glut of workers (in software anyways) that THINK they're skilled.
Turns out floating through your undergraduate, gaining no work experience, and being terrible at interviewing makes you ill prepared to work in the field. Who knew.
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Turns out floating through your undergraduate, gaining no work experience, and being terrible at interviewing makes you ill prepared to work in the field. Who knew.
Floating as in being one of the best students in your class for instance? Floating because you are so smart that the classes and assignments are too easy and you spend most of your time working on your own projects? And how are computer science students supposed to get work experience if no one wants to hire them? Unless they are Indian of course. And lie on their resumes. The whole corporate HR hiring system is so idiotic and badly broken those monkeys have zero right to complain about there not being enou
Internships and open source contributions (Score:3)
And how are computer science students supposed to get work experience if no one wants to hire them?
Internships and open source contributions...
Seriously, there is no excuse for lack of experience. There is lots of opportunities to make high impact contributions to reputable open source projects.
I didn't say it wasn't hard work, but the opportunities are there... And internships are widely available in the US, sure there is competition, but many of the good internships are well paid too.
I wonder if putting an Indian name on my job applications would have helped.
Try it, I bet it won't help... You can also try attaching a fake picture why not...
Multiple studies have found that
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> the system needs to be entirely gutted
I don't know what that means, both in general, and in implementation. But it sure makes you sound tough on something. I'm not convinced you have any idea what it means either. Most people just seem to stop talking after their suggestion is to tear something down.
Re:It's A Start (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. In the last 10 years I have seen more companies abusing this in the tech sectors than I have ever seen before. TATA Consulting Services or TCS has taken advantage of the lax H1-B rules in so many companies. Look at the more public cases like ComEd (midwest power company), Disney and others where TCS and other offshore companies were hired to place people here in the US to replace American workers simply because they were able to provide cheaper labor. They aren't paying prevailing wages, they are paying $50k - $60k for jobs that normally pay $75k to $80k. These workers live in apartments that are subsidised by TCS with roommates (2-3) so that they can afford housing. Sure it's white collar work with living wage rates, but these guys aren't bringing in 3-5 year veterans, they are bringing in college grads from India and other countries. We have TONS of college grads in technology that are looking for jobs. Many would be happy to take the $50k, but companies sign multi-BILLION DOLLAR contracts with these "offshoring companies" that require them to supply both offshore AND ONSHORE resources. As agile and other technical project management methodologies become more and more common, the need for having local resources that are able to work together more collaboratively has resulted in companies sponsoring ONSHORE replacement programs.
That is the outrageous abuse that revamping the H1-B program needs to address. I have worked for and consulted for a number companies in the last 10 years and almost every one of them had some degree (some far more than others) of H1-B program in place that, at minimum, was using it to pay under-skilled foreigners less to "fill a role" that could be easily filled by native talent.
To be clear, I am not an isolationist and many of the people that have come from these companies and countries are god friends of mine. Yes, on a personal level, I don't want to see them go, the the fact is that we are supposed to have a government that protects it's citizens, not a globalized economic system that puts us back into a pre-unionized age where the workers become oppressed and a slave class. Okay, that's a bit over the top, I mean getting paid $50k to sit at a desk and right code isn't anywhere near slavery, but my point is that it is regression and we shouldn't take that step back.
To answer the obvious troll questions, yes, I am personally very frustrated by this whole issue. I have been in countless positions to hire talented people in junior roles where I can mentor and develop the kind of skills that college grads need. I have had interns from some universities that have shown promise, but rather than hire on some of these folks, I have been specifically told by one company that I cannot and that we need to meet the "contractual obligations of TCS and fill the role with an H1-B worker". When you're in that position, TCS doesn't send you top talent. The company, not the individual, has rewritten a resume for someone that has 1-2 years of offshore call center experience and coached them to lie in the interview. They coach them on what to say to basic job skill questions and often they have little to no experience other than a book they read on the plane trip to the US. I'm not joking, I have actually be told by a worker once that this was the case.
Now, I've also hired a couple of VERY TALENTED folks that needed H1-B sponsorship and, if I am not able to find someone else to fill that specialized role (sometimes with jobs paying into the 6 figures) have agreed to cover the H1-B sponsorship costs. That is what this is supposed to be used for, but honestly, I can say that's been 2 times of the hundreds that I have seen over the last 10 years. This isn't an anti-world and anti-immigration thing, this is an anti-letting companies abuse policies that hurt US workers thing.
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I don’t think it’s a matter of being in their 40’s. I’m in my 40’s and I pick up new languages as I need to. But I really enjoy this stuff. Computer science is as much a hobby for me as it is a profession. A lot of people get into tech fields because they want a job, not because they give a crap about the topic. For someone who lacks enthusiasm, learning a single programming language is a super big deal because it’s effort they don’t want to expend. Those peop
Re:It's A Start (Score:4, Interesting)
Any job development programs at your company to help train 50-year old immigrant taxi drivers to program?
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. You're simply not going to retrain people in their 40s+.
You might be able to, but you're not going to retrain them on-the-job for completely different sets of skills than the ones that they've used previously and you're absolutely not going to be able to train them for things that they didn't stand a chance of being able to learn when they were in their 20s.
Re:It's A Start (Score:5, Insightful)
And this is the sort of age-ist bullshit that makes it easier for companies to continue abusive hiring practices. Is it reasonable to say that every 40+ worker can be a programmer? No, but to paint a huge swath of the population with the "they're simply untrainable" brush is as intolerant and ignorant as making any broad statement about broad swaths of the population.
(30+ programmer here)
Re:It's A Start (Score:5, Interesting)
I switched jobs when I was 40. I went from a retail job that I had been working at for over a decade, to a programmer at a small company.
Now, I had a degree in Computer Science, so it's not like I was making that jump with nothing to back it up. But I still spent the first couple months on the job just learning. (Hell, technically, I'm still learning.)
Not everyone is going to be able to make that jump. Sometimes it's going to be because of their age. Or rather, because some people believe that at their age, they can't make that jump. Some people can't make that jump because they lack the skills and can't get hired at an entry-level position when there are better applicants available.
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Just for curiosity with a CS degree why were you working retail?
Ask a millennial.
Sorry, I couldn't help it.
Re:It's A Start (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's A Start (Score:4, Informative)
You're simply not going to retrain people in their 40s+.
Really? I am over 40 and most of the stuff I am doing now was not even in existence 10 years ago. Of course you can not expect anyone under 30 to be rational... ;)
Re:It's A Start (Score:4, Insightful)
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You're simply not going to retrain people in their 40s+.
After first hand experience I find this false. It depends on the person, their motivation, talent, and most importantly the companies willingness to invest in people. I had to retrain a "programmer" in their 50's. While he is slower and makes rookie mistakes he has a good work ethic (much better than mine TBH). Initially, I didn't want to have anything to do with him because I felt it was a waste of my time to go over basic things but my boss told us "we invest in people and our people are our most valuable
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There's no glut of skilled workers. Unskilled? Oh, hell yes. But sorry, kids, but you can't take Joe Factory Worker and teach him Python
Nice strawman there. A better example would be a geeky computer programmer with a tested IQ above 135 and a bachelors degree in computer science and a deep passion and love for all kinds of coding (including assembly) from a good US university who can spend literally years searching for a code monkey job but who has to settle for bagging groceries at a supermarket instead. It's not just a cliche. It's very real. At least that is the world I grew up in. Way way way more qualified job candidates than there we
Because the salespitch was a lie (Score:2)
If the program really was there to fill a labour pool deficit, it never would have allowed for visas for positions where the wage was below the current median wage (for those employed, not for empty positions waiting to be filled). You'd still get downward pressure on wages as labour supply increased, but it'd be slower.
If your goal is to outsource to cheaper countries, the existing program works very well... until companies that can decide to move as much of their operations abroad as required to cut cost
Re:Because the salespitch was a lie (Score:5, Insightful)
Even simpler, increase the wages (Score:4, Insightful)
Raise the minimum salary to $100,000 per year, have it automatically increase by 1.5% per year. Done.
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Still too low. Here is what I would do:
Quarterly auction with an absolute cap on quantity, starting bid of $200,000/year (in total compensation) + 25% fee. Unused slots are lost.
Full salary to be placed in escrow to be paid over time regardless of anything else that happens to the applicant (quits/fired, dies, doesn't enter the country, whatever). Visa is owned and held by the worker, remains valid until 6 months after last day of employment in-country. Criminal penalties for a company officer for failu
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Bah, html typo dropped the quote:
I don't understand the motivation for this. If they have passed your stringent test for being needed and skilled, why not let them stay? Why finance the growth of businesses in other countries?
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I honestly don't think this is needed.
Re:Even simpler, increase the wages (Score:5, Interesting)
If there really is a shortage, paying a premium to fill those gaps at the top will not be a problem.
So actually enforce the law? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:So actually enforce the law? (Score:5, Insightful)
Haven't you noticed hundreds of tiny ads in the classified sections of local newspapers asking for programmers or testers and they include salary information? But when you contact them you never hear anything back? Those ads are generating the "proof" needed for the government that the position can't be filled by American workers.
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How about we actually enforce the law rather than change it
Because it's difficult to enforce. How much does a 'software engineer' earn? The same job title applies to someone doing security and timing sensitive code for a microcontroller with 16KB of RAM and someone tweaking some PHP on a low-volume web site. The law requires that you pay the average wage for the profession, but if you want to hire people for the former occupation you're able to point to the large volume of people doing the latter to justify the salary. And the only thing that you have to do to
Re:So actually enforce the law? (Score:4, Insightful)
So what he's saying then is that there's nothing wrong with the law, it's just not being enforced?
It's not just that. This EO is saying that someone has 220 days to create a report, for Trump to review about how the law is not being enforced. That's all. The reason for all of this bluster is to make his trust-and-don't-verify support base think that he's actually doing something.
Re:So actually enforce the law? (Score:4, Insightful)
Google, Microsoft, et al don't have standing to sue the outsourcing companies for visa abuse.
It's not just low-level IT - as the links above show, it's entire departments. Even it was targeting low-level IT only, that makes it harder for new college graduates to find jobs - everybody has to start somewhere.
Make the H1B minwage $100K + COL (Score:2)
Make the H1B minwage $100K + COL
That will fix the issue.
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Indeed it will. The fix is truly simple.
The problem is that it is a real fix, with no way to game it, which is why such would be fought tooth and nail.
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However if they have official H1B stats claiming 80% makes under the median for their skill/trade, that's an issue. Would want to know where these stats come from though.
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is it the subcontracted con game where they play this shell game where on paper they make 100K but there real pay is like 50K with staffing firm kicking back a big part of the pay back to the work site.
Biased article.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Logical failures (Score:2)
If you change that current system that awards visas randomly, without regard for skill or wage, to a skills-based awarding, it makes it extremely difficult to use the visa to replace or undercut American workers [...] It's a very elegant way of solving very systemic problems in the H-1B guest worker visa."
This person is either extremely naive or lying through their teeth. Awarding visas for skills does not automatically translate to paying comparable wages to receive those skills. They would have to monitor wages and ensure that the wages being paid do not fall below the median wages for the job and sharply limit the number of visa recipients to prevent flooding the market and thus driving down the median wage.
Of course the problem is that reforms to the H1B visa program risk being basically a form of prote
Re:Logical failures (Score:5, Interesting)
There is nothing magical about computer code written in the US versus in China or Russia.
I want to agree with this statement (assuming "China or Russia" can be replaced with a generic "overseas"), but my experience tells me otherwise. While anecdotal, I have spent time on many teams where I am one of a few, or possibly the only, non-Indian immigrant on the team (team size varies from 10-50 people). I'm a consultant, and I'm pulled in to help on different projects for my firm's clients.
The immigrants I've worked with, while nice (very much so), and knowledgeable in very specific technology, have no broad critical thinking skills, software design/architecture skills, or outside-the-box thinking. Basically, if what they need to code doesn't match an example from whatever 6-week class they took before getting the visa, they won't have a clue. This means the solutions end up being a glut of cobbled together code until things work. There's entire segments of code that are usually obsolete or do nothing... worse yet, silently fail; users just get tired of reporting bugs and find their own workarounds, so management falsely believes things are being fixed when the bug reports die down.
This isn't their fault mind you. They are being exploited... first by the inadequate training farms in their native country (or possibly online), and then by the "body shops" that bring them to the US and hire them out at outrageous rates while paying as little as possible. While their client is getting subpar coding infused into their software, ultimately increasing costs over time.
I want the H-1B visas overhauled not only to ensure America jobs stay American, but also so these immigrants aren't exploited. They are more than welcome to move to this country, but it should be on better terms, even if that prevents a multitude of them from coming here without more effort than is being expended now.
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Awarding visas for skills does not automatically translate to paying comparable wages to receive those skills
I'm pretty sure the only skill that matters is the "being able to work for slightly above minimum wage" skill.
Lip service (Score:5, Interesting)
The simple way to fix the problems (Score:5, Insightful)
Just set a minimum wage for H-1B visas so anyone imported in via a H-1B visa costs more than hiring an American to do the job would have cost and most of the abuse of the system goes away.
Combine this with some sort of labor market testing so they cant bring in a foreign worker if there is an American capable of doing the job and 99% of the problems with H-1B visas go away. (if you do this right you can structure it to also avoid the situation where companies import foreign workers to train them up and send them back to their home country as cheap outsourced labor)
Doing this ensures that H-1B visas only get used when there is no American capable of doing the job (and the company can demonstrate they tried to find an American for the job first) or when they need a specific individual for some reason (and can prove there is no American with the necessary skills/experience/knowledge to do the job)
Will this solve every issue with H-1B visas? No. Will companies try to find loopholes? Yes. Would this be significantly better than doing nothing? Most definitely.
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Small detail (Score:2)
Good news for Canadians and Mexicans!
The very best immigrant coders... (Score:2)
Now I'm worried (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the only Trump policy that I actually agree with. So I'm on the horns of a dilemma. Is this actually the only policy of his that is not actively harmful? Or am I on the wrong side of the issue?
The use of H1B visas can only serve to short-circuit one of the foundational principal of capitalism, which is supply and demand. When demand exceeds existing supply, prices must rise in order to stimulate the generation of more supply. When supply exceeds demand, prices must go down to discourage excess production. If this mechanism is undercut, then supply and demand get out of whack and the relevant market becomes distorted. This happens any time that price controls are imposed on a market, or when there is a sudden unanticipated spike in demand for a product, or when supply is artificially inflated. This is true of any market, including the labor market.
The use of H1B visas is actively depressing demand for more American STEM graduates, which is the exact opposite of what President Obama said he wanted. Who wants to go into a field where their jobs can be easily outsourced to cheap imported labor? Into a job market where the government is actively working against its own citizens? Nobody who has any sense, that's who.
So I do feel that Trump is actually correct on this issue. Let's see how long it is before he flip-flops on this one, too.
Re:Now I'm worried (Score:5, Interesting)
Is this actually the only policy of his that is not actively harmful?
You must attribute superhuman powers to Trump in order to believe that every policy he makes is actively harmful. Honestly, it would be impossible for any human to do that on purpose, it would require omniscience. Odds are that there are any number of policies that you believe in which would also be actively harmful. The same is true for me, and for everyone.
I disagree with most of what Trump is doing and has done, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can tell what is and what is not harmful with certainty, and I don't believe that Trump is Satan incarnate, doing nothing but evil.
To put it another way: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Trump will be right sometimes, too.
But I actually think he's wrong on this one. H1-B reform is needed, but his change is inadequate. At a minimum H1-B visa holders also need to be allowed to change jobs without losing their visa.
High quality Indian applicants are scarce. (Score:5, Informative)
Our company makes very sincere effort to recruit Americans and comply with the laws in spirit as well as letter. We pay way above median wage for our areas. We are hard core engineering software company, not IT. I have not seen applicants with degrees from Indian Institutes of Technology in the last 10 years. It has simply dried up. IITians now a days get fantastic jobs in India, or they go do MBA and come to USA to do MBA and get jobs in top Wall Street firms and top 4 consultancy companies.
I do see applicants with degrees from next rung in India, NITs and good engineering colleges with Masters from USA.
The only change they really need to make to the H1B program is to state that degrees from accredited US universities will be given first preference. Degrees from diploma mills from India should not count. That would be enough to make sure these companies like TCS, Cogniscent, Wipro, Infosys and the lesser known body shoppers like R-systems, UBICS, Bharat Desai's companies, Sunil Wadhwani's companies etc stop gaming our laws.
(my background: IIT, IISc, UT, F1, H1B, Green Card, Citizen now.)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
do an HB1 visa auction! (Score:3)
Scam, etc (Score:4, Interesting)
The Tautological President (Score:3)
President Trump has made a habit of signing executive orders which say we will do what we are doing.
And that's all the latest executive order does. It literally doesn't change anything. It simply says we will do what we've been doing.
And, really, that's all the president can do except veto things. Mr. Trump shouldn't even be able to order acts of war without prior approval of congress. It's one thing to attack terrorists (for which president's have some approval). It's illegal and unconstitutional to attack the legitimate military forces of sovereign nations without explicit approval by congress.
When are people going to catch on to the fact that Mr. Trump isn't really achieving *anything* with most of his executive orders except publicity? He's dependent on congress to budget money and to change laws.
And since his government is still largely unstaffed after nearly 90 days in office, he lacks the people to implement his policies. There is a serious disconnect between the presidency and the departments right now created by thousands of unfilled upper level positions.
Re:What's wrong with these people?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Abuse of the H1-B program is not primarily done by large corporations. Instead there are specialized "body shops" doing it. These body shops pretty much only employ H1-B Indian software/testing people and then rent them out to business in the US as temporary staff. These body shop companies make huge profits for the owners since they bring in the H1-B people at very low wages and then rent them out at 90% of a normal salary. The savings to the large corporation is not much since most of the profits accrue to the body shops. One of these shop owners lives near me in a $20M house and has made over $100M profit from renting out H1-Bs. These body shops are where the bulk of the abuse occurs and they need to be outlawed.
Re:What's wrong with these people?! (Score:5, Interesting)
To understand how this scam works... H1-B Indian will have BS/MS degrees (from India) and they are willing to work for $35,000. So the body shop takes out tiny ads in local newspapers offering to hire programmers/testers with a BS/MS for $35,000. Of course no qualified US computer person is going to take work at $35,000/yr. These ads generate the "proof" needed that these jobs can't be filled by Americans.
The body shop then brings in 500 H1-B people and pays them $35,000/yr. According to the law this is allowed, there are no US citizen willing to take these jobs at $35,000/yr. But then the owner of this body shop turns right around and places these people as temp workers for $80,000/yr. He undercuts the US temp workers who would get $90,000/yr.
This is a great business $80,000 - $35,000 = $45,000 profit per H1-B visa per year. This is how you make $100M from owning a body shop over the course of a few years.
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I have never been to India but I have read about both the education system there being very bad in general and that the India Institute of Technology is pretty damn good. And maybe a few other prestigious schools with extremely low acceptance rates. So the real answer is probably 'it depends'.
However I would guess that at least some of those so called degrees really are not comparable to degrees from US or UK universities. It's hard to know for sure unless you go sit in on some of the classes or at least lo
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and they need to have staff job interviewers to put places to the test that they are really doing an interview not just a quick chat with some HR person that wants to not hire a USC.
Also the posted requirements will be reviewed and flagged.
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Re:Pay the going market pay rate, or go out busine (Score:4)
It's not that simple. There aren't "two classes" of H-1Bs, they're all the same, there are just honest companies, and dishonest ones. There is no way to kill one of those without harming the other. In fact, the more you try to crack down on the dishonest ones, the more you hurt the honest ones, while the cheaters just find new ways to cheat.
Now stepping up enforcement is probably warranted, but it's not as easy as it sounds, and changing the rules doesn't necessarily accomplish what you think it will.
As for the Canadian equivalent, that would be the TFW program, which has been equally abused, but equally essential to some companies' survival.
Crafting rules that allow companies to fill legitimate vacancies they can't fill otherwise, while not allowing companies to simply undercut the local labour market, is no easy task.
There are a few suggestions I've seen that would help though:
- Mandate a certain % that you must pay over the going market rate for the job (still very hard to enforce as proving the market rate for any exact job is tough)
- Allow the foreign worker control of their visa, if they leave the employ of one employer, they have a grace period to find similar work at another employer before they must leave the country. This would address the issue of companies bringing in people that won't rock the boat for fear of being shipped home, and give those workers similar power to domestic workers to stand up for themselves, removing an incentive to game the system to get them. A similar effect could be achieved by replacing temporary workers with permanent ones. If we really have a skills shortage in a specific area, what's wrong with looking for actual immigrants with those skills? (not temporary ones that can be sent home at a whim)
Re:Right Sure... (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently you don't know what the fuck you're talking about since that's not remotely close to being true.
Please educate yourself. You're embarrassing all the other asshats on Slashdot.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/muslim-majority-countries-donald-trump-travel-ban-immigration-entry-visa-three-main-countries-exempt-a7552526.html [independent.co.uk]
Uh, yeah. You're the embarrassment who needs to educate yourself. The executive order is based on a law passed in 2015 and signed by Obama - and the seven countries are listed there. Even the loons at Politifact know this:
http://www.politifact.com/wisc... [politifact.com]
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The executive order is based on a law passed in 2015 and signed by Obama - and the seven countries are listed there.
And conveniently ignoring the countries that Trump has business interests in. You do realize that most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia?