Kids Praised for Being Smart are More Likely to Cheat (ucsd.edu) 173
An anonymous reader quotes the University of California:
An international team of researchers reports that when children are praised for being smart not only are they quicker to give up in the face of obstacles, they are also more likely to be dishonest and cheat. Kids as young as age 3 appear to behave differently when told "You are so smart" vs. "You did very well this time"...
The research builds on well-known work by Stanford's Carol Dweck, author of "Mindset," who has shown that praising a child's innate ability instead of the child's effort or a specific behavior has the unintended consequence of reducing their motivation to learn and their ability to deal with setbacks... In another study, published recently in Developmental Science, the same co-authors show that the consequences are similar even when children are not directly praised for their smarts but are merely told that they have a reputation for being smart.
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
The research builds on well-known work by Stanford's Carol Dweck, author of "Mindset," who has shown that praising a child's innate ability instead of the child's effort or a specific behavior has the unintended consequence of reducing their motivation to learn and their ability to deal with setbacks... In another study, published recently in Developmental Science, the same co-authors show that the consequences are similar even when children are not directly praised for their smarts but are merely told that they have a reputation for being smart.
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
you are so beautiful (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:you are so beautiful (Score:4, Insightful)
The cause and effect could be backwards. Maybe the kids were already cheating, and adults mistakenly believed they were doing well because they were smart.
Disclaimer: Nobody ever told me I was smart.
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They told me, "Ha, you think you're so smart?"
Re:you are so beautiful (Score:5, Interesting)
Summary then does a 180 by linking to a study which speculates praise for being smart reduces motivation to learn. That has cause and effect reversed in my experience. I breezed through high school with little effort, but college actually challenged me so I had a hard time. The study skills most kids had developed in high school to learn stuff which challenged them, I had to develop while in college. So it's not that praise for being smart reduced my motivation to learn. It's that being smart meant I (initially) sucked at learning stuff I found challenging.
The original TFA speculates that praising kids for being smart puts them under the pressure of raised expectations. And the kids do whatever they can to meet those expectations - including cheating.
Pushy parents (Score:2)
So it seems that its the expectations that are the problem, not the praise. It is possible to tell your kids they are smart (if they are - otherwise its clearly raising expectations) without it coming with stupid expectations.
In fact it sounds like the problem is the pushy parents, and I can't say I'm surprised about that.
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In my experience at least 50% of the difficulty level of a particular subject is down to how well it is taught. I think a lot of people assume they are bad at something when in fact they have just had bad teachers.
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Ok let the school system off the hook (Score:1)
Our educational system fails almost everyone with any potential at all. It's designed to pass the largest percentage of it's students possible. Essentially a gigantic special education program.
The vast majority of these people go on to have careers in dick and if they attend college they flock to the easiest programs they can. Then they spend the rest of their adult lives talking about how they never needed science or algebra and will get into the occasional wankfest with their facebook friends about ho
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I had a professor in linear algebra who just wasn't very good. I never understood that subject, and yet it's so important with plenty of times I needed to know it. The class was taught by learning the operations rather than what you could do with the operations. So I learned how to calculate an Eigenvector without knowing why I would ever want to do that again once the test was over.
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Kids were randomly divided into 3 groups - one was praised for being smart, one praised for behavior, one not praised. The group praised for being smart had a higher incidence of cheating. So the cause and effect is correct.
So they told kids who may not be smart that they're smart? Doesn't that make the dumb kids feel like they need to live up to being smart?
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Pretty much this.
What does "being smart" really mean? Know everything? Or know how to game the system?
Nature would demand the second. Least input for optimal output. And that's where cheating comes into play. It's easier and requires less effort to cheat than to learn the bullshit you know you won't ever need again.
Along those lines the law that applies to "illegal" activities comes into play. Anyone pondering an activity that is somehow disallowed will be done by the following law: G > E + C * P
With G b
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P is total punishment. And still P is irrelevant if C is close to zero.
For reference, see filesharing.
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What's the difference between being smart enough to comprehend the material and smart enough to get away with cheating?
Is it a different kind of intelligence or a question of morality?
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Nobody ever told me I was smart
I was told the opposite - "And I better not hear any smart answers out of you!"
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The cause and effect could be backwards. Maybe the kids were already cheating, and adults mistakenly believed they were doing well because they were smart.
I dunno. The effects would jibe with th bad results of the Self Esteem movement in schools, where children are praised as special for anything they do, like looking toward the blackboard.
Disclaimer: Nobody ever told me I was smart.
Awwww Come on! Must.......resist........ obvious......sla....AGGHHHH!
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This is true. I sort of skated through school with high grades and little effort. I think that overall I'd have done better in life had I been dumber and been forced to work harder in school.
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I believe Professor J. Cocker discovered that in 1975.
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Yeah, problem is, no one on /. ever heard that one, so we can't comment ;-)
Sounds familiar (Score:4, Funny)
reducing their motivation to learn and their ability to deal with setbacks
we got a bunch of these kids at the office.
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The catch is that either someone think they are smart and act out of that or someone is really smart but nobody understands what the heck they are talking about because the really smart people are already two or more corners ahead of the rest.
That's why Einstein was underestimated in school - he was already so far ahead in his thought processes that few persons followed what he was up to and therefore weren't able to decide if he was smart or crazy.
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we got a bunch of these kids at the office.
I know quite a few middle-aged adults with this issue, even a few close to retirement. It's a pretty universal problem.
It's not the praise ... (Score:1, Insightful)
... it's that they're smart enough to know that repetitive memorization and standardized test taking are meaningless. Schools are run like businesses rather than institutes of learning and these smart young people are just preparing to bullshit their way through some meaningless job for even less meaningful bosses. Mastering the art of cheating is one of the top tier skills anyone can master. Kudos to them!
Re: It's not the praise ... (Score:1)
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well if they were smart how did they know they were cheating?
of course, maybe cheating is "smart", even if it happens just by bribing the teacher. that's what a lot of asians believe anyways. they believe that the paper and the status from graduation is what matters. and for some, it is like that - they would do very well though if they just learned the stuff, but since their professors didn't take that route how could they?
Re: It's not the praise ... (Score:1)
A smart person would simply not see the utility in wasting one's time learning poor knowledge, or studying things which are better handled via other means. Their time being better spent on knowledge which will actually prove useful, or allowing themselves the time to actually absorb the knowledge, as opposed to rushing for a test.
There may be disagreements between students and professors a
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Sorry, but this just doesn't jibe with standarized testing. Either you answer the questions correctly or you don't. A person could use all their skills and knowledge, but if they get it wrong they get it wrong. Memorization of the answers before hand is much more likely to get higher test scores.
Re: It's not the praise ... (Score:1)
Knowledge gets better scores elsewhere. Knowledge and understanding are more valuable than being able to pass a standardized test. We have reference books, we don't have to memorize the dictionary.
This is standardized testing's flaw.
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I think it's both.
I spent a really long time deteriorating my own willingness to put effort into academics both because I fell for the "smart" identity trap, as well as feeling exploited by what continued education would mean. Fortunately it worked out for me, but it was by means of sheer luck and grit.
It's a dangerous cycle of thinking. I still think higher education in the US is absolutely exploitative and increasingly meaningless for non-STEM-related fields (it's also pretty meaningless for the majorit
How would that explain the difference? (Score:2)
Did you even read the linked article?
They split the children in three groups, in one group they were praised for being smart, in the next they were praised for the performance and in the last there was no praise at all.
Those who were praised for being smart were more often observed (by hidden camera) to cheat than the others.
How does your theory account for that?
Does that include kids (Score:1)
who are actually smart?
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If they were smart they'd have spent 2-3 hours a day finding out how to cheat and not getting caught. Less effort, more gain.
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All depends on the possible punishment. Since that's usually little more than a slap on the wrist and the requirement to take the test again, where's the risk?
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Re: Hits home (Score:1)
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This. All of this. Dammit, you just put in words what I've felt for decades, but unable to properly articulate.
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Able to ace tests from memorized data and notes doesn't mean that you understand the problem or how to apply the knowledge you have on a new problem.
By throwing in a test with questions beyond the expected ability of a student you will see if they have actually understood and are able to "level up". If a test is on a level that it should give a 50% result for the average student and 80% for the top students then it's meaningful. If the test can be aced on a regular basis it's not a good test.
Life is never e
Book It. (Score:1)
I don't know about money but personal pan pizzas got me reading a hell of a lot in the lower grades.
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So? You did what was required to be done to fulfill the requirements for satisfactory results. You were well prepared for your working life.
As a cheater, I can confirm (Score:1)
This is exactly why I cheat. I feel the need to live up to my reputation. My mother was a teacher at my high school so I was known by other teachers as being a smart kid. I didn't really give a shit about any of the material but I had to live up to my reputation of making good grades. I probably cheated on every test in high school.
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Re: As a cheater, I can confirm (Score:1)
In high school, I saw some of my peers looking at my test, so on the Scantron, I marked each answer one off. My neighbors were a bit displeased when they saw me erasing some answers.
Don't let kids think "smart" is important. (Score:5, Insightful)
And if you're a teenager reading this, don't do it to yourself!
Here's what can happen:
You get told you're smart and start to build your self-worth and identity around that.
You avoid practicing activities that you aren't naturally good at, because it threatens your misguided self-image.
You start assuming you just know the answers without checking them against reality, missing valuable feedback on "smart" activities that would improve you.
If you go to university, you waste time with "Ps make degrees" (passes make degrees if the idiom isn't familiar) thinking, and waste that precious time that you could be learning coasting along on being "smart".
You go out into a world full mostly of older people who are more talented than you in every dimension. Some of them were "smarter" than you even before gaining decades of experience. Gasp!
Many of your peers who aren't as "smart" as you go on to be highly happy and successful in what they are good at by working at it. Egad!
Some of your peers who weren't as "smart" as you studied and/or worked hard and _became_ "smarter" than you in the process. Zounds!
You belatedly, as an adult, realise that you need a remedial class in putting effort in instead of coasting along on being naturally "smart", and have the added challenge of dealing with the insecurity you built up through years of having your inappropriately-defined self-worth eroded.
The sooner you realise that "smart" isn't worth shit if you don't constantly work at self improvement, the better off you'll be.
Feel free to share this with anyone you think is on a dangerous path due to being "smart".
Re:Don't let kids think "smart" is important. (Score:4, Insightful)
No modpoints, so I'll just confirm that being told one is smart eventually harms one's self-esteem once they run into a problem they can't overcome, causing them to question if they're actually smart or just able to fool others into thinking they are.
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I had a good friend that was very smart. One of the two smartest people I've ever been friends with. He coasted through school and high school. Got an academic scholarship to a top high school. Once he really had to start to apply himself at university he was unable to. He didn't have that work ethic or drive. Has pretty much done nothing with his life.
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Once he really had to start to apply himself at university he was unable to. He didn't have that work ethic or drive. Has pretty much done nothing with his life.
Because he is too smart for that!
What's the point of laboring like a slave through your life, when you can coast through it with just enough minimal effort?
You may think he has "done nothing with his life", and yet, what have YOU done with your life? Consider your answer, then consider how that answer would be perceived by someone who didn't value what you considered as accomplishment? You would also have pretty much "done nothing" with your life.
All life ends in death. What you choose to do in your life
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If I had mod points I'd mod you up.
I don't think that being told you are smart is the issue. Its the expectations that can come with it.
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What's the point of laboring like a slave through your life, when you can coast through it with just enough minimal effort?
The point is that putting in more effort will probably give you a better life, in at least two ways. One, you'll be rewarded in terms of career position, giving you more flexibility in what you do during your working hours, including opportunities to do work that is more intellectually and emotionally satisfying. Two, you'll be rewarded financially, giving you more flexibility in what you during your non-working hours, including the opportunity to spend less of your life working, if that's what you want.
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Work or ethic. Pick one.
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All other things equal, intelligent people are quicker. This leads to being bored in school, and the lazyness, because the school teaches to the lowest common denominator.
Later in life all other things arent equal. The slower kids grew to have much more experience. Blowing things off never got them anywhere. The intelligent kid grew to still be able to blow things off, but that doesnt get them anywhere now.
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I knew a few people like that in college- very smart, so they coasted through engineering classes- until they couldn't anymore. Then it was like a speedboat hitting rocks. They didn't finish college and have shitty jobs that are well beneath their capabilities. I usually had to study for earlier classes, and learned in time that effort and persistence are required no matter how smart you are. When I got to the harder classes I persisted, and was able to finish college. My kids are in advanced classes,
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I praised my son for working hard and getting through things. (I also sometimes told him, "You're smart. Figure it out.") It seemed to pay off. Fortunately, we had an advanced math program available that was challenging, so he got used to working at math much younger than I had.
One good thing about being smart: when I hit the "gee, I've got to study this, it isn't embedding itself in my brain almost automatically" point, I was able to remember what people had said about studying and the like and put
Re: Don't let kids think "smart" is important. (Score:2)
Amen! Wish you were around when I was young...
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How about... (Score:3)
How about kids asked to cheat? Do they get more praise? You've got to do the reverse to check for dependence against correlation!
Never expected this. (Score:1)
Never had a problem with cheating. I was home schooled, so never had a problem with too many tests.
Tests were rare, so I bounced back and forth between loving tests, and fearing the long-term consequences of failure.
I loved when I got answers wrong on a test, because that marked something To focus on and learn better. A test passed too easily is a tough one to study for after passing it.
Then again, many times when I got answers w
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Also, since you're homeschooled, you can literally never fail a class. Kids who go to actual school have to worry about bad grades because it means they have to take a class over, or can't get into a more advanced class, or later into college.
Re: Never expected this. (Score:1)
Perhaps thats why I was repeatedly put into AP classes whenever I did attend public school?
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Also, since you're homeschooled, you can literally never fail a class. Kids who go to actual school have to worry about bad grades because it means they have to take a class over, or can't get into a more advanced class, or later into college.
Do you know this from experience, or are you just assuming? I too was homeschooled, and I had to redo half of my fourth grade math curriculum (division) because I hadn't understood properly how to do long division. Generally the reason homeschooled kids don't fail classes is because they have significantly more personal attention, not because their parents give them automatic As.
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There's a tricky balance here. Either you tell kids from a very young age that everything they do impacts their future, or you let them have enough wiggle room to enjoy their childhood while trying to mitigate too many failures. There are cultures that place a high degree of pressure on their children for p
Re: Never expected this. (Score:1)
Homeschooling does provide a benefit of only four and a half hours of book work, with the remainder of the day being put to use for more practical experience.
There is also a case for pacing according to the individual, so that no student gets left behind, and has time to fully understand a concept before moving onto the next, resulting in a higher quality education.
Homeschooling also allows self taught individuals to thrive, being able to drive their
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There's a huge variance in home schooling.
So you will get the dire and worrying religious fanatics, but you can also get 'my child is too smart for school and it'll just hold them back' child prodigies.
The thing about standardised schooling is that they try to reduce the variances. So they give help to the kids who are struggling, and hold back the smarter kids; to output more uniform workers. Which is great when you want soldiers and factory workers who can read, write and obey orders.
Re: Never expected this. (Score:1)
There is an old saying, "good help is hard to find". Perhaps that is true. Maybe I'm just "good" help,...
Praise for trying hard, not for success (Score:5, Insightful)
Over time, as I got better at various activities, I slowly realized the key to being the best. This applies to anything and anyone. Winning only means that that your competition wasn't up to snuff.
Want to know how to be the best dancer in the room? Take one hour long class and hang out with people that haven't.
How to be the best educated in the room? Teach elementary school.
It took me a while to realize this. At first I thought it was depressing. But over time I realized it is merely what it means to be the best. It's natural and you can't stop it, unless you are the G.O.A.T (Rest in Peace, Muhammand Ali).
When the second best baseball player in the world is winning, it means the very best is not on the field. When the Mayor is the most important person in the room, he wasn't invited to the Governor's Ball. When the Governor is the most important person in the room you know he's not in the White House.
Winning isn't important. Trying your very best and demonstrating real skill is what's important.
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You can lighten up, you are wrong.
For example, your arguments:
> Want to know how to be the best dancer in the room? Take one hour long class and hang out with people that haven't.
> How to be the best educated in the room? Teach elementary school.
So what ? Who would be satisfied with being surrounded by people that are totally incompetent ?
People don't measure themselves like this. People care what their peers think, not somebody that had not had any dance classes.
This is also how progress is made. Str
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So what ? Who would be satisfied with being surrounded by people that are totally incompetent ?
The current president of these United States, for one.
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You don't understand what I am saying. I was not saying that you should actively hang out with losers. It's not someone saying "Hey, lets go to the loser's table." Instead, it is a someone discovering that they happen to be at the loser's table and did not realize it until it was too late.
Whenever you are the best in the room, it doesn't mean you are superior, it just means you happened to be surrounded by people that were not as good as you. That ALWAYS happens. It is the what it means to win.
I am als
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. Winning only means that that your competition wasn't up to snuff.
OT, but not really: You can apply the same info to eBay auctions. Once it's over, all that you actually know is the highest price the losing bidder would have paid, not how much the winner would have.
It's funny that at a quick first glance you think you know all about something, but after thinking about it awhile (*IF* you bother to), you realize you actually learned nothing about it at all. That's surprisingly disconcerting.
Winning isn't important. Trying your very best and demonstrating real skill is what's important.
... in the long run. In the short term, trouncing all over your opponent can
A medal for neatness (Score:2)
When you were born on third base and think you hit a home run.
https://youtu.be/Kn283OjPb1g [youtu.be]
Interesting but not universally true. (Score:2)
I've been praised for being smart my whole life and in the few situations where I was in a position in an exam in which I was privy to some of the answers, I intentionally threw those answers as to not interfere with my test score.
I can't say I've ever cheated on a test.
Smart = bad (Score:2)
Maybe the study is legitimate, but it feels a lot like what it says in the title. We should all be average, grey, boring, conforming individuals, and being smart is something you just shouldn't talk about because that is bad.
Allow me to disagree. Being smart is good. And why shouldn't you praise kids for something they do well? We do it in every other aspect of their existence, after all... But only being smart is ruled out as something you shouldn't discuss - as if it were something to be ashamed of.
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I just think they are missing the key part. Its not praising your kids for being smart that is the issue - its hanging a lot of expectations on that. 'You are smart, I expect you to follow this standard path'
Ideal amount of challenge (Score:2)
Allow me to disagree. Being smart is good. And why shouldn't you praise kids for something they do well? We do it in every other aspect of their existence, after all...
The answer is simple if you want to talk in generalizations. Obviously specific individuals may respond uniquely to any given circumstance. It's ok to praise but you can overdo it. The trick is finding the happy medium where you are praising enough to generate confidence but not enough so that they lose drive or behave badly. If someone is constantly telling you you are crap, most children are eventually going to internalize that and believe it to some degree. (certain religions thrive on taking advant
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That's the key. You praise your kids for what they DO. Not what they are.
Here, let me fix that for you.... (Score:2)
Studies praised for being groundbreaking are more likely to be fraudulent, or at least hyped out of all proportion to their actual rigor and analytical strength.
Paying = cheating ? (Score:2)
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
So does that mean they cheat more? Seems like a logical question to ask...
Not quite right (Score:2)
Good job "self esteem" fad, you broke (Score:2)
U r smrt (Score:2)
Praise kids for being hard-working rather than smart.
They gave two groups the same easy puzzle. After finishing, half were praised for being smart, the other half for working hard.
When then given a much harder puzzle, kids praised as smart gave up sooner than did those praised as hard workers.
It is no surprise such might attempt to cheat to maintain their official visage.
Praise effort not success (Score:2)
Kids as young as age 3 appear to behave differently when told "You are so smart" vs. "You did very well this time"...
I've read that the current wisdom is that you should praise kids for their effort rather than success. That is, you shouldn't say, "I'm proud of you because you're smart," or "I'm proud of you because you did well this time," but instead "I'm proud of you because I know how hard you tried. You really worked hard on that."
I think it kind of makes sense. Someone might complain that this is more "participation trophy" nonsense, but the idea isn't to pretend kids won something when they didn't. The idea is
watch out for Fixed Mindset... (Score:2)
I read Carol Dweck's "MindSet"... in all the books I've reading during a self-help kick, I think its identification of Fixed Mindsets vs Growth Mindsets is the most useful concept, both for my own growth as a former-semi-precocious child, and how I deal with kids these days
Precocious kids are prone to developed a Fixed Mindset, feeling that their intelligence and abilities are intrinsic, critical to why they are special, maybe even why they are loved. So the result of praising intelligence as "oh you're so
Fear of failure sucks too. (Score:2)
Now that my kids are entering school, I wonder about this topic a lot. The thing that stinks is that there aren't really any do-overs with this stuff and you only find out if you did the right thing years later. Our current approach has been to praise good work where appropriate and make it clear that it takes hard work to keep producing consistent good work. Allowing a kid to make mistakes while keeping them working hard enough to do well is a big balancing act that I'm still struggling with.
Telling your k
Lucky you can handle this in a pedagocical manner (Score:2)
Last week, my son approached me with a conclusive proof that P=NP. At first I thought it couldn't hurt to give him a little praise for that, but I luckily managed to get a hold of myself and instead told the little moron to fuck off. As a father you have to be an unpleasable demigod to your kids, an existential monument they can never even dream of catching up to, although they are obliged to try relentlessly, and the responsible parent I am I have no problem to embrace this role to its fullest. ...
that an
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Love it, but I have no mod points.
Personal Experience (Score:2)
I grew up with my parents telling me I was smart and special. I was bored at school. Being labeled smart made me lazy. I turned in maybe a third of my homework (I did homework if I thought I needed help with the material), but aced the tests so I rarely got below an A-. This made my parents mad because they couldn't punish for an A-. Admittedly I was a geek, reading the encyclopedia for leisure and performing all sorts of science experiments.
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My experience was similar, though I only put in an effort in subjects that interested me, so I graduated with just above a C average. I always scored high on standardized tests, and got As in what I enjoyed. It wasn't until my first semester in college that I realized that I was paying for this shit, so I should put forth some effort...I think it was a simple lack of maturity, but my attitude toward learning other things changed around that time.
Quotes from my Grandma (Score:2)
"If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?"
That one, and my favorite from her was when I got spanked, and she found out it I wasn't guilty...
"That's for the time you didn't get caught"
That came after my mom woke me in the middle of the night to beat my ass after stepping in some dog shit on the way to the outhouse (small cottage in Ontario, CN), and thought I had don it. The noise woke Grandma, who came out and said, "that's dogshit", followed by the line above. Adults didn't apologize to kids back in my da
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Bingo.
People of mediocre intellect study hard and ace tests.
People of superior intellect learn early that it usually means less effort to find out how to cheat without getting caught.
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being smart isn't cool. And for God's sake totally ignore your civics class, leave government to the ruling class.
That makes me wonder ... maybe they didn't cheat at all but just say they did as it gives them "street cred"