'The Death of the MBA' (axios.com) 162
An anonymous reader shares a report: U.S. graduate business schools -- once magnets for American and international students seeking a certain route to a high income -- are in an existential crisis. They are losing droves of students who are balking at sky-high tuition and, in the case of international applicants, turned off by President Trump's politics. The once-venerated MBA is going the way of the diminished law degree, pushed aside by tech education. Graduates of the top 25 or so MBA schools still command the elite Wall Street and corporate jobs they always did, but the hundreds of others are scrambling, and some schools are shutting down their programs. Survivors are often offering new touchy-feely degrees like "master of social innovation." [...] In the more than 350 programs that didn't make the top ranks, rising tuition costs and smaller returns in the form of employment and income have forced a rethink of the traditional MBA degree.
Over supply (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well, people pondered which part of the workforce won't be outsourced and (rightfully) came to the conclusion "probably the jobs that handle the outsourcing".
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Several of their job postings still say "MBA Preferred"
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Wanted: 'All the toilets in grand central station clean licker', MBA preferred.
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non union min wage + $1/hr added for the night shit.
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No one hires MBA's, it's just a nice bulletpoint to have. It says you're willing to do even more busy work and you likely have debt...and will be a company slave.
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This sounds right. It also explains why the top programs are more thriving than ever: essentially there are proper MBAs that have real value in the market (HBS is the quintessential example) and then there are MBAs from second-tier places that have dramatically less value.
I'm a foreigner, so I have to ask (Score:5, Funny)
Apologies, English isn't my first language, does that mean we get to shoot MBAs now or do we still have to wait for them to die naturally?
Re:I'm a foreigner, so I have to ask (Score:5, Funny)
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It's poaching at worst. They just haven't raised the limit to one.
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In my state, there's an additional fee to get the MBA Endorsement added to your hunting license.
Re:I'm a foreigner, so I have to ask (Score:5, Funny)
Especially if one has his/her hands on an Excel spreadsheet.
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Usually they give it away by the way they dress.
Why they come with the convenient noose already around their neck, ready to be strung up is beyond me, though. Suicidal much?
Winner Takes All (Score:5, Insightful)
The MBA schools promoted the ideology of Winner Takes Everything, Cut All Corners, Cook All Books, Outsource the Universe, Price Over Value, Chare the Taxpayer, and Magic Algorithms will Solve Everything.
May they roast slowly in the hell to which they have reduced our inheritance.
Re:Winner Takes All (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Winner Takes All (Score:5, Funny)
Come on, most MBA courses have some kind of ethics module these days. OK, your score gets subtracted from your overall grade, but it's a start.
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Come on, most MBA courses have some kind of ethics module these days. OK, your score gets subtracted from your overall grade, but it's a start.
Most of the traders who were climbing the ladder fast at Enron were MBA's, so I would say that the "ethics module" part of an MBA degree has little effect upon the ethics of the students. The cocaine culture and run away sole less short term gain greed there was evidence of the lost generation of greedy jerks with MBA's that Enron represented best. This same generation of greedy self centered cocaine powered jerks is now becoming pervasive in US politics and is to no small extent the reason why a self cente
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The Ethics portion of the Modern MBA was a response to ENRON.
For my school every course had a portion explaining ethical issues, reminding that such decisions will affect human life. And even if the numbers show a net positive there may be someone who is negatively affected and those who are needs to be worked with to minimize their affect.
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For an MBA to have any value it needs to be part time whilst working in industry to fully understand the repercussions of any decision that can not be put into an idiots spread sheet. Simply but complex things, like how cutting support and services, whilst saving money, will cost you customers in the end (so your far smaller customer base can now be services by you small customer support services, which you then of course cut, to further attack your customer base, till no customers). Easy to put the cost sa
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Tripe. Actual experience is certainly good to have (do they still admit people straight from their bachelors' degree in the US?) but I don't see why it's any different if that's acquired before doing the course.
Or do you think a problem with the company's cash flow will conveniently crop up while they're doing the finance modul
Re:Winner Takes All (Score:5, Insightful)
They also teach students to care about nothing but the short-term bottom line and screw long-term side effects...
That's pretty much what I heard from a friend who was sent to do an MBA by her employer. She decided it was valuable education, because it taught her pretty much what not to do, as a manager with ~15 years experience.
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I guess you actually never took the MBA classes did you?
Let's not talk about "earning potential" (Score:3)
What exactly could you expect to learn from a "master of social engineering?" Forsooth, you'd be better off in a class of Calligraphy, or locking yourself in a room for a year with The Complete Works of Shakespeare.
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Forsooth, you'd be better off in a class of Calligraphy, or locking yourself in a room for a year with The Complete Works of Shakespeare.
Wouldn't laugh too loud... if I remember right, Steve Jobs took a class or two of Calligraphy, and said it influenced a lot of how he saw things.
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So... (Score:2, Funny)
So if Trump is responsible for fewer MBAs, he was worth voting for.
Click bait title. (Score:1)
Graduates of the top 25 or so MBA schools still command the elite Wall Street and corporate jobs they always did, but the hundreds of others are scrambling, and some schools are shutting down their programs.
Come on. It is not dead till all the business schools go out of business.
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It's not dead until they (MBAs) are all half hung, drawn, quartered, the parts burned and the ashes buried under crossroads.
Market oversaturated, culling begins (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Market oversaturated, culling begins (Score:4, Informative)
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Nicely put, utterly wrong. The original US MBA Programs didn't come out of the Business or Engineering Schools; they were a supplement to traditionally low budget Humanities Studies. Just moldy books and blackboards.
"This school of business and public administration was originally conceived as a school for diplomacy and government service on the model of the French Ecole des Sciences Politiques. The goal was an institution of higher learning that would offer a master of arts degree in the humanities field,
Willy Loman (Score:5, Funny)
I was expecting something a little more dramatic. Maybe an MBA who sold off all his earthly belongings in order to build a Bitcoin mining rig only to be cooked to death, surrounded by overheated GPUs.
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Like an MBA could ever build a mining rig.
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He watched a YouTube video on how to do it.
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Like an MBA could ever get past all the cool YouTube videos of snakebites and mango worms to search for guides.
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You have a point.
Although I would have appreciated it if you'd provided a link to videos of snakebites and mango worms.
Damn (Score:2)
And they made a minor update to it in June 2017, too. Sure, going from 1.6GHz to 1.8GHz was not much of an update, but still.
MBAs are dangerous (Score:2, Insightful)
MBAs who are ignorant of what customers need and want generate short term profits at the expense of long term success. They don't know how to measure or put a price on customer happiness, and often trade customer happiness for some increase in profit. They aren't aware that what customers are really buying is happiness.
student loans are going to pop (Score:2)
student loans are going to pop with lots' of hopeless deadbeats.
Further degrading education and employability. (Score:4, Interesting)
We have to charge an arm a leg and a testicle for a degree!
Why?
Because the market will bear it!
The market's not bearing it. Revenues are falling off!
Okay, scrap the degree program and come up with easier degrees.
But those degrees don't actually deliver any value.
Shut up! GIMME TOUCHY-FEELY!
People are pissed.
Why?
The touchy-feely degrees aren't in demand because they have no actual utility in the real world.
Tough shit! We got our money!
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Not an "easier" but more affordable degree. People aren't going to go into six-figure debt for degrees anymore.
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Sorry, but that's bull.
While taxes on property have gone up some, and salaries have inched upward over time, general day-to-day costs for facilities haven't dramatically increased.
Regulatory compliance is a giant slap in the face, but those costs ammortize out over time.
Most of the rest of what you mention is fluff that has nothing to do with education and can be gotten by without, even if people "expect" it.
It's there because the institution can afford to put it in, rather than telling entitled students "t
Obligatory Elon Musk Quote (Score:1)
I have a MBA... (Score:5, Informative)
I got my MBA a few years ago from the local Really Expensive Private University, when 40 was just around the corner and I wanted to add another leg to my stool before I became "old" by tech-world standards. I very much value the body of knowledge that I learned, but there are several serious problems with the people chasing and offering it today.
A MBA is like a can of car wax. If you put it on a Corvette, you'll make something great. If you put it on a turd, all you'll have is a shiny turd. I have a STEM degree + 15 years in HPC, and I think the MBA definitely helped me make better, wiser decisions.
By contrast, there were several "MBA's" (in the Dilbertesque sense) in the MBA program right out of central casting. They couldn't write a line of code, couldn't turn a wrench, couldn't do anything useful, but they had executive hair, wore fancy suits, and constantly "networked" and looked for "synergy". They wanted a MBA strictly as a gateway to wealth and power.
They're aided and abetted by universities who are fighting to break into the game. Why shouldn't they? It's relatively low cost (doesn't require expensive labs or facilities like STEM does), people will throw mortgage-size checks at you for the privilege of attending, and you might luck up and get a rich alumni who donates back someday. And they kept raising tuition every year, faster than inflation, faster than salaries grew.
My cousin graduated with a law degree right when the law market crashed, and I recognized similar signs of doom creeping into the MBA field. Just like the bloom in law schools, there was a bloom in MBA schools, from tiny never-heard-of-them-before private universities and on-line schools, taking cash from every marginal MBA student-wanna-be out there.
I don't regret getting my MBA, even though I haven't seen much more than cost-of-living increases since graduation. I learned a tremendous amount and enjoyed it a lot (there can be economic geeks just as much as science geeks or IT geeks). And I made a substantial chunk of change on the stock market using what I knew. But with a MBA from a good school costing $100k nowadays, you're much better off just taking $300 to the local used book store and reading them.
The MBA wasn't a "gateway to wealth" because of the degree itself, but because of the caliber of student trying to attain it. I'm sure the same type of people who chase an IT degree for wealth in the 90's and chased a JD/MBA for wealth in the 00's will find another degree to chase and run into the ground soon enough. My bet is on "data science". I already see a few junior varsity universities in our area offering a degree to any comer who can code in BASIC, and I'm sure DeVry's and University of Phoenix will be offering a degree soon enough.
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My bet is on "data science".
This. See also "business analytics" or "health informatics". SSDD, just a different flavor of the same snake oil.
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I remember one of my first encounters with a PHB MBA. The company had set up an overly complicated central review process for desktop PC requests.
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I agree with you. I am a techie that started an MBA program but didn't finish because it made me ill. However, I learned enough from the program so thatI now can speak finance and can talk to the finance people about accounts, journals, depreciation, credits, debits, POs, AP, AR, EFT, 10K, SOX compliance, stock market concepts, etc... It helped me better craft project proposals since I know what numbers the MBA execs like to see like 5-year TCO and lifecycle predictions. I learned the technical side of fin
Couldn't have happened to a nicer degree. (Score:5, Insightful)
Couldn't have happened to a nicer degree.
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Don't conflate the body of knowledge itself, with the stereotypical people who chase the credentials. I have a MBA, and you can be an economics geek or strategy geek just like you can be an IT geek or science geek.
That said, yeah, there are a lot of preening greedy narcissists who are attracted to the degree like moths to a flame.
Not that surprising. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's been the go-to for school graduates who didn't know what to do with their lives but wanted to have a higher degree in something that can possibly make a lot of money. However Universities adapted for the influx not by implementing failure rates that force 70% of the students out of class, so that only the best remain, but by increasing the number of possible seats. Which resulted in thousands of BA bachelor degrees and masters (to some extend). All that in an economy that cries for qualified (blue collar) workers and engineers and already had plenty of managers. Well wasted tax money if you ask me, which makes me think that subsidizing all education is not a good idea in the end.
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While most students look down on the business students (in Germany), all (almost) the business guys get a job after 1/2 a year. Yes the situation is better in computer science, where you can choose what you want to do after graduating. Still if there would be a shortage in engineers, we would have higher entry level income in CS, but it is growing slowly. Also tuition free universities are there to allow people to study what they want regardless of their income or their parents income. Also education is a h
And nothing of value was lost... (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously, most businesses don't need to be "administered". Administrating is for the conglomerates, and although I'm sure conglomerates need new canon fodder to back-fill their management ranks, it certainly doesn't have the number of chairs to support the multitude of MBA conferring organizations that are out there today. Even among huge conglomerates long McDonalds and Costco, they often draw their executives from line workers not freshly minted MBAs...
For the non-conglomerate business, the reason they often fail is for lack of vision, not lack of administration...
As for the "accounting" MBAs, well, do we need to engineer more Joint Energy Development Investment Limited Partnerships, or ChewCos [wikipedia.org]?
As for the "finance" MBAs, well, do conglomerates need more leveraged buyouts, or engineer more Credit Default Swaps [wikipedia.org]?
As for these second tier MBA schools that can't attract students? Nothing of value was lost [youtube.com]...
Re:And nothing of value was lost... (Score:5, Informative)
As a self-taught "administrator" who's run two small businesses, I'd have to disagree. There is in fact quite a bit to learn about running a business - accounting, legal (especially labor and tax codes), organizational, employee management, etc.
However, I'd say about 80% of this would be better suited taught in a high-school level course. The accounting is virtually identical to running your personal finances, just a lot more formal. Everyone has to pay taxes and occasionally deal with a legal infraction or subpeona. Organizational skills and how to accept and/or delegate responsibility is something that everyone should learn. And managing people (working with, encouraging, watching out for, detecting problems, reprimanding) is important at a family and relationship level too.
The remaining stuff specific to running a business, I'd say you could pick up from a few night courses at your local adult community college. Or in my case, by asking an accountant friend and a lawyer friend a lot of questions, and listening to advice from someone who'd actually taken employee management courses. There are lots of little facts and tidbits (e.g. what percentage of your budget should be going to payroll or marketing? How do you calculate and deduct payroll taxes? What documentation do I need to collect and submit when I hire an employee?) which have very specific answers but aren't all located in a single easy-to-find place. One thing you learn pretty quickly running your own business is that time is your most valuable resource. And if you can get a neatly organized reference which answers most of these questions for a few thousand dollars, it's well worth paying for it just because it saves you the time of stumbling around the web trying to find it all yourself.
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I believe many businesses require better administration, or at least better processes.
Full disclosure: I have two degrees(bachelors and masters) in engineering, a science degree, and am just about to finish my MBA.
The MBA has been invaluable in learning how to get better efficiency in the company where I work. Optimizing manufacturing processes, market based design and research, and even focusing on products with the most margin in our business operations have made tangible differences in a business that
Hallelujiah! (Score:3)
the real problem with MBAs is they are uneducated (Score:3)
This is why Musk has less than 12 total in all of his companies.
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Musk is not a model capitalist, yet (Score:2)
Musk has had a number of pretty big setbacks in his businesses, and he hasn't been doing it all that long. Mostly what he has done is attracted huge amounts of subsidies and investments. He is delivering something which is more than a lot of kickstarter bubbles do, but the most successful venture (the cars) is still a long way from profitability and fame doesn't keep the lights on.
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I am so stealing that.
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He had 2 successful businesses (zip2, and X/Paypal) PRIOR to the current 2.
SpaceX is not only profitable, but has actually saved America and the world loads of money vs. the $300 million that NASA BEGGED him to apply for. In addition, he has spent his own money and is nearing the launch of the Falcon Heavy (America's 3rd largest spacecraft, while carrying our 2nd heaviest payload), while working on what will be the world's largest launch vehicle, ever.
Re: Musk is not a model capitalist, yet (Score:2)
Yea, sure, totally... (Score:2)
The best advice I've ever heard is to trust your local want ads the most.
And for many many years now, most of the ads have been for MBAs and nursing positions.
Some places do have a big tech industry, but most don't, and offshoring hasn't helped.
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>The best advice I've ever heard is to trust your local want ads the most.
But you still have to compare the cost of the required education to the expected income of the targeted position, and then adjust for the non-financial factors like 'will this job drain me of my will to live?' or 'will I end up wrecking my back?'.
As a general trend, anything you choose to do that involves caring for the elderly probably has a decent future as society greys... but that just means the job will be there, not that it's
Dubya had an MBA (Score:1)
The financial crisis of 2007–2008, also known as the global financial crisis and the 2008 financial crisis, is considered by many economists to have been the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s
Odd (Score:3)
The prospective foreign students I know (and I know quite a few) aren't coming to US because of the leftist antics at American universities. They come from countries where there have been communist civil wars and many have have family members murdered by the communists. Masked thugs in black running around streets and universities beating teachers and students they disagree with..........well, that's straight out of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.
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The prospective foreign students I know (and I know quite a few) aren't coming to US because of the rightist antics of the American government. They come from countries where there have been right-wing instigated coups and civil wars and many have had family members murdered by right-wing death squads. Masked soldiers and police in black running around streets and universities beating teachers and students they disagree with..........well, that's straight out of the Chilean coup playbook.
There have been atr
I came at this a little differently (Score:2)
So, I started out my career with software. I've been getting paid to build things out of bricks made of C++, Erlang, Ruby, PHP and a few other languages since about 2003. Over the years, I've risen to a level where my day is spent managing people and direction for a large enterprise. I recently enrolled in an MBA program. What I've learned so far has been immediately, and immensely valuable.
If you've ever seen two people arguing about the same thing, because they both used words that meant something difffer
Brand dilution.. (Score:2)
Not of a specific company's brand of course.. but the "MBA" brand. There's countless stories about clueless managers out there that picked up their "MBA" from a 3 month online course. Even if the fraction of such people is small, they're the ones that got reported on the most and now anyone who sees "MBA" automatically assumes "idiot who couldn't make it into a real business school" (even though the degree from real business schools is still MBA..)
Not sure what there is to be done about that. My first su
This is only a natural consequence of ... (Score:3)
... the last decades of "development" (decay?) in the US. I'm not really surprised. These days I wouldn't touch college with a ten-foot pole if I were living in the US. You're in debt for life, academic job chances and their stability are dwindling and as a heterosexual male you run the risk of being burned at the stake in an instant for being too interested in the ladies.
Here in Germany however it's an entirely different game.
I just enrolled in a BsC programm called Media CompSci. The university [hs-duesseldorf.de] is free, the programm is awesome, the campus is exeptionally well put together (they just moved to a brand new campus), services are excellent and on top of that I actually get to *save* money, because semster fees get you a student ID / status that comes with many benefits, including free public transport throughout the state. On the plus side the ladies quota in the CompScis is up and since my faculty has "media" in it's name we can't complain anyway. I get to flirt with girls less than half my age - very nice :-). And if I want I can walk 50 meters to the other faculty buliding and start my own extra MBA programm at no extra cost. Or whatever else I'm interested in.
Bottom line: That young USias (especially males) are steering clear of universities is no big surprise to anyone observing what has been happening lately. I totally get it.
My 2 eurocents.
Re:Fuck the universities (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, we have arrived at the point where you cannot recover the cost for a degree a while ago, where it's actually going to net you more money in the end when you learn a trade and starting to work basically when you get out of school rather than continuing to a university and start at 25-28 with a mountain of debt on your back.
Eventually people will most likely say "fuck that" and turn their back to universities, realizing that they're better off in the end starting at a lower level entry position. In the end, your degree doesn't really mean much, you don't start as high as someone with one but where you end up, and at what age, depends more on how good you really are.
Re:Fuck the universities (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't assume 18 year olds make rational decisions.
There are many popular degrees that have never had a positive ROI.
Many kids aren't planning at all, they are just there for the party.
Re:Fuck the universities (Score:5, Insightful)
I know MBAs are a favorite punching bag on Slashdot, but my experience in getting one was very positive.
*However*, it's not something that is going to directly result in a pay raise or a new job opportunity, like a bachelor's degree might. Most people don't see the value in an MBA because you can't immediately and directly monetize it, but that doesn't mean it has no value.
I feel like I learned more about business during my MBA than I did in all my undergraduate years, and I use more of that knowledge every day than anything I learned by studying irrelevant classes the university foisted on my 19 year old brain, which has since forgotten them.
Like I said, I know /. hates MBAs, but not everything valuable can be easily and immediately quantified.
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" but not everything valuable can be easily and immediately quantified."
The university has no problem attaching a dollar amount to it, though.
Re:Fuck the universities (Score:5, Insightful)
MBAs aren't universally air thieves. Of the fifty or so I've worked with, one wasn't an idiot.
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There's always an exception, some good people get a bum steer early in their career and end up with an MBA.
Mostly, I thought MBAs were for those too clueless to get a real job and hold it long enough to learn some things, so they go to school to learn about the whole business process and after that, hopefully they're not completely clueless when their daddy installs them in upper management.
People who aren't being artificially advanced to the top really should learn enough along the promotion ladder to not
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Hey people! Stop looking, I have here someone who said he already found the decent MBA!
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Was a MIT EE first. Likely got a lot dumber with the MBA, but had enough margin to afford it.
Re:Fuck the universities (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with you, actually.
However, I believe it does depend on *why* you get the MBA.
If, for instance, you get an MBA to boost an already progressing career, wherein you're moving from the masses to management, then it makes perfect sense to get one - doubly so if, say, you just became a junior manager and you want to push your career as far as you can take it. It actually helps you navigate the corporate world fairly well (as long as you have a solid intellect and a good eye on culture.)
On the other hand, if you're getting one just because your brain translates it to "$$$$$!!!!!!!one!!", then you'll get approximately nowhere with it - at least not without a lot of hard knocks at first.
All that said, I once worked under someone in a highly technical position (and in a very tech-intensive department), but her only claim to any sort of professional competence was her MBA... and nothing else. She was a nice enough person, but have you ever had to explain/justify any technical decisions to someone like that? It's a royal pain in the ass. Her lack of knowledge, experience, or even competency in the field(s) of the employees she oversaw also made for one very weird culture and work environment... somewhat dysfunctional in quite a few aspects. Little wonder that a once-tight team had pretty much disintegrated within the space of 18 months (I believe I was the last to leave), and that the replacements were not quite up to the tasks before them.
Long story short, because of this, I've come to the conclusion that an MBA is a great addition, but it makes for a really lousy foundation.
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What was your undergrad subject, if you don't mind me asking.
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double between Comp Sci and IB
Re:Fuck the universities (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's gotten worse too. Used to be they'ed go for a semester or year and get booted for failing. Now they just switch majors until they get down to one that will let them pass at their level of effort.
If a kid wants to party, (s)he should get it out of their system while working a shit job and paying rent.
The real nightmare is 'free college' but continued complete lack of academic standards. No nation in the world has that combination.
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Also never underestimate parents pushing their kids to get a degree. A majority of families consider it a failing that their kid doesn't go to college and get a degree.
Children of irrational parents making irrational decisions, who would have thought?
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Many times universities will tell students how great a degree (every degree) is, and actively encourage them to enroll in useless ones. A new student reasonably assumes someone titled "councilor" will try to give good council, but no. The administration and professors and everyone surrounding the students all have their own agenda.
Still considered second tier. (Score:1)
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Trades don't have the problem of being considered "highly skilled unskilled." And anyone who pushes that belief is a complete idiot. From personal experience the people who push that are the ones who are against high pay for hard dangerous work. And if someone is pushing unfriendliness to late comers? You're better off finding an apprenticeship elsewhere anyway, there's no shortage.
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You know a good way to learn about business (the kind of things they teach in an MBA)?
Get a job.
Get a job with a smaller company where everyone has to wear all the hats sooner or later - stick around for 3 or 4 years, it's cheaper than school and as a bonus: you learn more. If you get lucky and find a great place, stick with it. If it's not your idea of fun after 3 or 4 years, you at least know the right questions to ask while interviewing your potential future employers.
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Most MBA programs are taken by professionals part time.
Believe it or not it is a masters degree program. That covers aspects in business that you may not have covered in your job.
It teaches people to not do the stupid things that MBA get blamed for doing while the real culprit of these things are often some over ambitious middle manager without an MBA.
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Don't quit your day job, you suck as a psychic.
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I know we're not supposed to question people's sexual orientation but... damn, universities?
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The lobotomy will hurt, I wouldn't do it.
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The text says international students hesitate to go to the USA, which reduces the number of international MBA students. I can understand that. In the present condition of the US, I am hesitant to go there. On a conference this summer in Gothenburg (Sweden), a lot of the attendees decided to not submit papers to the conference when it will be in the US and skip for another conference located outside. This is mainly due to the harassment at the border and the potential unfriendliness of locals. Even if the la
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Actually, we send our conservatives and rather right wing people. Unfortunately, even those have now doubts about your country and stay in the EU.
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Actually no. Antifa in the EU mainly target fascists. Therefore, they are not more than an annoyance and can usually be ignored. I do not know what you mean be SJW, but if you refer to people who fight for the protection of human rights, then we like human rights. That was once a thing in the US. If it is not, you will have less visitors. For the rest, I haven't heard of them that much in the media. However, we hear about mass shootings every other week, mental ill people locked up in prisons, hate crimes a