Faced With Rising Temperatures, People May Seek Asylum (axios.com) 210
Europe is already struggling to absorb an influx of refugees from war-torn Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Africa. Germany alone has taken in more than a million people since 2015. This wave of immigration has led to political upheaval, with the rise of right-wing political parties in Germany, Poland, Austria, and Hungary, among others. Now a new study, published in the journal Science, shows that the current surge in refugees may just be a preview of what's to come due in large part to global warming. From a report: At an average growing season temperature of about 68 Fahrenheit, which is the optimum one for agriculture, the number of applications for asylum was lowest. As the average temperature rose, so did the number of people from Somalia, Bangladesh and other warmer climate countries seeking asylum. But when cooler countries -- such as Serbia and Peru -- got warmer, fewer applications were received. The acceptance rate for asylum application to the EU is less than 10%. But when there was a spike in applications tied to weather fluctuations, the admittance rate rose to about 30%, suggesting agencies who evaluate the applicants find their cause worthy.
Context would be useful (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The lack of numerical data is intentional. This is low effort propaganda designed to tug at your feels by throwing a bunch of half ass speculation in your face, juxtapositioned with stock photos of starving children.
Re: (Score:1)
Exactly this. The numbers here are easy 0 refugees due to climate change the remaining due to the factors GP cited. This is just a cheap propaganda attempt
Re:Context would be useful (Score:5, Insightful)
You living in your own private fantasy land doesn't mean jack shit to reality.
Re: (Score:2)
Lack of numbers is intentional in that it hasn't happened yet and this entire premise is philosophical and not getting dragged into the exact science debate.
But your instant dismissal of something like an area being made unlivable causing mass migration (which is a prediction of most climate models for many places on the world) as propaganda has been noted. Don't worry, as your leader has said the entire climate change thing was just invented by Jhina.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't intended to make people "forget their internal divisions". On the contrary, it is supposed to stimulate and create division.
A divided people is easier to "unite" under a common rule. (In the case of CoR, meaning rule of a select pre-chosen few.)
Get the picture?
Just look at the artificial divisions that have been introduced in the last 9 years or so (coincidentally REALLY ramping up at about the time Obama was elected): the most
Re: (Score:2)
Have a nice day.
Re: (Score:2)
Who said anyting about "promoting ethnic mixing"?
I haven't stated anything even remotely like that.
Maybe a lot of the "problem" you see, is YOU imagining that other people said things they actually did not.
Re:Context would be useful (Score:5, Informative)
That would require someone do a multivariate analysis. And they won't do that because it would show civil war, oppressive governments etc are more strongly correlated to refugee flows than climate.
Actually one big driver was getting rid of people like Gaddafi who stopped migrants coming to Europe. The EU had a deal with Gaddafi. Then France and the UK toppled him and Libya became essentially a failed state.
https://www.theguardian.com/co... [theguardian.com]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Turkey also uses refugee flows as a foreign policy tool - they turn on the tap when they want more money from Europe.
https://www.euractiv.com/secti... [euractiv.com]
So how much is climate a cause? Not much. Weather probably does have some impact though - mainly because if you're going to cross the Med or walk across Europe you'd be better off doing when it's not freezing cold. But weather and climate are not the same thing.
Re:Context would be useful (Score:4)
True, but the alarmist side always trot out 'weather is not climate' whenever the weather is cold because one day's cold weather doesn't say anything about long term climate changes. Which is true - saying 'The fact it's cold means global warming isn't happening' is a dumb argument. However it's also a dumb argument to say that because it's warm on a particular day global warming must be happening is a dumb argument, but not one the alarmist side ever object to. I.e. the media are being intellectually dishonest about when they use this argument.
In this case the 'weather is not climate' distinction applies. If you're a wannabe migrant it's plausible that you're more likely leave when it is summer rather than winter because you've got less chance of freezing to death. That's responding to weather - it's 20 degrees C warmer in summer than in winter and if you want to cross the Med and walk across multiple countries that makes a difference. You're not responding to the fact that it's 0.8 degrees C warmer now than it was 100 years ago, because that makes no difference.
I.e. you're responding to weather not climate.
Re: (Score:2)
Unless there are some years without a summer (there hasn't been one for 200 years) that's irrelevant when looking at trends.
It'll influence a decision to go now or to wait three months, but not whether to go at all.
Re:Context would be useful (Score:5, Informative)
3) Inside the EU the migrants can claim asylum and even if they are refused they're unlikely to be deported
Using an Anti-EU tabloid as a reference doesn't really help this point here. The fact is while few migrants are deported in figures, that is only because the official figures count people who are forced out using the country's resources. e.g. 580 people were deported from Germany in 2016. While that number is low 55,000 ended up leaving voluntarily after their asylum claim was denied.
Deporting people is expensive so it doesn't happen a lot, so why do people leave voluntarily? Well it's actually damn hard to find even a place to live let alone work as an illegal immigrant in many EU countries, and as soon as your asylum claim is rejected you don't qualify for any state sponsored aid / housing anymore either. Not exactly a good thing when winter comes.
4) The numbers of asylum seekers who are likely to find work is minimal. Of the million plus migrants who arrived in 2016 only 54 found a job
Wow following up an express article with Breitbart. That is class.
Speaking of I was working next to a building in Germany which got converted into temporary accommodation for people who were granted asylum. The building went in about Feb 2016 in quite a damn small town. Of the 50 people in there, more than half of them had a job by the time I left Germany (we shared some services with them including security and catering so chatted to them a bit). I find it amazing that half of the number of that reliable source all came from one little building in one little town in a little corner of Germany. They must be extremely lucky.
It's a shame that Breitbart doesn't have a printed edition, I'm running low on toilet paper.
I.e. if Turkey or Libya open the floodgates then there's nothing the EU can do legally to stop large numbers of people being dependent on benefits in the EU indefinitely.
i.e. you get EU legal advice from far right anti-immigration and anti-EU fake news sources. Shame on you and shame on whoever modded you insightful.
Re: (Score:3)
The numbers of asylum seekers who are likely to find work is minimal. Of the million plus migrants who arrived in 2016 only 54 found a job
http://www.breitbart.com/londo... [breitbart.com]
Funny that you think that, given that the source [google.com] linked in the Breitbart article mentioned 400 full time jobs and 1800 interns. And that is from the companies that responded, not all did. Besides, why would you imagine that people who don't speak German and who have little in the way of relevant qualifications would be working in the top few companies in the country? How many people working in top Silicon Valley companies today arrived in America as asylum seekers within the past 18 months?
Re: (Score:2)
https://translate.google.com/t... [google.com]
In the question of permanent jobs for refugees, hopes are increasingly resting on medium-sized companies and craft enterprises. As a survey of this newspaper revealed, the vast majority of companies listed in the German stock index (Dax) has not yet hired refugees. Only the German Post stated to have until the beginning of June 50 refugees and thus a significant size hired.
And the link goes to this page
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wir... [faz.net]
Which says "Dax companies hire only 54 refugees"
Also look at this
"Most Dax companies also point out in the FAZ survey that language skills and qualifications of the refugees do not correspond to the requirement profiles. That is why many Dax representatives are involved in corresponding projects. Probably the biggest one is probably the network "Wir zusammen", which the founder and founder of the German Internet
Re: (Score:2)
So you agree then that the statement you made, that only 54 refugees in Germany had found jobs, is nonsense?
Re: (Score:2)
No, that's what FAZ reported here
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wir... [faz.net]
And even the We Together initiative involving 96 companies only seems to have got a couple of thousand of them off the streets.
"Most Dax companies also point out in the FAZ survey that language skills and qualifications of the refugees do not correspond to the requirement profiles. That is why many Dax representatives are involved in corresponding projects. Probably the biggest one is probably the network "Wir zusammen", which the founder and
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Brietbart is not a reliable source of information.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
More than 54 have jobs, and many of the rest are in training to prepare them for work. See, Germany doesn't just invite them in and then ignore them, it deals with the situation actively.
Re: (Score:2)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
"As long as companies create more jobs than the number of refugees entering unemployment, that balances out the overall rate, even if it's not necessarily refugees taking up the positions being created," said Stefan Kipar, an economist at Bayerische Landesbank in Munich. "If growth in new positions slows down, you could start to see it feed through."
At the height of the refugee crisis in 2015, the Germany's Labor Ministry predicted an increase in joblessness already for last year. Instead, the number of people out of work has fallen.
Forecasts compiled by Bloomberg show economists predict unemployment will remain unchanged at 6.1 percent this year, before picking up to 6.2 percent in 2018. The Bundesbank is more optimistic. It sees the rate falling to 5.8 percent next year.
As for refugees in integration and language classes, they're filed away as job seekers and will probably stay off the unemployment register for years to come. Part of the explanation lies in Germany's apprenticeship system -- a combination of classroom education and on-the-job training -- that serves as an entryway to the country's labor market, and also represents a high barrier for foreigner with little or no knowledge of the local language.
According to labor agency projections, it will take as long as six years for a refugee to complete German classes, vocational school and internships to be considered a skilled worker, and potentially a lot longer to find a job. After 15 years, refugee employment is estimated to average about 70 percent.
Gee, that sounds super!
Re:Context would be useful (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually this is a good point, but you're presupposing that these two causes of refugee flight are mutually exclusive. In fact they work synergistically. Environmental stress creates economic disruption, creating political unrest, encouraging people predisposed to fight oppressive governments rebel. That in turn prompting oppressive responses which exacerbate the underlying crisis and further erode the regime's credibility. This takes resources and focus away from the response to the underlying disaster, and in any case the inevitable favoritism and corruption push the regime to the brink of collapse.
Take Syria, a perfect storm scenario. It's had a horrifically brutal, but *stable* regime for decades. A multi-year drought depopulated the countryside, further reducing its own agricultural output and creating large urban concentrations of unemployed young men ripe for radicalization. Then a transient spike in global wheat prices created shortages of subsidized bread and huge price spikes in market prices. This was
It's hard to say how much better an honest and generally popular Syrian government would have weathered the crisis, but this much is clear: while oppressive governments *can* produce refugees on their own, they don't necessarily do so. But put a country where people hate and fear their government under stress, and you'll get refugees.
Re: (Score:2)
That stuff comes into play *after* the regime has been destabilized.
Re: (Score:2)
Would be useful if this were given some numerical context. How do the numbers of refugees due to climate compare to the numbers of refugees due to war and due to oppressive governments?
Probably not that easy as things are interrelated. Climate change causes drought. Drought causes poor food yield. Poor harvests cause higher prices and starvation. High food prices and starvation cause civil unrest. Civil unrest cause refugees.
Re: (Score:2)
I sure as hell aren't seeing people flock to our winter. And let's be real - the cold here will kill someone far faster than any of these warm spots. The grasping at straws of the climate craze movement to convince we have a coming disaster (and need to hand over all our money to fix it) is gettin
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Starvation is not a very ethical means of contraception. And yet that appears to be what you are advocating.
Re:Overpopulation in Africa, the Middle East, & (Score:2)
You fail at basic math.
If each person working can produce enough food for 0.9 people, having a thousand times as many people will NOT help everyone suddenly not be hungry.
If there isn't enough food or capacity for growing enough food for everyone NOW, the solution is to have less people, not more.
Re:Overpopulation in Africa, the Middle East, & (Score:3, Insightful)
It's either starvation or actual contraception, which the right can't get behind because it would upset the "every sperm is sacred" crowd. So they ignore the contraception option...
Re:Overpopulation in Africa, the Middle East, & (Score:2)
Firm control? No, but an essential part of control, certainly. Trump or not, the Republicans can't afford to lose the support of the religious right. They need every vote they can get, on top of the electoral college advantage and gerrymandering, to retain power with a minority of voters supporting them. Politically, the Republicans are living on reclaimed land and a break in any part of any dam will let in a tidal wave of leftism. They've been very lucky that the religious right has been able to look past
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Good advice to those people.
Now, let's talk about everyone else, the people who don't live in those places. Let's say someone over there ignores your advice and brings children into the mix. What should you do about it?
Kill them? That would fix the problem.
Leave them alone, but kill them if they come to our, more-inhabitable area?
Let them migrate with all the same freedom that we have to migrate, and com
Suspicious reasoning (Score:5, Interesting)
Is it really climate that drives people from Somalia or Bangladesh? Or is it instead the fact those countries are pretty unstable and people want to get to a more stable area?
Especially if you are talking refugees, and not simply immigration requests. "Refugee" implies something catastrophic they are fleeing, not slightly warmer weather.
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
There's your problem: lack of imagination. They're not running away from slightly warmer weather, they're running away from the secondary effects of that warmer weather: Too much rain/not enough rain, crop losses due to higher temps, etc.
You really need to broaden your horizons dude. Or maybe learn how to use Google.
Bangladesh crop yields up, not down (Score:5, Insightful)
They're not running away from slightly warmer weather, they're running away from the secondary effects of that warmer weather: Too much rain/not enough rain, crop losses due to higher temps
The truth is those factors alone are not enough to convince most people to move. Several years of bad crops and California farmers are still farming.
You aren't suffering from a lack of imagination, just a lack of understanding the overall conditions of the regions people are leaving. "Poor crop yield" is so far down the list it doesn't even register, and makes very little sense for some of the areas talked about (like Bangladesh).
In fact, it turns out that Bangladesh crop yields are going up [bdnews24.com], if you look at potatoes the output is up - in fact the real problem with crops this past year was not warmer weather, but flooding. Even so total agricultural production was up 2.9% overall, so why would people be refugees from Bangladesh based on crop yields when they are up?
Bangladesh production *down* (Score:2, Informative)
From your link, the headline:
"Bangladesh’s food production [i.e. in total] dropped by 943,000 tonnes in fiscal 2016-17"
"past year was not warmer weather, but flooding"
Yeh right, flooding, the predicted affect of global warming, so what's your point?
" so why would people be refugees from Bangladesh based on crop yields when they are up"
Because they're hungry, and your attempt to mislead people here by lying doesn't fill their stomachs. I mean really SuperKendall, were you hoping nobody would google the
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Flooding because of warmer climate? ... why don't you look on a map where it is, then you easily should be able to guess their main staple food.
Or simple flooding as Bangladesh is experiencing floods quite regularily?
Looking at potatoes does not really make sense in Bangladesh either
Re: (Score:2)
Not to mention that lack of rain/crops can lead to increased poverty which can lead to increased violence. People might be fleeing from the violence, but the root cause might be crop loss due to global warming.
Re: (Score:2)
hopefully the situations in those countries improves and they can all go home.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why don't they just move inland a few miles with a few more feet of elevation above seal level? Answer: Because their neighbors who already live there will kill them.
Sorry you folks live in a shithole where your fellow citizens won't step up and help you. Explain to me why this is my problem again?
Re: (Score:1)
Check the box on the application form: Reason for requesting asylum.
Hey look! Someone added 'Global Warming'. Let's check that.
They're illegal aliens, not "refugees". (Score:5, Insightful)
It's absurd to call them "refugees".
Real refugees have 2 primary goals:
1) To reach the nearest location where the immediate danger they face is no longer present.
2) To return to their origin as soon as it is safe to do so.
In the case of Syrians, the locations matching those criteria would typically be within Syria itself. They could find safety without ever leaving the country.
In rare situations, some Syrians might find Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey, or even Iraq to be closer. But that's as far as they'd ever need to go to reach safety, while still being able to return home as soon as possible.
There's absolutely no legitimate reason for any Syrian to have made the long journey to a Europe nation like Greece, never mind distant European nations like Germany, Sweden or the UK.
The same goes for anyone coming from Africa. At least Syrians can say there is something resembling a real war going on in their nation. That's not true for nearly all of the Africans. They conditions might not be good, but they're nothing like Syria.
It's even worse when it comes to those from Afghanistan, given how far away Afghanistan is from Europe.
Anyone traveling thousands upon thousands of miles to Europe, through numerous safe countries, and with no intent to ever leave Europe, is not a "refugee". They're illegal aliens, and that's exactly what they should be referred to as. They should also be immediately deported.
No place to go (Score:4, Informative)
Real refugees have 2 primary goals 1) To reach the nearest location where the immediate danger they face is no longer present. 2) To return to their origin as soon as it is safe to do so.
In the case of Syrians, the locations matching those criteria would typically be within Syria itself. They could find safety without ever leaving the country.
I take it you know nothing about the Syrian crisis, then.
What place in Syria is it that you believe is "where the immediate danger they face is no longer present"? The few places within Syria that aren't in a war zone with boundaries that are constantly changing... are jammed to overflowing with the eight million people who are already displaced within Syria; the largest internally displaced population in the world. About six in ten Syrians [pewresearch.org] are now refugees, most of them internally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34189117
Re: (Score:1)
Funny that you don't mention Israel in that list of neighbors. The one country that's done the most to destabilize Syria is also the one that's done nothing to help.
Re: (Score:1)
Also Saudi Arabia is not mentioned. A country who has done more to destabilize Syria than Israel.
Re:They're illegal aliens, not "refugees". (Score:4, Interesting)
2) To return to their origin as soon as it is safe to do so.
My next-door-neighbours arrived here in Canada as refugees from Vietnam in the 70s. They got jobs, became citizens, and raised children. 40 years later, Vietnam is now 'safe' but they have no interest in returning there. They're Canadians now. The mother of the household vacations there every few years to visit friends and family, but that's it.
The Syrian refugees across the street from me will likely follow the same pattern - They are integrating themselves into our community. If, a decade from now, Syria is 'safe,' the pull to go back there will likely be weak.
Re: (Score:2)
Your point two is plain wrong and one arguable as well.
And the guys who modded you up are idiots.
If YOU would flee from your own country, would marry have kids, learn the language and have a satisfying job: why the funk would you want to go "home"?
You have a new home then ... where ever you are.
Re: (Score:3)
Real refugees have 2 primary goals:
1) To reach the nearest location where the immediate danger they face is no longer present.
2) To return to their origin as soon as it is safe to do so.
So what you're saying is that everybody's primary goal is to stay at their origin, only refugees leave and only because they're forced away and only for as long as absolutely necessary? I think quite a lot of people who has left their home town or state or emigrated would disagree with that. I'll admit that I've ended up fairly close to home, but it's because of family, friends and familiar surroundings. If I didn't have anyone left behind because they've either with me, fled somewhere else or they're dead
Re: (Score:2)
2) To return to their origin as soon as it is safe to do so.
This has never nor will ever be the definition of a requirement for a refugee.
Re: (Score:1)
When it gets too hot to grow food, and people start starving, it leads to the kind of political instability that creates refugees. Just FYI.
Cause and effect (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, but those countries are relatively more stable when climate (and thus food production) are closer to historical norms. Instability drives migration, but food shortages drive instability and climate drives food shortages.
Re: Deniers can't wait (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
Re: (Score:2)
And, how is that supposed to work?
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ind... [wikipedia.org]
They can come over to my place... (Score:3)
Get used to more gang rape and truck rammings (Score:1)
For Europe the enemy is already inside the gates.
So the study concludes asylum seekers are lying? (Score:2)
According to https://www.immigrationequalit... [immigrationequality.org]
An asylum seeker must prove that he or she has a well-founded fear of persecution based on one or more of five grounds:
Race
Religion
Nationality
Membership in a particular social group (Most LGBTQ individuals who apply for asylum qualify under this category)
Political opinion
Sure. (Score:1)
Faced with rejection of "refugees" from non-war-torn areas, we'll make importation of the new underclass more palatable by whining about, "But, but, it's warm where they're from!"
68 Fahrenheit? (Score:1)
68 Fahrenheit = 20 Celsius
I know. "Just fucking Google it."
But by omitting that bit of information in the summary, something that would require msmash five seconds of work, you just made every non-US reader waste five second.
So you saved five seconds but caused a total waste of who-the-fuck-knows how many hours for everyone else not in the USA.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, while you are right, you can safely assume everyone in the world knows that 100F is body temperature ... so 68F is significantly below that.
Who cares if that is 19, 20 or 21 C
Re: (Score:2)
No, I'm european.
An american would never be as arrogant as I am, he simply would assume that every country outside is a 3rd world country and uses Farenheit as well.
Things that make you go hmmmm (Score:3)
>>...with the rise of right-wing political parties...
This is curious to me. Are these parties rising because they see their country and identity being overrun with immigrants, or are they on the rise because they see their country becoming a (perceived, rightly or wrongly) welfare state for foreigners, or is it something else?
The implication from the summary is it's due to climate shift, but I'm not so certain that's accurate.
Re: (Score:2)
As with everything in life, there are probably multiple reasons. Included in there is likely people doing worse off (or perceiving that they are worse off) and laying blame with a group of "others" just as they've done for thousands of years.
Re: (Score:2)
No, the usual arguments are about the additional strain on healthcare and social services, increased crime (specially rapes and other violent crime where immigrants from Africa and the middle East are already badly overrepresented), the cost of the unemployment and other benefits along with the rather retrograde vie
Re: (Score:2)
Look at the systemic lack of action by police, councils and the crown in the UK over the massive child prostitution, child grooming and rape gangs, and it becomes a case that it's a bit from column a and b. More so that the prevailing political thought is "not to punish those asians" but to ignore it, or even accost the victims. And you've seen the same happening in other EU countries with regards to similar issues, or issues stemming from that. Again with the government, courts, police, crowns offices,
Rising temperatures? (Score:3)
Come to Canada, we'll give you our snow! Just take it off our streets and it's yours!
For those of you wondering why this is so bad (Score:2)
Re: For those of you wondering why this is so bad (Score:1)
They weren't 'kicked out' of their homelands. They left voluntarily.
They are looking for the best government handouts, which is why they go to Germany, Sweden, France and the UK, rather than the closer European nations in the Balkans that aren't as generous with handouts.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
So they don't integrate with the host society.
If course they do. Canada is full of refugees, all very happy to be here, and the majority of whom are working hard to integrate into Canadian society.
My next door neighbours are refugees. The whole family works freaking hard and all manner of scut jobs.
Re:For those of you wondering why this is so bad (Score:5, Informative)
Not only is it becoming harder and harder to get the countries to take back all of their citizens, Iraq being particularly difficult, a lot of the immigrants have decided to simply not accept that their asylum application got denied. Instead they've either gone underground, thinking if they stay long enough they can eventually get permanent residence, or have started roving around Europe applying for asylum in multiple countries using false identities (as per the Dublin process if you have your asylum application denied in one country other EU countries will not even consider any further applications by you).
Climate refugees will outnumber others soon (Score:1)
This isn't really news. Climate refugees will outnumber other refugees (war, economical, social) within two to four decades. This has been suspected for 2,5 decades and since was proven to be a correct assumption.
Scientists also pretty much agree that certain parts of earth will be inhabitable at the end of this century. Central india and large areas in africa are on that list. Global heat wave death rates are rising by the year and this will only get worse.
Re: (Score:1)
Please feel free to point to a single refugee application in any country in the world where someone put down "I want to leave my country and come to yours because the weather in my country sucks!"...claiming you know that people are leaving an area due to 'climate change' is entire bullshit. Until or unless you can separate refugees leaving for entirely other man made reasons (war, dictatorships or other government control making life shitty) you have no way to claim any single person is leaving their count
Correlation? Causation? Too complicated! (Score:3)
Let's blame everything on climate change, because why not?
Re: (Score:2)
Let's blame everything on climate change, because why not?
Oh? I'm interested. Do you postulate that people in an area that are no longer able to sustain food or water would instead stay in that area?
Re: (Score:1)
It's The Free Handouts Idiots (Score:2)
Ever notice how they're leaving all muslim countries that are by all accounts pretty shitty because they're sharia'd lawed up and then they pass through moderately wealthy Muslim places like Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia and still go to Europe?
It's because they're looking for handouts from the overly generous European welfare programs and don't want to work.
I don't blame them. If Europe is that stupid to give out free money without any plan to get you on your feet that's their own fault.
Re: (Score:2)
I wouldn't give handouts to men who abandoned their wives and daughters and sisters just to save their own skin. fuck them.
Droughts Mean Refugees / ISIS (Score:2)
Unfortunately media hasn't entirely caught on to this yet but a lot of refugees flooding into Europe are actually from Africa and it isn't because of war. This has unfortunately been going on for more years than when things blew up in Syria. Basically there are places in Africa who haven't seen rain in years and farmers who are unable to grow anything. Folks might argue California has suffered the same but folks are forgetting that these folks weren't "rich" farmers to begin with and there's no social sa
Nobody knows (Score:2)
The real punchline here is that nobody has a clue of what climate change will really bring. In fact, it may make areas that are currently deserts into lush, tropical paradises. And where the people are flocking to now could become deserts.
Irrellevent (Score:2)
If you provide passage to rich countries that will give you food, water, and housing for free X immigrants will always come, were X is the carrying capacity of the TRANSPORTATION.
There has always been war and there are billions of starving people every day. The only reason we have immigrants is because we have people pushing for immigration and many of them providing transportation. The wars and famine just get in the way of this and slow it down.
Skilled guest workers vs random migrants (Score:2)
Not too many changes and the laws and faith share something in common their own nation.
If the West needs workers short term why not look for the best workers other more advanced nations have to offer? Why just accept lot of very random people with no skills that will need looking after for generations?
If all the USA wanted good workers why not bring in legal guest workers who are educated from nations that have some
Re: Skilled guest workers vs random migrants (Score:2)
Guest workers depress wages for citizens and retard national economic development. Because they have no intention or ability to stay long term, they effectively *live* in their home country's economy while *working* in America. They are not villains, but they are unwelcome guests.
I do support making it very easy to become a citizen, on the condition one renounces citizenship in their former country. My Irish ancestors benefited from an easy citizenship policy when fleeing the famine. They were unskilled
Re: (Score:2)
People wanted to come to the USA and embraced freedom and democracy in the past.
That was nice when the USA was been created and was not full of people.
Lots of small shops, factories and exporting to keep lots of people in work. A nation had to be explored, opened and cities built.
Lots of work by hand.
Now the USA is full of people looking for work. The skill and unskilled work is done in nations like China, Indonesia, Cambodia,
Re: Skilled guest workers vs random migrants (Score:2)
Isn't widespread unemployment and the resulting destitution fundamentally a symptom of dysfunctional economic management? I don't buy the narrative that there are just "too many people".
Can we really claim there is no useful work that needs done? Surely the country has not reached some state of infrastructural and cultural perfection where that would be plausible.
Also.. there are way too many PhDs doing menial work in call centers etc for me to accept we have any serious skills deficit. We all know many p
Re: (Score:2)
Then look after people in the USA first who want to do the "menial work". If they need more vocational support as the "menial work" needs some skill, do that.
Why bring in random people with no skills into the USA every year when so many people in the USA with few skills are looking for work?
Re "Can we really claim there is no useful work that needs done?"
Find people from all over the USA who want and can wor
Re: (Score:3)
Why don't they go to Siberia if heat is really their reason for migration?
Well, mostly crop failures are the reason for migration. Heat is the reason for crop failure, but it's the crop failures that are the reason people are forced to leave.
How much crops does Siberia grow?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sineria is very big.
So in the south you can frow crops.
In the north not so much.
As a Syrian I never would go into Siberia/Russia, as the Russians are the assholes behind Putin and Sadat.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
In case if Syria, the reason is: war.
And the reason of that war is the failed US politics in Iraq and the resulting ISIS.
Plus: civil war in Syria as the population revolted partly against Sadadt.
Not a trivial problem (Score:4, Informative)
The US per wikipedia has a total of about 12 million illegal immigrants.
Which were absorbed over a long period of time and who came to work for depressingly low wages. It wasn't 12 million all at once. Many of them have been here literally for decades. The total number of illegal immigrants in the US hasn't risen [pewresearch.org] for about a decade and in fact has declined somewhat from the peak.
Migration has been a relatively minor problem for Europe.
It isn't a minor problem. It's not to the scale justifying any sort of panic but any time you get a million new refugees in a relatively short time frame that creates a lot of very real problems. These people need to be fed, sheltered, to find work and school, etc. This isn't a trivial undertaking by an measure. It's made worse of course by the inevitable racists and xenophobes who want to shut the borders to keep anyone different out.
Re: (Score:1)
You misspelled "who refuse to assimilate."
Re: (Score:2)
Dude, by far most of the illegal immigrants in the US are Mexican. Much of them already have family here who have been here since the Mexican American War turned a gigantic chuck of Mexico into the American southwest. 30 million or so Americans have Mexican heritage. Mexico and the US share a lot of culture as well.
Plus, we are neighbors.
In Europe on the other hand, they are strangers. They are coming from afar, from strange lands. They have no family, no where to go but camps and start accepting gover
Re: (Score:1)
The Daily Mail, tabloid journalism at its most! (Score:2)
Have you seen the Daily Mail song [youtube.com]?
Re: (Score:3)
We only need to look to Sweden to see what happens when illegal aliens (commonly, and wrongly, referred to as "refugees" by some) are allowed to violate the borders of a civilized Western nation.=Sweden has seen a huge increase in grenade attacks, of all things, since the start of the illegal alien disaster around 2014. During 2015 and 2016 there was a grenade attack almost every week!
...and nevertheless, Sweden's murder rate, grenades and all, is less than a quarter the rate of America. The answer seems to be that despite all the refugees, if you're afraid of crime, you should flee America to go to the much safer Sweden.
Oh, and the rate of crime in Sweden hasn't changed over the last 20 years. Apparently the "illegal alien disaster" of refugees actually isn't the problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3)
Just as they were in the United States in the past when "those Jews/Irish/Chinese" were "flooding" in and going to destroy our country if we didn't keep them out. Our country was fine - and arguably better for absorbing new groups of people - and this "wave" of immigrants (in quotes because immigration is actually down) won't destroy our country either. However, racist xenophobes in the US might destroy our country in their efforts to protect us from those scary immigrants.
Re: (Score:2)
Nothing like the 80s. (Score:2)
I like how the early 1980s is repeating itself.
Speaking as someone who was around during the early 80s that statement is nonsensical. The political environment today bears almost no resemblance to the one in the early 80s. If you think it does then you either have a very selective memory or you weren't there.
Reagan was decried as an "idiot who would get us into a nuclear war" and the Japanese were buying up real estate left and right.
It is true that there was a lot of angst about Japan during the 80s but your assertion about Reagan was not widely held outside of a few far left kooks. Bear in mind that the Cold War was in full swing so Reagan building up our military substanti
Re:This means wealthy countries who have polluted. (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
There is no comparison between Mexicans coming into the US, and Africans and Middle Easterners flooding into Western Europe.
Mexicans come for jobs and are productive. Many of them already have family here. A very large chuck of the US was once Mexico. Our nations are very intertwined.
The refugees in Europe on the other hand have zero context there. They are strangers, and immediately land in slums and start looking for handouts.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know about zero context. Many of these countries use European languages because of past colonial activity.
It seems to me that Europe has some reparations it should make for the colonial era still and in return they get to do a more gentle export of their culture. If Europe wants to stem the flood of immigrants it can always put more effort into making life better for people in situ. Help them with farming tech, sponsor education. There's really no good reason why Africa should be abandoned.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
They want to let all the migrants in and then raise our taxes to pay for their benefits.
In truth wealthy donors to both D and R like cheap labor and thus we allow in millions of immigrants. Compounded by the Democrats lusting over poor immigrants who tend to vote Democrat. Thus both parties are fine letting in literally millions of immigrants and their families (and extended families) for various reasons. The fact that it hurts average citizens by way of lowering wages, increasing housing and traffic issues, crowding schools, and bringing in crime and gangs are all overlooked by the wealthy