Lauri Love Ruling 'Sets Precedent' For Trying Hacking Suspects in UK (theguardian.com) 222
A high court ruling blocking extradition to the US of Lauri Love, a student accused of breaking into US government websites, has been welcomed by lawyers and human rights groups as a precedent for trying hacking suspects in the UK in future. From a report: The decision delivered by the lord chief justice, Lord Burnett of Maldon, is highly critical of the conditions Love would have endured in US jails, warning of the risk of suicide. Lawyers for the 33-year-old, who lives in Suffolk, had argued that Love should be tried in Britain for allegedly hacking into US government websites and that he would be at risk of killing himself if sent to the US. There was cheering and applause in court on Monday when Burnett announced his decision. He asked supporters to be quiet, saying: "This is a court, not a theatre." In his judgment, Burnett said: "It would not be oppressive to prosecute Mr Love in England for the offences alleged against him. Far from it. Much of Mr Love's argument was based on the contention that this is indeed where he should be prosecuted
Why would he be extradited in the first place? (Score:1)
Pardon my ignorance on law but if he committed the crime in the UK then why try and extridite him in the first place? I thought extradition was only if you committed a crime in a country and then left by the time they wanted to prosecute you.
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The computers that were attacked were on US Soil. So the crime was committed in the US.
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But the criminal act was committed in the UK.
Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place? (Score:5, Insightful)
The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
LOL - wait, you WERE *joking*, right? RIGHT?
You realize that the US incarcerates more people PER CAPITA, than ANY *OTHER* country - on the whole planet.
The only way you can reconcile that fact with your statement is if you accept that USians are at least - at *LEAST* - twice as criminal as any other population/culture in the world.
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Well yeah. There are a ton of criminals in America. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. Other countries are corrupt and either don't arrest them or let them out for a bribe. Not surprising the prisons fill up.
And you might want to drop that "USian" crap, it marks you as a drooling person whose arguments are not to be taken seriously.
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Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place? (Score:5, Informative)
The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.
Actually, the World Justice Project collects data on the rule of law world wide, and provides a web interface in which you can easily rank countries [worldjusticeproject.org] by whatever metric you are interested in.
For example, by the fairness of the criminal court system, the top five countries in order are Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Singapore. The US is in eighteenth place. The factors taken into account include: impartiality, due process protections, timely trials, and recidivism rates.
For civil cases, the Netherlands takes top place, with US placing 25th. Factors include affordability of access to civil justice, timeliness, impartiality, effective enforcement of judgments, and absence of political interference.
In general the US is nowhere near the top in these rule-of-law factors, but it's far from a dystopia; in general it's above average, keeping company with countries like France, Spain, and South Korea. It's the Nordic countries that score the best in most categories, with Singapore scoring high in measures of efficiency, security, regulatory enforcement and non-corruption but posting mediocre scores in government transparency, constraints on government, and individual rights.
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For civil cases, the Netherlands takes top place, with US placing 25th. Factors include affordability of access to civil justice, timeliness, impartiality, effective enforcement of judgments, and absence of political interference.
Eh well. The US would place 18th, except the timeliness metric is being blown out by SCO vs. IBM.....
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Well, there are philosophical theories of fairness which I won't go into here. For the purposes of this particular metric they in effect use what is known as a "paradigm" -- a way for two people to reason about ethical issues when they don't necessarily agree on fundamental principles.
So while we may have very different views of where morality comes from, we can both agree that in a fair system the same standards of evidence should be use used in trying a particular offense for all defendants. We can agre
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The US Court system is the fairest one one the world.
lol. You've got judges who don't even attempt to hide their bias. You've got despicable plea-deal corruption. Fairest, lol.
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You're innocent but can't afford to stand trial and therefore plead guilty, because in case of a trial that you can't afford to defend yourself in you would definitely lose although you're innocent, and get 15 years.
Re:Why would he be extradited in the first place? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sooo, if I gamble online and the server is in Elbonia, I'm not breaking any US laws? 'Cuz the U.S. government does not agree.
Only point being, international jurisdiction is about as grey as gray can be, no matter how you spell it.
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You will be fine gambling in Elbonia, just as long as that ill gotten money doesn't flow to the US.
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If some gringo in Mexico fires a gun across the border and kills someone in the US, how rabidly do you think they'd pursue extradition?
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Well, if it's a "gringo" in Mexico, he's probably an American, so the analogy is even muddier.
Re: Why would he be extradited in the first place? (Score:2)
The act was also a crime in the UK and he was located in the UK and was a UK citizen. As such the crime should have been prosecuted in the UK in the first instance. Now a judge has admonished the CPS for not doing so and refused his extradition.
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"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"
Other nations should remember that "Shores of Tripoli" and "Halls of Montezuma" part of a hymn.
The USA will come looking and its well funded legal system is always on the job.
Take note, Assange haters (Score:5, Informative)
Before blowing that off as outlandish, Sweden is known for keeping suspects incommunicado for weeks [theguardian.com] without even charging them, and then deporting them to other countries to face other charges. Obama had Chelsea Manning tortured with solitary confident for months - yes it's torture [washingtonpost.com] and it causes permanent damage after a couple weeks - and she eventually attempted suicide.
Re: Take note, Assange haters (Score:3, Funny)
I like how we are constantly redefining the definition of torture. I fully expect that in 2089 your descendants will be arguing that not receiving strawberry cheesecake for desert is torture and causes lasting psychological harm.
Re: Take note, Assange haters (Score:4, Informative)
What exactly is your definition of "torture"? There is a large body of evidence that shows solitary confinement causes severe psychological damage. Prisons are beginning to abolish it because it does not actually improve anything; rather, it literally drives people crazy.
Re: Take note, Assange haters (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, correctional systems in states such as North Dakota have started implementing policies to normalize the prison environment and improve correctional outcomes, among other things. They have a discretionary parole program there, too, to get people out of prison and instead control them via the mechanism of parole; and the governor can commute sentences at the request of the parole advisory board if they think it's a waste of resources to keep tabs on a guy with a 20-year sentence who got out on parole after 3 years and has been determined not a likely reoffender or otherwise threat to the community 6 months later.
Between expanded in-prison programs, more inmate autonomy, a better relationship between inmates and prison staff, expanded behavioral health services, and incoming and outgoing services to keep people out of prison or to stabilize them when they get out, the amount of trouble inmates cause in prison and the rate at which inmates reoffend has dropped considerably.
As a result of all of this, North Dakota went from having over a hundred inmates in solitary confinement to having maybe three; and they don't stay in solitary confinement for very long at all. Their caseworkers spend a lot of time with them, and they get cognitive therapy to help them improve so they can go back to general population quickly. It really is phenomenal.
It is my intent to drive similar change across the whole of the United States.
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It is my intent to drive similar change across the whole of the United States.
Good for you. I mean that: no sarcasm.
Do you have some gfood places I can read up on this? Sounds like a huge improvement
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Right now I've been calling up some people who know more about this than I. I've spoken to ND's DoC head and learned about some of their programs. They've been pushing a program called Justice Reinvestment [nd.gov] whereby they change how their corrections system operates and reinvest the savings into making it operate even better, in a basic sense. Their legislature has a committee for this [nd.gov].
They actually have a system where private behavioral health service providers get paid a monthly fee for their cases, and
Re: Take note, Assange haters (Score:4, Insightful)
That and the fact that Assange has offered to be interviewed by investigators at the embassy, or to return to Sweden if given a no-extradition promise to the United States. Even if you think Assange is merely posturing, such a promise would mean Ecuador would no longer have a reason to grant him asylum.
If this really was about an alleged rape case, Sweden has had years to make it clear it's only about an alleged rape case, and not a pretext to hand him over to the US.
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The case of Gottfrid Svartholm [theguardian.com] makes bad liars out of all the concern trolls working on behalf of American Hegemony. Sweden goes to great lengths to extradite someone from a non-extradition country, and immediately throws him in a cell with no contact for weeks, interrogated for a case in another country, and deported to said country.
Get lost, dipshit.
Re: Take note, Assange haters (Score:2)
The case of Gottfrid Svartholm makes bad liars out of all the concern trolls working on behalf of American Hegemony.
Cool story, bro. But no. Gottfrid was charged and jailed in Sweden for copyright infringement, and was investigated for hacking and fraud. He was then deported to Denmark where he was prosecuted and convicted for hacking.
None of those things have anything to do with the Assange situation. Sweden's extradition treaty specifically forbids extradition for "political crimes", and the only thing which the US has accused him of is expressly political. Ergo there's no good reason to believe that Sweden would
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So you're just going to ignore the part where he was imprisoned for weeks, held incommunicado with no right to outside contact of any kind (including a lawyer as he wasn't charged) and interrogated on this other alleged crime before being sent to prison for the previous copyright charge.
You
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When Muslim is used as a synonym for Arab - which all islamophobes do whether unconsciously or not - it's definitely racism.
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Lulz. American Exceptionalists are the worst tough guy crybaby bitches the world has ever seen. Long before you were killing a million people in a bullshit invasion, you killed half a million kids with sanctions, shoot down a passenger jet in their own airspace, and overthrew governments to install dictators like Saddam and the Shah.
If muslims responded to your terrorism the way the U.S. responded to 911, the entire USA would have bee
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Could always try reading the citation:
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"Not allowed to have visitors" is very very different from solitary confinement, though the latter implies the former.
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He was specifically held in conditions to not allow contact with any other individuals. If it walks like solitary, talks like solitary, looks like solitary....it's probably solitary confinement.
Tomato, tomahtoe.
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OK, I have no idea about the specifics of his case, just wasn't sure if you were equating no visitors with solitary confinement.
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Insert Mark Hamill picture here, because every word you just said was false. To pick just one issue, Manning's Oath of Enlistment required her to defend the Constitution of the United States, not neocon war criminals breaking every law under the sun. She tried the vaunted 'chain of command' and was shut down, leaving a leak her only option to uphold said oath.
Why is this case a "precedent" and not others? (Score:2)
I seem to recall other, similar extradition requests - Gary McKinnon for one, but several others.
What makes this one special?
I seem to recall that Gary also had Asperger's and Depression... which doesn't seem to make this one a precedent at all.
First of many cases (Score:5, Insightful)
The Internet changes all that. Now it's possible to reside in one jurisdiction (country), while committing a crime in another. The legal system is just coming to grips with this. c.f. the U.S. trying to get Microsoft's server data that's stored outside the country, France trying to apply its laws to the rest of the world, Kim Dotcom arrested in New Zealand at the behest of the U.S., etc.
Extradition agreements weren't really set up for suspects who fled to another country, not for this type of remote crime. So from this point on we'll be making up new stuff as we go along. It'll probably be a few more decades before it all gets settled down. If multiple judges rule as this judge has (and the same happens when some American kid hacks UK computers), I expect the U.S. and UK will negotiate new extradition treaties which specifically cover this type of case, thereby limiting the leeway the judge had in this particular case.
Gonna Come Back to Bite Them (Score:2)
Britain will regret this decision. At some point in time a criminal wanted in Britain will be in the US and Trump will prevent the extradition. Tit-for-tat....
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I don't care. If Lauri Love broke the law in the UK then he should be prosecuted in the UK. If he didn't break the law in the UK then he hasn't broken the law and shouldn't be extradited.
There are no possible grounds for him being extradited to the USA. Whether the USA want to be stupid about it is irrelevant.
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If her nickname was 'Butt' ...
Lauri "Butt: Love....
LUALZ DENG!!
Didn't make it past the title to the summary I see. It would be ...His nickname.
Re: Avoid the USA for the time being. (Score:5, Insightful)
As a citizen I am scared to be in America at the moment.
Of course you are. Just like many conservatives were terrified to be in the US under Obama. That's what happens when you have a carroonish view of politics and react emotionally whenever you're not getting your way.
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Who are these conservatives who were terrified to be in the US under Obama, and what were they afraid of?
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Well, i'm one of those.
What was I afraid of? The to-the-hilt PR support the left and our media gave him, and the things he got away clean on. because of it.
things like extra-judicially executing american citizens. negotiating with terrorists, paying terrorists, paying ransoms? those _Absolutely Horrify_ me. Because we CANNOT do that, there's no long term positive and the long term negatives Are Awful.
Then you look at his using our intelligence apparatus politically, from the IRS targeting his political oppo
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So, you were worried that Barack Obama was going to extra-judicially execute you? You lived for eight years "scared to death" of being extra-judicially executed?
God man, being afraid all the time is no way to live.
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Obviously, he's terrified of the consequences for the nation that extra-judicial executions implicate.
But, you knew that. Why deliberately misinterpret his post?
Every POTUS has faults and does bad stuff. HWB GWB, BC, BHO, *all* have done bad stuff.
We need to call out the individual bad actions/decisions and not hand-wave them away just because of the party they belong to, and on the f
Re: Avoid the USA for the time being. (Score:2)
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This is what Scott Adams calls a 'hallucination' [dilbert.com] and now that I know how to spot them, they're fascinating to discover in the wild. He literally said, "What was I afraid of? things like extra-judicially executing american citizens." and you hallucinated that it was him saying he was personally afraid of being assassinated. I'm starting to think any comment that starts with "so" followed by a misstatement of the opponent's argument is the tell for this.
It happened bigtime in the Jordan Peterson interview [youtube.com]
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Sure: The patriarchy.
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You think anti-vax is a leftwing conspiracy theory? Hmm.
https://twitter.com/realdonald... [twitter.com]
https://www.infowars.com/resea... [infowars.com]
This doesn't exist.
9/11 "false flag" conspiracies are a conservative phenomenon.
http://www.slate.com/articles/... [slate.com]
Re: Avoid the USA for the time being. (Score:2)
Re: Avoid the USA for the time being. (Score:5, Interesting)
I assume you meant cartoonish. I view of US politics is cartoonish right now, because the people at the top are cartoonish. I don't know what planet you're living on where what's happening in the US is *not* cartoonish.
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Under George W Bush, while I disagreed with the policies, I wasn't worried about the country direction as I am now. Policies even if I disagree with them based on moderated reasoning, and for the most part with the general interest of the country at hand I can deal with and willing to put up with a policy I don't like for 4-8 years while using my rights as a citizen to disagree with it.
However today I don't feel the in power party is out for anyone's interests expect for that of the party. They are looking
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You're only fooling yourself. Enjoy the upcoming impeachment.
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The current leadership hard line approach to nearly everything with little to no thinking of any ethical ramification.
Don't be so dramatic. Every administration has taken a hard line approach when it comes to hackers. We put them in prison and throw away the key. While white collar criminals that rip off billions of dollars are out after a year, if punished at all. And murderers, actual fucking murderers, can get out sooner than a hacker.
The US government had made it clear for decades. Hackers are scum and have no rights. It's not Trump doing this, it's something baked into the culture of our legislature and executive bran
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Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders? Why do the nations of Europe outsource this most sacred of national responsibilities?
People in Europe go on ad nauseum about how America thinks it can police the world and butt its nose in every country's business. America has been hated for this especially since the Vietnam war. Well, we are doing less of that and they're whining that we are desertin
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Europe has thrived while the US defended them from internal and external strife. Now, Europe just is going to have to face the fact that they are going to have to have armies and navies again and have to spend a chunk of their GDP so they don't get overrun. Of course, they can easily continue the Merkel Doctrine and be overrun with Syrians, and the whole European identity be wiped off the face of the globe, just like how the Taliban and Daesh have destroyed all Buddhist and other cultures in Iraq and Afgh
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If you think America is "defending Europe" in any way other than just protecting its own interests, I've got a bridge to sell you. No-one takes that seriously in any way. We've had to pay the dane-geld in terms of military bases, occupied land etc.
America is interested in one thing only: America. "World's Policeman" is about as realistic as the Easter Bunny. It's a menacing bully with a massive armed force. The moment that the bases aren't profitable in terms of the US economy they'll disappear. Just about
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It's not profitable at all for America to occupy Europe. In fact, it is hugely expensive. Europeans refuse to pay for their own defense and reacted quite angrily when Trump presented them with a bill for failing to reach their (quite low) 2% spending minimum.
Funny that when not so long ago when the US president questioned the sustainability and fairness of the NATO alliance, all of a sudden NATO is important for Europe's defense. All of a sudden the Europeans who never gave the US any credit for its dis
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It's not profitable at all for America to occupy Europe. In fact, it is hugely expensive. Europeans refuse to pay for their own defense and reacted quite angrily when Trump presented them with a bill for failing to reach their (quite low) 2% spending minimum.
Hey, I'm all for lessing US involvement and making others pick up the slack. (That is pretty much Section 3 of the Libertairan party platform.) However, do not think for a second that things aren't the way they are because faction in the US want them that way. Our military isn't making us money and is way more than we need, but even Trump just wants to spend more for no return. While making Germany pay it's full 2% was an issue before the election, something that Merkel agreed to, he forgot all about it aft
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LOL. And when Trump said let's withdraw from NATO, the screams were loud and numerous. Suddenly NATO became Europe's prized asset and America was Europe's best friend. Ungrateful freeloaders.
Which is why there is a large part of the European left that is happy for a Trump election. They feel he will so damage US relations and reputations that it cannot be repaired and will never regain control over the world again. There is a big difference between saying the US wants to reduce it's roll and for other nations to pick up the slack, something that Merkel had pretty much agreed to already, and picking up our toys and rage quitting at a party the US has organized and been telling people what to do.
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Uh, American control over the world is a *bad* thing. Just ask Iraq.
Not disagreeing with that. If anything, recent history has taught us that stability tends to be better than trying to fix things, at least though revolution or war.
Re:Avoid the USA for the time being. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Extortion? How? Old Europe refuses point-blank to spend the minimum required by NATO for defense. How's it profitable when you have to pay and pay to defend a continent full of people who hate you? America has 50,000 troops in Germany whose primary job is keep the small businesses afloat.
The US fought the Cold War to keep the Russians off Western European soil, and mitigated ethnic tensions in the region, and all we got in return was European propaganda about how imperialistic and colonial the US is fr
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Please, stop trying to think, you're no good at it.
You needed a semicolon after "think".
The US loses money doing business with Europe. There is a huge trade imbalance that Europe refuses to make fair. The European Union, which exports lots of vehicles to the United States, has an import duty of 10 percent; ours is 2.5 percent. Car & Driver magazine reports that the 10 percent duty imposed on imports into the European Union is preventing BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen from building more factories
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Why does a rich continent of 500 million people depend on a distant nation of 300 million to defend it against much poorer and weaker threats on its borders?
Uh, they DON'T. Full stop.
America's role as the world's policemen are coming to an end.
GOOD! Go the fuck home and leave the rest of the world alone for once. FFS.
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Uh, hate to break it to you, but Europe depends utterly on the Americans to keep Putin's panzers out of Paris.
GOOD! Go the fuck home and leave the rest of the world alone for once. FFS.
Statements like that are exactly the kind of shitty, smug European attitude that results in Americans questioning the usefulness of NATO. Not only are you ungrateful, you go in the opposite direction and have a derisive view of the US despite how much you depend on it. Also what you just said has no grounding in reality,
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Pfff. Oh, yeah? When's the last time the people of Europe stood up and said, "We like you, America! Thanks for all the free security you provide because we are too weak and useless to provide it ourselves!" Yeah, never. When's the last time the people of Europe stood up and angrily demanded Americans get the fuck out and called them baby-murdering warmongers for actually building an army? Last week? Every US mililtary base in Europe is spraypainted with "AMI GO HOME" and European attitudes towards Am
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"UN isn't your personal lapdogs"
OK this is just crazy. Since when has the UN been anything other than a hotbed of hate for America? The US withdrew from UNESCO in 1984 because "because the agency has been politicized leftward and is financially irresponsible." [washingtonpost.com]
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Gosh, it isn't 1944 any more. The UN functions today as a forum for anti-Americanism. That's what it is, that's what it does, and suggesting that the UN is some kind of American puppet is really out there. America pays and pays and yet the UN feels free to bite the hand that feeds it. How else to explain the recent resounding American defeat in the Palestinian vote?
A lot of Americans have been saying for a long time that the UN needs to be kicked out. Their diplomats take all the benefits of living i
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Are you seriously aligning the interests of the globalists in the US government with the interests of the American people? We had fuck-all to do with that coup shit. Hell, the CIA did a lot of those on its own while trying to hide its involvement from the elected government. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's established fact.
The solution, however, is not to turn away from friends and alliances which have been built up for more than half a century.
Gotta love that attitude. FUCK YOU USA and then tu
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Under the Westminster system (UK, Canada, Australia, NZ etc.) judges are appointed by the Executive on the recommendation of the MoJ.
These tend to be legal professionals, although a higher number of prosecutors than defence lawyers are appointed as a rule.
Therefore there is no election/ public to appease in the US sense so this sort of populist tends to be much less applicable.
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If you have some dosh,
You are not an American and have zero knowledge of the American legal system.
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Is this something common in the UK? Sounds like a girls name in the US.
Or, is this a Bruce Jenner "change of life" type thing in this case?
Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon (Score:2, Informative)
He's half Finnish. Lauri is a common male name there.
Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon (Score:2)
The man behind the Hydraulic Press Channel is named Lauri, in fact.
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Seeing the name I immediately thought "Lowry"
- Has anyone seen Mr. Lowry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon (Score:2)
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Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon (Score:2)
Re: Lord Butthurt of Maldon (Score:2)
What percent in long term solitary confinement? (Score:2)
USG tortured Chelsea Manning - who eventually attempted suicide - with months of solitary confinement.
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Bigoted transphobia is noted.
That willful obtuseness is just wasting our time and insulting your own intelligence.
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Not the neocons who lied them into not one but two [theguardian.com] wars costing trillions of dollars and 8,000+ American lives? GFTO, dipshit.
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I hope Julian Assange is reading this.