German Cities Can Ban Diesel Cars, Court Rules (cnet.com) 119
A German court has ruled that cities in Germany are allowed to enact bans on diesel vehicles, Reuters reports. It's unlikely that bans will magically appear across the country overnight, but not everyone in the country is happy about this decision. From a report: Environmentalists might be happy about the possibility of banning some of the road's dirtiest cars, but owners and right-leaning groups are not. Reuters reports that some politicians believe this decision could disenfranchise a large swath of car owners across the country, many of whom likely can't afford to immediately replace a vehicle.
Forcing electric cars (Score:3, Interesting)
It snows heavily for 4+ months of the year where I live. Yet, municipality is converting roads and parking spaces into bike lanes, that are unused and unusable a portion of the year due to snow. To me, this is politically driven insanity.
How dare they (Score:2, Funny)
how dare they spend money on snow removal equipment that's only used 4+ months of the year. It's a conspiracy, I tell you.
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Four months out of the year for snow plows. Six months out of the year for bicycles. Nothing that goes outside here in the North can be used all year. It is not some giant conspiracy by automakers and politically correct people. It is sensible legislation.
Re: How dare they (Score:2)
Cars can go outside all year, unless you live farther south where 0.5cm of snow is a state of emergency.
I live even farther up north where it is impossible to drive bikes all but about 3 months in the year and distances involved make it largely impractical except for semi-professional bikers. We still get them painted on the road even though they're largely used to allow cars to pass.
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The EU allows social engineering that would have made the Soviets blush? Color me surprised!
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The EU allows social engineering that would have made the Soviets blush? Color me surprised!
I suppose you're all for burning coal to heat you house also? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I have to breathe the air that your car expels. Air quality in big cities is awful but of course we can't do anything about that BECAUSE FREEDOM
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That's fascinating. When various Euro-philes were lecturing us dumb ol 'mericans about how unsophisticated we were for not wanting those super-advanced clean diesels, you knew you were "right", too. We happened to notice that the rear end of every diesel Mercedes and Volkswagen were typically caked with soot, and decided to buy nice clean Hondas and a never-ending parade of Priuses. All without anyone "banning" anything.
And in any case, why do you think the governments need to tell you
Crapping up somebody else's living space (Score:2)
And in any case, why do you think the governments need to tell you not to crap up your own living spaces? Could you not figure it out yourself and adapt without compelling everyone else do to do the same by force of arms?
The point is that diesel cars crap up other people's living spaces.
Most of the time you're not operating your car on your own property. But, collectively, all of the diesel cars crap up all of the peoples' living spaces.
Yes, you're right: if your crappy car only crapped up the place you lived yourself, there would be no problem with people rushing to get less-polluting cars without urging.
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So do petrol cars and often even more so.
Yes, and in case you didn't notice: gasoline cars have pollution control regulations.
What makes diesel cars evil but petrol cars acceptable?
In cities? Particulate emissions.
You ever stood behind the tailpipe of a diesel? Yeech.
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They should ban Nissans, too. Every single Nissan diesel is a steaming heap of smoke-spewing junk. I swear those things even blast black smoke while going downhill.
Reference: me on my motorbike.
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What makes diesel cars evil but petrol cars acceptable?
In cities? Particulate emissions.
You ever stood behind the tailpipe of a diesel? Yeech.
Well, modern diesel cars (in Europe) do have particle filters, and, in that respect, are cleaner than even conventional gasoline cars, much less cars with modern direct injection gasoline engines (which could also be fitted with filters, but aren't, because law-makers don't think about general solutions, but only about current problems).
The diesel problem making news in Germany is nitrous oxides. Diesel engines run at higher temperatures and pressures (which makes them efficient), and usually with a lean
Clean Diesel (Score:3)
Diesel cars have far worse levels of local pollution generated. Modern petrol cars generate CO2 but the exhaust is extremely clean.
One important distinction here is in the type of regulation. If any ban is as simple as the summary suggests--diesel-based vehicles are to be prohibited--then it's a bad regulation.
The reason is the distinction is between rule-based and standards-based regulations.
Bottom-line: any city that passes a rule to this effect should make clear that if someone designs a diesel engine with extremely clean exhaust, (or perhaps even if it can show lower total lifetime emissions for a vehicle) it can still be used.
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nobody is going to invest in developing gigantic improved diesel engines now, it's almost impossible to adhere to the current emission rules and diesel engines are already complex enough without adding extra bits and bolts on them for better results.
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The point is that diesel cars crap up other people's living spaces.
This is an emotional knee-jerk (and diesel has PR problem). Modern internal combustion engines (diesel or otherwise) are not significant source of pollution when emission control equipment is functioning as intended.
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That's the sort of reasoning I expected. Of course, only *you* are smart enough to figure it out and act accordingly, and *everybody else* is too stupid to figure it out, so you have to force them. Because *you know better*.
You know what, no one restricts diesels in US cities, or anywhere else, and our monuments are not caked with diesel soot. They restricted themselves, because *people didn't want them*. And of course, the inexplicable situation of why a "clean diesel" managed to soot itself
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What does this have to do with the EU? It's a decision from a German federal court on what municipal governments are allowed to do. The EU isn't involved in any way.
It's EU regulation for levels of air pollution that cities have to meet. You might think clean air is a common sense idea, but common sense and cars don't mix.
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I live in a city that has doubled its population in the past ten years, but has not done a significant highway improvement, other than allowing the state to add toll roads and turn existing roads into toll roads. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars... but on bike paths that nobody uses, and restriping four lane roads into two lane roads, causing further congestion.
So, in which part of San Jose, CA, do you live?
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I live in a city that has doubled its population in the past ten years, but has not done a significant highway improvement, other than allowing the state to add toll roads and turn existing roads into toll roads. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars... but on bike paths that nobody uses, and restriping four lane roads into two lane roads, causing further congestion.
So, in which part of San Jose, CA, do you live?
Damn, you got him!
I live in CA, but nowhere near San Jose. In my area, they spent about 2 years to add a 2 way bike lane on the residential side of the side walk along one major road. There's also a bike lane on both sides of the actual road. So you have:
{Sidewalk [narrow strip for pedestrians, bike lane, bike lane]}
{Road [bike lane, vehicle lane, vehicle lane, divider, vehicle lane, vehicle lane, bike lane]}
{Inconsistent Sidewalk [a narrow strip for pedestrians sometimes and just the edge of the road at
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Tell you what, you can drive your highly polluting diesel if you ensure all of the exhaust goes into your own vehicle.
It will be a self correcting problem.
In the mean time, the rest of us have to breath the air and live in the same environment. It's not all about you. Your 'right' to drive a car is also constrained by how it im
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To be clear, if anyone asked, I would vote 'yes' - I much prefer to spend money on a new car then to treat cancer in the future.
Not sure if anyone is actually reading '+1' posts, but I would like to propose a new score category: miss-informa
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then force everyone on public transit because owning an electric car is at this point harder than internal combustion one.
You don't live in Europe clearly.
It snows heavily for 4+ months of the year where I live. Yet, municipality is converting roads and parking spaces into bike lanes, that are unused and unusable a portion of the year due to snow. To me, this is politically driven insanity.
To me this is good enactment of policy designed to extend *your* life through pollution reduction and increased exercise. There's nothing stopping you from cycling in the snow. Get some decent tires a good jacket and go for it. According to you you'll have an entire lane to yourself.
Re:Forcing electric cars (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nothing stopping you from cycling in the snow. Get some decent tires a good jacket and go for it. According to you you'll have an entire lane to yourself.
There are many things that stopping me: a. lack of a death wish, b. aversion to misery, c. gainful employment with standards on tardiness and appearance.
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There's nothing stopping you from cycling in the snow. Get some decent tires a good jacket and go for it. According to you you'll have an entire lane to yourself.
There are many things that stopping me: a. lack of a death wish, b. aversion to misery, c. gainful employment with standards on tardiness and appearance.
Well to address that:
a. You just said you have your own bikelanes. ... which I do, so now I just get changed when I get to work. If you can't keep up appearance with a bicycle, you're doing it wrong.
b. Exercise releases endorphins. You should try it. Know what is miserable? Being stuck in traffic.
c. I'm not sure why that is relevant. Cycle in your suit, it worked just fine when I didn't have a shower at work.
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There are many things that stopping me: a. lack of a death wish, b. aversion to misery, c. gainful employment with standards on tardiness and appearance.
Well to address that:
a. You just said you have your own bikelanes. ... which I do, so now I just get changed when I get to work. If you can't keep up appearance with a bicycle, you're doing it wrong.
b. Exercise releases endorphins. You should try it. Know what is miserable? Being stuck in traffic.
c. I'm not sure why that is relevant. Cycle in your suit, it worked just fine when I didn't have a shower at work.
It is easy to spot a demagogue when one argues that it is safe and desirable to ride a bike in the snow anywhere near traffic. Hitting ice on a bike is deadly - you can easily wipe and you can easily wipe right into road traffic that can't easily stop to avoid you, because there is ice on the road. Then there is slush that gets kicked up by your own wheels no matter what. Then there is frozen chunks of rock-hard compressed snow that you have to avoid.
If where you live there is no winter, then riding year r
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There's nothing stopping you from cycling in the snow. Get some decent tires a good jacket and go for it. According to you you'll have an entire lane to yourself.
There are many things that stopping me: a. lack of a death wish, b. aversion to misery, c. gainful employment with standards on tardiness and appearance.
d. I work hard enough that I can afford a car.
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EVs are better in the cold weather than fossil cars. No issues getting them started in the cold, ready supply of energy everywhere, low centre of gravity and great performance on snow and ice...
Look at Norway as a great example of how they are extremely practical in a country where it snows heavily for many months of the year (in the north it's more than 4), yet EVs have proven extremely suitable and proven their many advantages in cold weather.
Diesels-- not great in the cold (Score:1)
EVs are better in the cold weather than fossil cars.
Huh???
Diesels are lousy when they're cold. Most of the pollution from a diesel engine comes from the few minutes when it's warming up.
In fact, one of the factors of the diesel scandal was that the manufacturers shut down the pollution controls when it got cold. https://www.envirotech-online.... [envirotech-online.com]
http://www.bbc.com/news/busine... [bbc.com]
Gasoline cars aren't great when they're cold, either.
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EVs are better in the cold weather than fossil cars.
You forgot that a) heating interior takes a lot of energy, and unlike ICE you can't use waste combustion heat b) batteries lose charge when cold, and/or must be heated to operate. a+b means that you electric range was just taken out behind a shed and shot.
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Last year I bought a Ford Fusion plug-in hybrid. During the summer, it was great. Roughly 20 miles of range on electricity, and roughly 35 mpg for longer distances. The sweet spot seems to be between 65 and 80 degrees. At roughly 100 degrees, the car will run the gasoline engine to climate control the battery pack. At less than 40 degrees, the electric range ends up being about half. Below roughly 20 degrees, and the car will use the gasoline engine to run climate control i
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They are a lot less efficient in the cold, even in California. I imagine range issues are a motherfucker in Norway.
Actually, the EV range is about the same in the cold - if the batteries are kept warm. Which isn't that hard, with cars that have battery heating. Cars without are - a dated concept.
Heating the coupe cuts the range, but not terribly with a good AC system. If you buy an EV, you buy one with sufficient winter range and take the extra summer range as a bonus.
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Usually you can bike in snow just fine.
What special kind of snow do you have at your place?
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I live in Northern Europe where we have a lot of snow parts of the year and where many medium-sized streets have bike lanes on the pavements.
If it has snowed so much that you can't ride a bike then it is enough that that snow must be plowed away for cars and pedestrians. That snow is usually shuffled to the sides of the road, up onto the walking lane on the pavement. The bike-lanes are turned into lanes for walking and the width of the car lanes remains unchanged.
So... If there hadn't been any bike lanes th
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Well, when the status quo is insane, and doing something about it is also insane, expect insanity.
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Want to "drive" out to a protest event? No "car" for that activity on that day.
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owning an electric car is at this point harder than internal combustion one.
Not by much; it costs more up front (but less in the long run), and recharge stations are not yet as common as gas stations.
This can quickly change...
Fine (Score:3)
No food for you!
Not really surprising (Score:5, Informative)
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I actually remember some TV Add, and Snotty Slashdot commenters from Germany post on how stupid us Americans are for our Gasoline Cars, and interest of Hybrid cars, while Clean-Diesel cars were so much better for the environment. While it seems like you they were scammed by their own marketing and big-business complex.
Phase In? (Score:3)
It would seem likely that any bans could easily be phased in with warnings - for example, this small area will be off limits next year, a larger area the year after, etc.
This would give most people who both need to drive in those areas and have a diesel to try to sell/exchange their car. I realize that this would probably cause problems for some people, but so does nitrogen oxide which seems to be over the EU limits in a bunch of urban areas in Germany.
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The best option would be for the national government to do a scrappage scheme where you get a tax break on a new vehicle if you trade in an old diesel. Typically the government offers a tax break and the manufacturer has to chip in a bit too (which is made up for by increased sales).
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Typically the government offers a tax break and the manufacturer has to chip in a bit too (which is made up for by increased sales).
Yeah, but who pays the government . . . ? Oh, the taxpayers. So all the taxpayer get stuck with the bill for this mess, instead of just the diesel owners.
The German auto manufacturers would like to offer conversion kits . . . which would make existing diesels cleaner . . . for the amazing low price of ~1,500€. They did the same trick years ago with catalytic converters. They refused to build cars with them standard and made them unbelievably expensive as an option . . . even when all the cars Germ
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This would give most people who both need to drive in those areas and have a diesel to try to sell/exchange their car.
On the German TV news tonight, they showed an open used car market . . . there were no diesels offered there.
The owner of the market quipped nicely, "You can't give away a diesel right now."
For folks who spent 20,000€ last year for a new diesel . . . oops . . . tough luck . . . the value of your one year old car is now 0.0€.
About ~140 million people own diesel passenger cars in Germany. Forget a Bitcoin crash . . . that's a lot of wealth knocked off right there.
I don't know if there are ~140
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Those can be built and operated outside of city limits. Out of sight out of mind.
Morons (Score:4, Insightful)
Building a new car is more polluting than the running an old car, and the economic activity required to afford that new car also burns more energy, with its pollution, than the car will save.
Cars will move to electrics pretty soon now - as the old fleet ages out the electric replacements will be too cost-effective to not buy - only gearheads will still want liquid fuel vehicles.
But in the meantime, some wealthy politicians and their wealthy friends can ban the cars that their staff people drive (because the wealthy people don't pay them enough) so that they don't have to breathe their "poor-people" pollution. The politicians will hide behind the fig leaf of environmentalism because just enough people aren't educated enough to call them on their ruling-class bullshit.
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We used to call them "Commissars" back in the olden times - from 25 years ago. Interestingly, a fair number of these new "administrators" come from the former wrong side of the Iron Curtain.
Just a coincidence, surely.
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Building a new car is more polluting than the running an old car
In total? Mostly true. Inside the city limits? Not so much. People who live in the city have to breathe the air and limiting the amount of pollution that they're allowed to emit into the air that everyone has to breathe will improve the air quality for everyone. It may increase pollution where the cars are made, but that's a separate regulatory issue.
Re:Morons (Score:4, Insightful)
Building a new car is more polluting than the running an old car
Polluting where? Building a new car doesn't cause NOx and particulate matter to be spewed into the middle of a dense population centre. Oh and the construction and assembly of a car accounts for less than 15% of the emissions over a 5 year life. It gets paid back very quickly.
No your black smoke belching beater is not doing yourself, the environment, or anyone around you any favours.
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Not only VW cheated (Score:2)
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This was in response to VW faking their exhaust emissions. These cities were wondering where all the pollution was coming from, since all the cars tested clean. Now they know that they all fail emission standards. The only way to solve the problem is ban the cars. The owners need to sue VW.
Although that's a serious issue, this is more in response to increasing pollution in urban centres in Germany. A lot of this pollution comes from older (pre-Euro5) automobiles. Euro5 was introduced in 2011, so they're targetting cars older than 7 years. The cheating VW cars could meet Euro5 but not Euro6 so even then, this isn't even going to affect them until 2020 when it changes to all pre-Euro6 vehicles. VW really got off with a slap on the wrist in Germany for Dieselgate.
Good ruling (Score:2, Insightful)
Your right to pollute ends at the tip of my nose. If you want to drive a POS that generates choking, unhealthy pollution, move to a city or country that is willing to tolerate it. I'm not, and many like me are not.
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Totally agree. I think the point that diesel car owners are owed is a predictable regulatory regime where rules are announced and finalized in advance so they can plan accordingly.
The right of counties/cities to make rules is distinct from saying that they can change them on a whim.
Ban sales first (Score:2)
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Really, the government totally screwed up on this, driving themselves into a dead-end where only drastic measures will help.
lifecycle (Score:1)