100 Top Colleges Vow To Enroll More Low-Income Students (npr.org) 96
Research shows that just 3 percent of high-achieving, low-income students attend America's most selective colleges. And, it's not that these students just aren't there -- every year tens of thousands of top students who don't come from wealthy families never even apply to elite colleges. Universities are taking note -- and banding together under something called the American Talent Initiative -- a network backed by Bloomberg Philanthropies, the Aspen Institute and the research firm Ithaka S+R. To join the club, schools have to graduate 70 percent of their students in six years -- a qualification that leaves just under 300 schools in the U.S. eligible. Nearly a third of those schools -- exactly 100 -- have signed on. Their goal? Enroll 50,000 additional low- and moderate-income students by 2025. From a report: Each school has its own goals, too -- many want to increase the number of Pell Grant students on campus, others aim to improve graduation rates -- but they're all on board to share strategies, learn from each other's missteps and provide data to monitor their progress.
smart (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:smart (Score:5, Insightful)
Realizing that the "value" of the education from these institutions is bullshit?
The ivy league is about already being connected, and nothing else. The rest of the big players are all about selling the lie that college is for everyone and college guarantees success. More and more people are realizing that's bullshit. So higher education is increasingly being marketed to the dumb and poor as a path to financial success. It's about as truthful as marketing cigarettes and beer to the poor as a path to social status.
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Might be true for some disciplines, but not for disciplines like math. You can get a really good undergraduate and graduate degree in math at places like Harvard and Princeton, where the course level will be much higher in standard than other institutions. For example, you can do a course in commutative algebra there whereas a good but not "top" school won't have this course.
This is especially helpful for research areas that require a lot of background. If you can take the heavy course load/tons of problems
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Re: smart (Score:1)
I will be curious to see how well this statistic holds up after several years of this initiative. A big part of the reason schools like Harvard produce high-earners is because of the connections you get by going there, and a big part of why you get those connections is because so many of the people going there already have them. Low-income students are far less likely to have those connections; by enrolling more of them, does Harvard risk reducing their âoeconnections poolâ?
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Well of course you haven't hired them. You don't even know that MIT isn't in the Ivy League. Dumb!
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The only real value-added from "elite" colleges is the networking opportunities. For the most part, a college degree is a college degree.
Re:smart (Score:5, Interesting)
The fact is that you don't really need to get an undergraduate degree at an elite university. Most students will do just as well by a state school at a much lower cost. If they're really good they'll have the grades to prove it and I believe that the graduate programs at those elite universities offer a lot more value.
I also wouldn't be surprised if those elite colleges are under-recruiting from this segment because they've been trying to push a more culturally diverse recruitment policy for a while now. If you're recruiting goals call for for more students from some category, you'll wind up with fewer from some other category by definition.
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Harvard != Brown
Re:smart (Score:5, Insightful)
People who attend Ivy League schools earn more than their non -Ivy counterparts
C!=C. Students that are accepted by Ivy League schools but choose to enroll elsewhere, do just as well as those that do enroll. So the evidence is that these schools are not better at educating, but just good at attracting applicants and filtering admissions.
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This. Similarly, the graduation rate doesn't tell you how good the school is at teaching. It just tells you what percentage of bad students they filtered out before admission. The higher the percentage of weak students, the lower the graduation rate. Each drop of one point in high school GPA corresponds with a 2x reduction in graduation rate [qz.com].
In other words, this program doesn't give people a chance to attend the best schools, but rather gives people a chance to attend the most expensive, most elite sch
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People who attend Ivy League schools earn more than their non -Ivy counterparts
C!=C. Students that are accepted by Ivy League schools but choose to enroll elsewhere, do just as well as those that do enroll. So the evidence is that these schools are not better at educating, but just good at attracting applicants and filtering admissions.
Not necessarily. The students at Ivy League schools tend to come from wealthy, well-connected families. If they do just as well by not attending an Ivy League school, it may just mean that coming from a wealthy and well-connected family is sufficient advantage that going to an Ivy League school doesn't change much. The students that stand to gain the most from an elite education may very well be the very poor students who don't generally apply.
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Yeah sure. Tell that to the Wharton and Harvard Business Schools, or MIT or Stanford grads, The evidence is that starting salaries for grads are much higher, and there's a reason for it.
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This. I considered MIT. Once. Then I saw it was 30k a semester plus room and board.
I went to State.
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I also wouldn't be surprised if those elite colleges are under-recruiting from this segment because they've been trying to push a more culturally diverse recruitment policy for a while now.
I don't believe that "upper class" has been a recruiting priority for diversity programs for many years now, so they will not be overloading the mix. I think it is more likely that "lower class" and even, perhaps, "ethnic" are high-value recruiting targets, and thus those groups are not going to be under-recruited.
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Well, this is the main reason I didn't go to an "elite" college.
Re: smart (Score:2)
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Than you confirmed with the wrong people unless you're only talking IT...nobody gives a fuck where you learn IT. But engineering, business, medicine...there's a massive difference in starting pay from top schools.
Re: smart (Score:2)
Yes, that's how scholarships work
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There are a lot of factors.
Normally a lot of smart low-income students have a harder time getting the grades to get into these schools especially competing with wealthier students. Who can have paid tutelage. Study conditions that allow the child to learn. And just a more stable home environment.
Metrics such as grades. Only work with like students.
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So do metrics such as getting their work milestones done on time also act the same way? If so, then as an employer, I'm sorry their life sucked, but I wouldn't want them unless they could produce as much as their peers.
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How do grades coinside with what they can produce.
The grade metric is something that is often sold, or bargained for. The son of a senator may be dumb as a box of rocks, but he gets good grades because the teacher and the school doesn’t want to deal with such a powerful figure. Then he goes to a prestigious school he fails out in a semester, because such a school has so many powerful parents it just doesn’t care about the senator and his tantrums, and has their own resources to turn it around on
Need more information (Score:2)
What percentage of high-achieving, middle income students attend the most selective school? Is it more or less that 3%?
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What percentage of high-achieving, middle income students attend the most selective school? Is it more or less that 3%?
Doesn't matter.
The difference is that nobody would get heaps of praise for trying to bring in more middle income students.
Have to keep in mind what the goal is.
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"Many in their communities truly believe that academic success is a betrayal to the culture."
It surely can be when academic success leads to the maintenance or reinforcement of disparities.
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It surely can be when academic success leads to the maintenance or reinforcement of disparities.
Why are "disparities" important? If every household in a neighboorhood earns $30k per year, is that better than a neighborhood where some households earn $30k and others earn $60k?
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It surely can be when academic success leads to the maintenance or reinforcement of disparities.
I think it is almost a by-definition kind of statement that academic success creates disparity in success compared to drop-outs. Sometimes "disparity" is not a bad thing, like when half the group gets a high school diploma and the other half does not. It is certainly better than 90% not having any diploma at all.
Disparity is only a derogatory concept when one's success comes at the expense of another's failure. Getting a high school diploma or good grades does not force other people to get poor grades or m
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It's not a zero-sum game.
Yes it is. Everything is.
No child left behind? Grade inflation? People with 4 year of even graduate degrees being stuck slinging swill at Starbucks? An entire generation mired in debt that prevents them from owning property or maintaining any sort of savings? In a competitive market/society, this shit doesn't make sense and it doesn't work.
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Yes it is. Everything is.
No. Graduating from high school is not a zero-sum game. There isn't a limited number of diplomas to hand out, and only the first 100 get one. Everyone who qualifies gets one. The school will print as many as it needs. A program that results in a 10% increase in graduation for some group does not mean that another group loses 10% because there wasn't enough "graduation" to go around.
The same applies to colleges. There may be limits on how many students can be enrolled, but if 90% of the class graduates ins
Re:Need more information (Score:4, Interesting)
You're a clown.
It's not about diplomas or lack of diplomas. It's about jobs, stupid. ... Better get a college degree to separate yourself from the "basic" losers who only graduated high school. ... Better make sure it's from a $$$ 4-year "institution", not your perfectly respectable state/city/vocational college because that's worthless now too. ... Ivy league or bust. ... You're 28 and aren't yet working on your post doctoral research projects!?! How are you going to move out of your square foot studio???
If everyone has a high school diploma due to no child left behind, then you've got more competition. Better get that 4.0 GPA to get a good job to differentiate yourself from the people who would have otherwise flunked out.
If everyone has good grades due to grade inflation, then you've got more competition. Better get a 5.0 GPA instead to differentiate yourself from the people who benefited from grade inflation.
Employers simply see a wider market - of dumb and complacent fools. A bigger stone to wring more blood out of.
Eventually society pays the price as we realize that churning out degrees for the sake of churning out degrees devalues the degrees, results in stupid people being in the same group as competent people, and ultimately gives oligarchs more control over everyone. Education is fine and dandy, but requiring people to take 4 years of a foreign language, 2 years of performance arts, etc. to get a basic job is absurd. As is making them spend 4 years of their life taking on debt and learning pretty much nothing applicable to the bleak job market they'll enter 4 years later into life than they need to.
Higher education is marketed as a path upward. But for the vast majority of people, it's simply a path downward into debt and shitty job prospects. Most people would be better served entering the job market earlier and skipping the cost of college, or by joining the military, or by learning a trade (such as plumbing, carpentry, welding, etc.).
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I had you "foed" a long time ago for some reason I forget. Probably beefing over some shit I don't even care about anymore. You've redeemed yourself.
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Forgot to take your meds, huh?
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It's not about diplomas or lack of diplomas. It's about jobs, stupid.
No, moron. My comment was specifically about graduation. Here, I'll quote it for you:
The example of when disparity is not bad ("sometimes")
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Many more middle-income kids go to top schools than low income. I work with these kids. You have no idea how hostile their culture is to academic success unless you live there. I recognize it, but as a rich gringo I still don't really "get it". Many in their communities truly believe that academic success is a betrayal to the culture.
I'd say that sounds like a culture of failure, but I guess it's easier to duck responsibility and blame racism instead. I'm always perplexed at how some will argue that all cultures are equal despite massive and obvious performance differences and claim racism instead.
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Oops, yep that was me.
Started to post AC and thought I'd unchecked the box.
Strat
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and they drop out after never showing up, you get to keep the money!
There have been legislative proposals to reduce or ban student loans to students at schools with excessive dropout rates.
There have also been proposals to reduce or ban student loans at schools with excessive student loan default rates.
Another reform proposal is to reduce the taxpayer funded Sallie Mae repayment guarantee from 100% to 80-90% to ensure that lenders have some skin in the game.
so... (Score:2)
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That makes them elite? (Score:3)
70% graduation rate in 6 years can be achieved in two ways:
1. Only admit qualified students.
2. Pass everyone.
How about 70% graduation rate plus 70% get jobs, in field? Yes I know, they'd just corrupt the definition of 'in field'.
I'd say that their current method has produced a list of 'elite schools' plus 'diploma mills'.
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There's also #3 - cook the books.
Some schools have affiliated branch campuses that only offer two year degrees. Low achieving students from the main campus are "encouraged" to transfer away from the main campus, then they back fill with the top students from the branches; that magically makes the graduation rate go up.
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That only works if they are qualified students. Otherwise you are tutoring them in middle school subjects, which they didn't get the first two times. Good luck.
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The vast majority of the population that can be arsed to make an effort. After two failures, it's on them to learn how to learn and prove it. Enough disruption.
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Um, then don't take the fucking loan.
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A few of the Ivy's (not sure about all, but it may be) do not give loans at all. At Princeton if you make 65k/year or less, you will be 100% covered for tuition, fees, room and board. Heck, a family of 4 making 100k would only pay 5k for Princeton.
They are becoming more like tech schools with (Score:2)
They are becoming more like tech schools with there marketing with an degree you can make x an year and XX% Our Grads are working in their field. Starbucks seems to fit in to a lot Fields in their minds. But unlike the tech schools they are not as hands on, come with forced high cost meal planes and forced high cost dorms
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XX% Our Grads are working in their field. Starbucks seems to fit in to a lot Fields in their minds.
And in turn, Starbucks has a generous tuition reimbursement program for employees. It's a vicious cycle!
Affordability (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a reason Colleges are called billion dollar hedge funds. The saying is Harvard is a hedge fund with a college attached.
College tuition keeps going up, the colleges know they will get paid. Kids cant file for bankruptcy if they cant pay their loans because they can't find work.
Go to a local community college, its the same price of buying a car for 4 years, and people can generally make car payments. In state online 5k, in state 10k, out of state 20k, Private 30k, Harvard 45k (starting). While everyone wants a Tesla, some can only afford a Prius. Costs matter.
The whole thing is a racket, overpriced, scam.
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The cost of tuition of the worst college will always grow to meet the highest available amount of financial assistance.
p.s. Q: What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in medical school? A: Doctor.
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Reminded me of my favorite joke of that genre...
What do you call a girl who uses the rhythm method? Mommy.
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As long as it's mostly rich folks falling for it, I'm good with that.
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Take Khan academy as an example or any other
Re:Hmm (Score:4, Informative)
While I think that increasing opportunity for undeserved communities is laudable, I do think that you should be honest about the issues in poor communities. From TFA:
I'm 100 percent convinced that talent is distributed uniformly across society. There's no data to suggest that if you happen to be born into a less well-to-do family you are somehow less intelligent.
This is just not true. SAT scores are or were roughly an IQ test. They show a clear correlation to income, as outlined in this article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
There may be any number of causes of this, but denying the facts will likely lead to under prepared students starting and failing at college.
Interestingly, high SAT scores have not been shown to be correlated to student achievement in college. In face, many colleges are moving to test-optional admission strategies after a 2014 study involving 123,000 students at 33 colleges showed virtually no statistical difference between GPA and graduation rates between students that did and did not submit standardized test scores.
Unfortunately a different study has also concluded that it is unlikely that adoption of test-optional admission policies would will boost enrollment of underrepresented minority and low-income students. The study examined 180 selective liberal arts colleges, 32 of which had adopted test-optional policies between 1992 and 2010. It compared colleges with test-optional policies against colleges that required test scores. The 32 test optional schools did not see any statistical increase in enrollment of low-income or black, latino, or native american students compared with the larger group of 180 schools. This result was unexpected, but the report authors hypothesized that this might be due to the fact that by de-emphasizing standarized tests, more weight was put on extra-curriculars and AP/IB coursework which continue to have unequal opportunities/access across income and minority status.
Sadly, from my history of admissions work with my alma mater, the two highest correlating factors for academic success were: 1. parental income; and 2. one-or-more parents graduating from college. You might say #1 is probably highly correlated with #2 so a large driver of college success is a student fulfilling the expectations of their college educated parents, which sort of perpetuates the have vs have-not split.
Next on the list that showed correlation is adjusted (i.e., no-extra points for AP/IB classes) High-school GPA in core-curricula classes (A's in underwater basket weaving don't count). The main complication with adjusted GPA comparison between applicants is normalizing them across schools (different grade inflation factors in different schools). In a highly selective school, it doesn't matter too much (most of your applicants will have mostly A's), but it's much more difficult to normalize the middle of the grading scales between disparate high schools to compare applicants.
The SAT II (subject test) showed a reasonably correlation to college GPA, but not graduation rates.
The general SAT score correlations to college success ranked below sustained (e.g., over 2 years) extracurricular activities, and coming from a well-known "feeder" school (a HS where lots of people apply to a specific college), but both showed weak-to-no correlation that varied from year-to-year like the generic SAT. The "feeder" effect seemed to indicate that groups of students that have a history of academic success tend to do better than isolated individuals (which indicated the advantage of support groups in college leading to higher college success).
Your mileage may vary, though...
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With grade inflation, I find using GPA as a metric of "success" sadly suspect. What correlation is there between SAT scores* and success in life after graduation?
*Under the old model. Not to be confused with that thing they call an SAT today.
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With grade inflation, I find using GPA as a metric of "success" sadly suspect. What correlation is there between SAT scores* and success in life after graduation?
*Under the old model. Not to be confused with that thing they call an SAT today.
As I mentioned, before adjusted GPA is a good measure of *relative* performance. People with higher GPAs from a specific high school have better college success than those with lower GPAs, although normalizing the grade inflation between different schools is hard.
There are some studies that indicate higher SAT scores can lead to higher incomes, but this was a secondary correlation that is only significant when you corrected for different bachelor degrees (which made the most main difference in future income
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The fact that there's no statistical difference between GPA and graduation rates between students that did and did not submit standardized test scores does not mean that there's no correlation between those test scores and achievement. In fact, there is such a correlation. See:
https://www.vox.com/cards/sat/ [vox.com]... [vox.com]
http://files.eric.ed.gov/fullt [ed.gov]... [ed.gov]
Just a quick point, the study these articles are pointing to reference a College Board study indicating a correlation between SAT and college achievement. College Board is the publisher of the SAT test. This is like referring to a study funded by the pasta industry that concludes pasta is good for you [slashdot.org]...
Other points in those articles highlight the same point I made before: HS GPA is a better indicator than SAT and SAT hasn't been shown by many admissions studies to have a significant statistically indepen
Low-Income bad credit no credit no problem! (Score:2)
Just about any one can get an student loan.
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If I could loan someone money that they could never default on, and never declare bankruptcy to get rid of....I wouldn't, because I'm not a fucking sleazy asshole. But there are enough of them that they've both made this system and have taken advantage of it.
The student loan racket is obscene. The year my wife and I paid that shit off was almost better than the year we got married. Because frankly, we can get out of marriage if it goes south. But we couldn't get out off student loans.
Waste of time (Score:1)
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