Canada Facing 'Brain Drain' As Young Tech Talent Leaves For Silicon Valley (theglobeandmail.com) 326
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Globe and Mail: Canada's best and brightest computer engineering graduates are leaving for jobs in Silicon Valley at alarmingly high rates, fueling a worse "brain drain" than the mass exodus by Canadian doctors two decades ago, according to a new study. The study, led by Zachary Spicer, a senior associate with the Munk School of Global Affairs' Innovation Policy Lab at University of Toronto, found one-in-four recent science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) graduates from three of the country's top universities -- University of Waterloo, University of British Columbia and U of T -- were working outside Canada. The numbers were higher for graduates of computer engineering and computer science (30 percent), engineering science (27 percent) and software engineering, where two out three graduates were working outside Canada, mostly in the United States. Nearly 44 percent of those working abroad were employed as software engineers, with Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Amazon listed as top employers.
Damn right (Score:5, Informative)
If were young again, I would leave Montreal as if it were a medieval plague city.
Sky high taxes, dirty, gray downtown, corruption everywhere, low wages, endless regulations, terrible weather.
Young people! You are free! Enjoy what you can.
Re:Damn right (Score:5, Funny)
Re: Damn right (Score:4, Funny)
Like a parasite leaving the heart for the rectum.
Re: Damn right (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Damn right (Score:5, Informative)
But if I were going to live in Canada, it would definitely be somewhere in BC. Lots of beautiful country up there.
Re: (Score:2)
A lot of property is being bought up by Chinese investors
That is only half the problem. The other half is severe restrictions on new construction.
for tax purposes
It is not about taxes. China is backsliding into a Mao-style personality cult, and Xi Jinping is talking up "traditional" socialist values, while using "anti-corruption" to target his political enemies. This could go in some really bad directions, so prosperous Chinese are looking to move money abroad so they have a bolt hole if there is another Cultural Revolution.
This is bad for China, but is a GOOD THING for Canad
Re: Damn right (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I think it's the other way around now
Indeed. a few months ago the headline was exactly reversed:
ANTI-TRUMP TECH WORKERS ARE DITCHING THE U.S. FOR CANADA
âoeWeâ(TM)re seeing a reverse brain drain for the first time.â
https://www.vanityfair.com/new... [vanityfair.com]
So, which one is it? Judging by the housing prices still shooting upwards, I think it's more that Canadians are coming here than vice versa.
Re: (Score:2)
So, which one is it? Judging by the housing prices still shooting upwards, I think it's more that Canadians are coming here than vice versa.
Dumbass Americans are moving to Canada and intelligent Canadians are moving to the US.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Damn right (Score:5, Interesting)
Vancouver is getting as bad as San Fran is, especially with the homelessness and rampant public drug use. It was bad 10 years ago, it's gone downhill since then. Seriously, I fully get why young Canadians are trying to GTFO from Canada. The taxes are high but you see no return. Whether it's at the city, provincial, or federal level. The government(federal and many provincial governments) would rather throw money at illegals entering the country then help people who desperately need help. A person can be disabled, qualify for disability, and not get anything at all. No financial help, no training, no tax deferments. The number of disabled who now live full-time and dependent on their parents has gone through the roof. Workers Comp(WSIB) in the most populated province in Canada(Ontario) almost never pays out to workers who are injured on the job(94% refusal rate), so good luck if you get a life changing injury. If you need low income housing, in most places the wait is between 4-10 years. Healthcare quality is decreasing in nearly every province. It's becoming a rampant politically correct mess, where people fear speaking out on issues because we have a kangaroo court system that can fine you into oblivion and leave you financially ruined so you can't take it through the normal courts to try and clear it up. The current government is pushing anti-egalitarian laws, best example is their desire to modify the law on sexual assault so exculpatory evidence can't be used.
Energy prices are through the roof, but wages are stagnant. Gasoline, NG, electricity are massively expensive. Housing prices are touching the moon, and wages are stagnant. $500k for a 40 year old house, in areas where the media income is $41k, $1.8m house prices in $70k median income. Provincial governments are doing stupid things like trying to ban NG and oil for heating and forcing people to use electricity only. Again in Canada's most populous province(Ontario), the government had to ban winter disconnection of electricity for fear of people freezing to death. Roughly 1:5 people are 3 months or more behind on their electricity bills.
Many provincial governments(Liberal and NDP) are pushing "service industry" policies for jobs, and trying to push out manufacturing jobs. Ontario again, a great example. The same province, pushed $15/h minimum wage and in the first fiscal quarter after it was implemented the economy lost nearly 50k PT jobs, the high min. wage has basically stalled the economy.
Yep, I full get why they want to GTFO. And I live in Ontario.
Re: Damn right (Score:5, Insightful)
The 50k job loss was expected. It's a short term decline that happens with every minimum wage increase which is inevitably recovered within about a year. 100% of the increase at the bottom end is spent because it's still impossible for the poor to save money, they just end up with slightly more to spend on the things they need. Thus, in the long term it grows the economy by circulating that money through the economy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The difference is that when you have a kangaroo court that can fine you into oblivion for making factual statements, and directly quoting someone. You have a serious problem in your apparent democracy. These aren't criminal courts, they're "human rights" courts and it's enough that a person can ruin your life because "they feel offended by what you say." They're also insanely biased, a recent example where a muslim would only rent to muslims was perfectly okay. But a christian only renting to christians
Re: (Score:3)
Your ignorant "analysis" of Gladue reports is enough to mark you as an utter moran. Go hang you racist cunt.
Go tell it to the 3yr old girl who was repeatedly anally raped by her own father, required 24 surgeries and the native offender was given 6mo weekends only, and was released on his own recog before trial. Why don't you go look up the case on Gerald Stanley, who was put on trial for shooting the native. The native who'd had a laundry list of criminal offenses from assault (physical disfigurement of a person w/weapon), multiple instances of robbery(w/weapon) and so on. Oh did I mention he was a great examp
Re: (Score:2)
You have that the wrong way around. If you're desperate enough to murder someone you're probably beyond considering the consequences.
Parking in front of a fire hydrant on the other hand could become a thing of the past.
Re: Damn right (Score:5, Insightful)
So why the hell didn't you GTFO yet? You should be very happy in the US with its neo-feudalist/protofascist shit laws, dirt cheap filthy energy, and large community of deplorables (meaning racist/xenophobic/otherwise bigoted hatemongers). They still have stagnant wages like most of the planet, but you might be satisfied to blame that on illegal immigrants there.
Oh boy, I sure do like the progressives. The ones that are so out of touch that they think that anyone who doesn't fall in line should be attacked. So, my dear progressive moron. Please explain why Quebec said "that's it, we're full" on illegals crossing from the US. It broke their bank, and they had to send a bill to the federal government for reimbursement. Why don't you explain, why Ontario is also right at the breaking point, again from all those illegals.
Now why don't you explain why there have been more illegals entering from the US then actual refugees from Syria. When you're done that, you can explain where we're going to get all this money for taking care of them. Then you can explain why Trudeau, after saying "Canada welcomes illegals" is suddenly looking to Trump and asking in very nice and polite words, if they could help Canada deal with the massive influx of illegals crossing into Canada from the US. Oh, and by "help" they mean, please deport them to their country of origin.
It's a real shame that wannabe-American Canadians like you aren't given honorary American citizenship so you can fuck off to your utopia. Maybe the two countries could work out a liberal/deplorable citizen exchange program?
It's a real shame that individuals like yourself who think money grows on trees, and is perfectly okay with people ghettoizing entire areas of a city is great. Hey, you wonder why Toronto and Ottawa have both had a massive jump in gun crime, stabbings, and violent assaults? Please explain why this is happening just "particular" areas. Can you explain with even the barest trickle of illegals being granted temporary residency that in small cities(under 50k) where they may have 2 rapes/year, have seen 40-80 in a year...suddenly, and the people arrested just "happen" to fall into one particular racial and economic demographic.
It's almost like importing/allowing illegals in who have no care for the law, refuse to assimilate, and view women as worthless cause serious stability problems in society. Hey, maybe while you're at it you can go look at the UK which did something similar, and there's over 20 cites now with massive "asian" child rape gangs, and the police and government looked the other way while the rampant abuse was going on. Hey, while you're at it, why don't you go ask the local police boards in Ontario, why they're trying to push the EXACT same policies on police services in Ontario, that created that massive level of abuse in the UK.
Re: (Score:2)
Well that made my morning! Somehow, your line reminded me of the movie "The Bothersome Man". [imdb.com]
The scene were he's digging in the basement.
Re: (Score:2)
Turanno is definitely looking good these days. I have a few leads over there but I am a purple-scaled horned dinosaur as I work in hardware. I'm not young, I'm not pretty, and I have nothing but scorn for what passes for "software" these days.
I don't care about AI, 3D printing, social media, or any of the dozens of increasingly incomprehensible and dubious phone-based "services" plagued with ads and no privacy.
If I could, I'd work on 60GHz systems at work and use a AM radio and CB at home. In other words, I
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Hey, a Montrealer!
The problem with Montreal is that when you're young you're willing to ignore all that stuff because people like to go out and party a lot and everyone insists that it's the greatest city on the planet. By the time most people realize there's a downside, they're so far behind everyone else that they can't leave.
Re:Damn right (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, that describes it quite well.
" everyone insists that it's the greatest city on the planet."
I think the reason for this is quite simple: when you're young, you're surrounded by young people. Pretty much anywhere is the greatest place to be when you're surrounded and accepted by young people. (Barring war and disasters)
I experienced this in the 1990s, I was a 20-something doing equipment installations in factories in Poland and the Czech Republic. In my spare time I went out and was immediately welcomed and accepted by the local young people and I had a blast.
Now I'm in my 40s and life is now a mix between being invisible or viewed with suspicion. It's like humans have the life cycle of a barnacle. A few years floating around with millions of baby barnacles, then decades being attached to a house and marriage, and only seeing the 4 or 5 nearest barnacles while the ocean passes you by.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Are you sure you're not talking about Canada in general? I for one am sick and tired of the high taxes (especially income tax) - maybe a lot of people have already reached their limit and are leaving. After all, tech is a highly mobile job.
Re:Damn right (Score:4, Interesting)
"Are you sure you're not talking about Canada in general?"
I haven't lived anywhere else in Canada, so I don't know.
"After all, tech is a highly mobile job."
It sure is, and from the employer's point of view this is great advantage, whereas as the employee, you have to physically move...
You must be young because selling a house and moving a family is not trivial. What do you do once you're in SV and somehow something better pops up yet somewhere else?
Re: Damn right (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Assuming your spouse can find a job or doesn't need/want to work...
Rent out your home. Furnished.
Rent something where you're going. Furnished.
Send your kids to the local public school.
If you can't take your car, buy something where you're going for $5000, used.
Many people over-think this kind of thing, and are far too attached to personal possessions.
Re: Damn right (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
How old are you? Do you own or rent?
What parts of it are fantastic that you think don't exist anywhere else?
What is shitty about Toronto?
What does Montreal being cheap have to do with not finding properly paid jobs?
Re: (Score:2)
As a Montreal's solution architect, I can't contradict you. I just leave a job because of corruption and incompetence, I'm so tired of this shit everywhere here. I just over 50, and I can't get over it anymore. people try to avoid working by arguing over everything. Sucking couillard is the new orange!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Damn right (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
"And education system that's been gutted."
That I can believe.
"If I had it to do over again I'd moved to Canada in a heartbeat."
I would too. Then I would get some edumacashun.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
" Free healthcare. "
You clearly don't have a clue. Let me know when you want me to regale you with my experiences of our "free" "healthcare" system.
I can read statistics (Score:2)
Opponents of single payer like to point out that Canadians come here for heart surgery, ignoring that it's because we have more heart surgeons. Meanwhile 45,000 Americans die every year from completely preventable diseases. I saw a heart doc here for some palpatations. I have some of the best healthcare in the country and he told me t
Re:Good Schools (Score:4, Interesting)
It's difficult for people to understand that we are taxed like a socialist country but get services like a capitalist country. The corporate takeover of our government is slowly but surely happening, one step at a time.
Re: Good Schools (Score:2, Informative)
"Free" healthcare. Sure. "Free." You pay a fee for an ambulance, you pay hospital fees for some things, and the medication you need ends up not being covered by the "all medications for people under 25 are free" program that the lying, idiot Wynne government puts in place.
Then on top of that, you'really paying outrageous taxes for everything, and needed surgeries can take literally years to schedge.
I'd rather pay premiums for a system that works, TYVM.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Good Schools (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Then on top of that, you'really paying outrageous taxes for everything, and needed surgeries can take literally years to schedge.
I can't mod because I posted. See my post above: my experience [slashdot.org]
A cursory google search (Score:3)
Facts are overwhelmingly on the side of single payer healthcare. And this is not at all surprising. When in your life has a middle man been a good thing? Especially a middle man who is actively trying to keep you from using the service you paid for? You do understand that insurance companies make money when they collect premiums and don't pay claims?
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed, TINSTAAFL.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't sustainable. :-/
the right to bare ARMs (Score:2)
Yes, but robbing Peter to pay Peter comes a lot closer, both to the truth, and to sustainability.
I'm going to read that / as a jaunty cigar.
Have you ever hard that possession is nine-tenths of the law [wikipedia.org]?
There's a huge government apparatus to (generously) define the boundaries of intellectual property, so that Peter can litigate in public courts (well below the net cost of the institution) to Peter's great advantage.
Without the fiat power of government, there wou
Re: (Score:2)
Free healthcare.
The wait times are insane: see this for a 2017 report [fraserinstitute.org].
A wait of 21 weeks to see the surgeon? In non-SPH country I got an appt for a surgeon the day after I saw the GP.
I spoke to a candian recently who waited two weeks for an MRI. Apparently that is normal. I waited 30 minutes for the MRI after seeing the neurosurgeon, and four days later I had my operation.
Did it cost? Certainly, but that's what my medical insurance is for and they covered it almost fully. The co-pay was small enough that I didn't care
Re: (Score:2)
(1) Those are AVERAGE wait times ... wait times for more serious conditions are shorter.
(2) Given your welfare recipient vs active member example, who says the welfare recipient, if they were in better health, won't be able to work and contribute?
(3) Furthermore, who says the welfare recipient isn't poor because of lack of opportunities afforded them be society. US education and professional opportunities are highly unequal by area, income level, and (yes) ethnicity.
Treating everyone equally is a good t
Re: (Score:2)
Given your welfare recipient vs active member example, who says the welfare recipient, if they were in better health, won't be able to work and contribute?
I didn't say they wouldn't, I said they aren't. Given a contributing member of society and a non-contributing member of society, it makes sense that the contributors are sent back to work as soon as possible.
Having everyone go into the same queue is inefficient.
Treating everyone equally is a good thing -- human life shouldn't be valued on how much money people make. Another example. Should a teacher in Arizona making $25,000/yr be considered less valuable than some roided-up sports star making $10,000,000 a year?
Firstly, what I think about the sports star and the teacher is irrelevant - society currently values the sports star more and that's the way it is. Would you prefer that the $25k teacher be away from work for a month because they're waiting in a qu
Re: (Score:2)
Urgency and probability of success of a given treatment.
I can't say that I could decide between the welfare recipient and teacher without further information. Remember, Edison died rich and Tesla died penniless. The sports star? Proof that society is full of dumb people who mis-value others' "value."
You're toeing the Christian prosperity gospel line, that wealth and financial success are somehow tied to being a good or deserving person. I call nonsense on this -- it's a bunch of crap fed to stupid peopl
Re: (Score:2)
You're toeing the Christian prosperity gospel line
For the decade and more that I've been on slashdot I've always been open about being an atheist. Search my posting history; you'll see it.
I do not get to decide what society values. Seriously, I don't. However (and this is the important point you missed in your rush to virtue signal) placing workers interests ahead of non-workers interests does not mean that you are denying non-workers any health care.
I like having health services delivered in minutes, so I pay for that and the current system allows me to
Re: (Score:3)
You may claim to be an atheist, but you've been infected with the US idea that wealth == value to society and are parroting it.
That $25k/yr teacher? Say she pays 20% effective tax rate. You're left with $20k/yr. Housing? $600/mo or $7200/hr. Down to $12800. Car insurance. $1000/yr, down to $11800. Food, $200/mo or $2400/yr. Down to $9400. Utilities in Arizona, $200/mo, down to $7000. Any student loans? 10% of income, $2500/yr, down to $5500. Car repairs/lease, $2000/yr, down to $3500. Clothing,
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Unlikely (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Unlikely (Score:3, Informative)
Wasnâ(TM)t it just weeks ago when a Slashdot article was proclaiming Trump is causing a brain drain with techies fleeing to Canada? And they are all reversing course within weeks?
Re: Unlikely (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Or it could be both things happening. Young Canadian talent is moving to the USA and older USAmerican talent is moving to Canada.
Re: Unlikely (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
No American is desperate enough to move to Canada. Even when they hit 30. They would rather accept their fate.
Carrousel time?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
It's about time a Smart American commented!
Re: Unlikely (Score:2)
Sure, but then you have to live in the same city as all those politicians.....
Re: (Score:2)
Well you see, they aren't actually fleeing anything ... in either direction. These are bright young folks. They are out to enjoy themselves and have fun. They have a plan. They'll see if they can keep running back and forth fast enough to start the continent rocking. First it'll be a subtle wobbling, but eventually they'll find the right frequency. Then the fun will begin.
Re: Unlikely (Score:2)
And they are all reversing course within weeks?
Like motherfucking alternating current, baby.
Re: (Score:2)
This is unlikely, since we all know from comments on Slashdot that the US is a third world hellhole no one would want to even visit, much less live in. Surely they meant they fled to Europe, which as we all know is a welcoming, enlightened place for humans to live in peace and harmony.
They are leaving for the coastal area of California, which has little in common with most of the US. It even has little in common with the non-coastal areas of California.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Despite your best efforts to fill up every single thread reently there are actually multiple people here with different opinions. Fancy that!
Re: (Score:2)
awwww I've got an AC stalker. So cute!
Re: (Score:2)
"Mass exodus" (Score:2)
So, people are moving around ? (Score:5, Informative)
Two weeks ago, we learned that Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada [slashdot.org].
Do the stories cancel out ?
Will we get a follow-up story about (for example) how young Canadians come to the Silicon Valley to get credentials, then leave because of the high cost of living / insecurity over employee buses attacks ?
Re:So, people are moving around ? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
So Canada is the same as everywhere else? (Score:2)
AFAICT, top grads from top schools move to Silicon Valley. Period. We only have a couple of the top schools in the bay area so that implies that the rest of them are coming from top schools outside the bay area. We have top people from Waterloo, Georgia Tech, IIT, basically everywhere. It's not even complicated, the top jobs are mostly here, most people don't want to play second fiddle in a securities trading shop or insurance company when they can be top dogs in a software firm. Silicon Valley's posit
Contradictory stories (Score:2)
I thought the techies were leaving the US for Canada [slashdot.org] because they couldn't stand Trump?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A fair number of the IT world do go to Silicon Valley due to the wages and opportunities. Canadian IT wages are a joke for the most part. That said, it's because we have a higher level of general computing knowledge. It's a good thing in that we are fairly computer literate, but it's also a bad thing because there's a lot of people who've gotten minimal education in IT and are filling roles they have no business being in. Security is going to be a big problem here.
need more data (Score:2)
yeah, but Canada is picking up engineers (Score:2)
Make up your mind. (Score:3, Informative)
The 90s called... (Score:2)
... and they want their news back.
Old news is so exciting.
I slowly but surely get it. (Score:2)
15 years ago a buddy told me "you have nothing lost here in Germany, you should go check out Silicon Valley". For just about 2 decades I've dealt with plain and utter idiiots when it comes to IT and the Web and professional work in those fields and it's slowly dawning on me: The places where I can meet people who understand me are very rare and one of those places where I would be in my waters professionally is Silicon Valley and the bay area.
At a certain point it becomes more and more difficult to even mov
1 in 4 seems very very low (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
People read too much into this. (Score:2)
This just means that the Silicon Valley computer industry is larger than any Canadian counterparts. People go where there are the most jobs in their field. Tech companies in particular locate jobs where qualified people are looking.
That creates a Catch-22, and there's something to be said for a contrarian strategy where you locate jobs where the cost of living means people can live better on lower salaries. But it doesn't entirely negate the networking effect advantages of being the biggest technology c
typical effect of redistribution (Score:2)
When you institute redistribution in a society, the people who are redistributed to like it, and the people who are redistributed from leave.
So, the problem with socialism is not that you run out of other people's money, it's that you run out of highly productive people whose money you can take.
Understandable (Score:2)
I live in Vancouver. I'd totally pack up and head to the states if I wasn't sharing custody of my kids, who go to school here. It's an instant 40% raise as soon as you cross the border, especially when you consider the USD/CAD spread. Salaries in Vancouver are terrible even before you start considering the cost of housing, and the government markets us as a place to get world-class talent at cut-rate prices, so that's unlikely to change.
This is a salary problem (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a US citizen that moved to Toronto because I loved the city. What I found is that the tech jobs just don't pay there, while the city is rapidly increasing in price. My understanding is Vancouver isn't much different. I took a pay cut to move there, and ultimately left for a Seattle-based job. After the exchange rate, my salary in Seattle is double that of Toronto - while the cost of living isn't that much more. I talked to many tech people in Toronto, and never found someone who was making 6 figures Canadian even.
I would love to move back to Toronto, but the low salaries, high cost of living, and poor benefits (most companies only wanted to offer 2 weeks of vacation time, and my company didn't even offer retirement plans) made it a poor financial decision for me. If Canada wants to stop the brain drain, they need to fix the salary problem.
Canada vs USA (Score:3)
Reasons I never moved from Canada:
1) I wanted kids, and didn't want to pay for some stranger to bring them to swimming classes, music classes. Having my parents do it saved me thousands, and the kids got to know their grandparents.
2) I like nature, prefer at least an acre of land. Definitely don't want to live in some concrete land where you can touch your house and the next one at the same time. I like a private lot.
3) I don't like spending time in a car
4) Cheap mortgage
5) We still have communities here. Our kids played on the front street with other kids in the neighborhood, while the neighbors chatted. IN the US it seems like everyone just looks out for themselves.
6) Peace of mind for healthcare. I have to dick around with insurance companies for dental and I hate it. Can't imagine fighting for health. We ended up having a lot of health issues in my family and I would have hit a lifetime cap a long, long time ago. I would have been bankrupt right now.
I always put a cost to myself and my family on those things and no matter what job offer came up, it just wouldn't cover it.
Re: (Score:2)
Wait, What? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hilarious!
"I live along a pristine area where eagles follow my bike above on sunny days and I get to see the sunset over the beach. I could not leave a veritable garden of Eden"
Classic.
Re: Let me correct that now (Score:2)
The people had some pretty severe dental challenges and seemed a little 'methed up'.
I see you've been to Oklahoma, my favorite place ever.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well work "in" vs "on".
Re: (Score:2)