Coastal Megacity Karachi Is Running Out of Water (earther.com) 286
The Pakistani megacity of Karachi, home to more than 20 million people, is among the most water-stressed cities in the world, only able to meet half of its daily water demand. From a report: Karachi requires 1,100 million of gallons per day (mgd), but only receives 550 mgd, according to the Karachi Water and Sewerage Board (KWSB). Karachi's water is sourced from the Indus River via Keenjhar Lake, which sits more than 90 miles away from the city. The water shortage in Karachi is linked to myriad factors including climate change, mismanagement of water resources, and corruption. Most of all, however, a rising population increasing at a rate of 4.5 percent a year creates a strain on the finite water supply. Pakistan ranks in the top ten of countries worst affected by climate change, and water shortages are likely to deepen in both intensity and frequency in the coming decade.
That's nothing (Score:2, Funny)
I'm running out of beer and the Grocery Outlet is closed and I'm too buzzed to drive. And I'm supposed to be upset because Karachi's running out of water just because there are 20 million people there? You SJWs really suck, you know that? Who's going to stand up for me, huh? Nobody, that's who. Wait, I think I just heard my neighbor come home. I bet he's got some beer. Never mind.
Happy Memorial Day everybody!
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it's a long story, but a thirsty friend dropped by unannounced earlier to watch the Eastern Conference Finals and the next thing you know my strategic reserves were running low. But I'm one of those loaves and fishes kind of Episcopalians who will give you the shirt of his back and the beer out his fridge, so I unselfishly and without regard for my own well-being shared what I had. Because I'm like that.
Re: That's nothing (Score:2)
Are you gasping for air, as you flip around in the bottom of that boat? You shouldn't have struck on that fishing plug. Anybody could have told you there was a hook. Granted, you've been hooked by a master, so you didn't really stand a chance.
Re: That's nothing (Score:4, Insightful)
Quintupling your population is not sustainable (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Quintupling your population is not sustainable (Score:5, Insightful)
Harsh as it sounds, that is exactly the core problem: If you bred like crazy in a resource-starved situation, you will eventually run into mass die-off that normalizes your population numbers to something far lower. Of course, this also comes with a civilization collapse when it happens to a human population. In theory, a human population can avoid this catastrophe by restricting its own breeding to what is sustainable, but apparently this one here cannot.
Or in other words, they are going towards a horrible catastrophe, all of their own making.
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The population growth of a city (4.5% in this case) is completely unrelated to the population growth of the country. Cities grow because people move there. ... which is quite ok.
Parkistans population growth is 2%
yet another appeal to comic inflation (Score:2)
You mean another five-fold growth over the next 65 years? Funny thing about exponential curves: another 45 years of Moore's law would require re-inventing the atom.
Exponential growth is not sustainable. That's what "exponential" actually means. There's two kinds of inflation in this world: comic inflation, and cosmic inflation. Only cosmic inflation never runs out of elbow room. News for Nerds, now in high middl
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Pakistan no longer has "exponential" growth. It has 2.62 kids per mother [cia.gov], in a country where the replacement rate is probably about 2.4. That's barely above replacement fertility.
"Before the BC epoch, clerics everywhere did a tidy little business in tiny tombstones." - that was due to lack of antibiotics and clean water, not lack of birth control.
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Increases rain ... somewhere.
Bit not where you need/want it.
Re: Quintupling your population is not sustainabl (Score:3, Interesting)
Right, because they get their water from the same place.
You fucking idiots will do anything to try and blame shit on the US.
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Each of Berlin's residents uses an average of 110 litres of water per day. (Or for the americans, about 29.3 gallons).
In Portland for example, residents use 50 gallons per day. But honeslty there is no comparison - there is NO water shortage in Portland, in fact they have more water than they know what to do with.
As do the majority of US cities.
Phoenix/Las Vegas will soon suffer the same fate as Karachi. The Colorado river is drying up and being used more as there are more people and swimming pools and less
Re: Quintupling your population is not sustainable (Score:5, Informative)
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Especially Ellicott City this weekend [baltimoresun.com].
And the CO river is not drying up. It's being sucked up.
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We have so much groundwater here that we pump it into rivers to keep our basements dry. We still use only about as much water for personal use as Karachi currently uses per person. Granted, with industrial and agricultural use, we use more than 40 times as much, but is that really comparable? We have more water than we know what to do with, so there's not really a point in conserving it, but I guarantee that our waste water is cleaner than Karachi's. We have a separate drain system for rain, so that waste w
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Climate change is real, but Karachi's problem are not caused by it.
It is not the main cause, but less rain and less slow and less glaciers in the Himalaya are not really helpful.
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You bring up an interesting point. Every controlling structure has some resource that is key to maintaining or increasing its influence. In most governments, this is in arms or mining or even food production. But for religion, the most important resource is population. One common theme in any religion is they strongly oppose anything that affects population growth. They're against abortion, and very against birth control. All of them. They desperately want their followers to breed like rabbits, becau
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One common theme in any religion is they strongly oppose anything that affects population growth. That is nonsense.
They're against abortion, and very against birth control. All of them.
That is double nonsense.
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How helpful.... You could potentially have cited an example rather than simply state that it's "double nonsense".
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The Shakers [wikipedia.org] are a religious group who require celibacy.
That's one example. There are less extreme examples too.
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And yet, you continue to fail to provide such an example. If it's easy to disprove it, simply do so. Most of us are quite familiar with several major religions that follow the poster's claim, however we're not necessarily aware of any that do not.
I'm not actually picking a side here, I'm just saying that your comment doesn't add anything to the discussion unless you include the example that proves the poster wrong.
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Buddhist, Hinduists, Christians, Shinto, non is preaching unreasonable population increase.
And I doubt Moslems or Jews do. In the old testament God told mankind to spread out. But since the planet is full with humanns no one is really preaching more growth (because it actually never was part of the religion anyways)
Why should anyone care to prove a poster wrong who is a racist and an idiot?
Re:Quintupling your population is not sustainable (Score:4, Interesting)
They can't just step in and say "Hey, this is actually turning out to be BAD for us now, please stop!" They're kinda stuck with it. It takes generations to ease a religious body through a major change, and unfortunately this whole "climate change" thing and "global population booms" has come up a faster than these religious groups can change course to match.
I can only speak for Norway but... 105 years since women got the vote. 57 years since the first female priest. 46 years since homosexuality was decriminalized. 40 years since legalized abortion. 25 years ago since the first female bishop and gay partnership law. 9 years ago since gay marriage. That's all (barely) in living memory. The church has shown an amazing ability to morph into a quasi-spiritual organization for all people who believe in souls and an afterlife as their worldly teachings have been stripped away and the fire and brimstone parts tucked away as not very PC.
The truth is that it's not their teachings on condoms and birth control that makes the most difference, it's their position on women. If you look at all the shittiest countries the men work, the women are at home popping out 5-6-7 children and raising them to adulthood. They don't have jobs, they don't have education, many of them aren't even literate... but they can breed and no matter how dirt poor people are today we don't let kids starve to death. Once women start having their own career, birth rates drop like a rock. Working mom with three kids is doable, six kids is almost impossible.
And all religions are quite capable of adjusting their teachings to accommodate that. Take an Islamic theocracy like Iran, nearly 70% of university graduates in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) are women. They got a birth rate of about 1.7, same as many western countries. If they can do it, any country can. Take a look at Rosling's "peak child" statistics video to see how much some countries really did change in 50 years, both Christian nations, Islamic nations and Eastern religion nations.
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They're ... very against birth control. All of them.
When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in fifteen- seventeen, he may not have realized the full significance of what he was doing, but four hundred years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas. And Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.
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I don't think the statement was about any particular person who is a member of any particular faith, it was about the teachings of the faith itself. Whether or not you follow those teachings does not disprove the poster's statement.
Obvious free market solution (Score:2, Insightful)
Obvious solution: Raise the price of water.
Higher prices will incentivize consumers to conserve, producers to produce, and distributers to fix the leaks in their pipes.
Re:Obvious free market solution (Score:5, Informative)
Ah, sadly not. People either pay nothing for water (they steal it) or they already pay a fortune to the "tanker mafia".
http://www.circleofblue.org/20... [circleofblue.org]
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In other words, the situation is completely screwed up and getting worse. Well, looks like we will get to watch a historic event live here.
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It must either be really easy to steal or all those people moving in must have plenty of money. The article mentions 4.5% population increase. If water was not affordable (or easy to steel for free) then there would be no incentives for new people to move in, and there should be people looking for a way out.
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The silly argument again.
How high do you want to rise the prices?
How are you dealing with the riots?
The only way is rationing. And then education. And in the end price changes.
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Rationing will deal with current shortages.
And its the only way to deal with the long term psychological problems that causes shortages: Because otherwise you could end up with a social class that will ignore the shortages because they can pay for the embargoed mafiapriced water. In some cases it can be the entire of society.
But only policy changes to infrastructure, and what happens around the waterways will impact future shortages.
Desalination, what is happening around the rivers that supply the water, gr
Leave or deal with it (Score:3)
In the end, they can leave or deal with water scarcity. It sounds like things aren't bad enough for people to leave and improvements are impossible, so deal with it they will.
Re: Leave or deal with it (Score:2)
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Or build desalinization plants.
Patching leaky pipes is WAY more cost effective than building energy-hungry desalination plants.
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Or build desalinization plants.
Patching leaky pipes is WAY more cost effective than building energy-hungry desalination plants.
In all likelihood if their population is growing at 4.5% every year; they need to do both!
Re: Leave or deal with it (Score:4, Insightful)
They've been relining the water mains here to limit leaks and pipe failures. It's been going on across the city for several years now, and this is a really well managed, self-funded (ie, water fees pay for the water system) water system that's mostly newer than 120 years (good chunks maybe less than 75 years old), run by a more or less functional city government.
Can you imagine what Karachi's water plant is like? I'll bet just creating documentation as to where the pipes are would be a decade-long odyssey and it probably wouldn't uncover miles of unauthorized extensions and tapping into the system.
Fixing the leaks is a good idea, but I'd bet in Karachi building a desal plant is probably actually more cost effective compared to detangling the mess they have.
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How much do you have to lose?
Doesn't sound like you have much of a clue. The worse the pipes, the _lower_ the cost will be for initial improvements. Granting, the finding the later, smaller leaks will suck.
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Or build desalinization plants.
I've occasionally wondered, what do they do with all the salt they recover? Sodium bullets and chlorine gas?
Re: Leave or deal with it (Score:4, Informative)
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Of course in other parts of the world they do the opposite, and extract the salt and throw the fresh water back into the ocean. Salt is still a valuable commodity as well.
What seems far less common is a plant that does both desalination, and salt production, which you would think would be a natural fit.
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In the end, they can leave or deal with water scarcity. It sounds like things aren't bad enough for people to leave and improvements are impossible, so deal with it they will.
I know. Life can be tough in the country. I suggest they all move to a big city where they have these luxuries ... WCPGW
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I think they took your advice and chose Manchester.
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The only real chance they have is to stop population growth. But it looks like they are incapable of even thinking that.
Climate Change? (Score:4, Informative)
Pretty sure the order of causes are corruption and water mismanagement followed by climate change being the crack that drained their fresh water supply.
Re:Climate Change? (Score:5, Insightful)
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A far better story: (Score:5, Informative)
Quotes:
Perween Rehman: "It is not the poor who steal the water. It is stolen by a group of people who have the full support of the government agencies, the local councillors, mayors and the police; all are involved."
"Shortly before her murder, Rehman spoke to a documentary crew, who were making a film about her work."
More:
"The scale of the theft is staggering.
"Ali Asghar, 75, says he still has to pay bills to the utility company for water that never comes in the pipes."
Another problem:
Family size.
"... Farzana Bibi, 40,
"... his entire household of 17 people is dependent on water bought from tankers."
Al Jazeera is generally a good place for such news. However, this story has no date. It was apparently written in 2017.
So, the parent comment is exactly correct.
Re: A far better story: (Score:2)
I didn't say Al Jazeera is perfect. (Score:3)
However, if, like me, you live in the U.S. and have never been to the countries Al Jazeera covers most, the articles are often far ahead of others on the same subject.
You said, "They covered a ceremony in my hometown and claimed eight people died. No one died."
Could you tell us more about that?
Exceeded carrying capacity (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Exceeded carrying capacity (Score:4, Insightful)
Harsh as it sounds, getting population growth under control and eventually down to zero is a critical step for survival of a nation today. Looks like Pakistan will be one of those that do not make it. Even if they can fix the water issue this time, if they continue to grow like crazy, the problem will just return far worse in the near future until it cannot be fixed anymore.
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Capitalist economies require exponential growth to be sustainable. No economics types seem to want to compare this to the effect of exponential growth on biosystems.
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Yeah, funny that. Sure, the growth rates seem low, like 2% or 5% or so, but exponential is exponential and reliably kills a biological population in the end.
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2018 folks, the year casual fascism was no longer met with instant derision.
[ Note: Not the emigration bit, that's something for each country to legitimately decide for themselves who and how many people immigrate. I was referring to the praise for a clearly fascist intrusion on a core element of personal freedom by an obviously fascist government. A "great success"! ]
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If South/West Asia, the Mid East and Africa can't figure it out themselves, we're not going to bail them out by taking millions of their excess people.
Except that we literally are. And anyone who objects "is" a fascist, racist, etc. ...
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Pakistan's population is also stabilizing. The fertility rate is currently 2.62 [cia.gov] and replacement is probably about 2.4.
In fact, the only places with exploding fertility these days are sub-Saharan Africa, and a handful of other countries like Afghanistan and Yemen. You should check the fertility statistics, a lot has changed since 20 years ago.
Population growth is just momentum, actually (Score:5, Interesting)
The number of children per woman in Pakistan has decreased rapidly in the last decades to now around 3 children per woman (2.3 is required for population to just be static in the long run). The only reason the population still grows is many children growing up and having (on average 2-3) kids of their own. There is no statistic link between religion and population growth.
See here: https://www.google.com/publicd... [google.com]
Or if you do only trust the US, check the CIA:
https://www.cia.gov/library/pu... [cia.gov]
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Wrong interpretation! World population growth is heavily influenced by the growth of Muslim population. One should rather compare the rate of population growth of Muslims vs that of non-Muslims.
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I was skeptical, but the Pew center corroborates [pewforum.org] your claim for the period from 2010-2015.
Re:Population growth is just momentum, actually (Score:4, Interesting)
My original source is this highly recommended and entertaining Ted Talk youtube video from Hans Gosling - "Religions and Babies".
https://www.google.com/url?sa=... [google.com]
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Religions arise from third world conditions and terribad education. It reflects the requirements to keep third world economics running - unbridled population expansion (a happy side effect being the self perpetuation of the religion that esposes it), and continued large scale ignorance.
Re: Population growth is just momentum, actually (Score:2)
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Hinduism and Buddhism both have multiple interpretations - but largely both do not prohibit contraception. Large families are not encouraged directly by religious texts, or "experts" - seers, Gurus, monks.
If religious types in India and Nepal are starting to encourage large families for Hindus - it is largely due to their Muslim phobia. To avoid having a larger proportion of Muslims, and hence Muslim voters, Hindus are urged to have larger families. They say so explicitly, very nearly always when encouragin
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Actually, the highest birthrates nowadays are in sub-Saharan countries, which are mostly Christian not Muslim. In most Muslim countries, birthrates are relatively low. In 2 of the 3 largest Muslim countries (Indonesia and Bangladesh), they are already below replacement.
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We need to maintain the stalemate. The bad outcome of that war is either side winning.
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Wouldn’t that be 2 children per women for stable population? I have never understood the 2.3 or any number higher than 2 except to account for more males being norn.
Even if you don’t count female children as “women”, that would imply a huge childhood mortality rate if 11% of children do not make it to adulthood (breeding age).
In fact, I would think the number would actaully be less than 2 since not all females in any given population have finished having children.
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The number of children per woman is more properly the number of children per woman of child-bearing age. Therefore a number higher than 2 is to account for children who do not reach the age to have more children.
If you were to define it instead as children per female born, then yes, 2 would be the magic number (plus or minus the number required to adjust for different birth rates between the genders)
Additional adjustments may be needed to account for immigration/emigration if you are talking stable populati
Re: Population growth is just momentum, actually (Score:2)
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same with Cape Town South Africa (Score:2, Insightful)
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And they all have one thing in common. Political sources of the problem.
Any time you have a massive increase in population, and no increase in water source, you're going to have a shortage. This is simple economics, not climate science.
Re: same with Cape Town South Africa (Score:3)
Nobody is going to "run out of water" (Score:2)
Some will just have to pay more for it.
Desalination! (Score:3)
They need to use Desalination
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As far as I know, desalination have never been a viable option. It is too slow and use too much energy compared to the result output.
"The energy requirements are so high that the cost for a lot of countries is too much.That’s why it’s mainly used in regions lacking freshwater, ships, and military vessels.
There are environmental concerns too. Desalination plants take in salt water straight from the ocean and can kill or harm fish and other small ocean life as water travels from the source to the
Because it is expensive (Score:2)
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And why not present figures in metric values so that people in the rest of the world would be able to understand how big the issue is?
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If you want to understand how big the issue is, then "they only get half the water the need" is a good description.
1.1 billion gallons, or 4.2 million cubic meter are equally useless for proper visualization.
Re: Pakistan == Mud People (Score:5, Funny)
Yes but is it half the water they need in gallons? We Americans don't understand metric fractions.
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Yes but is it half the water they need in gallons? We Americans don't understand metric fractions.
No, the superiors only understand litres, and metricand once you don't use those, you are incapable of using antything else, and must resort to moaning and crying.
And your vaunted metric system is just as arbitrary at base as anything else. Otherwise, did you know this well thopught out and flalwees metric system, th emetre is exactly 1/299792458 of the distance that light travels in a second.
So no need to run around brandishing the big metric cock like it is the end all and be all of measurements.
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Yes but is it half the water they need in gallons? We Americans don't understand metric fractions.
No, the superiors only understand litres, and metricand once you don't use those, you are incapable of using antything else, and must resort to moaning and crying.
And your vaunted metric system is just as arbitrary at base as anything else. Otherwise, did you know this well thopught out and flalwees metric system, th emetre is exactly 1/299792458 of the distance that light travels in a second.
So no need to run around brandishing the big metric cock like it is the end all and be all of measurements.
I mean, unless it is the length that light travels in a vacuum in 1/299792458 of a second - then you have bragging rights.
The Gallon is a standard for the USA and for it's territories. But if the USA wants to export products to the world, or manufacture cars, or airplanes or any critical equipment such as space ships for example, it is definitely not American measure. Neither is the weather tracked in around the World in American Standard. The world's standard applies and so America is once again not great. The non American world standard is the metric system.
I understand that American congressmen and educators felt that it
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The Gallon is a standard for the USA and for it's territories. But if the USA wants to export products to the world, or manufacture cars, or airplanes or any critical equipment such as space ships for example, it is definitely not American measure. Neither is the weather tracked in around the World in American Standard. The world's standard applies and so America is once again not great. The non American world standard is the metric system.
I understand that American congressmen and educators felt that it is too difficult to teach the metric system, or to increase the size of a football field from 100 yards to 100 meters.
You have the citations that it is considered too difficult? I learned the metric system in High School in the late 60's and I lived in a town that refused to teach evolution - we were that backward.
At my desk, I have some containers of stuff. Let's take a look.........
Equate Hand lotion - net weight 14 Oz, then 397 grams
Polar Seltzer Water 12 fl Oz then 355 ml
Palmers Cocoa Butter skin cream 250 ml then8.5 fl oz
Armor All Air Freshening plastic protectant 1 Pt (16 Fl Oz ) then 473 ml
Friskies Cat trea
still alive (Score:3)
Actually imperial units are still in widespread usage here even within engineering groups. My company uses metric for softwaee, but physical stuff like structures or antennas gets done in foot pounds and the like. I am a proponent of switching, but they tried that 40 years ago and the only thing that stuck was liters on bottles of diabetes, er soda.
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The thing is 95% of the world use something better.
And we do too. We just don't take a hissy fit if someone says something else.But it is fun to troll ya.
Now to really piss y off, I have a socket set ....... in Whitworth. It's from back in the day I worked on vintage british motorcycles.
They already know what big numbers are in that system. They have to convert it from your silly system to understand and compare it to what they already know.
And? So what? We convert measurements all the. time. decimals, fractions, percentages, standard, metric, that old school whitworth.
I have a metric Mill and lathe that has no problem to make fractional standard measurement parts on. I've even made the occasional part tha
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Interesting, but totally irrelevant. I really couldn't give 2 shits what measurement system you use, or 5/8ths of a shit, or however you measure them. I'm sure you have your reasons. The point is it was originally in metric, but dumbed down for Americans to understand.
Oh bullshit. And quit being such a quasi-racist Euro-bigot. It is so ridiculously easy to be proficient in multiple measuring systems at the same time, you really have no right at all to claim that the article was dumbed down for the 'Murricans. Because anyone who can pull off that ridiculously minor feat of thinking isn't going to complain. The metric system is but one system that we use. We use it every day. Along with any other system we need to use. Which pretty much puts the lie to your whole premis
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Explain why it was dumbed down for Americans.
How can I explain something that isn't true? I just got finished with replying to another person and went down a list of just things in my office. Everything but one had both standard and metric volume or weight on it. We work in both. Is there some sort of block you are having with this truth? My vehicle is almost totally metric - for some reason Spark plugs and wheel lug nuts are in standard. I don't know where you live, but I'd invite you over to 'Murrica to see that we indeed use both systems, and eve
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Acre-feet for the win.
Re:Pakistan == Mud People (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: Pakistan == Mud People (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is in units of people. 10 million too many. Good luck trying to save the planet by banning plastic grocery bags while the third world is breeding like locust.
Re: Pakistan == Mud People (Score:2)
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Actually, large cities generally use less resources per person than small cities or rural areas.
And Pakistan has an average of 2.62 kids per family [cia.gov] which is hardly "breeding like locusts". Replacement fertility is probably about 2.4 in Pakistan, so they are barely over replacement.
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And why not present figures in metric values so that people in the rest of the world would be able to understand how big the issue is?
Now I understand. A litre is .946 quart, A gallon is around 3.8 litres, and the rest of the world is supposed to be so much smarter than us, but can't do the really simple math involved. For a not very specific number like this, just multiply the gallons by 4 and you are in the ballpark. You only know 1 method, and can't use anything else at all. I can do several, and gallons to litres is among the simplest that a child can do.
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Except that youâ(TM)re using those feeble US quarts that are smaller than the genuine, original, accept no substitutes Imperial quarts, which weigh in at 80oz. Bet you didnâ(TM)t know about them.
Bah, I prefer the biblical units of measure, as they come direct from Gawd.
Re: Allah be praised! (Score:2)
Although it's just as hard to generalize about Muslims as it is Christians, you are projecting a kind of thinking onto Islam that would be regarded as heterodox,
Most if not all orthodox schools of Muslim thought don't believe good or bad luck have anything to do with reward and punishment. In fact they view such beliefs as superstitious. Actual reward and punishment are only meted out on the Day of Judgment.
Orthodox Muslims believe God wills good or bad things to people as a test of character. If Karachi