Now Fighting for Top Tech Talent: Makers of Turbines, Tools and Toyotas (wsj.com) 124
The tussle over technology talent is reaching far beyond Silicon Valley. From a report: Firms from industrial giants to car makers are rethinking the way they recruit as they compete with each other and traditional technology outfits for people with expertise in high-tech fields like machine learning, artificial intelligence and cybersecurity. For some positions that Siemens AG needs to fill, there may be a universe of fewer than 2,000 qualified people in the U.S., said Michael Brown, vice president of talent acquisition in the Americas for the German industrial conglomerate that makes everything from gas turbines to mammography machines. "The question is how many of those are looking for a job?" Mr. Brown said. Finding the right potential candidates on sites like LinkedIn isn't easy because "they're tired of being found."
Siemens has 377,000 employees world-wide and about 50,000 in the U.S. At the moment, it has about 1,500 open jobs across America, most of which require some software or science-related background. Employers are handicapped by several factors, data show and recruiters say: Cutting-edge skills are evolving faster than universities can train people, the supply of talented young workers entering these fields isn't satisfying the huge demand for them, and mobility -- a worker's willingness to uproot their life for a job in a new place -- has declined. The odds of luring rare, coveted candidates away from their current job or city are long, Mr. Brown said.
Siemens has 377,000 employees world-wide and about 50,000 in the U.S. At the moment, it has about 1,500 open jobs across America, most of which require some software or science-related background. Employers are handicapped by several factors, data show and recruiters say: Cutting-edge skills are evolving faster than universities can train people, the supply of talented young workers entering these fields isn't satisfying the huge demand for them, and mobility -- a worker's willingness to uproot their life for a job in a new place -- has declined. The odds of luring rare, coveted candidates away from their current job or city are long, Mr. Brown said.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Same goes for the companies in the health care industry. If you want what they have you should have something to trade for it.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Really? Hope you never have to deal with healthcare. Then tell me if corporations can't take away your life.
They can decline to pay for treatment of an illness or injury, if it's not covered by your insurance. (Or even if it is, if they're dishonest or incompetent.)
But it's the illness or injury that will take away your life. Obviously. If the insurer were to magically disappear, you wouldn't suddenly get better.
Whereas, if the cop who was choking you to death for selling untaxed cigarettes were to magically disappear (or a passing Good Samaritan were to apply a 2x4 to the cop's head with an appropriate degr
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah. Cry me a river.
Seimens is one of many that have no clue about how to recruit. These guys would go into a bar and strike out every time, and with good reason.
It's not necessarily about the money, or the locale, but to geeks, it's the challenge. Yeah, you need to eat, but geek entrepreneurs need a challenge, and a good one. You only get to make a few chances at making a mark in this life. Cubicles in Frankfort ain't it.
Re: (Score:2)
We all bargain for what is on our own best interest. We cannot fault a Company for trying to bargain for something that is better for them.
However the problem is the Voice of a Company is a lot louder to policy makers then it is for the individual. Which is against the ideals that the United States was founded on.
You can create a company make it large and brings you in a lot of money so you and your family can live in luxury. However the political system has loopholes which in essence has created a positio
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Ditto. But then again, I won't uproot from Toronto which seems to have a ton of tech workers but few of the big corporations.
Re: (Score:3)
Perhaps you need to look harder, or perhaps you may need to lower your standards for your expectation on what type of job you are qualified to do.
A lot of the time, tech workers will not look for work in a grimy manufacturing plant, or in healthcare... Just because you are not working with world changing technologies, or making the next big thing, but tweaking, and tinkering wit existing systems. The work can be challenging, and you are working with the newest and coolest stuff. However you can't point t
Re: (Score:2)
"Perhaps you need to look harder"
Perhaps YOU need to stop assuming you are the smartest person in the thread.
I was unemployed for a year and a half. I would apply to anything slightly relevant in the US or Canada, things in the UK or Ireland if I though I could explain why I was relevant, and things on continental Europe if they were the kind of place where they did their business in English and they didn't specify that the applicant already be in the EU. I would apply for experience down to 0 years if they
Re: (Score:1)
I've heard for years... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Our tool and die vendor queue times are running 8-10 months now. This means they want you to give them a purchase order commitment and they won't even think about starting work for ~9 months.
No that means there's such a shortage of skilled machinists that unless it's a high-priority replacement, you get in line like everyone else. Useful tip: The wait time for industrial transformers used in heavy industry is around 1.5 years. The big transformers that you see at a step down station is 2-4 years. Machinists have been a high demand trade for years, along with welders with navsea, boiler and plate(high pressure), medical gas and aerospace. Problem is you've got two generations of kids that we
Re: (Score:3)
Problem is you've got two generations of kids that were told they didn't need to go into trades, an education system that told them they didn't need to go into trades. An elitist establishment in education that looked down on blue collar workers, attacked trades, and pushed that your only path forward was through university. And then, you've got the various government bodies that were stacked full of those elitists saying you don't need to go into trades, that office jobs are for everyone.
And the degree-toting engineers coming out of those institutions are so clueless -- most of them never built anything more involved than LEGO -- most of them can't design a moderately complex part that's both manufacturable and assemblable. They've had no lab time, no shop time. It takes a ton of on-the-job experience to get them the basics that previous generations started college with, because previous generations built things and fixed things and generally saw building and fixing things as worthwhile pur
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
That is so very true. I am a forty something retired Air Force aircraft mechanic that went back to school for a Mechanical Engineering degree for shits and grins. There are maybe 10-20 guys in my senior class that can crank out what I would call quality work. When ever we do a project the first thing I generally have to do is check to see if they know how to us
Re: (Score:2)
anyone need a jack of all trades aircraft avionics technician/pilot, entry level Mechanical Engineer with skills in basic programing/automation, 3D design/printing, computer network admin, basic welding, automotive repair...
Become a government contractor (perhaps for Xe/Academi): See the world, fix broken shit, help kill people...?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I will be graduating this fall, anyone need a jack of all trades aircraft avionics technician/pilot, entry level Mechanical Engineer with skills in basic programing/automation, 3D design/printing, computer network admin, basic welding, automotive repair, wood working, photography, etc, etc?
Can't offer you a job, but I can point you in 3 directions. Aircraft mechanic for civilian airlines, everything you've got now including previous mil background will get you in the door quick. Pick up your welding cert and toss in heavy plate/boiler, and work for a railway. This coupled with ME/programming/automation/admin will get you a cushy job at a railway depot where automation of trains and car coupling is becoming the norm. 3rd is picking up your electrician cert, then getting industrial cert and
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is that trades can go for years without any work, have huge barriers to entry, and you can make millions overnight in software. Why risk life and limb every day, spending half the day driving to jobs for free, when you can sit in an air conditioned office with free coffee watching your options go up?
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is that trades can go for years without any work, have huge barriers to entry, and you can make millions overnight in software. Why risk life and limb every day, spending half the day driving to jobs for free, when you can sit in an air conditioned office with free coffee watching your options go up?
Really, it hasn't been like that for nearly 30 years at this point. Even when the housing bubble popped, electricians, and plumbers were in a glut situation, most simply went out and expanded their available skills and were back to work very quickly. The reality is, those 'office jobs' you're talking about are also finite, ask anyone who's in IT and had their job outsourced to India for example. That one's been going on hard for the last 15 years hasn't it.
The Problem (Score:5, Insightful)
"The supply of talented young workers entering these fields isn't satisfying the huge demand for them"
"Facebook, Amazon, and Hundreds of Companies Post Targeted Job Ads That Screen Out Older Workers "
Need I say more?
Re: (Score:3)
Maybe if we nationalize health insurance, with industry footing some of the bill, we could start utilizing some of the older tech talent (like me, who can run circles around these young whippersnappers) without fear of going bankrupt when they get cancer.
Just a thought.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Public expenditure per capita for healthcare in the US, with its notionally private insurance system, is already more than total expenditure per capita for healthcare for most European nations except the UK. If the US moved to system like there's it would be a tax cut.
Re: (Score:2)
I spent 20 years in the Air Force under a public/socialist health care system. It worked ok at times (dental was pretty good) other times it was pretty fucked up and useless (pretty much everything not dental).
Now that I retired from the AF and am back in the really, real world guess how different my health care is. The only difference is I have slightly more choice where I get to go, otherwise it is not much
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, wages have been flat, that needs to be said.
In a capitalist system there are never any true shortages, you just have pay what the market demands.
You can't simultaneously gripe about lack of talented candidates while only raising wages 1-2% annually in complete lock step with your competition. If these people are vital for the company to survive they should be paid whatever is needed. After all, that is the argument for inflated CEO pay.
Re: (Score:2)
Or you can find competent candidates, train them, and give them a work environment and/or pay sufficient to keep them with you. And suck it up when you hit a brief downturn and hold off on your layoffs so you don't give them a reason to go work for your competition.
Thinking everyone has the skills because someone else trained them doesn't work. Not paying enough to someone who has the skills when very few others don't (see first issue) doesn't work.
If you want to lowball your pay and benefits, train the ski
Old trick, new dog (Score:3)
Assuming that this is really true and not just another attempt to justify bringing in cheap, exploitable, incompetent, foreign labor it sounds like they should train workers for these jobs.
They could either pool resources and form a school/cert and share graduates or do this in house.
Something like this is being done now by Swiss luxury watch makers to train talent to do repairs and maintenance.
Re: (Score:1)
If this is true, there isn't the capacity to train them at universities.
Re: (Score:1)
There were examples of this kind of thing at universities in the US.
Chrystler used to have a partnership with schools where they would pay for a 2 year degree and for tools and the budding mechanic would work for them for a certain amount of time after graduation.
In general though US universities do not seem to do this well.
They are often expensive and have no interest in this.
They can be this way since they can fill a seat with a subsidized foreign national.
Re: (Score:2)
The point is: Technology is moving too fast for university training to keep up. People need to continually re-train. People that do that already have jobs.
Pointing out that 400 year old technology (mechanical watches) is 'trainable', isn't on point. If they found low residue oils that broke up the Rolex maintenance gravy train, they wouldn't use it.
Re:Old trick, new dog (Score:4, Interesting)
Your point is correct, but I would suggest the underlying problem is that companies are unwilling to figure out how to train up people to these jobs. In the short term, it is quite expensive to train up 5 people when there is a good chance 3 will be poached. But not having key necessary skills can potentially be even more expensive.
Re: (Score:3)
On the other hand, technophiles that just naturally continually retrain can write their own ticket.
Some employers are blinded by need of formal training or certs. Hence cert monkeys...
Re: (Score:2)
It's been a while. But I deal with recent college grads _all_the_time_.
The good ones understand theory (that they got in college), have practical knowledge they kept up with since _before_ college.
The really bad ones, tried to learn practicals in 'college'. Their skills will be obsolete in no time, if they aren't obsolete already. With no depth of understanding, they will be lost.
It's still true that in 4 years, you can learn a good slice of theory, or you can learn a good slice of rapidly expiring p
Re: (Score:2)
Recruitment is the failure (Score:2)
The requirement for people with 10 years experience of a concept that is only 5 years old is a problem. Racism, ageism and sexism are problems.
Most present systems are over-reliant on buzzword matching, which might work better if everyone agreed what the buzzwords were, and what they meant.
It is not much use attracting people to your job if you then reject them due to inability to e
Re: (Score:2)
Additionally while AI for example is quite old, it's been recent advances in AI that have really put it back on the map. The broad study course I took 20 years ago probably isn't going to qualify me for these things without substantial study. Access to education & retraining for people in technical fields that are either outdated or offshored is expensive and hard to obtain. It might not be hard to take a person with a graduate degree in computer science from one field and retrain him to do AI for examp
Re: (Score:2)
it's been recent advances in AI that have really put it back on the map
Not really. When I got into the field, I picked up a set of The Handbook of Artificial Intelligence (by Cohen and Feigenbaum, copyright 1982). I recognize many of the cutting edge AI technologies as originally described by these books. Even though they have been re-labeled with a new set of buzzwords. What has advanced is the hardware. Where a mainframe or minicomputer would have taken many minutes to arrive at a solution, the same algorithms run on my phone in milliseconds.
Re: (Score:2)
I disagree. I was hired six months ago by Siemens (in Germany) and have yet to meet somebody from HR. Sent my CV because of a job posting which went straight to the technical manager who posted the job offer; went on the interview and was given an answer right away. I was called on the phone a few times afterwards by HR (always the same person) after the interview to get updates on when they were sending me a contract; it came a few weeks after the interview. I quit my old job (30 day notice) and started th
Re: (Score:2)
Siemens is a company that very much values expertise.
This. The parent poster was describing more of an experience with American companies. And it's not just in hiring individuals. In my area of expertise, it's difficult to find an engineering firm that hasn't been scooped up by Thales or Schneider Electric.
Re: (Score:2)
At many jobs in Germany, you can be liable to your former employer if you quit outside a scheduled window (often every 6 months) in your employment contract. Same is true for them firing you.
Which is a partial explanation for why it's so hard to GET a job in Germany.
Germany has good unions and apprenticeship systems (Score:2)
Germany has good unions and apprenticeship systems that gives people realy skills not 2-4 years of pure classroom.
Re: (Score:2)
Its actually much worse than that now (at least in IT). I've recently been casually looking for work, made the mistake of posting a CV on a couple of the usual sites, and am now bombarded with emails/texts/phone calls entirely from Indian offshore boilerrooms. Some of the voicemails are laughably tragic: the din of background noise from an Indian call center, and the caller's accent so thick I can't understand a word of it. I'd be surprised if any self respecting candidate - qualified or not - would tolera
Siemans (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Maybe true for the US. In Germany HQ is located in Munique, one of the most expensive areas in Germany. A lot of research is done in a much smaller town called Erlangen, which recently ranked 4th in salaries paid in german cities and is very expensive to live in or buy property. I know because I live there.
It's a bubble, and it won't be long until it pops (Score:5, Insightful)
We're in a ridiculous bubble market right now. Some examples: at our company we're struggling to hire, more than we ever have, and new people are leaving 2 days in because they got a position somewhere else. Yep, it's great for employees, but please realize we're talking completely unskilled employees here. I've talked with people from other places and it seems to be similar everywhere. Also on the skilled side, I just went hunting for a plumber to sell me a new water heater for my house, and one plumber I used before just ignored my request, and then another one gave me a quote and then isn't getting back to me, even though I'm eager to get the job done and pay him. He claims they're very busy. Where my wife works they'd announced they want to increase the size of her department but they've had several unfilled positions for over a year and can't fill them.
This is what happens when the economy starts doing well - it goes into an uncontrolled upward spiral. That's why the government is increasing interest rates, to try to keep inflation from growing. What happens is, since everyone's eager to hire and buy stuff to fulfill demand, they're all willing to pay more and that's why inflation grows quickly. In reality there's not much flexibility in labour so once we get the unemployment rate down low, inflation starts to rise.
Unfortunately efficiency starts to drop. Training new people who are job hopping costs a lot more. Also, companies start to put off routine maintenance because they don't have enough maintenance people and there's a big push to produce more product to fulfill the demand. New capacity can't be brought online this fast because it requires large capital investment, and labour is already scarce.
On the radio I'm starting to hear a lot more advertisements for big loans "even if you have poor credit" and lots more ads for cheque cashing and payday loans. The wording is reminiscent of the ads that were on the radio leading up to the 2008 crash (at that time they were pushing interest-only mortgages). Giving people with bad credit more access to credit is a big red flag. You're dumping more demand into the marketplace (those people immediately spend that money), but the risks of default go way up.
It's also been a relatively long time since the last recession - longer than usual anyway. We're due.
I can't tell you when this is going to burst, but we've been through times like this before and they generally don't last very long. I suggest saving what you can now while times are good, because jobs are likely going to be scarce a few years from now. If you're looking for a job, find one at a company that's been around for a few economic cycles. Then hang on tight.
Re: (Score:2)
They're selling bags of dry dog food on the internet again.
I thought that was a sure sign of impending pop, but it's been over a year.
Re: (Score:2)
Do it right?
You mean ship it to local retailers by the truck/train load?
The price of _local_ ground shipping exceeds the price of dry dog food by a substantial margin. Try and get local delivery of a bag of dog food from a grocery that delivers. The delivery charge (possibly obfuscated) will exceed the price of the dog food, if they will even deliver that low a price order, at all.
Chewy.com is losing money on every bag, running on VC money, same as pets.com was.
Re: (Score:1)
The delivery charge (possibly obfuscated) will exceed the price of the dog food, if they will even deliver that low a price order, at all.
The delivery charge (service fee and driver's tip) by Safeway via InstaCart is 10% of the bill. If I order $100 in groceries, the delivery charge is $10. The "heaviest" delivery I had was three cases of bottled water, eight bottles of soda and four bag of groceries. While they don't offer anything in 25-lb bags, they do have plenty of specials on pet food.
Re: (Score:2)
Minimum delivery amount?
I suspect they _won't_ deliver a six pack of beer for $0.60 or a 40 lb bag of dog food for $2.
Also note: Safeway pricing, aka obfuscated delivery charge.
Re: (Score:2)
Bubbles are rarely economy wide.
The SI valley job market is certainly hot.
Gosh (Score:3)
Gosh, that sounds like a problem. Whatever shall we do?
Wait! I know! Maybe we could just import more cheap ... er, I mean, invite talented folks from abroad!
(What's that Bob? Yes, that's right; we don't want our job postings showing to anyone over 35.)
Anyway, where was I? Yes, woe is us! Just no domestic workers out there :(
Re: (Score:2)
College isn't job/software training. The theory I learned decades ago is _still_ not obsolete.
Re: (Score:1)
College isn't job/software training. The theory I learned decades ago is _still_ not obsolete.
I'm not sure where people get this idea? That's my major complaint about software graduates - they don't know the theory at all, nor any useful basics. Just Java(Script) syntax and how to make a 10MB web page.
drop must have an degree and Taleo! (Score:2)
drop must have an degree and Taleo!
Also better recruiting I deal with some that just seem to like to say we have a big list of names but seem very clueless about the job or even where the job is.
kill H1B (Score:3)
Secondly, we need to restore our education system that we had before Clinton/W got ahold of it. Not everybody is cut out for college. Look at CHina/Europe/Japan. In America, we require nearly all students to take our tests such as GRE, ACT, SAT, etc. Elsewhere, by soph year, they have weeded out those that will go to college and those that will not. The ones not going will follow down a blue-collar path and learn various trades. We need to do the same here. there is nothing wrong with learning a trade, esp. when we need them.
Third, we really should do more teaching of the trades in the military. In particular, right now, in the last 6 months before getting out, have them return stateside, take up classes and do work on the base.
Re: (Score:2)
IIRC all naturalized citizens in the US have to give up their original citizenships. IIRC there is an exception for Israel, but that might be another legality (Jewish people can become Israeli citizens without giving up their original citizenship).
Most dual citizenship people in the USA get their American citizenship from birth and their alternative citizenship from their parents nationality.
Dual American/German citizen...Speaks lousy German.
Re: (Score:2)
Part of American naturalization is swearing off old loyalties, which typically requires giving up original citizenship.
Canada is the 51st state, so...
Re: (Score:2)
Secondly, we need to restore our education system that we had before Clinton/W got ahold of it. Not everybody is cut out for college. Look at CHina/Europe/Japan. In America, we require nearly all students to take our tests such as GRE, ACT, SAT, etc. Elsewhere, by soph year, they have weeded out those that will go to college and those that will not. The ones not going will follow down a blue-collar path and learn various trades. We need to do the same here. there is nothing wrong with learning a trade, esp. when we need them.
But if these students do not accumulate crippling educational debt, our system of debt peonage will collapse.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Nope, it wouldn't make a difference, it wouldn't increase the number of engineers, it would just mean the same number making double the pay.
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is a shortage of workers willing to work for starvation wages.
I don't know... my company pays pretty damned well, doesn't care a bit about age, gender or any other thing if you can do the work, and we're having a heck of a time trying to fill positions. For going on three years my team has had an open authorization to hire anyone we can find, regardless of officially-allocated headcount, and we simply can't find people. I don't think the problem is that we're not offering enough money, because it's extremely rare that someone rejects our offer. We just can't find peo
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I still stand my argument that if your business offers enough money (and stability), you'll eventually have more than enough recruits. My suspicion is that your HR department is what's fscking you over? Is that the case?
Our recruiters do a pretty good job at finding and getting candidates for us, but we want top talent, and only small percentage of candidates do well enough in interviews to get a job offer. They get rejected not by "HR" (which really has no role in recruiting or hiring) but by the engineers who interview them and the committees of engineers who evaluate the interview results.
Re: (Score:2)
When you only hire a percent of the 1% of the best out there your pool is quite limited regardless of salary offered.
That is a great incentive for people to train in the fields affected. There is a critical shortage and they have a 99% chance of not being hired.
It's not a lack of talent (Score:1)
In the modern age... (Score:2)
Why is this even a factor? Very few high tech positions have any need for a worker to ever be physically present... even fewer if you have a few less skilled individuals to function as hands.
Re: (Score:2)
Training (Score:1)
Bad Recruiting Tool. (Score:3)