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Microsoft Businesses United States

Microsoft Could Move Some Jobs Abroad Because of US Immigration Policies, Top Exec Says (cnbc.com) 293

Microsoft does not want to move jobs out of the United States but certain decisions out of Washington could potentially force its hands, the company's President and Chief Legal Officer Brad Smith warned. From a report: The Trump Administration's tough stance on immigration has attracted a lot of criticism from big technology firms, which rely heavily on skilled foreign workers from around the world. Smith previously spoke out against efforts to stop the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program -- an Obama-era policy that provides legal protection for young immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children. Microsoft has advocated the protection of DACA and more broadly supported immigration as a way to make sure U.S. companies are hiring talented people. "We do worry about a couple of the very specific immigration questions that people appear to be debating in Washington," Smith told CNBC's Akiko Fujita in an interview on Wednesday.

[...] "We don't want to move jobs out of the United States and we hope that we don't see decision making in Washington that would force us to do that," he said, adding that Microsoft has been openly speaking to people in Congress, at the White House and even the Canadian government to safeguard the interest of its employees. Microsoft has a development center in Vancouver, which Smith described as a "bit of a safety valve." "We're not going to cut people loose. We're going to stand behind them," he added.

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Microsoft Could Move Some Jobs Abroad Because of US Immigration Policies, Top Exec Says

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  • by cunina ( 986893 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:44AM (#56934280)
    âoeWe want the cheapest workers possible that will endure the most abuse, and if Trump wonâ(TM)t let us have them, weâ(TM)ll go someplace where we can get them. Obama knew to play ball on this, why canâ(TM)t Trump?â
    • It is the wrong kind of immigration policies in US that allow for this "cheapest labor exploitation". Speaking as a Canadian, the work permit here, which is equivalent to H1-B in US is bound to the employer, but the permanent resident status, equivalent to green card is not. So you get here on work permit, apply for permanent resident status couple years later and your employer effectively has no leverage except a just pay and a healthy work environment. Sure it costs 2 years before you can apply, however i

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        US immigration law is horrendous, unjust and uneven. If you come here illegally, you are VIP and every politicians want to shake your hand. If you apply thru proper channel, be prepare to wait 20 years.

      • by lgw ( 121541 )

        You can switch employers on an H1-B. Most lager companies and left-coast start-ups have lawyers to manage just this. The incentive to stay put is that many companies promise to pay for the legal work for your green card submission after some delay (I believe Google uses the lack of a delay as its own hook).

      • It is the wrong kind of immigration policies in US that allow for this "cheapest labor exploitation". Speaking as a Canadian, the work permit here, which is equivalent to H1-B in US is bound to the employer, but the permanent resident status, equivalent to green card is not. So you get here on work permit, apply for permanent resident status couple years later and your employer effectively has no leverage except a just pay and a healthy work environment. Sure it costs 2 years before you can apply, however its not like a decade or so in US at the mercy of your employer.

        You've pretty much perfectly described the system in the US as well. I have no idea what you think is different, except maybe the green card process is a bit longer here.

        • by luis_a_espinal ( 1810296 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:34PM (#56935542)

          It is the wrong kind of immigration policies in US that allow for this "cheapest labor exploitation". Speaking as a Canadian, the work permit here, which is equivalent to H1-B in US is bound to the employer, but the permanent resident status, equivalent to green card is not. So you get here on work permit, apply for permanent resident status couple years later and your employer effectively has no leverage except a just pay and a healthy work environment. Sure it costs 2 years before you can apply, however its not like a decade or so in US at the mercy of your employer.

          You've pretty much perfectly described the system in the US as well. I have no idea what you think is different, except maybe the green card process is a bit longer here.

          No. It's not a bit longer. It's damned atrocious. I know cases of engineers and doctors waiting for 8-10 years for a decision.

          I'm like, why are we doing this? If we have a professional working here for 8-10 years, just give the papers to him/her automatically. That person has obviously shown value.

          And why wait 8-10 years of more? Put a cap, and tell them yes/no within 2-3 years. That way people can plan accordingly instead of living in a damned limbo.

          Our incompetence is turning into cruelty, honestly. This is why I get so pissed at people saying "huurr durr come here the right way" without knowing we are making that all but impossible in the most idiotic, dysfunctional and capricious ways possible.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      It's not even that. To the best of my knowledge, Trump has not altered the H-1B visa in any meaningful way. I've heard the idea floated that visas will be granted to the jobs that pay the highest. If that is true and Microsoft really needs the "best" people who just happen to not exist or be in shortage in the U.S., they still shouldn't have a problem because they have to money to pay up for the "best" talent.

      This is a threat due to Microsoft's opinion on illegal aliens who are great majority unskilled and

      • by dr.g ( 158917 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @12:50PM (#56935154) Homepage Journal

        +1, anticipated my post

        Which was gonna be something along the lines of "Wait. What the fuck does DACA have to do with the H1B program that provides all this foreign "talent"?" Answer: nothing at all. This is clearly political.
        Now...since we know MS has gotten some nice considerations from government, and we can see this as a political attack on Trump, not an explanation of real business concern, WHO is MS paying back? And the answer is, the Dems. Of course, that can't be because "The Narrative"© clearly states that only the Republicans do favors for big companies and get political returns from it. So, more cognitive dissonance, lefties?

        • You're making incorrect assumptions based on a few lines from the summary. Read the full article. He was very clear what policies he was referring to, and they're entirely on topic. Here is the relevant passage.

          "We do worry about a couple of the very specific immigration questions that people appear to be debating in Washington," Smith told CNBC's Akiko Fujita in an interview on Wednesday.

          He pointed to two particular examples. The first is another Obama-era rule that allows some spouses of people who have a non-immigrant H-1B visa to take on paid work. The Trump administration has proposed revoking that type of work authorization last year but a lack of update has left many in limbo, according to reports.

          The second is a rule that allows international graduates in science, technology, engineering or mathematics from U.S. universities to continue working while they're trying to apply for a work visa.

          This isn't a political attack on Trump as you claim. It's legitimate concerns about specific proposed changes that really would affect their ability to hire skilled workers.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 12, 2018 @01:53PM (#56935664)

      Here's the dirty secret at Microsoft that no-ones wants to talk about.

      Diversity policies resulted in the promotion of lots of Indian workers.

      Indian workers, who aren't the slightest bit interested in diversity beyond themselves, promoted other Indians.

      White workers have been all but eliminated in Seattle.

      If you even mention this purge... you are branded a racist.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Do you have evidence to back this up?

        Checking Microsoft's own stats they claim that 56% of their workers are caucasion, which is what I presume you mean when you say "white": https://www.microsoft.com/en-u... [microsoft.com]

        The EEO-1 report is here: https://query.prod.cms.rt.micr... [microsoft.com]

        Of course that is for the whole company, but it would be quite incredible if somehow at their main HQ "white workers have been all but eliminated" and yet all other locations put the overall figure at 56%.

        Unfortunately it's hard to say how many

    • Do you actually have information about this, or are you just making things up? Reviews of Microsoft [glassdoor.com] as a place to work are pretty positive. They have their issues as a company, but abusing their workers isn't one of them. As a rule, large US tech companies treat their engineers well. They may be dysfunctional in a lot of ways, but they pay well, give good benefits, and don't demand insane hours.

      Low skilled workers are another matter. You really don't want to end up filling boxes in one of Amazon's ware

  • Yes... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SharpFang ( 651121 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:44AM (#56934282) Homepage Journal

    "We don't want to move our asses from our comfortable offices, but as we can't continue importing cheap labor, we'll have to follow where that cheap labor used to come from."

    • Re: Yes... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Lol they hire foreigners because they cannot find local talent at any price point. It does not exist in sufficient numbers.

      Have you worked for or applied at Microsoft? It's very hard to get in there - they want top notch folk. They pay very very well. Half if the r&d staff are foreign because that's where the talent is. These are not sweat shop jobs.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      I agree with your statement, as far as it goes.

      All businesses want cheap labour accompanied by excellent skills, be the employment in the tech industry or the service sector.

      Let's step off the silicon valley trolley and enter the space of landscaping.

      We want cheap labour, good work ethics, competency, and reliable attendance.

      Appreciate that the labour force spends their wages on items in proximity to their living quarters.

      That's housing, food, petrol, entertainment, taxes, etc.

      Businesses don't give a flying

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Is it cheap labour or are they trying to hire highly skilled people?

      Because hiring highly skilled people is hard, especially when your immigration system makes it harder. In the UK we are finding that with doctors. Even when they can get a visa they naturally want to bring their families with them, who all also need visas. They also want certainty about the future, so there has to be a solid path to permanent rights to stay in a reasonable timeframe, otherwise why build a life somewhere you might get kicked

    • if they could have outsourced the jobs to someplace cheaper they would have already done it. You can safely ignore these threats. Lack of H1-Bs will never be a reason to lose jobs. The ability to outsource them is. Capital flows to where labor is cheapest (and yes, that's from Marx, he was right about some things ya know).
  • Translation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:45AM (#56934290)

    Politics can do what they want, if we want to hire cheap foreigners we'll hire cheap foreigners. Here or abroad.

    Ya know, while he's at it, couldn't Trump start putting tariffs on software?

    • How would you tariff software? They'd just compile it in a local subsidiary or whatever, physical goods at least have the inconvenience of moving a factory.
  • ...look what you made me do.
    -Microsoft.
  • Feel-good bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PeeAitchPee ( 712652 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:50AM (#56934336)
    Let's see the actual demographic makeup of their devs. Spoiler: it's overwhelming male and white / Asian / Indian like all other big tech firms. This is just a cheap soundbite to placate the SJW crowd with absolutely no substance behind it, and everyone knows it. Besides, I'm confused: doesn't the H1B program that Microsoft et al abuse exist in practice solely to bring (temporary) immigrants into the country (to work as indentured tech servants and save big corps money)? Their statement here about caring about immigrants is 100% trash -- follow their money.
    • Let's see the actual demographic makeup of their devs. Spoiler: it's overwhelming male and white / Asian / Indian like all other big tech firms. This is just a cheap soundbite to placate the SJW crowd with absolutely no substance behind it, and everyone knows it. Besides, I'm confused: doesn't the H1B program that Microsoft et al abuse exist in practice solely to bring (temporary) immigrants into the country (to work as indentured tech servants and save big corps money)? Their statement here about caring about immigrants is 100% trash -- follow their money.

      I personally know a bunch of Iranians who've gone to work for Microsoft (and other big tech firms) and I'm pretty sure it was under HB1, and I know many of them made really nice salaries and now have green cards.

      Now I don't know how typical their story is, but certainly not all use of HB1 is abuse.

  • by rally2xs ( 1093023 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @10:55AM (#56934370)

    ...that wants to hire cheap foreign labor within the USA. They claim they can't get good US help. Well... maybe they can't. If you are about to embark on a career, and are looking at studying for 4 or more years, incurring massive debt, and then having to wait to be hired by businesses that have lowered their wage scale substantially by importing cheap foreign labor that you have to compete with, what are you going to do? Maybe take up law or medicine, if your that smart, because the software industry is now a comparatively low pay industry, and often with insane work hours to boot. These people are smart, and lots of 'em are smarter than lining themselves up to be mediocre middle-classers instead of upper middle-classers is not all that appealing.

    Back before the dot-bomb of the early 2000's, actual Americans were making 6 figures, even in those more valuable year-2000 dollars, because real Americans were doing the work. Then the outsourcing and H1B Visas had their impacts, and news from the software wage front has been pretty dismal. This industry sabotaged itself with complicity by the US gov't working against it's citizens.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Once the USA was totally accepting of workers from other nations every generation?
      Bring the worker over to the USA for a short time project under their own nations brand and use them as posted workers.
      • by rally2xs ( 1093023 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:25AM (#56934576)

        No, I have no memory of that. Up until about the 1990's, US industry was populated pretty much exclusively by US workers. Then, the US gov't made it possible to hire 100's of 1000's of foreigners at the behest of big business that wanted to pay less for their labor, and the destruction of good-paying tech jobs began.

        • by meglon ( 1001833 )
          Your memory doesn't go back far enough. Reagan was the one who started pushing the "service" economy instead of the manufacturing economy.
          • Yeah, I know the service economy, but it was being done with US workers, at least.

            • by Hodr ( 219920 )

              Might be new-ish in white collar jobs. We have been importing migrant labor for farming for as long as we have been a country.

              • Oh, yeah, was talking about tech. I went to school with migrant kids, and that was 50's / 60's. They've been around forever.

        • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          The change was rapid. From doing everything possible in the 1980's to totally protect US secrets and prevent exports to Communist nations.
          The US then just let the world in to study all its secrets.
        • While I agree the program is abused, the program was started due to other countries running similar programs. A study found that the U.S. was suffering a net drain of talented graduates leaving for jobs in these other countries. These work visa programs are basically ways for countries to poach talent from each other, and the U.S. had been on the losing end. So it started its own work visa program.
  • in other words (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Tsolias ( 2813011 ) on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:16AM (#56934496)

    We can't import them, so we export our offices... and because we don't want to seem like we are the bad guys who outsource everything to non-americans, we will blame the goberment.

  • by Kohath ( 38547 )

    More skilled people can live and work near their families and we don't need to agree to import tens of millions of welfare recipients or millions of eager workers to bid down wages. Let's go ahead with that.

  • You want to talk the talk about diversity and racial bias - hire minorities from within your own cities that you're currently located at and TRAIN them.
    No no... better to leave the country because you can't find "good people" here in the US.
    • by Cyberax ( 705495 )
      I work at Amazon. About 30% of my team are direct college hires. Amazon offered them a job straight after graduation.

      All these college hires require mentoring and a huge investment - a college hire is generally not going to produce quality code from the start, but Amazon has to pay them anyway.

      Still, it's very difficult to find engineers. As a result, my team is something like 90% immigrants (from all over the world).
  • Not about "skills" (Score:5, Informative)

    by mi ( 197448 ) <slashdot-2017q4@virtual-estates.net> on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:28AM (#56934604) Homepage Journal

    Smith previously spoke out against efforts to stop the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program

    DACA is not about skilled technology workers at all. The man, quite clearly, is against US enforcing its borders in principle...

  • in the slightest. He talks a big game but never does anything. He could undo the Obama era rule regarding spouses of H1-Bs whenever he wants, instantly adding 100k jobs for Americans (and putting pressure on the H1-Bs to demand higher salaries to afford stay at home spouses). He promised to do it on the campaign trail, so it's not like he's unaware of the issue too.

    Trump runs his businesses with H2-Bs. This is well known. Cutting back on work visas reduces his businesses profitability. Anyone expecting
  • Lots of Indian contractors living 5-6 to an apartment building, just walking distance to Microsoft, hardly any furniture except a TV, they work crazy hours, and send money home.

    M$ has been using cheap visa workers for years, everyone around the Seattle area knows it, sees it.

    Are these the workers M$ will move overseas? Or the flux of middleman project managers they burn through?

  • It's time the US put tariffs on Microsoft products manufactured in China and the EU, and it is time to send H-1B workers home and give those jobs back to Americans.

    https://www.oregonlive.com/sil... [oregonlive.com]
    " Microsoft was moving production to the same place it makes all other Surface products. ... Microsoft has previously said it makes its other Surface computers in China."

    And, it's been going on for a long time:
    https://gizmodo.com/5517137/mi... [gizmodo.com]
    "The conditions—supported by photographic, not just anecdotal evi

  • We are now used to this stance: big corporations take economy as an hostage, and elected leaders must accept their rule.

    But the news is that president Trump may have no problems with having the hostage killed to prevail.

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