LA To Become First In US To Install Subway Body Scanners (apnews.com) 326
Los Angeles officials announced Tuesday that the city's subway will become the first mass transit system in the U.S. to install body scanners that screen passengers for weapons and explosives. "The deployment of the portable scanners, which project waves to do full-body screenings of passengers walking through a station without slowing them down, will happen in the coming months, said Alex Wiggins, who runs the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority's law enforcement division," reports the Associated Press reports: The machines scan for metallic and non-metallic objects on a person's body, can detect suspicious items from 30 feet (9 meters) away and have the capability of scanning more than 2,000 passengers per hour. On Tuesday, Pekoske and other officials demonstrated the new machines, which are being purchased from Thruvision, which is headquartered in the United Kingdom. In addition to the Thruvision scanners, the agency is also planning to purchase other body scanners -- which resemble white television cameras on tripods -- that have the ability to move around and hone in on specific people and angles, Wiggins said. Signs will be posted at stations warning passengers they are subject to body scanner screening. The screening process is voluntary, Wiggins said, but customers who choose not be screened won't be able to ride on the subway.
voluntary (Score:5, Insightful)
"The screening process is voluntary, Wiggins said, but customers who choose not be screened won't be able to ride on the subway."
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Insightful)
Just remember citizen, everything is voluntary, including the state allowing you to keep breathing.
Have a nice day.
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Funny)
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Funny)
No, no, no, it's like taxes. Paying taxes is voluntary, but citizens who choose not to just won't be allowed to reside outside of a prison.
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Good attempt at a Democratic troll. Unfortunately, as usually, you're trying to hide the ugly truth.
It is, after all, the Democrats, not the Republicans, that keep us from adopting a simple flat tax without exemptions. And the Democrats do that because their billionaire donors, doctors, and lawyers like the system the way it is: high taxes for regular employees, lots of loopholes for themselves.
The Republicans control all three branches of government right now. They just passed a big tax bill. And yet, they didn't implement a flat tax when they did so. How does that square with your analysis?
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A flat tax is insanely regressive. What we really need is a VAT on types of goods. You can hide income, you can't hide that Lear jet or Maybach that easily.
Even VAT is regressive, though it may still be a good idea. The wealthy spend a much lower percentage of their income, and thus would have less of it subject to VAT.
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed.
As as bad as the cognitive dissonance of voluntary compliance.
Huh? Is it voluntary or compulsive?
*facepalm*
Re: voluntary (Score:2)
Congratulations! Youâ(TM)ve been chosen to be volunteer.
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I said years ago that if you want to see the future, look at how an airport treats people. It seems to be coming true.
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Insightful)
Ya know, everything under communism was also voluntary.
You could choose not to go to the official liberation day parade to wave the flag with the swastika, sorry the hammer and sickle...you could choose not to go every Saturday to work on digging trenches (that's true, they asked for one day per month voluntary labor for the state.....imagine a surgeon digging a trench and that does to his hands)...you could choose not to enter the Hitler youth, sorry the Komsomol....you could choose not to salute to the portrait of the fürer, sorry the dear leader...you could choose not to participate in the daily five minutes of hatred against the filthy Jews, gipsies, faggots, sorry filthy capitalist and imperialists....you could even choose not to show your papers...so how do you like them labor camps, sorry Gulags, hm?
Fascinating!
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The trick I use to remember is that the Nazis didn't use starvation to kill as often, killed far fewer people and a few right wing nutjobs claim their Holocaust didn't happen whereas the Bolsheviks are beloved by the left 'I've seen the future and it works' and the Holodomor (and Gulag system) are denied by the left or dismissed with 'they didn't do it right' rhetoric.
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Informative)
The Nazis had an actual thought-out plan to use starvation to kill. Usually communists starved people due to incompetence (although not always, for example in Ukraine).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan/ [wikipedia.org]
Re:voluntary (Score:5, Insightful)
This definition of voluntary has bothered me for a long time. We have explicit constitutional rights. I am not even talking about the ones courts like to imagine here. A pretty plain read says we have the right to assemble and we have the right be secure against unreasonable search.
I also thinks its abundantly clear the frames never intended that exercise of one right might require one waive another right. It kind of goes against the definition of right it self. In order to assemble one must be able to go to where the assembly is taking place. As it stands today in America there is essentially no means of transportation where you are subject to "voluntary" search. Even driving your own car you might be stopped at a "random" checkpoint and search. In many cities even walking you could be subjected to "stop and frisk."
When there are no remaining options and I believe we are at the point point search is no longer "voluntary" by any definition. Obviously some types of travel pose risks that demand security and I don't know what all the answers are but if the present situation continues to be viewed as meeting the legal standard - our Constitution might as well be toilet paper.
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"The paying process is voluntary, Wiggins said, but customers who choose not pay won't be able to ride on the subway."
I mean, it's as voluntary as using the subway is in general - isn't that voluntary? I mean, I get why you wouldn't want this security theater to extend to subways, but I've no idea on what grounds you'd say this infringes on your freedom. You're already on camera in subways. This is just a more powerful camera.
Anyhow, the public keeps voting for weaker and weaker public institutions, so you
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Well, let's look at the numbers, shall we? [statista.com]
Percentage of households owning a car:
(1) USA: 88%
(2) Germany: 85%
(3) South Korea: 83%
(4) France: 83%
Household car ownership rates in the US and Germany are almost the same, filling out spots #1 and #2. Why can't we all be as perfect as the Germans? Oh, wait, we are!
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Car ownership is one thing and public transport is another. I have a benefit of living in both countries for extended time and getting around in Germany using public transport is easy, pleasant and safe (at least used to be), I have not heard of public bus or tram robberies or groping (there are some incidents reported in news recently though). In general, if I had to compare:
- ownership of a car in Europe in general is much more expensive then in the US due to taxes
- getting around using public transpor
Re:And that way, you never will. (Score:4, Interesting)
Most Americans couldn't care less about Europe because Europe is of little importance to them or the world. The people who still comment are emigres like myself, and we don't do it because we care about the future of Europe, but because we don't want more bad ideas to spill over from Europe to the US.
People drive in the US because it's fast, cheap, simple, and convenient. Why people drive less in Germany is no great mystery: on average, Germans are poorer and the government deliberate makes it expensive to drive. And the German government subsidizes the kind of transportation that the intellectual and political elite in Germany prefers, which is why public transit is excellent near political power centers and universities.
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Do.... people in Germany really care about how NewYorkers and Midwesterners get to work?
People drive in the US because it's fast, cheap, simple, and convenient.
People also use public transportation because it's... faster, cheaper, simpler, and more convenient. ...In big cities like NY.
Dear god, just PARKING in NY you have to pay out the ass. You're rich or dumb to own a car in a big city. And... I imagine the same is true for backwater Barvaria. Do they have subway systems through-out German farmland?
Europe has a better rail system. Many European cities have better mass transi
Such a sad commentary (Score:3)
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Reminds me of China. They have metal detectors and x-ray scanners for bags.
always more (Score:2)
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You Are Now Entering A Safety Zone. (Score:2)
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Fine I will sew outlines of guns and bombs made alfoil and sue when you touch me, it's inner art and nothing illegal about a alfoil cutout of a handgun and it will be interesting for the corrupt to try to prove it illegal in court, it's art, it's self expression, their assault upon an innocent citizen is not and they should be sued and prosecuted, it's the LAW.
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won't help (Score:5, Insightful)
This won't help for the guy who punched me in the face and ran, in broad daylight, at the busiest station in LA.
This won't help for the fact that even though he looked right into the camera, because I didn't write down what the exact car # it was (I still don't know where this number is supposedly posted), they couldn't pull the tape.
This won't help for the fact that the piggies suck at their job.
This won't help. But it will cost a lot of money and violate a lot of people's privacy. So good idea, eh?
What About Bikes, Scooters and Skateboards (Score:5, Interesting)
A fair number of people riding the Metro take auxiliary transportation modes with them - bikes, scooter (powered and unpowered), and skateboards all which are large metal containing objects, in addition to various other cargos. Subways aren't planes - people take them to go shopping, and there is no "cargo hold" or a place to "check baggage" - people carry everything they are taking on their person. Also people are often moving pretty fast to make it from one line to the next in their commute. What happens when one of these monitors triggers? Though they do have Metro Cops, they have never had enough to have them posted routinely at every Metro entrance or transfer point. How is this really going to work?
And does the "mass casualty" standard make any sense? Two of the worst mass shootings in the U.S. history - the Luby's (24 dead) and Virginia Tech (33 dead) massacres - were done with hand guns - both of them polymer frame Glocks that have less metal than standard handgun designs.
Re:What About Bikes, Scooters and Skateboards (Score:5, Insightful)
How is this really going to work?
Here's an excerpt from TFA:
“I guess it is a good, precautionary thing,” Andrea Kirsh said, a 22-year-old student from Corvallis, Oregon, who was traveling through Los Angeles’ Union Station on Tuesday. “It makes me feel safe. As a civilian I think we often don’t know what to look for or what we would be looking for.”
It works because it makes Andrea feel safe. That's what security theater is all about.
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It works because it makes Andrea feel safe. That's what security theater is all about.
Not it isn't. That's only part of what it's about.
It's about making you feel safe and complacent as your rights are eroded right around you, largely unnoticed.
Re:What About Bikes, Scooters and Skateboards (Score:4, Interesting)
A Glock has a great deal of polymer, but the barrel, chamber, magazine, trigger mechanism, springs and firing pin, as well as all the bullets are metal and will set off a metal detector, The polymer and all the metals make for a rather solid, gun shaped mass that the scanners will see.
They stick out quite clearly on the x-ray scanners your carry on items go through as well. In 2002 my Nat Guard unit was doing security at the Olympic village, working with Secret Service agents; during a slow time they showed us how effective the x-ray machines were, one of the SS agents put her firearm (a glock btw) through the scanner, there was no question there was a gun in that backpack she put it in to run it through the scanner. The shape was obvious as was the stack of bullets in the magazine and even the one in the chamber was visible (jacketed lead slugs tend to show up very well).
Even the current "undetectable" scare about 3-D printed firearms is bogus again because they have metal components and the ammo that will trigger a metal detector and the large mass of Gun shaped plastic will stand out on the scanners.
Looks like a portable device... (Score:4, Interesting)
Looks like a portable device, either an IR camera or terahertz scanner, not fixed infrastructure like airport body scanners.
So it will likely be deployed at random entrances to the system. Time for a Twitter feed with locations where the LAPD is deploying the damned things, same as feeds of drunk-driving or immigration checkpoints. Be a good citizen, watch the cops like a hawk watching a tasty piglet.
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Less of the past "random" and more a part of using transport.
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Fortunately, there's no money to staff every transport system entrance in the LA or any other major city. The trend is to cut staff and automate more.
Unstaffed scanners would essentially be useless since people bent on doing harm would just find a way around them.
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A GUI and network to track a person all over a city.
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Well shit, with an explanation that good I'm sure they'll let you check all the couches for change to spend on it.
What is a weapon? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:What is a weapon? (Score:4, Insightful)
>"What is a weapon?"
I want to know what is wrong with a gun being that weapon? Is this system going to stop law-abiding, good, licensed people from being able to carry? How is THAT going to increase security? We are not talking about an occasional plane trip here, with at LEAST the possibility of checking such into baggage, we are talking about DAILY TRANSPORTATION for many people. This would effectively strip them of their self-protection the entire day, every day. Oh, but it won't stop fists or baseball bats, or screwdrivers, or any other weapon that bad people to use to attack their potentially weaker, or older victims.
Is this what terrorism hysteria and security theater has come to now?
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I've read that the focus on guns versus screwdrivers is that a malicious person can more quickly kill multiple people with a gun, especially an automatic gun, than with a screwdriver.
N.B.: I haven't actually verified that for myself so it's just hearsay at this point.
Why trust anyone? (Score:2)
Trust has been on the way out for a long time. Its a whole lot easier to put this sort of stuff in than to ever take it away. Under the guise of everyone possibly being the next terrorist, AI will be right around the corner.
--
"My son was one of a kind. You're the first of a kind." -- Professor Hobby
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That's not how recessions/depressions work. The government always gets theirs first. Then, if there's enough left over, the people can have bread. If not, let them eat cake.
Government programs will be spun as economic stimulus. Until China steps out of line and we can get rolling on the next World War.
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I'm not sure a recession helps anyone. If its about teaching people lessons, that will hurt the surf's much harder than it will the nobility. People need to want change and need change, maybe it will happen?
--
When you give everyone a voice and give people power, the system usually ends up in a really good place. So, what we view our role as, is giving people that power. -- M. Zuckerberg
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Yep, Hillary Clinton had the right idea as far as running her own domain's email, though her IT people chose the wrong system (Exchange 2003).
There's another option other than SCADA/HVAC like Johnson Controls -- work supporting research or medical IT. There are a lot of legacy/specialized instruments that won't be in the "cloud" for the next 20 years. Too expensive to just replace and forget.
uh oh (Score:2)
The larger point ... (Score:2)
... is:
the new machines, which are being purchased from Thruvision, which is headquartered in the United Kingdom.
So, security and private shit is outsourced??
NSA will be hiring Thruvision for data.
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Look for a cattle rancher or a beekeeper.
"Waves," huh? (Score:5, Informative)
Does anyone know how this is supposed to work? Maybe a gun or a bomb or other large object would be colder than the rest of your body? So it would show up as a cold spot?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:"Waves," huh? (Score:4, Funny)
Which brings to mind a countermeasure. A giant hand flipping the bird, made of tinfoil and glued to the inside of a shirt. Or the letters:
FUCK
YOU
SWINE
(more to the point)
Re: (Score:2)
I bet one could make a pretty penny in LA if you could work out a way to weave thin metal wire into shirt fabric such that its otherwise invisible but shows up as obscene text or images on these body scanners.
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Of course, on a hot day, it would make sense to carry a cooler tote bag with some snacks. I wonder if they are 250GHz opaque?
On the upside... (Score:3)
Creeping... (Score:4, Insightful)
So all those people who claim that air travel is not a necessity and that you should forgo long-distance travel for pleasure or work or family to stick it to the TSA, (and therefore implicitly blaming people who do fly for 'supporting' this regime), what now? What when it is your local only-viable transport system that's installed it? When does the myth of the effective boycot get exposed, and we have to admit that there is a problem that can't be fixed by the 'market', and actually have to fix with legislation?
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One could make the argument all those "collaborators" have enabled the expansion of the totalitarian regime to the point where your only-viable transport system now has this crap installed. Maybe had they resisted back when they should have we would not be here today.
This is quite a world we've created (Score:2)
Students who need to walk through metal detectors and have police posted in their buildings; airport customers treated like prison visitors -- trip a detector and get searched; police and fire stations where officers sit behind 3-inches of bullet proof glass. And now subway body scanners.
Believe it or not, when I was a kid, we never locked the front door. Yeah, it wasn't all that long ago.
Taking away rights because 17 years ago airplanes. (Score:3, Insightful)
Because it's "voluntary". You know, you don't HAVE to voluntarily submit to this [otherwise unlawful search and seizure].
Just don't ride the subway. Your rights are all protected. Except of course the ability to use the government provided mass transit system.
E
What's next? (Score:2)
So subways are "voluntary", as is using the public libraries. Court houses need scanners for "safety". Walmart is "a private business". Oh, and interstates are also "voluntarily", you can take an alternate route (or walk).
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
So subways are "voluntary", as is using the public libraries. Court houses need scanners for "safety". Walmart is "a private business". Oh, and interstates are also "voluntarily", you can take an alternate route (or walk).
The US has no right to roam. Vagrancy is illegal in most places. Walking along highways and freeways is illegal. Railways too. Very, very little of the area within the US has any form of public transit.
Even the word "alternative" should remain in quotes.
Re:Taking away rights because 17 years ago airplan (Score:5, Interesting)
The difference in CA is that they've so removed gun ownership rights.
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Do people really want an airport experience to ride the subway to and from work every day? I think not.
Re:Would this hold up in court? (Score:5, Insightful)
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OF COURSE people don't want it. The government wants it. As do the sellers of the scanners. They are more powerful than the people, so they get what they want.
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We need to build a wall around the US and ban international travel for any US citizens to stop the infection from spreading.
Re:Would this hold up in court? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not constitutional there either. Or at least it wouldn't be if the judges weren't developmentally delayed morons that couldn't grasp the consequences of any of their decisions.
Some are corrupt, some stupid, and many quietly taken aside when a key case/decision/precedent is in play for a meeting. Remember the "interview scene" from The Matrix when Agent Smith and Neo first meet?
Do you remember that huge binder of data Smith dropped on the desk, opened, and began to tell Neo all about the minute details of his life like the "neighbor lady" he takes the trash out for? Thanks to the US TLAs there are virtual 'binders' on everyone including judges and their family, friends, and associates. They might note that his kid/grandkid/spouse/loved-one/etc might be dabbling in something technically illegal and it would be tragic if police received an 'anonymous tip'. "Now wouldn't it, your Honor? I know you'll do the right thing. For your family's sake."
That's one of the great dangers of having an intelligence agency with data on everyone...it makes them the de facto leaders, not those elected by the people to lead, as those in charge of the intelligence agencies have the ability to destroy anyone (and/or their loved ones) they wish at any time for whatever reason they like.
Always treat government like fire. History teaches us that you are more likely by far to be unjustly killed or imprisoned at the hands of your own government than from the actions of any foreign nation or terrorist group, foreign or domestic.
Strat
Re:Would this hold up in court? (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess that depends if the subway counts as a government or private entity.
If it was a government one, then wouldn't the right to free movement be a stronger argument?
If it is private, then you are shit out of luck.
Of course these days they love to blur the lines... because representing the people is the LAST thing they want to do - where is the advantage in that (to themselves, of course..)
airports are government and they scan you! (Score:2)
airports are government and they scan you!
Re:Would this hold up in court? (Score:5, Insightful)
When was the last time you saw anyone actually asking for representation?
Last time I checked the election was between R's and D's. Neither of which are for the little guy. Both are for big business, they just go about it in different ways so that people can use cheap excuses to say they are really different. There is a reason both parties are splintering. Both of their own recognize that they cannot get representation.
Bush a republican created this problem and Mr "we are 5 days away from fundamentally transforming America" Obama a democrat didn't change a single fucking thing... except the rhetoric.
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The person can then select not to go further. Not to get scanned by not using the service.
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There could be glzed truffle dinuts in those bags.
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OK, and how do they get where they need to go? For most poor people, public transportation isn't optional. We don't all have huge sums of money and time to buy a car and wait in traffic.
I don't think a reasonable person would consider this voluntary if the alternative is being restricted to going places that you can walk.
Re:Would this hold up in court? (Score:4, Interesting)
The need for some type of reasonable and articulable suspicion is removed when everyone is scanned.
Scan everyone and that later legal question is stopped. Its not the police selecting any random person. Everyone gets a scan thats equal before the law.
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Re:You can thank a muslim (Score:4, Insightful)
this is utter garbage.
We Americans are at fault for this, allowing a bunch of terrorists to scare ignorant people like you into allowing this tyranny.
Those who give up essential liberty for safety do not get either liberty or safety as well as no longer deserving liberty or safety.
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Tyranny is hardest to fight when it's imposed slowly and subtly and with the support of a large portion of the populace who thinks it makes them safer.
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Wow. They have completely got you. Like totally. The government has seized control of your mind and ravaged your critical thinking.
They are literally taking your freedom away right before your eyes and yet you are still taking the bait and blaming the scapegoat.
Re:Sounds like Total Recall! (Score:4, Informative)
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Terahertz waves are LOWER frequency waves than IR.
Re:Another reason to love telecommuting (Score:4, Informative)
Driver and passenger faces are kept as they enter a city and on the drive back after work.
All cell phone network use is detected and collected too.
Face, method transport and details on the type of in use communication.
Lots of CCTV in all city areas then fills in the gait and face. Daily movements to work and what is done while working in the city.
Domain Awareness System https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
History from the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: Another reason to love telecommuting (Score:2)
When I was a kid we had a saying, used when people disagreed with each other: "do what you want, it's a free country."
Nowadays if someone says "it's a free country", people just wince and laugh nervously.
The terrorists won. And keep winning more & more with each new form of automated tyranny.
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The thing about a secret police is that they're not very secret if they wear a uniform.
Which'll be why the Gestapo didn't have one.
You want the police to go around in civilian clothing?
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My Dad grew up in Egypt, a military dictatorship with a strong and well established police state.
He would tell you that even though the secret policemen would wear civilian clothing... you knew who they were. They want you to know. Secret police are about oppression, about knowing that you are being watched.
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Someone asking a stupid question isn't really a reference. The Gestapo had no uniform.
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Yeah, I mean it's not like there's a very strong push from LEOs everywhere to end strong encryption or anything.
Re:Safety? (Score:5, Informative)
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The human body does not emit terahertz waves in any detectable amount. And terahertz waves are NOT IR. That's like saying microwave ovens are FM radios.
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gated subways yes ungated rail no (Score:2)
gated subways yes ungated rail will take a lot of work to rebuild station to channel people into paths (unless you want to pay to put rail on big overpasses in the middle of town)
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Even gated subways often have many entrances and many paths for people to travel. Rail, good luck. There's not even enough money to eliminate level crossings where trains can hit cars, let along putting everything on an overpass.
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I want that camper torn apart, full cavity searches all around.
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Newsflash, your own government is worse than the thing they're 'protecting you from.'
Re: Fear 24/7/365 (Score:2)
We have become the Soviet Union.
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I'd also like to see the FDA studies showing that the scanners are safe in this use. This is the same thing as the airport scanners where they're not and won't be tested isn't it? Somehow increasing cancer risk is a huge problem in CA unl