NYU Offers Full-Tuition Scholarships for All Medical Students (wsj.com) 167
New York University said Thursday that it will cover tuition for all its medical students regardless of their financial situation, a first among the nation's major medical schools and an attempt to expand career options for graduates who won't be saddled with six-figure debt [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled]. From a report: School officials worry that rising tuition and soaring loan balances are pushing new doctors into high-paying fields and contributing to a shortage of researchers and primary care physicians. Medical schools nationwide have been conducting aggressive fundraising campaigns to compete for top prospects, alleviate the debt burden and give graduates more career choices. NYU raised more than $450 million of the roughly $600 million it estimates it will need to fund the tuition package in perpetuity, including $100 million from Home Depot founder Kenneth Langone and his wife, Elaine. The school will provide full-tuition scholarships for 92 first-year students -- another 10 are already covered through M.D./PhD programs -- as well as 350 students already partway through the M.D.-only degree program.
Great news (Score:5, Insightful)
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I suspect this topic is more complicated than you realize. The Caribbean medical schools are oddly enough considered to be US medical schools, and US citizens who for whatever reason don't get accepted to a mainland medical school tend to go those schools. The supply of doctors is artificially lowered by a number of factors, not the least of which is congressional funding for residency spots. Roughly 10% of people who finish medical school and apply f
hollywood upstairs medical college shutdown (Score:2)
But Caribbean is a lot better then the high cost of living in hollywood
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Re:Great news (Score:4, Interesting)
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Yep, there's also a school in Israel (Sackler, named after the Sacklers of Purdue Pharma infamy) that's technically a US school.
For the more adventurous, programs in Europe (Czech, Poland, Ireland), accept US students and teach in English. Even though they're not "US" schools, students from there generally do get residencies in the US if they do well.
The advantage of some of the European programs is that they can also lead to work or residency in Europe should the student decide that returning to the USA i
Teachers? (Score:2)
in the 70's medical students used bankruptcy to ge (Score:2)
in the 70's medical students used bankruptcy to get there loans wiped out.
So why are doing stuff that they really do not need at the cost of others who own 50K+ and have little hope working Starbucks to pay it off?
Depends on the Doctor (Score:5, Insightful)
That's where importing doctors comes in. They're trained overseas where education is usually paid for by tax dollars. That's made up for a lot of the supply issues. We could fix those issues with better pay but given our insurance system that's not an option. So if we take away those imports and we don't fix the pay problems we're going to have massive shortages.
Re:Depends on the Doctor (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem is that the United States isn't the only jurisdiction trying to grab foreign-trained doctors. A lot of industrialized countries are looking at foreign talent to fill skilled labor pools that, for a variety of reasons, can't be filled by domestic labor supplies. The UK, for instance, has a very large shortage of doctors, and is soaking up talent anywhere it can find it, so right away you start with inter-jurisdictional competition to lure qualified doctors.
True, and our crap insurance system doesn't help (Score:2)
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However, it does nothing for good students wanting to become teachers
1. Teaching does not require an advanced degree. A BA/BS is sufficient. Some teachers get advanced degrees, but there is no evidence that these degrees make them better teachers.
2. There is no general shortage of teachers. Some schools in bad areas have trouble recruiting, but most schools have plenty of applicants for open jobs.
My daughter is in college. In-state tuition+books+boarding is costing me about $20k/yr, or about $80k total. If she had gone to community college for the first 2 years, I wou
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> teachers who
who don't have to go to a very expensive grad school on top of their undergraduate degree in underwater basket weaving.
There have been state programs to pay for teacher tuition since when I was an undergrad. Same goes for reimbursement programs for teaching in less than desirable districts.
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There's a bit of a dark underside to that as we're taking some of the most highly skilled individuals from those countries
Poor countries tend to squander talent. That is why they are poor.
So don't feel too bad about "brain drain". It is often beneficial for both the sending and receiving countries. The remittances sent home by overseas workers often far exceeds what they would contribute to the economy if they had stayed home.
When Deng Xiaoping first opened up China's economy in 1979, he decided on an explicit policy of exporting talent that China's domestic economy could not effectively utilize. He figured that China woul
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I think that China's success had much, much less to do with talent returning in the long term (though this has happened) and more to do with a market economy and outsi
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US hardly has the highest levels of either. High personal freedom in a country that locks up almost 1% of their population at a given time? Where everything has a warning sign, everything is subject to rules. Go to Italy, you can park a car anywhere without being ticketed, speed limits on motorways are the equivalent of 90 mph, and no one asks too many questions from anyone. In most of Europe, kids as young as 8 walk or take public transport to school. They're expected to be independent; no one calls f
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> Economic freedom in the US?
The fact that you're too much of an indoctrinated moron to take advantage of it doesn't mean the rest of us aren't. Southern Italy has a nice layabout culture. That's about it.
There are plenty of OTHER places in Europe that will make you fell like you are living in a police state. HELL, just the machine guns toted around by local cops in Italian cities should give you the creeps if you're American.
French speeding cameras are very efficient (oddly enough) and you need to take
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I like a layabout culture -- all work and no play makes boys and girls dull.
Italian police: the issue isn't the machine guns. The issue is the willingness to use firearms that exists in the US. I'd much rather have cops with machine guns with restricted rules of engagement and strict training (Carabineri are military) than poorly-trained, trigger-happy cops with pistols.
French speed cameras: at least the rules are known (10 km/h over the limit and a fine in the mail), but the actual limits are much more r
No, we need more nurses (Score:2)
We need more home grown doctors. I don't know about the rest of /. but I'm getting older. Right now we've been able to poach doctors from poorer countries but those countries are modernizing so that's not going to last forever.
We are facing a shortage of doctors, but training more doctors is unlikely to be the best answer to the problem. We need to offload work currently done by doctors to other staff who don't need as much training. I doubt it takes 6 years of post-bachelor training to diagnose a toddler's ear infection. It won't be easy to make such a transition in our medical industry, but it may be less painful than medical costs increasing 5%+ higher than inflation every year.
what about cutting down pre med time? 2 year gen (Score:2)
what about cutting down pre med time?
What about 2 years general study's or some pre med AA/AS? and then med school with the BS/BA stuff mixed in?
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There are combined 6 and 7 year programs that get students a medical degree out of high school in the US. Incidentally, this is the way most of the world outside of the US does things -- medicine is a 6-year university degree out of high school.
The problem is that the admission process in the US is too competitive in the wrong ways. They focus too much on extracurriculars, seeing an applicant as a "whole person", volunteering for religious groups, etc. Whereas in France, anyone can get in, and as long as
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Various schemes like nurse practitioners certainly can help, but the chief problem is aging demographics in most industrialized nations, which means patients are getting older, with more complex conditions, and that means you need doctors, and not just doctors, but more specialists. So sure, you can take some load off of the system by looking at alternative delivery methods, but that's not likely to get anywhere near enough to solving the primary issues.
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We are facing a shortage of doctors, but training more doctors is unlikely to be the best answer to the problem. We need to offload work currently done by doctors to other staff who don't need as much training. I doubt it takes 6 years of post-bachelor training to diagnose a toddler's ear infection. It won't be easy to make such a transition in our medical industry, but it may be less painful than medical costs increasing 5%+ higher than inflation every year.
You are paying the doctor to diagnose. Non-invasive treatment is almost always handed off to more appropriately skilled staff.
The diagnostic expertise is what takes years to hone. Nine people in ten can spot the zebra in the horse corral, but they can't find the lame horse with similar success (or substitute a car analogy, I'm lazy today).
I don't disagree with you. Turning out Nurse Practitioners by the dozen is not a panacea, however. The medical industry recognizes the shortages and action is happenin
Dr House (Score:2)
It's never lupus.
The larger point (Score:3)
We need more home grown doctors. I don't know about the rest of /. but I'm getting older. Right now we've been able to poach doctors from poorer countries but those countries are modernizing so that's not going to last forever.
I think there's a larger point here that people are missing.
The school is putting aside enough money to fund the scholarships in perpetuity.
If you have enough wealth gathered in one spot, you can use it to fund things forever. We could gradually extend this model to cover other universities and other disciplines, and eventually reach the point where all university education is funded this way.
(Would require a *lot* of invested money - probably more than the current GDP - but we could do it incrementally ove
Not paid as much as you think (Score:4, Interesting)
We do, but doctors should be making enough money to pay their student loans.
They should but you hugely overestimate how much money certain specialties like family practice make - not to mention the number of hours they work. Specialists can do much better of course but it's still hard to start off with several hundred thousand in debt (medical school plus undergrad typically) at the beginning of your career. Plus residencies can take 3-8 years and they only get paid something like $40K per year while a resident.
What about the other students that are going into areas that don't pay as well, but are also essential?
A fair question. We used to do this by adequately funding state schools. But people of a certain political persuasion in the US don't like that for ideological/political reasons so the funding has languished and debt has been piled on young people when they are least able to deal with it so that others can get tax cuts they don't really need. Of course even some private schools really don't need to charge what they do. Harvard has a $36 billion endowment so every student who goes there could go there for free if Harvard chose to do that.
Why should they be subsidizing people going into such high paying professions?
A lot of graduate schools are highly subsidized. I got a scholarship to grad school. But pragmatically because we need more of them. Because the job is important. Because that school can do it. The question should be why are we not doing it for more professions rather than why this profession in particular. What you should be asking is which important profession can we help out next.
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But pragmatically because we need more of them. Because the job is important. Because that school can do it.
We don't just need more of them.... as a country we desperately need more of them;
the shortage of qualified medical professionals is one of the inputs into the cost of medical care --- which, in case some of you haven't noticed,
has become ridiculously high.
The high cost of major medical operations and treatments is a result of multiple factors, but a major one is the high demand and low supp
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There was a study that claimed 1 of 6 wasted dollars on needless tests was fear of liability, while 5 of 6 wasted dollars was on doctors over-ordering tests needlessly because they get to charge a little bit to process the results. Waste for pennies on the dollar.
Much like Congress slinging billions because someone donates $50k.
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At the same time, the safety net is so full of holes, a bad medical income that doesn't kill you casts you into the pit of eternal poverty unless you get a big settlement in a malpractice suit. Understandably, nobody wants to be in that pit.
Fill in the pit and we can cut back on extreme malpractice settlements.
Costs versus pricing (Score:2)
the shortage of qualified medical professionals is one of the inputs into the cost of medical care --- which, in case some of you haven't noticed,
has become ridiculously high.
My wife is a doctor so I have some direct insight into this. I won't deny that it likely plays some role but it's not at the top of the list or even in the top 5. Honestly I'm fine with paying doctors (and nurses) relatively high salaries if it correlates to high quality of care and there is some evidence to suggest it does. I'd rather they get the money than say investment bankers or other financial leaches in our society. The worst part of the cost is that they have to hire virtual armies of non-medic
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You do have a valid point but healthcare costs in the US have reached insane levels that are impossible to excuse. Conservatives are right in that expenses like this DO have to be made up. Liberals are right in that doctors given this pass WILL take the money and run because they can with a few altruistic e
not all doctors make $150k (Score:5, Insightful)
Because that's how you get more doctors."
This way someone can become a doctor and take a not-as-well-paying position in under-served areas or research.
Re: not all doctors make $150k (Score:2)
Re: not all doctors make $150k (Score:2)
I know, right? Cha motherfucking CHING, baby! C'mon ... up top!
If the Internet has proven anything beyond all reasonable doubt, it's that humans are not inherently good, ultrustic, unselfish creatures, and the notion that all of these students were pining to do the most good, if only their gosh-darn loans weren't so high, will turn out to be largely unfounde
What? No new building? (Score:5, Funny)
Is this really the best way to spend the generous donations of your alumni? Surely there is a better way to spend this money, like a lazy river in an event center.
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You are right on point. I had to chuckle at the School officials worry that rising tuition and soaring loan balances part of the summary. It is obvious that the only reason that tuition has gone up is because there is more money available (in the form of federally subsidized grants and loans, among other thing). Else, why would the cost of tuition grow so much fast than inflation?
Seriously, most universities are not paying their faculty more money, but they are hiring loads more administrators (look at t
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There were two main things that enabled the rise in college cost. You are right that the availability of cheap federally backed (and non-bankruptable) loans is part of it. The second is that less and less public money is going to subsidize education. It's a surprisingly little recognized fact that state universities used to be subsidized by the states. Over time that subsidy has been diminished to almost 0. When your boomer parents claim they paid for college working the night-shift, they are delusional.
Congratulations for proving... (Score:2)
You don't need a government program to fix everything, private donations and effort can actually work to fix problems like the rising cost of tuition.
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You don't need a government program to fix everything, private donations and effort can actually work to fix problems like the rising cost of tuition.
So.....instead of relying on government to handle necessary services and programs you feel we should just rely on the generosity of billionaires.....I fail to see how that could go wrong in any way.
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Even then, I'm not sure I believe that government should subsidize the costs of medical school. Sure you can argue that the world needs doctors and this will help ensure that the world gets its doctors, but someone else will come along and say that the world needs auto mechanics as well. So we might decide to pay their tuition in full as well, but
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they also have trades / apprenticeship Germany is (Score:2)
they also have trades / apprenticeship Germany is good and it's not college for all.
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-... [dw.com]
Re:they also have trades / apprenticeship Germany (Score:4, Informative)
Except Germany's extremely biased and social class enforcing stratification starting in early education fails to produce the kind of highly skilled workers that the modern economy demands. Germany is experiencing a shortage of workers with the complex skills gained in tertiary education [dw.com]. Specifically "managers, researchers, engineers, doctors, nurses and medical assistants".
Being bracketed into the "easy" path dooms students to failure in the rest of their academic careers. Despite efforts to expand access, drop out rates are increasing especially for those previously bracketed onto lower paths, and total time until graduation is increasing for those who do finish [llcsjournal.org]. This is while the same high skill jobs go unfilled.
For the US though, the reality [theatlantic.com] is that making college free in the US would be cheaper for the federal government than its current programs.
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> Most developed countries have a tuition free public university system
So fucking what? You failed to address the original point. Public universities are the responsibilities of the states and they have dropped the ball. Republican and Democrat state governments alike have screwed the pooch already here.
Pointing to some other jurisdiction as justification as treating the government as your lord and savior is not really terribly compelling here. It doesn't even if we take your blind worship of those parti
Re:Congratulations for proving... (Score:4, Interesting)
Even then, I'm not sure I believe that government should subsidize the costs of medical school. Sure you can argue that the world needs doctors and this will help ensure that the world gets its doctors, but someone else will come along and say that the world needs auto mechanics as well. So we might decide to pay their tuition in full as well, but someone else might point out that no one really needs a car and can just take a bicycle to work and that it's morally wrong to make them pay to subsidize the automotive industry and all the pollution in creates.
We should subsidize both. Society needs skilled mechanics just as it needs skilled doctors, especially modern society. Of course, to do that would mean actually taxing people to pay for education rather than forcing people to take out exorbitant loans or depend on the generosity of those that have money. Because everyone benefits from an educated, trained society it therefore stands to reason that everyone would have a responsibility to help pay for it.
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We already have free k-12 education nationwide. How is that working out for us?
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So the blue states where all of the Occupy Wall Street protests were held have no problems in this area? That's some serious reality distortion field you're sitting in there.
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Subsidizing anything raises the price. You might think that you're getting it cheaper by playi
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You don't need a government program to fix everything, private donations and effort can actually work to fix problems like the rising cost of tuition.
True, this works well for medicine where people are very cognizant of the fact that at some point they are going to need good doctors. It is far less likely to work for fields like teaching or science where, although the entire population benefit, the benefit is not so direct.
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Why not? Rich people are capable of understanding society's need for these things, are they not?
Why yes they are able to understand. In fact, such endowments exist now for the fields of study you outline. They are just not ballyhooed in the press.
Maybe the problem here is the lack of interest by the press and then the public? Hmmm. Why isn't such philanthropic activity held in high esteem? Seems to me we spend more time engaged in class warfare than encouraging such giving.
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Why yes they are able to understand. In fact, such endowments exist now for the fields of study you outline.
Yes they do, but at nowhere near the levels required to actually operate all the teaching and research facilities that society needs to function. The problem with relying on giving is that only things which interest rich people get funded. In addition, some rich people will not fund anything at all which seems somewhat unfair.
This is why we have taxes to ensure that everyone pays something into the common kitty which is then used to fund things that society needs...or at least that is the theory, in pra
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No. The rich and well motivated provide for themselves. It's the rest of you takers are that are fucked. Most public school teachers are glorified babysitters. They are among the LEAST motivated of everyone that you went to school with. They are not trained in the subjects they teach and are mired in office politics, partisan politics, and academic dogma.
Donations from the rich (Score:2)
You don't need a government program to fix everything, private donations and effort can actually work to fix problems like the rising cost of tuition.
So instead of a government program with some measure of accountability, you prefer hand outs from wealthy donors with no accountability? Nothing wrong with private donations but depending on fickle handouts from rich people who may have ulterior motives isn't a very sensible way to run a society.
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You don't need a government program to fix everything, private donations and effort can actually work to fix problems like the rising cost of tuition.
So instead of a government program with some measure of accountability, you prefer hand outs from wealthy donors with no accountability? Nothing wrong with private donations but depending on fickle handouts from rich people who may have ulterior motives isn't a very sensible way to run a society.
And forcible confiscations of taxes from the poor, middle class and rich alike to support such programs IS sensible?
To each their own I guess.
You used government and accountable in the same sentence, implying that one gives you the other. Somehow I don't think you understand what "accountable" means because one doesn't give you the other. Besides, if doctors are getting trained and are able to meet the certification standards to get their licenses, what more accountability do you need in this case?
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It's the definition of sensible. Randians always squawk about how there INSTAAFL but think living in a first world civilization is free.
And they DGAF as long as they can set sail on one of their ten yachts that cost $40 million. For most of human history, the dominance of the rich and the misery o
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Ah... The socialist pull is strong with this one.. Shall we just go full communist then so you can just take all the rich have and give it to others? After all, your rhetoric is basically that.
I don't mind taxes for the provision of services like law enforcement, fire, roads and other public infrastructure, but I do generally object to taking money from one person just to give it to another in an effort to "even out" wealth or provide services to people for free. There are a few exceptions to this rule,
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A government always has an ulterior motive: to grow. Three universal laws are not to be messed with: speed of light, gravity, and self interest.
Private people giving money away adds to the economy. Government money by definition sucks from the economy. A private person managing their wealth does not need any 'accountability'. The point of accountability is to REIGN IN excess, waste, graft, name your moral failing.
Re:Donations from the rich (Score:5, Interesting)
Libertarian claptrap.
Plenty of instances where government largesse contributed to the economy. Giving railroads free land in the 1860s. Building the US and Interstate Highway systems in the 1920s through 1960s. Basic research that wouldn't otherwise be funded. Military research (unfortunately) with civilian applications -- Internet, telecommunications, nuclear power, etc.
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> So instead of a government program with some measure of accountability,
It cracks me up when anyone tries to say something like this.
WHAT ACCOUNTABILITY? When have you EVER seen genuine government accountability? At least with any market not dominated by a single monopoly player I can go elsewhere.
We are quite literally living in the age of Trump and all of the media narrative surrounding him and you have the epic gall to claim that government is "accountable". That's utterly deranged.
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Then you never would have had a single government program to begin with, if the largess of the leisure class was up to the task. This is why believing in the Easter Bunny as a grown-assed man is more respectable than believing in libertarian dogma.
Well, let's just go full communist then. Why not? IF the rich cannot be trusted to use their wealth wisely and you believe that this is a fundamentally unfair situation that they have more than most, Let's just go take their wealth and make things fair..
Also, the "leisure class" is largely non-existent. Nearly EVERY one of the uber-rich folks out there have worked for their money and earned it. Who? Bill Gates, Elion Musk, The Koch brothers, George Soros, Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump are just a few of
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Also, the "leisure class" is largely non-existent. Nearly EVERY one of the uber-rich folks out there have worked for their money and earned it. Who? Bill Gates, Elion Musk, The Koch brothers, George Soros, Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump are just a few of the names that come to mind. None of these folks inherited much of what they currently own, but worked for it.
Bill Gates - Father was a prominent attorney
Elon Musk - Father was an electromechanical engineer
Koch Brothers - Father was in the oil refining business, founded https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
George Soros - Father was a well-to-do lawyer
Jeff Bezos - (step) Father was an engineer
Donald Trump - Father was a real estate developer, with a company worth around $300 million at his death (which was being run by Donald)
Notice anything? None of the people you mentioned came from a working-class background (with t
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Also, the "leisure class" is largely non-existent. Nearly EVERY one of the uber-rich folks out there have worked for their money and earned it. Who? Bill Gates, Elion Musk, The Koch brothers, George Soros, Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump are just a few of the names that come to mind. None of these folks inherited much of what they currently own, but worked for it.
Bill Gates - Father was a prominent attorney Elon Musk - Father was an electromechanical engineer Koch Brothers - Father was in the oil refining business, founded https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] George Soros - Father was a well-to-do lawyer Jeff Bezos - (step) Father was an engineer Donald Trump - Father was a real estate developer, with a company worth around $300 million at his death (which was being run by Donald)
Notice anything? None of the people you mentioned came from a working-class background (with the possible exceptions of Bezos and Musk), they all had significant resources at their disposal. It's a lot easier to get an education or take a risk starting a new company if you can rely on your parents to bail you out if you fail. Contrast this with someone who's family goes hungry if they fail and it's not hard to see why the already privileged people are the ones that become ultra-wealthy.
Did YOU notice anything?
ALL in that list took modest sums and IMPROVED their lot by working at it. They are not the "leisure class" as some like to call them, but workers who earned most of their money.
My point is that we don't have very many uber-rich folks who didn't earn the majority of it by working for a living. Or as Larry Elder says "Hard work wins!" Which is the reason capitalism works, while socialism doesn't. IF you work hard, you *can* earn more and improve your lifestyle, it's up to you.
The
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Don't forget the only connection between those dots is the crap between your ears.
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Costs to NYUTuition (Score:3, Insightful)
I would be very interested in seeing the books on this program after a few years. The school realized it would not take much fundraising to cover their costs of educating the students. Note they do not have to cover the tuition they charge students; only their costs.
These days since colleges and universities have turned into money printing machines instead of educational entities, the difference between tuition and how much it actually costs the schools is so large they determined let's raise the money to cover our costs and live off the PR of providing free tuition. They have basically admitted the difference between the two amounts of money is ridiculous in this day and age.
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If Harvard simply kept their endowment in an index fund, the increased growth vs their current management of the endowment would be enough to cover all tuition and protect for inflation.
Even better idea... (Score:2)
Use that money to lower the cost of tuition for EVERYONE, maybe it won't be free, but if you lower the cost, then everyone can benefit. Also, perhaps they could put part of the money into research (and implementation) on how they can make their operations more efficient so that they don't have to charge such huge tuitions.
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Yeah, that's another way to go. But isn't that what they already do? Kind of like hospitals right?
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Schools and Doctors deserve each other (Score:2, Informative)
Personally, after their repeated failures to help my wife, me, and everyone I know with just about everything they've ever gone to see a fucking worthless
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OK, I'll bite. What is your "extensive experience"?
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I love your passion, but you're an idiot.
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It is true, I'm 20 and I've had perfect health all my life. That may change someday, but you will always be an idiot.
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Ask Economist for Second Opinion (Score:2)
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Yeah, but with a catch! (Score:2)
Too generous (Score:2)
The UK loans system - where you pay a higher rate of income tax collected by the tax authorities - until you pay off your loan or 30 years have elapsed since graduation, when it disappears, is a better model here; if the doctors do well, they repay the loan rather than merely being subsidised permanently. If they choose a low paying medical career, they don't.
Does This Include DNFs? (Score:2)
Very very generous indeed of the donors, although I have to wonder:
- Any plans for the recipients to be encouraged to pay this back?
- Will, or should, they ban DNFs from this program? (I've always had mixed feelings about the flood of foreigners coming into our educational systems, whether they plan to practice here or return home.)
(DNFs = "Dirty Nasty Foreigners", a running joke on one of my favorite forums, which incidentally is full of DNFs who find it funny)
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Re: Use the tution fees from gender studies degree (Score:4, Interesting)
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Then gender studies would be a free degree, if I understand the logic that started this thread. Seems fair.
Really?!? That's great! I already spend hours studying the opposite-sex gender, and now you'll pay for my subscription for PornHub? Cool!!
And if I might be so bold, I'd like to point out some fetish [pinterest.com] sites. [pinterest.com]
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Med school tuition is $60,000 yr. Multiply this by 400 students enrolled at any one time, and you get $24 million a year, which just so happens to be 4% of $600 million. Their idea is to invest the $600 million at a conservative rate of 4% and skim the dividends and profits to fund the program.
Something similar worked for Cooper Union for 90 years or so before their endowment went bust in the 2008-9 recession.