Popular College Majors Changed Abruptly After the Financial Crisis (qz.com) 254
An anonymous reader shares a report: Ten years have passed since the 2008 financial crisis, and the effects linger. For one thing, the crisis produced a significant shift in American higher education. Scared by a seemingly treacherous labor market, since the downturn college students have turned away from the humanities and towards job-oriented degrees. It's not clear they are making the right decision. The humanities were humming along prior to 2008, according to an analysis by the Northeastern University historian Benjamin Schmidt. Over the previous decade, disciplines like history, philosophy, English literature, and religion were either growing or holding steady as a share of all college majors. But in the decade after the financial crisis, all of these majors took a nosedive. The popularity of the history major is an illustrative example. From 1998 to 2007, the share of college students graduating with a degree in history averaged around 2%. By 2017, it had fallen closer to 1%. (All data in this article are based on reports that colleges submit to the US Department of Education.) Other humanities majors saw a similar fall. "Declines have hit almost every field in the humanities... and related social sciences," wrote Schmidt in the The Atlantic. "[T]hey have not stabilized with the economic recovery, and they appear to reflect a new set of student priorities, which are being formed even before they see the inside of a college classroom."
The humanities strike back (Score:5, Insightful)
Oooh, so that was the reason....people got wind of the uselessness of (most of) those degrees (especially the WAY they are taught), enrolment decreased, and the response of the humanities was.....the insane politicking and the march against logic, reason, knowledge, discipline, learning, critical thinking, diversity of opinion, open mindedness, freedom of thought and speech....etc.
Figures!
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credentialing /= job training /= education
Hardly anybody has the education to understand that, although people generally do know where the money is.
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing I have found is that Humanities attracted the wrong type of students.
I always though that Humanities should require up to 200 level of Math and Sciences, Just as STEM Majors are required to have up to 200 levels in Humanities. The fact that humanities are so weak in Math and Science, they attract students who are actively avoiding math and science classes. Academics who are avoiding learning material because they don't do well in the test, doesn't create good academics. If these people decide to join the workforce, it isn't their lack of Math or science skills but their lack of interest in taking on something because it is hard.
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My first computer teacher was the school's drama teacher. He was also the last computer teacher, as none had anything to teach after that, and I ended up in the physical sciences and a career in numerical computing. If you had an interest in science or engineering, the degree doesn't matter that much. If you didn't have an interest, no degree should even be possible. It is though in the humanities, which makes the bulk of their product so useless and insufferable.
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Hmm, when I was in high school I took bio and advanced bio. But then the University of California did not accept those classes as a "science" (chemistry and physics only), so I had to squeeze another class in as a senior.
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You hit the proverbial nail on the head, with one caveat: the wrong type of student is what entered college to begin with, if this is the common behavior. And it is.
The fact that STEM course avoidance due to difficulty is a thing that exists in college, is very telling of America, just how much society loathes, actual intelligence and an educated populace. / casual American here...
The often uttered "I'll never use this" in real life from my peers, was something I could only shake my head at. As if they know
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet liberal arts majors are the first to peer down their noses with intellectual superiority.
You must be new here.
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Given the implicit advocacy of STEM in this reply, the absence of any concrete support for the author's thesis is rather remarkable.
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Interesting)
A Proper education needs Humanities and STEM.
I went to college before STEM was a thing, it was just Computer Science, which was part of the Math and Physics department.
But that is what I saw. For my "STEM" Major I needed to take courses including 200 level Humanity classes. Covering History, Literature, Politics, Arts, Sociology, Philosophy and Psychology. The college wisely determined that Technology Majors should have a diverse education.
However humanity majors needed to retake High school Algebra if they didn't already have taken it. And a class in "Science" which was a humanity like class explaining science. This really gave them a disservice in their education.
However the argument seemed to go like this.
Them: Not everyone is good at Math and Science so they shouldn't have to take these classes which will only hurt their GPA.
Me: I am not good at Humanity classes, and they are hurting my GPA, why can't I skip them?
Them: Because these classes are valuable to education.
Me: Isn't Math and Science valuale to education
Them: Yes, but not a lot of people are good at it.
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I concur. I got a lot out of an Egyptian history class, and although I'm shit at art, I really appreciated taking a pottery class. Exposure to things outside your comfort zone is really a good thing. It helps you understand how big the world is, and how specialized people can be in areas you don't even know exit.
The undergraduate college I went to actually required humanities to take STEM coursework. The popular science classes were "Rocks for Jocks" and Astronomy. Both were somewhat dumbed down and simplif
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Interesting)
Good universities require a broad level of education to graduate - you may major in one subject but are still required to learn many diverse subjects. But too many places tend to be too tightly focused, bending to the students' desires to not "waste time" on stuff they're not interested in. Some of these universities just seem like overpriced trade schools. I think some of this came about because some engineering majors have so many prerequisites and courses that they're already a 5 year degree without counting in the breadth requirements.
So engineering students should most definitely learn writing.
Writing students should learn math and science.
Everyone should learn political science.
Divide it up into three spheres; math/science, arts, and social sciences. Then everyone should be dabbling into all three of those.
Humanities degrees are anything but useless (Score:3, Insightful)
As for why you want people to learn critical thinking, well, what's one of the first things a fascist does when he seizes power? Even before he goes after guns? That's right, they crack down on the intelligentsia. Fascism can't exist in a country of critical thinkers. People see past the bullshit.
As for why _you_ want
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Statistically, the probability that you actually teach "prob and stats" approaches zero.
Re:Humanities degrees are anything but useless (Score:4, Insightful)
As for why you want people to learn critical thinking, well, what's one of the first things a fascist does when he seizes power? Even before he goes after guns? That's right, they crack down on the intelligentsia. Fascism can't exist in a country of critical thinkers. People see past the bullshit.
The self proclaimed intelligentsia look pretty dumb in light of safe spaces, shouting down others as a primary form of debate, and their love of double standards. They are pretty proud of themselves but the rest of the world holds them in contempt. They are not heirs to such lofty ideals as "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" or "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." As far as facism not existing among critical thinkers, you may have a point but universities are bastions of intolerance and group think so there is in fact a negative correlation between universities and ability to think critically.
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No? Are those safe spaces for you?
You have a misunderstanding of the term safe spaces. It should be obvious by now that mos
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Re:Humanities degrees are anything but useless (Score:5, Insightful)
Can I come to your house and scream at you about why my value system is great, and your value system is terrible? How about your job? Want to invite me along next time you go jogging or riding a bicycle so I can mock your religious views? Can I sit shotgun on your morning commute and berate you about your lifestyle choices?
A speaker coming to a campus, like Milo Yiannopoulos who had his speaking event canceled at a campus near me, is not screaming at me from the passenger seat in my car. These are people that reserved a space on a campus and if you don't like what they have to say then invite your own speaker. In fact I'd be fine if you hold up some placards outside the event. What should never be tolerated is violence in response or disrupting the event with noise making and screaming. If you want the freedom to share your views then you must tolerate those you oppose to speak as well.
Care to have me preach about satanism at your local church?
No? Are those safe spaces for you?
I do feel that my church is a safe space. I suspect that if you ask nicely that you might actually be allowed to speak on satanism at the church, perhaps not during scheduled Sunday worship but the building is open to many diverse groups to meet, such as a local ham radio club that meets in their basement.
You have a misunderstanding of the term safe spaces. It should be obvious by now that most people have plenty of "safe spaces". But, imagine you're a LGBTQ college kid who shares a 12' x 12' dorm room with a bigoted moron. Where do you go to get away from that.
You get away from that by a complaint to the people that run the residence halls. They don't want to see those assigned a room together to get in fights and such so they will find another room. At a minimum they would be most likely willing to let someone out of the contract, I was able to do that because I was not happy in my room. It wasn't a roommate issue, just that the room was only 12x12.
And I agree that shouting down others as a primary form of debate is awful, and all too common. But if you think it's somehow limited to liberal college kids, you must have a very narrow view of the world yourself.
No, I'm pretty sure it's limited to liberal college kids. Most anyone else in college is too focused on doing their calculus and the rest just plain grew up.
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see for a study citation that shows most of the censorship on campus is directed at left wing people. Make of it what you will but the study appears accurate
Oh, really? Where's the study? You link to a YouTube video by a lefty pundit. If you watch the video, the 75% number comes from a Tweet. I challenge you to find a "study" that shows that 75% number. Let's see a proper citation, none of this regurgitation of a regurgitation.
Re:Humanities degrees are anything but useless (Score:4, Interesting)
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"They are pretty proud of themselves but the rest of the world holds them in contempt. "
Or maybe you dont speak for "the rest of the world". I mean shit, maybe try walking your talk
There really isn't very much of that (Score:2, Troll)
Basically, the right wing are running a victim complex to deflect attention away from their own actions. Think about it, the political right have complete control of virtually all branches and levels of government. There's a handful of left leaning districts in CA & NY, but nationally they've got the House, Senate, Presidency and locally they have virtually all the State Legislatures (they were just shy of calling a constituti
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The self proclaimed intelligentsia look pretty dumb
"Intelligentsia" is a accolade given to someone with a track record of persuasive and sophisticated arguments about complex topics. It is not something someone gets to claim about themselves, 'cuz they threw a little political rally on campus and yelled a lot.
"Self proclaimed intelligentsia" is chock-filled with people entirely lacking in self-awareness. They are too easy fodder for Straw Man arguments.
You have seen some the left wing nutters. Have you noticed the right wing nutters whining about "avocad
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My guess is that you're get your notion of what's happening on college campuses from critical thinkers like Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity. What was the last time you've been on a college campus or spoken to any university professor?
I bet you have no problem with lofty ideals such as telling people not to "monkey things up" by electing a black candidate.
I don't listen to talk radio of any sort, I prefer to read my news. That said I pick from a variety of outlets including liberal ones like Yahoo news and international ones like BBC. I was on a college campus last week as my GF works on one. In fact she was considering what her shift should dress up as for Halloween this year (last year was all pirates) and one possibility was cowboys & indians. I discouraged her from it as someone, like yourself, would pitch a fit.
I could care less if someone say
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"Monkey it up" is not a common phrase - mess it up, fuck it up, screw it up, yes, but monkey it up? There was definitely something on the Republican candidate's mind and I figure it was more dog whistling than warning to his fgollowers.
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Contrary to popular thought you _can_ teach critical thinking. But you can't do it with Math. Math is too difficult a subject and there's no value in being 50% right.
I agree with your general sentiment (that humanities degrees are useful) but disagree that they are better than math at teaching critical thinking, or even as good as math. Honestly, there are two subjects that dramatically improved my critical thinking skills - physics, and statistics. Both of them use applied math to analyze and solve real world situations.
The thing that you point out (no value in being 50% right) is the exact reason that many STEM classes are better than humanities at teaching critical t
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Honestly, there are two subjects that dramatically improved my critical thinking skills - physics, and statistics. Both of them use applied math to analyze and solve real world situations.
Yes.... these two subjects at a level advanced enough to require knowledge of at least single-variable differential and integral calculus are subjects that ANYONE graduating from college ought to be required to take -- as necessary to be well-rounded.
It doesn't matter if your degree is humanities --- If you are lacking
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Insightful)
We need the humanities, but prior to the financial crisis it seemed to me that it was already widely accepted that we had far more graduates in those fields than we needed, and that the vast majority of them were thus incapable of putting their degree to good use. While enrollment may be half of what it was prior to the crisis, that doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem. If anything, I'm inclined to think that the market has corrected itself and that today's supply of graduates is closer to actual demand for people in those fields.
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Interesting)
We need the humanities, but prior to the financial crisis it seemed to me that it was already widely accepted that we had far more graduates in those fields than we needed, and that the vast majority of them were thus incapable of putting their degree to good use. While enrollment may be half of what it was prior to the crisis, that doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem. If anything, I'm inclined to think that the market has corrected itself and that today's supply of graduates is closer to actual demand for people in those fields.
Exactly. To add to this: There used to be (and still is) in some circles a saying that "A liberal arts education prepares you for any job", meaning that if you major in art history for example you can get a great job in banking. I think that while it's true that studying any field in depth can help you in any other field, the reality is that the world is more specialized now. Due to better communication, everyone is now affected by global competition to some degree, and, as a result of this, people are now more than ever expected to actually have skills in the field they work in. I think student expectations have also changed. Why spend 4 years studying art history when you have almost no chance of getting a job in that field, whereas if you study a field that has good job prospects, you'll be at an advantage compared to everyone without that degree. It's just practicality.
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Re:The humanities strike back (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, the humanities!
(sorry, I know, bad pun... but when do you get to say it?)
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Your username seems to be quite appropriate.
Dichotomy (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an interesting position to take. Humanities are required in the science and engineering fields - I had to take at least six classes of English, languages, arts or philosophy for my engineering degree.
Now universities are eliminating math requirements from humanities curriculums. Because, apparently, structured critical thinking skills are not required in a rounded university education.
At the very least make everyone take a statistics class. That's the one thing everyone seems to botch.
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Did you take physics or statistics? Because pure math is often just manipulating symbols and so it's difficult to see the relationship with anything in real life. Being good at algebra doesn't mean you're a good critical thinker. But applied math (like physics and statistics) shows you how to use the formal methods of math to solve incredibly complex problems, gives you better tools for critical thinking than just about anything, and gives you practice using them in real-world scenarios.
I took many philosop
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Left out is a comparison of income growth and unemployment rate by degree track. Have those majors seen a huge salary run-up relative to college averages due to this new scarcity? Are key English and History jobs going unfilled? I suspect the answers are No and No, or the article would have headlined with those claims.
The exploding cost of higher education should be a real guy check for students and parents as so whether a desired degree track is worth the money/debt and if it will ever pay off. I belie
Re:The humanities strike back (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe they want to learn some skills for which someone would be willing to pay them. So's they can put their six-figure debt behind them and start life before they're 40. Not that a rich and broadly diverse education doesn't have value, in and of itself, but with a little sweat equity, it can be gotten for no money down. These are usually referred to as personal interests or pursuits, not marketable skills. The world has just gotten lousy with psychologists, sociologist and "journalists". GEEZ, everybody is fucking journalist, in case you haven't noticed.
Of course, it's not easy. In STEM, there is generally only one right answer to any problem. Most of the rest are wrong. Under the softer "sciences", there are almost no wrong answers. Unless the professor doesn't like it. So, don't pick that answer.
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I can't see foreign languages as useless
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"the insane politicking and the march against logic, reason, knowledge, discipline, learning, critical thinking, diversity of opinion, open mindedness, freedom of thought and speech....etc."
You mean like your post which features the insane politicking of an article about enrollment numbers for the humanities?
Everyone wants a golden parachute (Score:3)
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Perhaps you should look into an institution known as "Tenure".
Re:Everyone wants a golden parachute (Score:4, Insightful)
perhaps you should check out the fact the "tenure is dying", the percent of tenured professors has taken a nose-dive.
College is big business, high paid employees are bad for the bottom line.
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If someone is a top tier professor who runs his/her own large research group, can get the research grants rolling in, and has at least eight or more research students (1 post-doc student = £120,000 in revenue to the university), that individual is worth mega-bucks to the university.
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If you are having trouble following a train of thought maybe you should have stayed at the station.
Did you miss the bit in the heading of the article about the financial crisis?
And again in the summary?
And again in the post you replied to?
Learn something new every day.
I doubt that you do.
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"...with no performance review",
said someone online that clearly has no idea what they are talking about at all.
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Banks got bailed out Billions, each.
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Color me shocked (Score:4, Insightful)
So degrees that were never big money makers in the first place are now huge financial losses since the economy has taken a hit, so people are avoiding them?
>It's not clear they are making the right decision.
I mean, if by "right decision" you mean "not bankrupting themselves", then I'd say it's quite obvious they are making the right decision to skip out on these humanities degrees.
Re:Color me shocked (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the financial crisis highlighted to a lot of people that maybe they are not in the right financial class to be pursuing degrees with little to no market value. I wouldn't call the liberal arts "useless" in a greater metaphysical sense, I like art, I like a good story, I appreciate skillful use of language, and good poetry speaks to the soul. But except for a very small number of people who possess great talent, it is difficult to monetize the degree; it remains primarily a way of expanding your knowledge, it is primarily a luxury. That and a dime won't buy you coffee.
So for the largest portion of population they are seeing college degrees in the liberal arts in the same way that most of us look at athletics: something to pursue if you are born with the right genes and you spend your entire life maximizing that potential. If you do not, you won't make it.
Once upon a time universities were primarily for the very rich, with a few of the less wealthy brought in because their tremendous talent was recognized. The idle wealthy were basically paying the way for a few very gifted people. In the past 50 years, that has changed and most people can find a way to attend a university if they want to, but they need the degree they earn to pay for it, and to acquire a career that justifies the time. They basically cannot afford a luxury, they need to make an investment in their future. No sane person would argue that a humanities degree is a good investment in the future.
I'm not sure this story is really all that exciting, except to a marketing dweeb to see where cultural changes are redirecting money.
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You said it.
I will add to that. I think that there is a general cultural/societal idea that nearly every young person perceives that screams to them "thou shalt attend college." I was fortunate in that I wanted to be a rocket scientist from the time I saw my first space shuttle launch and then decided a few years later that I wanted to be a computer engineer. I became a computer engineer and have thoroughly loved it.
In my case my own career aspirations meshed well with the push to go to college. However
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Things like writing fiction, music, and painting depend more on talent than on university education. I knew plenty of music majors in college, but most of them were doing music education. For the music performance majors, you had to already be a good musician to get into the program, and it was more about the practice time and opportunity to get lessons from a trained,
Also because employers care (Score:5, Insightful)
There was a time (you know, back in the baby boomer days) when having a college degree was meaningful. It really didn't matter what the major was. Employers saw a degree and found that to be indicative of a good potential employee.
Today, college degrees aren't meaningless, they are a minimum expectation. Few
entry level white color jobs don't have a college degree as a minimum requirement to even get your application a set of eyes. But it's not even just the degree anymore. Entry level job postings will require a degree in a related field. That typically nixes humanities. So, parents and high school councilors know this and discourage studying humanities.
Honestly, I would discourage my children from studying humanities too.
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Today, college degrees aren't meaningless, they are a minimum expectation. Few entry level white color jobs don't have a college degree as a minimum requirement to even get your application a set of eyes.
Good reason for college education to be available for free, unless you can convince a majority of employers to drop the requirement. It's the reason that public education goes through high school; at the time, a high school diploma was considered the minimum for a routine office job.
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People can't walk away from education because our society holds traditional "sit-in-a-seat" education to an almost religious standing. You nearly can't do anything today without a college degree. So, there is no upper limit to how high college can cost. No matter how high the price, families will pay it because they believe they have to. If you don't, you are almost guaranteeing your own child will have limited opportunities.
Student Debt, Rising Colledge Cost and MOOCs (Score:2)
College costs have been rising and is expected to be financed by student loans. Student loans are now mostly private with up to 8% in interest rates.
It makes no financial sense to get yourself in $40,000-$50,000 in debt to get a humanities degree. Doing this will actually decrease your earnings as you have to make payments with 8% interest rates.
You can get the same knowledge with MOOCs.
Those majors are only for the independently wealthy now, not for the average person.
Re:Student Debt, Rising Colledge Cost and MOOCs (Score:5, Interesting)
As yet, MOOCs are valueless to students. The value of a college degree is still wrapped into the pedigree of the college it's received from. That may be completely unfair, but it's true. If I'm an employer and I see a student with a degree from the University of Texas and one with a degree from Online Southern Highlands Institute of Technology, all else being equal, I'm going with the Longhorn. Every time. Why? Is there any indication that the UT grad worked harder? Not necessarily. But I know UT and their pedigree. I don't know OSHIT.
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Finally! (Score:4, Interesting)
The popularity of the history major is an illustrative example. From 1998 to 2007, the share of college students graduating with a degree in history averaged around 2%. By 2017, it had fallen closer to 1%
Woohoo! I'm a 1%er!
Honestly though, I studied history because I enjoyed it and it was incredibly easy for me. I always planned to go to grad school afterwards to get myself a more marketable degree.
Re:Finally! (Score:4, Insightful)
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We only need so many historians. But history as a BA is an effective means of learning practical critical thinking skills, outside of the STEM fields.
What does a history student actually do? A bit simplified, it goes like:
Read a bunch of information about a topic
Consider previous analyses about topic
Form a reasonable theory
Create arguments to support the theory and back that with historical evidence/citations
Anticipate the main counterarguments, and counter argue with evidence
The are reasons so many futur
Seems pretty clear to me (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not clear they are making the right decision
How is it not clear that.a bunch of people turning away from History to study something they can use to get a job is the right choice?
Sure history is important, but not to the degree that we need a TON of history majors.
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It's not clear they are making the right decision
How is it not clear that.a bunch of people turning away from History to study something they can use to get a job is the right choice?
Maybe the fact that people have seemed to have forgotten what happened the last time nationalism, populism, and authoritarianism surged in popularity about 80 years ago....
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80 years ago was hardly the last time that happened. Nationalism has more like a 15 year cycle.
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Yes. 15 years ago there was a huge rise in Nationalism in the US. That was my point.
Nationalism doesn't mean Hitler.
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You say nationalism and populism like they're bad things. Carried to the extreme, like you're implying, they can be. But in moderation, both can good for raising the national morale and having a leadership that is more responsive to the desires of the people.
Sure, small doses is fine, but when does it ever stop at small doses?
Re:Seems pretty clear to me (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe the fact that people have seemed to have forgotten what happened the last time nationalism, populism, and authoritarianism surged in popularity about 80 years ago....
It seems like the people who didn't get history majors in school remember that quite well, currently it's the history majors out wearing all black with faces covered, destroying property and basically doing bad brownshirt cosplay.
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Maybe the fact that people have seemed to have forgotten what happened the last time nationalism, populism, and authoritarianism surged in popularity about 80 years ago....
No more so then they forgot what happened when leftism went amuck around the same time. As it stands the left seems far more impact, in a negative way, on a day to day basis. After all they are the ones pushing censorship harder, force conformity at pain of being ostracized or worse, and completely own Universities by their own admission. Yet some defy reason and continue to fear the right. Very odd.
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History majors would not be looking there anyway (Score:2)
STEM and business tend to suffer a lot of tunnel vision
So do history majors - it's just that in tech the tunnel prevents them from seeing anything around them, with history majors they are prevented from seeing anything that happened past, say, Rome... and even then they get things badly wrong (see: all misconceptions around the "fall" of the Roman Empire).
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There is a pervasive mindset in CS majors I have run into that all that matters is coding. Far to often they jump right in and start barfing code down without understanding the real application. The result in major rip-up whenever a requirements doc is not bulletproof (and when are they ever?). Training them in school to design an overall approach, mockup the UI, get sign off from customers, then finally code it up would make a lot of projects go faster and better in the long run.
In school this shows up
Humanities have a place in education (Score:2)
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This is normal. In many fields, you begin to be able to barely understand stuff after 4 years of hard work, but you're at that point pretty far from literate. You hopefully are when you finish your PhD. As knowledge increases, it takes more time to get up to the state of the art.
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I'd say that's more true in STEM than in other fields, though the mitigating factor from a career standpoint is that "state of the art" is often a specialty with little broad application. A PhD in a STEM field can easily tag a person as over qualified for most jobs.
Why is this on Slashdot? (Score:2, Insightful)
The US perception of education is so broken its not about getting educated anymore it's about paying for a job placement. The conversation here is going to be nothing but how that imaginary pipeline is only served by technology focused disciplines. So what's the point of bringing it up at all as a conversation point. People here can't fathom why anyone would get a degree in history when there are bridges to be built and that's pretty fucking sad.
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People here can't fathom why anyone would get a degree in history when there are bridges to be built and that's pretty fucking sad.
We can fathom it just fine.
I personally was envious of Christopher Hitchens. He got a classical Oxford education in the humanities in the 1970s and it showed. His command of the language, his understanding of history, his argumentation ability, his critical thinking skills, his understanding of people, all top notch. Hearing him speak and argue extemporaneously was a joy, especially compared to listening to 99% of American "famous" people. American politicians especially have a hard time remembering the
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You kidding? Companies love hiring english majors. They can actually write and have people understand them. As for the minor in queer studies, queer employees probably appreciate having people around who know something about them. Given how much 'cultural fit' seems to favor young white men, having some other cultural knowledge in your department might 'fit' some talented people.
Nice post. You have the mandatory white male put down and promote the over representation of queers. Just add in something about minorities or a Trump put down and you should be the perfect liberal. Should you ever decide to look into statistics you will find that you're advocating prioritizing ~5% (queer et al) of the population over ~30% (white males) or 95% (straight people ie normal). Probably not the best idea in general though perhaps you're part of the 5% and favor self serving special treatment.
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Other than requiring classical Greek/Latin, things really have not changed that much for liberal arts education. The de-emphasis of Greek and Latin is to me a good thing. While those works are important to Western civilization, early 20th century institutions tended to emphasize them to the exclusion of all else.
Subjects like Queer or Gender studies are red herrings. People love to rag on them, but they simply aren't a big factor in today's educational landscape. For one, very few students actually major in
A sign of sound financial thinking (Score:2)
With the cost of degrees going up (and an economic depression in living memory), new students are focusing on education that can offer financial security and a stronger return on investment.
If anything, this is a positive sign for the future.
I think a lot of millenials got screwed by parents who suggested that any degree will work. Most teenagers need to be guided into good decision-making, and some parents failed to do that.
No Surprise (Score:2)
Students need a good paying job to repay huge students loans.
What does a history major say when greeting new people? "Welcome to McDonald's! Would you like fries with that?"
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Students need a good paying job to repay huge students loans.
Ah, the modern indentured servant, isn't it fun?
We don't need many historians (Score:2)
People don't care what historians tell them, so we don't need many of them. The masses can ignore what just a handful of them say as easily as many.
Yeah, well look... (Score:2)
Not everyone is independently rich enough to take useless degrees just for fun...
There is a place for everything. (Score:2)
"Scared by a seemingly treacherous labor market, since the downturn college students have turned away from the humanities and towards job-oriented degrees. It's not clear they are making the right decision."
Um, seemingly scared by a treacherous labor market? This is like saying hey after looking at the evidence I'm not sure the evidence is right. The market only needs so many humanity degrees and it appears before 2008 we had a glut. Seems like a simple market check. In this case the market is education
Coming soon to STEM... (Score:2, Insightful)
A good student with a humanities degree has very marketable skills, particularly in language and communication. They can identify and rebut bad arguments, make convincing and valid arguments, and even make bad arguments sound convincing. These are commercially valuable skills. The problem isn't the "uselessness" of the subject matter expertise they accrue. Many of the programmers I know studied physics or math. My friends who studied electrical engineering? Coders. They haven't designed a chip since th
Is this the 2008 crisis or Second Dotcom Bubble? (Score:2)
There's no getting around the fact that college is extremely expensive. It makes perfect sense to me that people entering college today, unless they have a full scholarship and a "free pass" like inheriting a family business later on, wouldn't be studying humanities. They're going to try to maximize their employability if they have the ability to do so. I majored in chemistry 20 years ago, and this was because I realized that I wasn't going to be able to handle the math in the engineering curriculum I was a
Re: Maybe itâ(TM)s the cost? (Score:2)
Humanities pays almost as much as science (not computer science). Why would anyone pay $30k/year for any degree? It really only makes sense if you're going into a highly lucrative career such as finance or becoming a doctor or lawyer. Even then, it's tough to argue it needs to be so expensive.
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Re: Maybe itâ(TM)s the cost? (Score:5, Insightful)
The plural of anecdote is not data. However, I will share my counter example. I paid $35k a year for a philosophy degree back when that was about as expensive as schools got. Then went to law school, got a masters in tax law, and started at a six-figure job right after graduation during the worst part of the recession. Yes, it was very expensive ~$200k all in, but I paid my loans back within 5 years. I wouldn't change a thing.
The problem is not majoring in humanities- it's going to school with no particular interest or plan for what you will do afterwards. I know people who majored in hard science and struggled afterwards. There's not much you can do with a B.S. in biology or physics career-wise, but nobody jokes about the uselessness of a biology degree. If you want to major in those subjects, you need a plan for what you will do afterwards.
Re: (Score:2)
Except a "highly lucrative career" doesn't always panned out. A friend spent $64K per year for four years to send his daughter to NYU to become a Broadway star. While she had minor roles in off Broadway productions during the summers, she never landed a role after graduation. She came back to home to work at Staples while working for free in local productions. She will be a star — someday.
A degree in the arts does not make you a more in-demand artist, or give you a leg up against other artists that have learned their trade on their own. It's a hard lesson to learn - it should probably be a disclaimer that every art student should sign.
need to have student loans with bankruptcy! (Score:2)
need to have student loans with bankruptcy!
Only way to get school cost under control
Re:Does this surprise anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Instead, in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, students seem to have shifted their view of what they should be studying—in a largely misguided effort to enhance their chances on the job market."
"Students aren’t fleeing degrees with poor job prospects. They’re fleeing humanities and related fields specifically because they think they have poor job prospects."
"If the whole story were a market response to student debt and the Great Recession, students would have read the 2011 census report numbering psychology and communications among the fields with the lowest median earnings and fled from them. Or they would have noticed that biology majors make less than the average college graduate, and favored the physical sciences. Most 18-year-olds are not econometricians, and those that are were probably going to major in economics anyway."
"But most of the differences are slight—well within the margins of error of the surveys."
I think this is where Schmidt really messes up. Maybe some students are still not avoiding some of the bad economic choices, but I think after story after story of people who go bankrupt from choosing the wrong college degree and suffering from the college debts and being worse off financially than if they had gotten no degree at all, I think students listened to those stories.
"The top-paying college majors earn $3.4 million more than the lowest-paying majors over a lifetime."
Source:
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew... [georgetown.edu]
https://www.forbes.com/sites/s... [forbes.com]
Millions of dollars seems more than a "slight" difference to me.
Schmidt left off a few important graphs: 1) The decline of humanities compared to the cost of college over time. 2) The average income by degree.
Re: (Score:2)
Not inferior but certainly not as useful.
Which is fine if that's your passion or you want to try to make it work, but don't then whine to everyone about the financial burden you agreed to to get your questionably useful degree ( which is a popular pasttime for humanity degree holders ).
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like you are bitter about not majoring in business.
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