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Linus Torvalds Reflects On How He's Been Hostile To Linux Community Members Over the Years, Issues Apology, and Announces He Will Be Taking Some Time Off (kernel.org) 985
On Sunday, Linus Torvalds spoke about the confusion he had regarding Maintainer's Summit, but more importantly, how this incident gave him a chance to realize "that I really had been ignoring some fairly deep-seated feelings in the community." In an email to the Linux Kernel Mailing List, Torvalds apologized for hurting people with his behavior over the years, and possibly driving some people "away from kernel development entirely." On that end, said Torvalds, "I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people's emotions and respond appropriately." He wrote: [...] It's one thing when you can ignore these issues. Usually it's just something I didn't want to deal with. This is my reality. I am not an emotionally empathetic kind of person and that probably doesn't come as a big surprise to anybody. Least of all me. The fact that I then misread people and don't realize (for years) how badly I've judged a situation and contributed to an unprofessional environment is not good. This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been both unprofessional and uncalled for. Especially at times when I made it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me. I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry.
The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely.I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people's emotions and respond appropriately.
Put another way: When asked at conferences, I occasionally talk about how the pain-points in kernel development have generally not been about the _technical_ issues, but about the inflection points where development flow and behavior changed. These pain points have been about managing the flow of patches, and often been associated with big tooling changes - moving from making releases with "patches and tar-balls" (and the _very_ painful discussions about how "Linus doesn't scale" back 15+ years ago) to using BitKeeper, and then to having to write git in order to get past the point of that no longer working for us. We haven't had that kind of pain-point in about a decade. But this week felt like that kind of pain point to me. To tie this all back to the actual 4.19-rc4 release (no, really, this_is_ related!) I actually think that 4.19 is looking fairly good, things have gotten to the "calm" period of the release cycle, and I've talked to Greg to ask him if he'd mind finishing up 4.19 for me, so that I can take a break, and try to at least fix my own behavior.
This is not some kind of "I'm burnt out, I need to just go away" break. I'm not feeling like I don't want to continue maintaining Linux. Quite the reverse. I very much *do* want to continue to do this project that I've been working on for almost three decades. This is more like the time I got out of kernel development for a while because I needed to write a little tool called "git". I need to take a break to get help on how to behave differently and fix some issues in my tooling and workflow.
And yes, some of it might be "just" tooling. Maybe I can get an email filter in place so at when I send email with curse-words, they just won't go out. Because hey, I'm a big believer in tools, and at least _some_ problems going forward might be improved with simple automation. [...]
The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely.I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people's emotions and respond appropriately.
Put another way: When asked at conferences, I occasionally talk about how the pain-points in kernel development have generally not been about the _technical_ issues, but about the inflection points where development flow and behavior changed. These pain points have been about managing the flow of patches, and often been associated with big tooling changes - moving from making releases with "patches and tar-balls" (and the _very_ painful discussions about how "Linus doesn't scale" back 15+ years ago) to using BitKeeper, and then to having to write git in order to get past the point of that no longer working for us. We haven't had that kind of pain-point in about a decade. But this week felt like that kind of pain point to me. To tie this all back to the actual 4.19-rc4 release (no, really, this_is_ related!) I actually think that 4.19 is looking fairly good, things have gotten to the "calm" period of the release cycle, and I've talked to Greg to ask him if he'd mind finishing up 4.19 for me, so that I can take a break, and try to at least fix my own behavior.
This is not some kind of "I'm burnt out, I need to just go away" break. I'm not feeling like I don't want to continue maintaining Linux. Quite the reverse. I very much *do* want to continue to do this project that I've been working on for almost three decades. This is more like the time I got out of kernel development for a while because I needed to write a little tool called "git". I need to take a break to get help on how to behave differently and fix some issues in my tooling and workflow.
And yes, some of it might be "just" tooling. Maybe I can get an email filter in place so at when I send email with curse-words, they just won't go out. Because hey, I'm a big believer in tools, and at least _some_ problems going forward might be improved with simple automation. [...]
RIP Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
It was a good run...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On the plus side, it will take many years before SJW incompetence will have destroyed the Linux kernel, and we may just see a serious fork that still values technological merits over everything else.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
On the plus side, it will take many years before SJW incompetence will have destroyed the Linux kernel, and we may just see a serious fork that still values technological merits over everything else.
Nope, because the first thing that's going to happen now is they'll start sifting through contributors social media accounts to find things that they can sanction them with against the CoC. You'll see them demand people link accounts, or give places they've posted on in order to "make the best community." Once that happens they'll demand that the person "do as they're told" or they'll launch a smear campaign and attempt to displace the person via the rules they've introduced. If they refuse, they'll use their social media circle to attack them via various leftwing publications and smear the person until they fall in line or quit. And they'll bring out the various smear allegations of rape, sexual assault, misogyny, women hater, and so on. They'll find people who are willing to accuse because their feelings got hurt.
The entire thing is like a cult, you've got everything from the in-group to the out-group, original sin, and the demand to bow to the one-true-god. At least if you were catholic you could buy an indulgence. The best you can hope for is that core contributors fork it and say fuck you to the entire thing, otherwise you're going to see it go stagnant and die, unless the community gives a resounding "fuck you" to the entire pile of garbage.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:4, Informative)
Nope, because the first thing that's going to happen now is they'll start sifting through contributors social media accounts to find things that they can sanction them with against the CoC. .
Don't be absurd. Most of the contributions are through companies, and for the benefit of companies. The level of SJW outrage is pretty minimal as there are almost no SJWs of the boogey-man definition people seem to have (as it is mostly a reds-under-the-bed fantasy), let alone involved in the Linux kernel.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:4, Informative)
Don't be absurd. Most of the contributions are through companies, and for the benefit of companies. The level of SJW outrage is pretty minimal as there are almost no SJWs of the boogey-man definition people seem to have (as it is mostly a reds-under-the-bed fantasy), let alone involved in the Linux kernel.
In my experience "companies" can lead to some pretty nasty outcomes with some or all parties acting like children especially in standards work.
Organizations can have unaligned agendas. Sometimes management will get involved and "lean" on technical people or attempt "ballot stuffing" resulting in unpleasant situations all around.
This naturally is rarely an issue when companies contribute code specific to their hardware or address bugs. There is rarely contention in these activities.
Where issues creep up is with design of certain abstractions / interfaces that could play to the strengths or weaknesses of certain vendors either providing more work for some or technical advantage due to architectural considerations. Often someone is already shipping product with it working one way and they will do or say anything to not have to be the one to change.
I've personally witnessed SJW bullshit fly as people (all employed and acting on behalf of corporations) attempt to try and score points by playing victim asserting the other guy hurt their feelings. The experiences are partially why I firmly believe the only policy should be one that maximizes tolerance. The less sharp objects for children to throw at each other the better.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
lol companies.
Right, because companies like Google are SJW-free.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:5, Funny)
If we had a Martin Luther for Linux then 93 of the items nailed to the door would be "Systemd is shit".
Re:RIP Linux (Score:4, Informative)
You sound like a Fox News viewer.
Fox news huh? How about right from another horses mouth. [golang.org] Don't worry, they ARE going after you on your other social media accounts.It's not like we don't have examples. [medium.com] Holy fuck! Look at that, we've got just another case for wrong think. [likeagirl.io] Oh, and this one too. Just to show that the Mike Pence rule applies too. [ibiblio.org]
Re:RIP Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
For some people, persecution fantasies are as close as they can get to being important. Be nice to them.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, the general feeling about a CoC is that it is a waste of time in an open source endeavor. You shouldn't *need* a CoC to disown a contributor for being a terrible person. For a company where having everything possible in order to legally justify a termination, I can see it, but an open source project should be able to discontinue its relationship with a contributor for any reason and not fear any reprisal.
So CoC *tends* to strike me as:
*adding needless bureaucracy to open source projects I explicitly prefer for having *less* bureaucracy than a professional setting
*At times adding to the someone having an inflated sense of contribution or resume boosting by mucking about with a project without giving any evidence one way or another about their actual relevant skill in the subject matter.
*As an extension to the above, I feel like it takes away from the accomplishments of people who have taken on real personal risk in the name of addressing social problems by using the same sorts of praise to describe people who work to slap CoCs on projects that have no evidence of conduct problems.
*Spawning witchhunts. It's one thing if you are a genuinely terrible person and it comes out and people drop you. It's another thing if someone ascribes meaning to your words/actions that were not intended, or makes a baseless accusation that cannot be proved or disproved and use that to torpedo someone.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
If you have a secret attending Neo-Nazi rallies and your friends and family find out you might well be disowned and disinherited.
Always with the "Nazi". What this translates to is: if you have political opinions that differ with mine, I'll call you a neo-Nazi and use that to justify my discrimination against you. By the way, communists killed far more than the Nazis ever did, but McCarthyism is looked upon as some black mark in history.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
And about to get better. Linus has been in denial for the last 20 years as to what his job is. However good he is as a cowboy coder, his essential role is management, and that requires people skills. Which he admits to needing improvement. Apparently some disapprove of his judgment on that front.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember an early article with Linus right when Linux was starting to get some stream. I remember one of his quotes "Like everyone else, I was the best programmer in the world" Linus does have a sense of introspection of his personality. However I think being king for too long, he may have let it slip. Which is why I welcome his statements, compared to the recent posts about him going onto some bizarre rants with developers with a different approach to a problem.
As a successful project lead, you need to say No to good ideas. Often because it will not fit into a long term plan, break compatibility, or just reduce the number of people available who can maintain such design. When you are in project management role, it is easy to net see these as good ideas that don't fit. Just as something that doesn't fit, and forget that other people cannot read your mind, and doesn't interpret the same long term goals you are trying to reach. But their ideas are often good ones. That Memory Management system optimized for a Smart Refrigerator may be a great design. But Linux isn't designed for smart Refrigerators, but Smart Refrigerators may be designed to run Linux, and that inefficiency isn't worth the effort in fixing.
Re:RIP Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Sadly, it'll probably be Lennart Poettering.
Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Any time someone decides to do something for self-improvement, it's a good thing. Good for you, Linus.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an amazing thing, on the level of atoning for the BitKeeper disaster by creating Git. But the real damage isn't done directly by Linus cussing from time to time, it's done by maintainers getting the idea that this is a cool way to behave. While it may be entertaining, it is not collegial. There is a reason that collegial practices are ultimately to the long term health and evolution of a community. Now that Linus got the memo, let's see how long it takes to filter through the maintainer community. This is one case where I view slavishly following Linus' lead as a good thing.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Interesting)
This is exactly it. I've been a subsystem maintainer. It's not really a fun place to be. I have to admit sometimes I was deliberately a jerk to be heard.
There are times where being blunt and even, to an extent, personal can be justified. It certainly often makes what you want to have happen now, happen. But you end up paying the penalty for it later-- when people are worried about embarrassment and don't mention their concerns; when you hear the same attitude in kind; when you lose valued contributors. So IMO better save that "ammo" for the true existential concerns and not make it business as usual for everyone's sake.
It's draining to be on the receiving end of the abrasive behavior, but I came to learn it's draining just to have to exhibit it yourself.
Re: Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
You can care about both, but at some point you have to choose between the two.
Why? Do you not believe it is possible to provide guidance to someone in order to improve their work without being disrespectful or hostile? Because I can assure you it is.
Re: Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
What's your focus - code quality, or feelings? You can care about both, but ***at some point you have to choose between the two.***
Eh, clearly a dichotomy. And a false one. So: false dichotomy.
Re: Self-Improvement (Score:4, Insightful)
It's quite possible to say: "This approach is a bad idea, and here's why...." followed by cogent reasoning, examples, performance profiling, etc. - without including any insults, name-calling, profanity, etc. Fostering an environment where a posture of mature professionalism is the norm does not mean settling for sub-par code. It means not settling for the best code produced by people who are willing to tolerate immature and unprofessional behavior. It also means not settling for a code-base that prioritizes the contributions of the stubborn, loud, and abrasive over those they drown out or drive away.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
He didn't do this because he had some mamby pamby warm fuzzy self realization. He is doing it because the people now in charge care more about feelings than code quality.
I don't see why you can't respect people's feelings and have great code quality. There's nothing wrong with having standards. And there's nothing wrong with treating people with respect either -- especially when you disagree with them.
To paraphrase Lao Tzu (the creator of Taoism) the worst leaders are hated, the next worst are feared, the better ones are loved, and the best are not seen at all.
Linus has created an admirable legacy for himself. I'm not surprised that, at this juncture, he sees becoming kinder and gentler as a way to preserve it.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see why you can't respect people's feelings and have great code quality. There's nothing wrong with having standards. And there's nothing wrong with treating people with respect either -- especially when you disagree with them.
Many people in these areas where meritocracy matters don't care if you're the biggest asshole in the world, that's why. The only care is that you're doing the absolute best at what you're doing. And if that isn't the case they want someone better. You should know that areas in IT, draw people who really have problems with social skills, understanding other people and so on. But, they're absolutely brilliant in thinking their way around a problem.
Ah but hell. Just look at the areas where "touchy feely non-meritocracy" bullshit has been pushed. People flee in droves, the projects, sometimes even companies fall apart in rapid succession because those core maintainers are driven out. The people that push CoC's are moral busybodies, and they're trying to become the gatekeepers of what's acceptable. They're no different then the people trying to push people out of hobbies, or demand that you censor music or video games because it hurts someones feelings. Try to dictate speech because it might hurt someones feelings. Try to dictate social or political discourse because it might hurt someones feelings.
Bullshit all the way around.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
"You should know that areas in IT, draw people who really have problems with social skills, understanding other people and so on. But, they're absolutely brilliant in thinking their way around a problem."
You see the contradiction in your words, don't you?
Problem: I'm managing a project bigger than what I could possibly achieve by myself.
Solution: Make other valuable people share my goals and work aligned to my vision to make it happen.
Now: you either brilliantly find the way from problem to solution or you don't.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Matthew Garrett is the guy who responded to concerns raised about a racketeering scandal (since exposed as a Qatari/Emirati spy ring) in the gaming community by deleting users' comments and replacing them with "fart fart fart"
Sarah Sharp accused Linus of physical intimidation because he told another dev over e-mail to "learn to shout at people" to reject bad code.
Both of them are prime examples of the toxic bullshit that needs to be forcibly removed from the open source community.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Respect is earned. Sometimes you need to tell someone their code fucking sucks and they should feel bad.
Pop quiz: who deserves respect?
Answer: everyone.
Respecting people and agreeing with them are two different things.
The essence of diplomacy is to be able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Respect is earned, not granted.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Please do not mistake courtesy for respect. Also, realize that _disrespect_ can also be earned.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Please do not mistake courtesy for respect.
Courtesy stems from a basic level of respect.
Also, realize that _disrespect_ can also be earned.
One way of doing that is to indulge in pointless semantic arguments.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
respect:"a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements."
We have plenty of words like being polite, courteous. We don't need to dilute the meaning of respect like it's a participation trophy.
We need *some* word to describe that concept that can't simply be given without being earned.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with you about 80%. Everyone deserves a *base* level of respect. People should be told their code fucking sucks, but they should not be told to feel bad about it.
But the *base* bit is what you're missing. Respect is a sliding scale. That scale slides depending on actions. *everyone* deserves to start with a base level of respect but their actions can quickly move them in both directions on that scale.
respect vs. dignity (Score:5, Insightful)
Pop quiz: who deserves respect?
Answer: everyone.
No, that would be dignity. Everybody starts with it and I can only be harmed by your own actions (i.e. by undignified behavior). Dignity is an unalienable human right.
With respect, it's the other way around: Nobody starts with it, it has to be earned and it depends on how other people view you and thus only indirectly depends on your own actions. You have no right for the respect of other people.
ignatius
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Self-Improvement (Score:5, Insightful)
Way to be disingenuous. You deleted the latter part of what I said:
There's nothing wrong with having standards. And there's nothing wrong with treating people with respect either -- especially when you disagree with them.
People who can't measure up should not have their contributions included in a project. But there's no reason to berate people who make good-faith contributions. Just kindly tell them it's not good enough, explain why, and suggest ways to improve. Is that so hard?
Re: Self-Improvement (Score:4, Insightful)
Is that so hard?
Based on the comments I'm seeing, apparently it's quite a challenge.
Re:Self-Improvement (Score:4, Interesting)
Great question.
I gather the key thing is if a person realises that their perceptions are constructs, albeit very useful and productive constructs, but constructs nonetheless, and so you start to see the utility and also the problems, created by the constructs/perceptions.
Introspection shows you what you are thinking, whereas construct-awareness shows you that what you are thinking is just a model and you might adopt other models in other situations.
Good! (Score:4, Funny)
Wow. Good job, Linus. Hope to see you come back with a much better attitude!
Even Linus eventually realizes that people respond better when you aren't a raging asshole. Too bad many Slashtards can't also come to the same realization.
Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
Linus' attitude isn't the problem, at least not directly. If you go review his legendary rants, he almost never attacks a person, he attacks behaviors. He attacks stupid things that people do. The real problem is when maintainers emulate this behavior, but miss that detail about not attacking people.
Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you go review his legendary rants, he almost never attacks a person... He attacks stupid things that people do.
Yep.
And problems ensue when someone on the receiving end automatically assumes that "This is a stupid thing to do" equals "You're a stupid person", which I don't believe is (usually!) his intention at all.
Re: Good! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not talking about me. Talking about somebody far smarter than me making sure I don't checkin terribad code.
April fools? (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought April fools was, you know, in April
In all seriousness, if this is actually true, good on him. It takes a big person to admit being an asshole. Takes a bigger person to actually change. Time will tell I guess.
Hold my beer (Score:5, Funny)
It takes some humility to admit one's deficiencies (Score:5, Insightful)
And yes, some of it might be "just" tooling. Maybe I can get an email filter in place so at when I send email with curse-words, they just won't go out. Because hey, I'm a big believer in tools, and at least _some_ problems going forward might be improved with simple automation.
It's heartening to hear that Linus is getting more self-aware. Another option he might consider is having someone else give his emails a quick review to ensure the tone aligns with his desired response. Sometimes the words in your head just don't sound the same when read by others.
Re:It takes some humility to admit one's deficienc (Score:5, Insightful)
This is Linus figuring out something that's been obvious to outsiders for a long time: sometimes he can be kind of a dick. That's not 100% bad, and it certainly doesn't make him a bad person. And on the scale of dickishness, it's not like he's that far out on the tail end.
But now he sees it, and it's made him ask a really smart question: is this really how I want to be?
There's lots of dickish people who are basically good people who just can't grasp why people react negatively to being treated abrasively or disrespectfully. And to be fair there are a lot of unreasonably sensitive people out there, about as many as there are unreasonably dickish people. But when most people have a problem with you, for example if they have to treat your behavior as a special case, then problem isn't most people. It's you.
Re: (Score:3)
It's Linus's life, and more to the point Linus's job, which I suspect he may understand better than we do.
Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about it (Score:5, Insightful)
However, there are still some people that should just be told to straight up piss off however since dealing with their crap just isn't worth your time. They can always fork the project if they really want to do things their own way.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:4, Insightful)
but I think the overall approach is a good one and that Linux would not be as good as it is today if he let substandard code into the system. Hopefully he's able to keep the same tough stance on quality while being able to communicate it more effectively.
Why do people act like a project would be forced to take in substandard code just because the maintainers aren't allowed to be assholes? Constructive criticism and mentoring can be used just as well in place of being a dickish aspie.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people act like a project would be forced to take in substandard code just because the maintainers aren't allowed to be assholes? Constructive criticism and mentoring can be used just as well in place of being a dickish aspie.
One person with high standards is another person's "dickish aspie."
One person's constructive criticism is another's micro-aggression, sexism, racism, or whatever negative-label du jour used as a club. Projects aren't forced to take in substandard code but some projects have experienced severe losses by trying your approach and giving an inch. Take firefox as an example.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really. There's a pretty clear dividing line.
"This code is bad for technical reasons X, Y, and Z. I'm not accepting this until this is fixed", is plain and simple.
"Also, you're a fucking moron and should have been retroactively aborted" -- now this is absolutely non-technical and unnecessary.
We can have the first and not the second with no problem whatsoever.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes when someone who shouldn't screw up does so with blatant disregard for the priorities of the project, it's useful to flame them to remind other people NOT to do the same thing.
One example is from about six years ago when Linus reminded [lkml.org] everyone very crisply that one doesn't change userspace APIs willy nilly and then blame the applications that were broken by the change. I'm pretty sure that his response reinforced in many developers' minds that this was simply unacceptable and reminded them far more effectively than an unemotional purely technical observation would have.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
One example is from about six years ago when Linus reminded [lkml.org] everyone very crisply that one doesn't change userspace APIs willy nilly and then blame the applications that were broken by the change. I'm pretty sure that his response reinforced in many developers' minds that this was simply unacceptable and reminded them far more effectively than an unemotional purely technical observation would have.
IF anything, he should have worded that message more forcefully. It's that important.
Re: (Score:3)
It is not mistreating someone to call them out for a serious error. A high contrast response is sometimes necessary to get their (and other's) attention and to communicate the severity of the infraction. The example I gave wasn't just "because Linus can" - it was a relevant message communicated at a fairly appropriate volume. Myself, I wouldn't have sent the message quite that way but that doesn't mean it was wrong. Everyone on the project at that point was well aware of Linus' personality and bluntness and
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
For starters, a computer acts for more like a "dickish aspie" than Linus ever will.
Furthermore, actual aspies make good code testers, and often good programmers.
Also, a hostile environment may actually be preferable, because it keeps the lowest common denominator higher.
Finally, I have to say there's a bit of irony in you describing Linus in a way that denigrates the autistic, while Linus himself has not used criticism in such a bigoted way. By the very notions behind such community conduct standards, you need to take a break before he does.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people act like a project would be forced to take in substandard code just because the maintainers aren't allowed to be assholes?
Because we've all worked at companies where substandard code is routine due to a culture of passive-aggressive nonsense.
It's very easy for people to get lazy and for code to just get worse and worse if people are not called out over letting standards slide.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a balance. Too much of either flame or light-treading can lead to problems. The most difficult situations are where there is a mismatch of culture among individuals. i.e. where remarks that are not actually offensive are mistakenly taken as such due to poor wording and because people are expecting fire or where softening the language around a critical issue leads to it being not taken seriously by those expecting more fire.
As far as this case goes specifically, I have always had the impression that Linus was a little on the flame-y side but much in the same way that all drivers in San Francisco are jerks -- if you don't drive that way you're actually more likely to cause an accident because everyone is expecting it. But honestly I don't read enough lkml to know for sure. There is a line between flame and abuse, and if that gets crossed too often then there are problems.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:4, Insightful)
Once again, you are confusing high standards with negativity. That generally happens with people who are a lot less smart than they think they are.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people act like a project would be forced to take in substandard code just because the maintainers aren't allowed to be assholes?
Because I've watched it happen. When everyone knows daddy is going to scold you if you screw up, you try really hard not to screw up. Quality stays high.
The alternative is people know they won't get scolded, so they not only commit shit to start with, but then they want to debate how bad the shit stinks when there's push back. Then they throw a tantrum when the merge is denied. "I worked a whole hour on this. I spent my time and effort!" Before long, they've worn down the maintainers who get tired of their shit and leave for another project. The gates of hell open onto the project at this point. Shit begins to flood in and nobody can stop it.
This is especially bad on large projects like Linux. Everyone will push bullshit commits trying to get "Contributes to Linux Kernel" on their resume.
Linux is officially done. I'm already looking for an alternative.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:4, Insightful)
Except most people don't enjoy working in a culture of fear for very long. It's likely to drive away a lot of people who would otherwise contribute quality code.
Re:Be honest and tough, but don't be a dick about (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a Zen story which bears on this.
A farmer had a wife who was so tight-fisted she never let him spend any money, even money he needed to run the farm. So he told the Zen master his problem and the master told the farmer to bring his wife to him.
As soon as the wife walked in the door, the master shoved his fist right in front of her face. "What would you say if my hand was always stuck like THIS?" he demanded.
"I'd say you'd had a deformed hand," the wife said.
"And what would you say," the master continued, shoving his open palm in her face, "if my hand was always stuck like THIS?"
"I'd say you had a different kind of deformity."
"Well, then," the master said. "You seem to know everything you need to."
Now my natural disposition is to be accommodating, but over the years I have learned sometimes you have to be a total intransigent bastard. Being a bastard shouldn't be opening move, and being nice shouldn't be the only move you have. You need to adapt the needs of the circumstance.
Does this mean... (Score:5, Funny)
Does this mean that "git" may be renamed in the near future?
Re:Does this mean... (Score:4, Insightful)
The lede is buried (Score:5, Insightful)
The real news here isn't that Linus decided to get some therapy.
The real news is that Linux, the project, adopted the "Contributor's Covenant" code of conduct and thereby acknowledged SJW ideological supremacy. The CC is an SJW vehicle promulgated by Coraline Ada and a related group of activist malcontents. While the CC appears on the surface to be a call of civility, it's actually the tip of a very long and exsanguatory anti-meritocracy spear, one that ultimately seeks to elevate high-verbal-IQ non-technical politics-playing San-Francisco-residing cliques of social justice advocates into positions of recognition and authority in the free software world and beyond. If you write code and you're good at it, these people are a direct threat to your status, your hobby, and your livelihood, because if these people get their way, your technical excellence becomes secondary to their wokeness.
These people also admit, quite openly, that they use out-of-project CoC enforcement as a means to forbid FOSS contributors from supporting certain political positions. Check the HN thread. They're gleeful. They have a scalp and they're showing it to everyone.
This is a very curious move from Linus. He's previously been so adamantly anti-tone-policing, anti-SJW, and pro-meritocracy that I can't help but wonder if he is in fact being blackmailed or coerced in some fashion. Back in 2015, ESR reported [ibiblio.org] that the tech-SJW community was attempting to frame Linux in some fashion. My personal hunch is that Linus got complacent about operational security and eventually got caught in an SJW trap. I don't fault him. If you or I were put in a position of swearing fealty to Coraline Ada or being forced by a Twitter mob into giving up maintainership of a project that we'd worked our whole lifetime to force into existence, we might also choose to drop to our knees, kiss the ring, and get woke.
Of course it won't work, since blackmailers are never contented. But in the heat of the moment, it doesn't feel that way.
This is a very sad day.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Informative)
these people are a direct threat to your status, your hobby, and your livelihood, because if these people get their way, your technical excellence becomes secondary to their wokeness
An LLVM contributor left the project [slashdot.org] in part because he would have been required to sign documents to attend an LLVM conference. It is very much the case that the CoC crowd would rather exclude any amount of talent then tolerate a dissenter. You're either 1000% on board with the "high-verbal-IQ non-technical politics-playing San-Francisco-residing cliques of social justice advocates" or you're out.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like a variant of totalitarianism to me. "You are either with us or against us." No, thanks.
The good news is that every project compromised by these people will eventually go down the drains.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:4, Funny)
The good news is that every project compromised by these people will eventually go down the drains.
Well I guess we can say that this year won't be the year of the linux desktop. If anything, it might be the year that linux dies.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an incredibly complex and powerful amount of code, it's extremely reliable and stood the test of time, it's used world wide in a variety of massive enterprise services and tiny little simple boxes under peoples desks, on their wrists or whatever.
It got there due to quality code, not colour, not race, not gender, not sex, not any of that, simply due to nerds being nerds and ignoring politics.
Now, the tribalism (and make no mistake it's tribalism) of identity politics has finally managed to burrow into it.
Nah this is actually a pretty bad thing.
Re: (Score:3)
It don't exactly get into SJW territory.
Read it and compare to the FreeBSD one to see how a SJW CoC looks like.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Informative)
The real news here isn't that Linus decided to get some therapy.
The real news is that Linux, the project, adopted the "Contributor's Covenant" code of conduct and thereby acknowledged SJW ideological supremacy. The CC is an SJW vehicle promulgated by Coraline Ada and a related group of activist malcontents. While the CC appears on the surface to be a call of civility, it's actually the tip of a very long and exsanguatory anti-meritocracy spear,
When I first read this, I knew nothing of Coraline Ada and so I figured the AC was full of shit. I decided I would do a little searching to prove the AC wrong. One of the first things I came across was her website, PostMeritocracy.org, which contains The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto [meritocracy.org]
I apologize for having doubted you, AC.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Insightful)
I apologize for having doubted you, AC.
Doubt is good. You found out what other people are saying as true, you saw the evidence of a person trying to be a gatekeeper and gain control over something you see as important. Remember github and how they had a "Meritocracy is all" type stance? Notice that after the new CEO came into play, not only did they toss that but ramped the new policies to 11, banning people for using the wrong words because it "might offend" someone?
Well, let me welcome you to the culture war. Enjoy getting tossed into the pit with the rest of us, there are no dues, there is no secret meetings, there is no secret handshake. Your own post makes you a target because you're on the wrong side of the issue.
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Informative)
Look closer:
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v4.19-rc4/Documentation/process/code-of-conduct.rst
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/8a104f8b5867
MOD PARENT UP [Re:The lede is buried] (Score:4, Interesting)
Look closer:
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v4.19-rc4/Documentation/process/code-of-conduct.rst
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/8a104f8b5867
Holy crap, it does sound like there's something creeping into the core kernel process here.
I think Linus has been a total dick in the past as well, and I think he could have made his arguments perfectly well with less flowery language. It did make me think twice about going into kernel contribution areas. However this is *not cool* and even hearing the name of Coraline Ada in this story makes me shudder (do your own research on this person, seriously). This sort of quiet addition to a project of a CoC is exactly the sort of thin edge of the wedge that gets projects hijacked.
People need to stand up and say they're strong enough to take being called names, if the technical reasons are justified. It ain't pretty but ultimately we want the code to work, right?
Re:The lede is buried (Score:5, Informative)
Yes! How terrible that a project adopt a code of conduct where people are asked to be courteous and treat others with respect!
So is that the part where they attack people for holding opinions, political opinions and views that don't conform to the CoC's gatekeepers? Plenty of evidence over the last 2 years of SJW's going after a persons job, family, and so on for say supporting Trump, being a conservative, speaking out against antifa, disliking Trudeau, being against Merkel, speaking out against illegals, having no desire to suppress speech or restrict protected freedoms for example.
Oops, we've apparently decided it's not a theory and a fact! Linus has been captured by the SJWs!! Someone rally an army of obnoxious politically incorrect men to save him!!!
So we don't have previous examples in history where people who hold particular points of view aren't pushed out of their own companies? Wait...we do. And we don't have examples of SJW's going after people to financially ruin a person? Well whatja know we do. And we sure don't have any examples of SJW's claiming a person is sexist/misogynist/racist/homophobic/etc to get them removed from a job. Oh...wait...we do. And we sure don't have past examples of SJW's then hounding a person in a new job to get them fired. Oh well...fuck, we do. And we sure don't have any proof that SJW's claim meritocracy is a tool of the patriarchy. Oh well...son of a bitch, we do too. And we sure don't have any evidence of progressive sites then latching on to these cases, and trying to shame the person for holding views they don't agree with. Man I'm sure drawing blanks here, so many sites haven't done this. And we sure don't have any examples of SJW's making shit up to get people fired, or taking things out of context to get people fired, or quote mining to get people fired.
And there's absolutely no shortage of feminists, race baiters, and sjw's shaking down companies if they don't bow to their demands. Or suddenly coming up with "diversity problems" and it suddenly being all over the news. Oh...wait...
And we sure don't have cases where sjw's and feminists falsely accuse a person of sexual assault or rape to try and ruin them for their own gain. And we sure don't have a long list of sjw's, feminists, and progressives latching on to #metoo to ruin a persons life either, even when the evidence shows otherwise with claims of "well he might have done it anyway." And we sure don't have examples from #metoo of women lying, then sjw's, progressives, and feminist circling the wagons and saying "you should believe all women anyway! She did it for the right reasons."
Oh...boy! It's a giant three ring circus of non-meritocratic and shitty people abusing what some people thought was a good idea, and ruining everything all the way down.
Not the touchy feely type? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who would have thought he wasn't the overly emotional touchy feely type?
Being that way is OK. It is time that the touchy feely types stop trying to force those that aren't into what they think we should be. It is the same problem as extroverts vs introverts where introverts often find extrovert behavior out right offense but won't say anything about it.
Maybe the group that has the longest list of accomplishments can tell the other group they are wrong.
Re: (Score:3)
Sounds like something happened... (Score:4, Interesting)
Freddie Mercury never fixed his teeth (Score:5, Interesting)
Freddie Mercury never fixed his teeth [wordpress.com] because they thought it would negatively affect his singing [reddit.com]. I'm not a kernel dev but I sure have used, and appreciate (including supporting them monetarily) their efforts over the years. I hope this doesn't dispel the magic.
Re:Freddie Mercury never fixed his teeth (Score:4, Informative)
Linus's teeth are fine, don't worry.
RE: Linus (Score:5, Insightful)
Balance, empathy, and coding (Score:5, Insightful)
(Cross posted from twitter here: https://twitter.com/gehrehmee/... [twitter.com])
Just read Linus' LKML email that he's taking some time off kernel development to "get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately".
Good on him. It's an example many of us in tech can learn.
I especially like how he compares this time off kernel development to his time he took off to go work on git. It's important to collaborate with your community, to be a *good person* -- but it's also important from a productivity and efficiency angle.
Investing energy into one's tooling, whether emotional awareness, social skills, communication, collaboration, verbal, written word, or tech/code mechanisms, is critical for anyone trying to be a balanced person that delivers the most they can at the things they care about.
Investing energy into one's tooling, whether emotional awareness, social skills, communication, collaboration, verbal, written word, or tech/code mechanisms, is critical for anyone trying to be a balanced person that delivers the most they can at the things they care about.
This kind of *investment* is all too easily and all too often looked down upon.
It should be celebrated. It should be taught (in post-secondary settings even!). It should be expected.
It should be normal.
Re: (Score:3)
Code quality will suffer if the ones pushing the CoC down his throat are now in charge.
Re: (Score:3)
Prove it. Show an ounce of scientific study to prove that claim. Otherwise your statement has no more validity than a horoscope prediction.
Re:Balance, empathy, and coding (Score:4, Interesting)
For those of us not familiar with node.js, what happened? I avoided node.js because I didn't want YAPM on my Debian install. Some of the headlines about npm installing malware, breaking half the web and rewriting directory permissions have convinced me that it was a dumpster fire and my reluctance to use it was well advised.
I'm just curious how this relates to the present subject (and nothing I know about it likely matters in this regard.)
Re:Balance, empathy, and coding (Score:4, Insightful)
Linus's responses were appropriate throughout most of Linux's history. How do we know? They were effective, and that's what counts. If he had wasted time understanding people's emotions, the Linux kernel wouldn't have succeeded.
And what kind of successes can you point to to demonstrate the effectiveness of your approach? Where is the evidence that this "investment" pays off?
#MeToo comes to Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know if Linus is getting in front of something or if he's truly seen "the error of his ways" but this sure seems like a re-calibration of behavior to fit the "new normal" of PC. Age can do that, sure. But one has to wonder if maybe we're reached the point in our society where the collective opinion of the moment is overpowering the individual. History shows that doesn't end well.
Linux has been co-opted. (Score:4, Interesting)
I have a bad feeling about this (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I know Linus has only ever exploded at people who have ignored previous warnings/questions about their code or behaviour.
And basing your code of conduct off someone who is openly anti-meritocracy is a real red flag for any technical project. The old CoC was just fine; enforcement perhaps could have been better. Some people here are asking "Why do you think that he'll stop caring solid engineering just because he stops being an asshole", but the new CoC includes requirements that are not at all technical nor are even normal conduct in real life (who do you know who never uses sexual swear-words?) so, assuming that someone falls foul of these sort of fluffy-unicorn requirements the project may no longer have the option to accept the best solution because its author is not acceptable.
No one is suggesting that any project should accept unrelated abuse from one dev to another, even from Linux. But it must accept that actions which affect the project's quality will, if continued over time, eventually attract a strong response from the guy in charge. And, yeah, that might include swearing and telling you that you're not the centre of the universe and that you have become a problem. Dry your lamps and shape up.
The Linux kernel is a construction site where getting things wrong can literally kill someone someone down the line; everyone involved should be wearing metaphorical hard-hats.
That's what happens... (Score:4, Funny)
... when you don't pick a strong password.
Linus is older, and Linux has won. (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux is undisputably, the most important kernel in the world. It is no longer in *startup* phase, and now weirdly part of the establishment. It isn't cool for the establishment to be cruel.
Re:Was sweet while it lasted (Score:5, Insightful)
Counter argument: Was he a dick to competent people who screwed up and fixed their error? Or just to the ones who screwed up then tried to justify breaking the rules and he slammed the point home?
I suspect you'll find that the latter is much more common in LKML.
In any case the core point is that if you want a truly quality product, regardless of the industry, goals and results take precedence over "feelings" in any form or fashion.
Re:Was sweet while it lasted (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree with the above poster.
There are some developers that need to be called out harshly just to keep them from pushing their agenda. The entitled systemd folks come to mind.
Give 'em hell, Linus!
Re:Was sweet while it lasted (Score:4, Interesting)
Why do you falsely presume that he'll stop caring solid engineering just because he stops being an assholish aspie? The two are not mutually exclusive in any shape. Instead of being a dick, he can provide constructive criticism and mentoring instead to motivate people to actually want to continue working on the kernel.
Yeah, I agree. I had a point well into my career where I was in a meeting and someone was being an asshole about something, and I realized ... fuck, I've been that exact same asshole. I decided at that point to work on it, and I think I improved. Somewhat. [Having kids helped a ton with training me to pause before speaking my mind.]
I think it's perfectly fine to be an asshole when that is appropriate to the situation. Sometimes you have to use strong language to get a point across. The problem is when you're being an asshole without intending to, which can really screw up the tenor of a project. I don't mean "Oh, boo hoo, someone quit because their feelings", I mean "Yeah, we decided to switch platforms because everytime we logged a valid bug with a repro, they were fucking assholes about it."
And, of course, there's always the problem where you're being an asshole by default, which probably means something is seriously wrong and you need to get some help.
Re:Was sweet while it lasted (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh? The project recently adopted the Contributor's Covenant which was the brainchild of Coraline Ada, queen SJW. Of course bringing up SJW is appropriate in this context. The trend is unmistakable and the slippery slope has begun toward the fall of the high kernel standards.
Re: (Score:3)
But I think if only enforced within the scope of a project, it still seems reasonable...
Re:Was sweet while it lasted (Score:5, Insightful)
That entire passage screams SJW. Especially the "harassment-free experience" part. The problem is, that regardless of intentions, the measurement for that statement is purely subjective. It leaves open the idea that if an over-sensitive person has their feeling hurt, they've been harassed. Once the poison of such a statement gets traction, everyone has to be overly cautious and always looking over their shoulder. It's no longer a "open and welcoming environment" for most, except for the over bearing SJW types that believe they own the definition of what's acceptable. Anyone that doesn't adhere, or shows some natural human flaw, becomes harassed by the SJWs that claim to be against harassment.
Re:Was sweet while it lasted (Score:4, Insightful)
Somehow people seem to think it's only possible to enforce high code standards by treating other people like crap. Which is really weird.
Re: (Score:3)
Everybody who is good at anything even remotely requiring brains is on the spectrum.
Re: (Score:3)
Typical new "all inclusive" inclusion:
#include "terribly_written_header_file_that_identifies_as_well_thought_out.h"
Re:About time! (Score:4, Informative)
It's obvious that he must be punished. And here in the lands of Linux, there is only one punishment [youtube.com] for hurting people's feelings; after that punishment is meted out, you may deal with him as you like.