Tesla Model 3 Earns Five-Star Crash Safety Rating From NHTSA (jalopnik.com) 214
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has awarded the Tesla Model 3 with a five-star safety rating -- the highest possible score. This means that every car Tesla has built has earned a five-star rating. Jalopnik reports: The NHTSA tests cover three primary categories: Frontal Crash, Side Crash, and Rollover, and the Model 3 received the highest ratings in all categories. For some categories, it's easy to understand why Teslas do so well. Rollover resistance, for example, makes sense for cars that carry most of their weight at the very bottom, in the batteries sandwiched in the Tesla's chassis design. Other reasons for the remarkable crash safety may be that, without the need for a heavy chunk of metal as a drivetrain, effective and large crumple zones can be designed in, front and rear. The NHTSA has released videos of their frontal collision test, side pole collision test, and side collision test, for those who like watching these sort of things.
Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:5, Insightful)
In other stories, people have scoffed at the notion model 3 cars could possibly be more popular than luxury electric models coming out.
Yet here we have another reason beyond just top acceleration numbers why people may want to get a Tesla rather than something else...
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Re:Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:4, Informative)
(This is not to denigrate Tesla's safety engineering. The lead safety engineer at BMW gave a guest lecture at my graduate structural engineering class. To our surprise, safety is dead last in the design process. First the artist designs the basic shape of the car. Then all the engineers design the mechanical and electrical components to fit within the artist-defined shape. Finally the safety engineer is given a budget of (say) 25 kg of steel, and told to add reinforcement to make the car pass the government and insurance institute safety tests. So all it would take to design a safer car is to move the safety engineer earlier in the design process, which I believe Tesla has done.)
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It's the same reason that a car gets a front page news story when it catches fire, or crashes only when it's a Tesla.
Re:Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:4, Informative)
Overall five stars yes, but not all 5 stars.
There are [only] two other cars that get rated as high: The Toyota Camry and Subaru Forester
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkiley5/2018/09/20/can-tesla-model-3s-five-star-nhtsa-rating-change-elon-musks-bad-month/#42426833103b
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How does a comment like this get a "4, Informative" rating? The reason that it's news is that it has received a 5-star safety rating in EVERY CATEGORY rather than just an overall 5-star category (which is generally achieved with ratings lower than 5-stars in several categories). I mean.. If you're going to complain about it being news all over, it would be a good idea to read one sample rather than just the Slashdot summary (which of course also misses the point, but that's to be expected).
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Funny story I looked it up,
Since you used BMW as an example I checked of the 522 BMWs that NHTSA has data for on their website only 18 received 5 stars in frontal crash ratings....and all of those 18 vehicles only got 4 stars on their rollover ratings, i believe they were all SUVs.
so no, apparently it's not all that easy to get 5 stars in frontal, side, and rollover crash ratings
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At $49k for the cheapest Tesla you can reasonably expect to have delivered to you, the Model 3 is a luxury car.
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At $49k for the cheapest Tesla you can reasonably expect to have delivered to you, the Model 3 is a luxury car.
Sorry bud, it ain't 1975 anymore. Things change. $50k gets you a basic sedan or minivan with some nice options.
Bull.
Fucking.
Shit.
A brand new Volkwagen Jetta with all the options is still less than $32K. If you're paying over fifty thousand for a "basic sedan," you're a moron and the salesperson is a thief.
Tesla has a ~20% profit margin (Score:5, Informative)
Hey, when you sell cars below cost
Well we all know AC's lie, but by how much?
Here's a good example of a real-life measurement you can use to determine how much fabrication goes into the average AC statement, because Tesla has around a 20% profit margin per car - 5x higher than Ford [cleantechnica.com]. Kind of a lot different than "losing money on every car".
Hey, who you gonna believe, a smooth-talking AC where *certainly* has nothing against Tesla, or your lying Ars?
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They technically lose money on every car in terms of taxation as a result of depreciation of capital assets which is pretty good for manufacturing, plant, buildings, as well as design and development deductions which run pretty high. So it is logical that a new manufacturer for tax purposes will pretty much lose money for the first decade. You as an individual, yeah, nahh, you gumby, they cooked the books to favour them and screw you. They tax deduct the direction of the wind, generally out of their backsid
Gross margin != Profit Margin (Score:3)
Here's a good example of a real-life measurement you can use to determine how much fabrication goes into the average AC statement, because Tesla has around a 20% profit margin per car
You are talking about Gross Margin which is NOT the same thing as Profit Margin. Gross Margin is the sales revenue minus the parts and labor directly used to build the vehicle. It does not include engineering, sales, marketing, R&D, financing, interest, taxes, overhead, and a multitude of different costs. Profit Margin only comes after all those other costs are taken into account.
That said, Tesla's Gross Margin is comparable to that of Toyota and FAR less than that of luxury brands like Ferrari (arou
Re:Tesla has a ~20% profit margin (Score:5, Informative)
but include the REQUIRED SG&A expenses
Totally. When Tesla runs a welding robot faster, that totally makes them build and fill a new office building!
SG&A is not part of gross margin for a reason: it does not rise in correlation with production volumes as a production line spools up. Increasing production rates on a line lowersCOGS, by decreasing hardware depreciation. Without refining of proction processes, labour costs increases linearly with volumes (labour being only a fraction of COGS), but refining production processes - something that happens every month as a new line matures - decreases labour. SG&A, by contrast, scales at a far-below-linear relationship to production volumes. Stamping out panels faster doesn't mean that you need to hire a new janitor. Simplifying how to attach two components with less labour doesn't mean you have to hire a new webmaster. Reducing interruptions in the paint shop doesn't mean you have to hire a new director of accounting. Heck, should we even bother talking about the SG&A expense that is operating the supercharger network - formerly a (expensive) loss leader, but presently converting to a profit centre as Model 3 volumes expand, and for which the vast majority ofchargers (aka those in less densely populated areas) are able to vastly increase their service volumes without any capital expenses?
I also love the fact that you never mention the fact that Tesla took a SG&A hit in Q2 in order to reduce its SG&A expenses from Q3 onward, but let's not worry our little heads about that!
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A lot of those expenses are things like improving the service centres to cope with the demand. There were already ridiculous delays getting parts and basic repairs done, six months not being unusual for things like accident damage. Just staying still required a huge investment and this week they announced even more to try to make the system reasonably responsive.
Re:Tesla has a ~20% profit margin (Score:4, Informative)
That's not SG&A, that's "Services and Other". Services and Other cost Tesla a net $116M in Q2, vs. revenue of $4B, aka eating up less than 3% of their gross margin.
6 months is highly unusual. Of course, you can always find some body shop somewhere for any brand that has hundreds of thousands of vehicles on the road that takes an inordinate amount of time. That doesn't make that "normal". Want to make there be zero cases of abnormal crash repair times (for shorts to find out about and share widely every chance they get) when you don't control the body shops? Good luck with that.
S & X repairs from accidents are usually several weeks to a month. But these are much lower volume vehicles than the 3. In the Model 3 Owners Survey, the average repair took under a week. Speaking of Model 3 repairs... [youtube.com]
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Maybe they need to spend more than 3% so people aren't waiting weeks/months for something that would be done in a day with any other car. And this is before all these tent Teslas start falling to bits.
More complicated than that (Score:2)
SG&A is not part of gross margin for a reason: it does not rise in correlation with production volumes as a production line spools up.
Accountant here. That's not true. Some SG&A expenses very much do correlate with production volumes. For a simple example the water bill of a plant generally is not included in Cost of Goods Sold but is (usually) in SG&A because it's too hard to divvy up to specific activities. But it will change with production volumes because more production = more water usage. Facts like this are very common in P&L statements and it is incorrect to assume all variable costs are in the gross margin and al
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I'm also an accountant[1] and in my experience it not only goes in COGS, it comprises almost all of it.
[1] Currently at MillerCoors, previously at Anheuser-Busch.
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Not at Tesla, their SG&A has a much more linear relationship with growth. Their business model doesn't scale. They tried to run it like a Silicon Valley startup, hoping that early losses would turn into profits as the company grew, but instead only losses and debts grew. Car manufacturing is capital intensive, if you want to make twice as many cars you need twice the hardware, it's not like an app you just throw on t
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And you know I've called you many times on this. The fact that you refuse to read what I wrote doesn't change any of this. You keep trying to conflate the costs of scaling up for the construction and operation of a brand new model line with per-unit costs, which is an absurdity, contradicting all tenets of manufacturing. And I'll repeat: "I'm looking forward to hearing where Tesla has
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** personnel. Hate how after all this time you can't edit posts...
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> Hate how after all this time you can't edit posts...
I actually love it. I tend to re-send corrections on platforms that offer editing. It's humanizing to say "Hey, I screwed up. I'm cognizant enough to fix it too".
That said, why are you feeding the trolls? I dismissed the entire thread based on their sig.
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At some point arguments are just silly, and it's better just to trade the stock. I remember all the same arguments about Amazon, then it turned out AWS was actually profitable.
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All this talk and yet SG&A continues to scale linearly with revenue. You can argue all you want but the numbers are staring you in the face.
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And we're gonna start believing posters when they're not Anonymous Cowards....Or at least taking their posts with a grain of salt instead of a bag. Seriously, it takes 5 minutes to sign up. If you can't be arsed to do that, or have a vested interest in staying 100% anonymous, chances are anything you post is garbage meant to sway opinion instead of real info.
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Model 3 had a positive margin in Q2, and is expected to have a 15% margin this quarter - higher than the industry average.
Why yes, let's totally take R&D, SG&A, capex, etc on a line that last quarter was operating at a small fraction of its design volumes and pretend like they increase linearly with vehicle volume! Because that's totally a reasonable thing to do. Let's also ignore that last quarter they A) soaked restructuring expense
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Model 3 had a positive margin in Q2, and is expected to have a 15% margin this quarter - higher than the industry average.
Citation needed. Their financial report - you know, what they have to legally submit with real numbers to not be charged with even more SEC violations - do not support your claim at all. Why do you INSIST on ignoring their actual published numbers? Do you like living in fantasy land?
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Link [tesla.com]
Do you not even read the quarterly reports? Seriously, what's wrong with you? Literally the second line in the update letter... boldface in the original... "Model 3 gross margin turned slightly positive in Q2, expecting roughly 15% in Q3"
First you mistakenly thought that quarterly statements come out on the last day of the quarter, and now you show that you don't even know what's in them. Geez... I hope for your sake that it's not your own money that you're investing.
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I was talking about gross margins . "Margin" is on its own a nonspecific term, and can be gross, operating, pretax or net; you're trying to declare it to be a synonym with net margin, which it is not.
Now we revert back to our previous "where is the mythical doubling of personnel and facilities?" argument that you've refused to address above. I guess we'll find out about Tesla's secret new volcano lair after (snicker) "a week"? ;)
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Gross margin is the portion of a balance sheet that by design scales linearly and (roughly immediately) with production volumes. And production volumes are (for the most part) the one thing that we, as outsiders, can actually observe as the quarter progresses, so it's the only thing that gives us insights into the Q3 balance sheet. I say "for the most part" because we can also observe
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Much simpler way to explain this: they make a profit vs the costs that scale per car made. They take a bath on fixed and one-time costs. What happens when volume increases?
You get a bit wordy, and I think people get lost in it.
The real argument is "where will sales plateau, vs what's the running cost of servicing debt". I remain skeptical there: sedans just aren't that popular in the US. 5k per week is impressive, if Tesla can sustain that, but I'm not sure it's enough (and it's never going to be 10k -
Bad cost accounting (Score:3)
Hey, when you sell cars below cost (essentially giving them away), you can move a lot of cars! Now, add in the $17,600 that Tesla loses on each vehicle ($717 million loss last quarter to ship 40,740 cars) and the $7500 the Government gives you to buy one, and you end up with the mythical $35K and up car actually costing $60K.
You are clearly not an accountant and you obviously don't work in manufacturing because you have the accounting analysis completely wrong. Where to begin...
TLDR version is that Tesla isn't going to have to raise prices - the just have to keep their variable costs low and sell a lot of cars and they should reach profitability. Presuming their debt load doesn't kill them before that happens of course.
1) You are assuming Tesla's costs are constant and fixed which is never true in manufacturing. This is not
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You're assuming those costs are one off and they won't have to continually spend on replacing equipment, maintenance, R&D, opening new dealerships, service centres etc. Tesla is a story/growth stock, it needs to keep growing to keep the story alive. They're valued like a company that's ten times bigger. If the growth stops the story stops, then the share price collapses, the margin calls come in, the convertible notes don't convert, Musk goes bankrupt etc.
What is the point in number 6? R&D isn't a o
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Re: Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:4, Funny)
The crash tests results of your motorcycle should be very interesting...
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Hope you are a registered organ donor. Shame to see all those parts go to waste when the inevitable happens
Motorcycles vs EVs (Score:2)
Great mileage, comfortable, and I am never stuck in traffic thanks to California wisely allowing what 90% of the world's population can do - filter and lane share.
Comfortable is a matter of perspective but you be you. There are a lot of drawbacks to motorcyles. Miniscule cargo capacity, not great for passengers (particularly children), FAR more dangerous to operate than a car, zero climate controls, noisy, and horrible in the snow. Some of these may not be issues for you specifically but if motorcycles were so awesome more people would be riding them. I have nothing against motorcycles (except Harley's which are exclusively ridden by noise polluting asshats) but
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Shhh!
Re: Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:5, Funny)
You can't even figure out how to make a Slashdot account, and we're supposed to believe you had the wherewithal to accumulate all those vehicles?
I'm guessing you're talking about toy model cars, unlike the totally real Koenigsegg and Bugatti Chiron sitting out in my driveway right now. One is for me and the other is for my wife, Morgan Fairchild, which whom I have had sex.
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I think, anybody that owned an Aston Martin would know how to spell it.
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You can volunteer to pay extra taxes, fluffer. Did you volunteer to pay an extra $5k? Or are you only generous with other people's money? Thought so.
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Do other people get to use the road, too? Can I come and use your Model 3 about 15% of the time, to cover the $7500 tax subsidy you get? Do you have to let others use your car 15% of the time?
Taxes deductions is a very old concept, you're extremely biased here.
How about deductions for mortgages, are you saying someone not having a house can live in someone else's house for some time for free just because they can deduct they mortgage interests from payed taxes and the former cannot?
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A US gallon of petrol contains 33 kilowatt hours of energy which makes it about 50% more expensive than your night rate. However, you have the convenience that you get the same price if you need to "recharge" during the day and it only takes a few minutes.
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Re: Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:5, Interesting)
Model 3s have been driven (calculations in a previous Slashdot article) about 300-400 million miles so far. In the US, there's a car fire once in every ~20 million miles. So far the shorts (who've been desperate to find any Model 3 fires they can find) have found evidence of one - count it, one - fire in a Model 3. And that was in a Model 3 at the factory (salvage yard: Fremont; miles on the odometer: 1), not an owner vehicle. And when you look at the damage, it's heaviest on the front bumper, least around the battery.
Meanwhile, new BMWs in South Korea [cnn.com] have been catching fire at a rate of half a dozen vehicles per month. Not cars in accidents - most of them have been in parked cars. But of course, we don't report on things like that because, hey, they're not Tesla. Tesla is one of the few automakers which has not had to have fire-related recalls in the past several years. A number of major automakers have had to in the past several months. Gee, who would have ever thought that a combustion vehicle, propelled by combusting a highly flammable fuel, might sometimes have issues with unintended combustion?
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Or to put it another way.... [twitter.com]
Re: Any people wonder why the model 3 is hot (Score:4, Informative)
In all categories and all subcategories as well? No, that is not normal, even for luxury cars. Seriously, just compare [youtu.be] the pole tests [youtu.be] for starters.
Time for a breath of fresh air (Score:5, Insightful)
Now can we finally see the end of the morons claiming that Tesla doesn't know how to build cars, because it's harrrrrrrd? Sure, it's a hard job. That's why Tesla hired people who know how to do it.
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Who's claiming that? I'd guess most of the people claiming 'building cars is hard' are talking more broadly about NOT JUST THE BUILDING of them, but the marketing, the selling, the supporting of them, and making it a successful business - which has yet to be seen for Tesla. They have a technically superior product in many ways...yet really, the only people driving them today are fanbois of a (still) relatively niche fraction of the typical automobile audience.
It remains to be seen how durable Tesla is, an
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Who's claiming that?
You must be new here, where here is defined as "in conversations about Tesla on Slashdot" where it's pretty much guaranteed that numerous people (or at least ACs, it's never sure that they're actually human) will claim that Tesla can't build cars, or some variation on that like "now Tesla is finding out how hard it is to build an actual car" etc etc.
I'd guess
Don't guess, read.
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This 5 star rating is a laudable achievement and - more importantly for me as a buyer - a sign that the company has good priorities about what's important.
So where are the articles and praise for Ford, GM, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Volvo and all the other manufacturers who build cars that receive 5 start NHTSA ratings?
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Fair point!
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They don't know how to build cars. That's why the X is the most unreliable car you can buy. That's why they have an 84% rework rate on the Model 3 line. That's why they have thousands of cars parked up waiting for rework and new paint jobs. That's why they're losing so much money.
Then fired them because they disagreed with Musk over soft tooling, or the alien dreadnought which was replaced by forklifts and manual labour in a tent full of junk and dust. Tim
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They don't know how to build cars. That's why the X is the most unreliable car you can buy.
[citation needed]
That's why they have an 84% rework rate on the Model 3 line.
[citation needed]
That's why they have thousands of cars parked up waiting for rework and new paint jobs.
[citation needed]
That's why they're losing so much money.
They're losing money because they've been growing their business. They make money for every car they sell, they have no loss-leader models like all the major automakers do, designed to entice customers to their brand — because customers are already sufficiently enticed.
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Nope, they make operating losses. They'd be losing money even without growing their business. That's why they're in so much debt. Unlike Amazon, they can't fund their expansion from their own cash flow, because they don't have any, so they borrow at high interest rates.
The entire company is a loss-leader.
Re: Time for a breath of fresh air (Score:4, Insightful)
The lies are getting rather desperate considering that the only two automotive majors that haven't gone bankrupt are Ford and Tesla. All others have.
You have to at least try to make it look like you're not just lying through your teeth you know.
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Nissan went bankrupt?
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I would suggest he meant American majors. There are plenty of foreign automajors that are running just fine.
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Rather obvious considering parent claim was "chapter eleven".
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I would suggest he meant American majors. There are plenty of foreign automajors that are running just fine.
That depends on how you define "just fine". Nissan couldn't survive without Renault. Fiat couldn't survive without Chrysler (and may not survive with them.) The big German automakers are being investigated for collusion on emissions devices, and they might well have been in financial trouble if they had to implement those things as the cost of vehicles went up and their sales were further eroded by Japanese vehicles. As far as I can see, the only major automakers really making it in the world are Honda and
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Please donÃ(TM)t forget about us up here in Sweden making cars. Volvo has been making all time sales records every year for the last five years.
This is the Volvo that first had to be bought out by Ford and then had to be bought out by the Chinese, right? An all-time sales record for Volvo is what, five cars? Six?
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That was the other way around. Fiat rescued Chrysler when they were close to bankruptcy and didn't have a single vehicle anyone outside of North America would buy.
In fact, neither company can survive without the other... or likely, with the other. Remember how Sergio was running around begging everyone to partner with FCA? There's a reason for that.
Regardless, the vehicles keeping the whole thing afloat are Jeeps and Dodge muscle cars. You know, Chryslers.
The big German automakers are being investigated for collusion on emissions devices, and they might well have been in financial trouble if they had to implement those things as the cost of vehicles went up and their sales were further eroded by Japanese vehicles
The investigation has been going on for a while and it has yet to turn up any evidence and considering the fact that the the competition did not implement those things either, I highly doubt it would have made any financial difference.
What? Are you new? That is literally the opposite of what makes sense. The investigation is into whether the German automakers colluded to not implement those things. It made a financial difference in the bottom lin
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That comment of Musk is going to be extra juicy when they go bust. It'd probably be better for them if they went into Chapter 11, but it would wipe out Musk and destroy his credibility, and his ego comes first.
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Getting even more desperate, but at least this time, this isn't an AC account. Tesla may go bankrupt tomorrow, or in a hundred years from now.
But it hasn't gone bankrupt yet, unlike every major domestic competitor it had save one. And so, folks like you are seething with hatred and rage at their utter inability to earn money on someone else's misfortune.
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Maserati and Lamborghini definitely are boutique.
But that's not the point. Tesla is not an automative major just because you have found another manufacturer that sells fewer cars in your territory.
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That desperation when you're trying really hard to pretend that op didn't cite chapter 11, making reply obviously refer to US majors.
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My name is neither "google" or "duckduckgo".
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Re: Time for a breath of fresh air (Score:5, Insightful)
Tesla still doesn't know how to build cars. As in, in volume
Can you build 8000 cars a month? Because Tesla is almost there [insideevs.com].
You see, once they figured out how to actually produce in volume, from there it's very easy to scale up (as long as you are not constrained by suppliers).
Building them for sale without going broke is what is hard, and what Tesla cannot do.
That sounds scary! Lucky for Tesla what you are saying is a bald-faced lie. But then you are an AC so I'm sure no-one believed what you were saying anyway.
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Except they haven't figured it out. A burst week where they use a weasel term 'factory gated', including unfinished cars sent out to a giant parking lot in the desert, and an 84% reject rate, followed by a week-long shut down because it was so unsustainable. This is not figured it out. And it isn't easy to scale up, cars are not software.
If scaling up was easy, Tesla wouldn't be losing so much money, woul
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It is just a flesh wound, and will be fixed by an OTA.
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What's amusing is that I have arguments on Fb with friends with Teslas about the shortcomings, then I come over here and I have arguments about their achievements. Because of what you said, what bothers me is falsehood. I have my own reservations about Tesla — for example, their recent T&C change denying supercharger use to people using their Teslas for commercial purposes suggests that their much-vaunted charging network ain't up to the task of letting people use their EVs in the same way that th
Correct links? (Score:3)
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Bureaucrat tests designed by committee... (Score:2)
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has much more realistic tests.
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Could you explain this statement? I googled a bit, but it doesn't seem like this is a commonly held opinion.
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Look at the videos of the NTSB tests: straight into a brick wall and sliding perfectly sideways into a pole. OK, maybe on a rare occasion an accident like that somehow happens but then look at the IIHS test videos. More likely oncoming traffic is partially into the lane so realistic head on collisions are offset halfway or so. And getting hit in the side is more likely to be t-boned by another car at an intersection and not sliding into a pole and the difference in shape of the impacting object has a huge d
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As others have pointed out already, the Model 3 earned a 5 star rating in every category, which is a rare accomplishment. The NHTSA frequently hands out overall 5 star ratings to vehicles that had lower marks in a number of categories.
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