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Does Amazon Owe Wikipedia For Taking Advantage of The Free Labor of Their Volunteers? (slate.com) 176

Slate's Rachel Withers argues that "tech companies that profit from Wikipedia's extensive database owe Wikimedia a much greater debt." Amazon's Alexa, for example, uses Wikipedia "without credit, contribution, or compensation." The Google Assistant also sources Wikipedia, but they credit the encyclopedia -- and other sites -- when it uses it as a resource. From the report: Amazon recently donated $1 million to the Wikimedia Endowment, a fund that keeps Wikipedia running, as "part of Amazon's and CEO Jeff Bezos' growing work in philanthropy," according to CNET. It's being framed as a "gift," one that -- as Amazon puts it -- recognizes their shared vision to "make it easier to share knowledge globally." Obviously, and as alluded to by CNET, $1 million is hardly a magnanimous donation from Amazon and Bezos, the former a trillion-dollar company and the latter a man with a net worth of more than $160 billion. But it's not just the fact that this donation is, in the scheme of things, paltry. It's that this "endowment" is dwarfed by what Amazon and its ilk get out of Wikipedia -- figuratively and literally. Wikipedia provides the intelligence behind many of Alexa's most useful skills, its answers to everything from "What is Wikipedia?" to "What is Slate?" (meta).

Amazon's know-it-all Alexa is renowned for its ability to answer questions, but Amazon didn't compile all that data itself; according to the Amazon developer forum, "Alexa gets her information from a variety of trusted sources such as IMDb, Accuweather, Yelp, Answers.com, Wikipedia and many others." Nor did it pay those who did: While Amazon customers pay at least $39.99 for an Echo device (and the pleasure of asking Alexa questions), Alexa freely pulls this information from the internet, leeching off the hard work performed by Wikipedia's devoted volunteers (and unlike high school students, it doesn't even bother to change a few words around). It's hardly noble for Amazon to support Wikipedia, considering how much Alexa uses its services, nor is it particularly selfless to fund the encyclopedia when it relies upon its peer-reviewed accuracy; ultimately, helping Wikipedia helps Amazon, too. [...] We all benefit from Wikipedia, but arguably no one more than the smart speakers, for which the internet's encyclopedia is a valuable and value-adding resource. It's frankly a little exploitative how little they give back.
Withers goes on to note that Wikipedia seeks donations from its users -- it's a non-profit that runs entirely on donations from the general public. While one can argue that "Amazon is only packing up information that we ourselves leech for free all the time, [...] Alexa is also diverting people away from visitng Wikipedia pages, where they might noticed a little request for a donation, or from realizing they are using Wikipedia's resources at all," Withers writes.

A report from TechCrunch earlier this year pointed out that Amazon is the only one of the big tech players not found on Wikimedia's 2017-2018 corporate donor list -- one that includes Apple, Google, and even Amazon's Seattle-based sibling Microsoft, all of which matched employee donations to the tune of $50,000.
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Does Amazon Owe Wikipedia For Taking Advantage of The Free Labor of Their Volunteers?

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  • by Anonymous Coward

    That's literally the whole point of Wikipedia, to distribute knowledge for free, is it not?

    • In a market economy sense of Wikipedia being owed compensation for services rendered - absolutely not. You're right about that.

      However, in a gift economy sense of maintaining a balanced flow of wealth - absolutely. Those who accept your gifts but never give gifts to you, gradually stop receiving gifts. (That was essentially what motivated the GPL3 - too many high-profile for-profit freeloaders building resentment in the community caused enough upset that some of the GPL2 community decided to further rest

      • by Cederic ( 9623 )

        Alexa grants people access to shared knowlege. That knowledge was shared by people.

        So really Alexa is merely granting people access to their own knowledge.

        Unless you can demonstrate that users of Alexa and contributors to Wikipedia are very separate communities, people are granting gifts to themselves.

        • Lets run the numbers, shall we?

          This page looks a little outdated, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] but claims only 130,675 editors have contributed in the last 30 days, and only ~48,000 editors have made 600 total contributions. With about 3,500 editors make >100 contributions per month.

          Meanwhile, around 50 million Alexa devices have been sold.

          Unless the participation rates have increased dramatically, or all 48,000 major contributors purchased an average of 1000 Alexa devices each, it's very unlikely

        • Alexa grants people access to shared knowlege[sic]. That knowledge was shared by people.

          So really Alexa is merely granting people access to their own knowledge.

          Unless you precede the first instance of "people" with "some" and the second with "those exact same" then the conclusion doesn't follow. Statistically it's very unlikely to be the case.

          • by Cederic ( 9623 )

            Alexa, a web browser. The some/many ratio is consistent whichever tool people use to access the information.

            • If I'm reading an article about (to choose a topic totally at random) aspie fucktards who don't understand logic, and I happen to be the one who wrote it, then in that case I'm sharing information with myself.

              The other 6,999,999,999 people aren't.

              • by Cederic ( 9623 )

                You are a member of a community. You access a resource created by that community. You benefit from the community's contribution. The community just shared knowledge with itself.

                Aspie fucktard logic still beats your idiocy.

  • No. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:33PM (#57464974)
    What an incredibly stupid idea. [youtube.com]

    Donating to Wikipedia is fine, but at the end of the day their a charity making a public resource. Are we running out of things to criticize Amazon for now that they've been shamed into paying living wages?
    • Re:No. (Score:5, Funny)

      by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:56AM (#57465496)

      Are we running out of things to criticize Amazon for now that they've been shamed into paying living wages?

      Well, if we want to close the loop, we could criticize them for contributing to wage inflation.

      • Also we're blaming them for

        "Alexa gets her information from a variety of trusted sources such as IMDb, Accuweather, Yelp, Answers.com, Wikipedia and many others." Nor did it pay those who did:

        Amazon owns imdb !

    • Re:No. (Score:5, Informative)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @08:43AM (#57466500) Homepage Journal

      Actually under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License that Wikipedia uses they are legally obliged to give attribution. So it appears that they are at the very least in breech of that licence, leaving aside any moral arguments about contributing to a resource that is absolutely vital to the performance of their highly profitable product.

      • So it appears that they are at the very least in breech of that licence

        Is that a good reason to muzzle them?

    • What makes Alexa so special here? Should Dell and every other OEM also pay Wikipedia money because I can use their computers to visit Wikipedia? And what about phone manufacturers? I guess they should pony up too.

  • No! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Arzaboa ( 2804779 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:36PM (#57464984)

    Isn't that one of the points of the internet... to share knowledge?

    --
    I can't accept this! - Monica Swinton, A.I.

  • No (Score:5, Insightful)

    by registrations_suck ( 1075251 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:37PM (#57464992)

    No one owes Wikipedia anything for using it.

    Wikipedia makes itself available as a free service. If it wants to GET PAID for its use, it needs to update its TOS appropriately, and start charging as it sees fit.

    • Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:33PM (#57465308)

      So....credit the source.

      That is a well-established practice, even when dealing with freely-available information.

      Amazon owes that to Wikipedia, socially if not legally.

    • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      More specifically, most tech corporations look at wikiepedia and think, how can I steal it and force government to make all citizens pay to access it, and make those payments compulsory and tied to capital assets, also if children fail to pay they must donate organs to cover expenses.

      Face it most corporations only donate for the PR=B$ and would rather steal want they are donating too, plus of course all the other money that was donated by others. The only thing ringing in their heads is, infinite greed, i

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      You are technically right, but the problem isn't the documentation. Morally speaking, Amazon's use of scraping other sites for free implies they see nothing wrong with doing so. Unfortunately, this is not what they actually believe, since they believe it is wrong to scrape their own site. Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20160903083414/pricezombie.com/announcement

      Having a TOS with onerous conditions doesn't make those conditions moral. It only most of the time makes them legal.

      • by Cederic ( 9623 )

        Just write a bot that never reads the TOS and doesn't agree to comply with it.

        Instead it can use a defined protocol to request responses from a server, and the server can choose whether to provide those responses. Maybe something like HTTP, that seems quite good at this sort of thing.

    • Re:No (Score:5, Funny)

      by angel'o'sphere ( 80593 ) <{ed.rotnemoo} {ta} {redienhcs.olegna}> on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:36AM (#57465582) Journal

      No one owes Wikipedia anything for using it.
      In what fucked up society did you grow up that you don't owe the courtesy of indicating who you quote?

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by infolation ( 840436 )

        No one owes Wikipedia anything for using it.

        In what fucked up society did you grow up that you don't owe the courtesy of indicating who you quote?
        © 2018 angel'o'sphere. All rights reserved.

  • Hosting (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:38PM (#57465000)

    How about Amazon just save the donation, and instead host all of wiki (media, commons, and others) all free of charge on AWS. This cost Amazon less, and greatly reduces cost for the foundation.. win-win. Though, personally, I'd argue the site should be mirrored at least across the three largest cloud providers to keep it up at all times.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      No, this is a bad idea - it would give Amazon far too much leverage. It's best for Wikipedia to remain as independent as possible.

    • Re:Hosting (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:30AM (#57465566)

      Hosting and the technical operation is such a SMALL percentage of the Wikimedia foundation's $76 Million in annual operating expenses [wikimedia.org]: it's kind of ridiculous.

      They would still complain that Amazon's contribution is paltry.

      Consider this though: The people contributing FREE LABOR to build the encyclopedia are not getting paid by the foundation, BUT the foundation has many hired staff and buildings.... so the donations are going to pay people, But the people who develop the software and write the articles on the encyclopedia are largely unpaid volunteers ---- Meanwhile the WM foundation spends more than $6 million on administrative employees, close to a $1 million each on a bunch of different categories like "branding and brand identity, community health, etc"

      In short.... they seem like a sprawling non-profit that has a disproportionately large and disproportionately expensive operation leeching off the public good done by unpaid volunteers to provide personal salaries for an entity that serves itself and uses donations to grow itself and pay administrative overheads to people that own itself, whereas an organization of 10% of its size would be more than adequate to support the technical infrastructure and systems that the unpaid volunteers doing 99% of the real work require for all languages of the global free encyclopedia to exist.

      • Re:Hosting (Score:5, Insightful)

        by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @03:27AM (#57465816) Journal

        In short.... they seem like a sprawling non-profit that has a disproportionately large and disproportionately expensive operation leeching off the public good done by unpaid volunteers to provide personal salaries for an entity that serves itself and uses donations to grow itself and pay administrative overheads to people that own itself, whereas an organization of 10% of its size would be more than adequate to support the technical infrastructure and systems that the unpaid volunteers doing 99% of the real work require for all languages of the global free encyclopedia to exist.

        I have noticed that an awful lot of people underestimate the complexity of large operations especially when the end goal seems simple. Running something with the size and reach of wikipedia is not simple.

        You probably think "it's just a website" and you could host it. You couldn't.

        https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik... [wikimedia.org]

      • I vaguely remember around 10ish(?) years ago seeing Wikipedia having a donation thing across the top. There was something saying they didn't need money to have the site up, that they had enough to keep it up for a long long time. I can't remember what they said it was for, but it specifically stated it had nothing to do with keeping the site active online.

        Now it feels like anytime they have the donation up, the wording is basically: "If you don't donate, Wikipedia might die forever. If everyone just gave

      • Yours is the kind of narrow argument that makes me groan inside.

        Given the enormous asset base (5.7 million articles in English alone, plus all of the discussion and history behind that process), and the public visibility and reach, it's pretty easy to slap a valuation on Wikipedia well north of $5B, were it commercialized in any way similar to its closest comparables.

        When you're playing on such a big stage, even if you aren't commercialized to the full potential of your underlying asset, you are actually on

        • by epine ( 68316 )

          s/but don't own me a freaking dime/but you don't owe me a freaking dime/

          I've witnessed this failure mode many times, in myself and others. It takes roughly 95% of your brain to suppress the f-word.

          Meanwhile, the other 5% of my brain was preparing to engage the cherished screed-culmination "submit" button.

  • by Arnold Reinhold ( 539934 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:41PM (#57465006) Homepage
    Amazon doesn't owe Wikipedia contributors anything. Contributions to Wikipedia are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 licensed, under which "You are free: to Share—to copy, distribute and transmit the work, and to Remix—to adapt the work, for any purpose, even commercially." You still have to attribute the work and license your modifications under similar terms. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License) Contributors agree to this license when they click "Publish changes." So maybe Amazon needs to do a better job of attribution, and million dollar gifts are always appreciated, but that about it.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Todd Knarr ( 15451 )

      All that's correct. OTOH, that license doesn't cover continuing access to Wikimedia's servers and network. I'd think it'd only make good business sense, if Wikipedia's such a valuable source of information for Amazon, for Amazon to have a contract in place insuring continued server and network capacity for Wikimedia to provide for Amazon's needs and for continued editor/moderator support. The ongoing cost for Amazon would probably be negligible, the direct benefits should be obvious and the benefits in term

    • by Shaitan ( 22585 )

      Legally you are correct but ethically is another matter. Alexa is almost certainly costing the project money to serve content up.

  • by brian.stinar ( 1104135 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @09:52PM (#57465040) Homepage

    This question makes no sense. Why would someone owe for free things, which there is no contract/terms-of-service/financial agreement?

    Today must be a slow news day....

    • While the summary comes off as a clumsy hitjob and I somewhat resent siding with it, there is more to the concept of "owing" than what is laid out in legal contracts. Just because the state won't enforce the repayment of a debt doesn't mean the debt doesn't exist.

      Once you've turned eighteen you don't legally owe your parents anything, but you owe them a lot personally if they've given you a good home, and you would be quite a crummy person if you didn't pay it back by taking care of them if they become dec

      • by LostMyBeaver ( 1226054 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @03:08AM (#57465750)
        If Wikipedia is truly a non-profit, then the contributions it gains above and beyond its normal revenue stream should produce a trust that if managed correctly will cover its expenses.

        A million here and a million there by companies like Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc... as well as governments and such is very generous. I'm quite sure Amazon would also be very happy to contribute hosting, bandwidth, counter-DDoS, etc...

        A major part of running a non-profit is long term ambitions. In other words, it's in the interest of the organization and the world as a whole to continuously improve wikipedia over the next 100+ years. As such, if each year Amazon and others contribute to them allowing their reserves to grow at a rate faster than inflation, then Wiki over time could be entirely self-sufficient to the point that they offer scholarships and more.

        People are missing that you don't want to get a $50 million payment today if you can instead get $500 million over the next 100 years from Amazon or whoever beats them out. Also, graciously accepting the handout and spending some time publicizing how grateful you are for it would attract other businesses who would like to be seen as positive contributors to the organization.

        Wikipedia is not a business, it's an organization. So long as this is true, it should operate as one.
    • by Kjella ( 173770 )

      This question makes no sense. Why would someone owe for free things, which there is no contract/terms-of-service/financial agreement?

      Different life philosophies. Some people seem to more or less believe in moral karma, no matter how much you say it's free with no strings attached they feel an obligation to reciprocate and if they can't pay it back, they should pay it forward [wikipedia.org]. These people are often those who refuse charity, because to them it's a debt no matter what. On the other extreme of the scale you have people who aren't even grateful, it's more like disdain "If these fools are giving it away I'm grabbing all I can" and you find so

      • I like your explanation, and hypothetical examples. Thank you for spending the time to explain these viewpoints as you did.

        It seems to me like the critical portion of this question is the definition of the word "owe." I tend to take the viewpoint of the third group when it comes to the word "owe." I don't believe it's possible to "owe" someone something without some kind of agreement. I pay for my employees to provide "free" WordPress support [meetup.com], since my company makes a decent chunk of our income on the "free

  • This is clear distillation of the move from the late 90s internet that escaped AOL's walled garden–idealistic, DIY, open-standard based, focused on the free (and I do mean free) flow of information, naive but hopeful–to the modern internet–cynical, monetized, closed platform based, focused on emotionally charged political (of all stripes) outrage.

    I don't care one bit for this development, but I don't think that top-down solutions, whether technical, monetary, or bureacratic, could be su
  • Google just about anything and the first result and the sidebar will have links to Wikipedia.

  • It's right in TFS (Score:4, Interesting)

    by viperidaenz ( 2515578 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @10:54PM (#57465208)

    Amazon's Alexa, for example, uses Wikipedia "without credit, contribution, or compensation."

    Amazon recently donated $1 million to the Wikimedia Endowment, a fund that keeps Wikipedia running

    • The "without credit" might be wrong, but if volunteers* are paid voluntarily for a job well done, it is a bit daft to complain about it.

      * There probably are a lot more volunteers outside the wikimedia foundation who contributed. I think no penny goes to them. Not that they expected to.

  • What, is Wikipedia hurting for cash? No. No they are not. They are swimming in cash. So much that I'm baffled by their need to do fundraising campaigns. The whole idea behind Wikipedia is that information wants to be free, and now Slate thinks it should cost money? WTF I thought they were socialists?
  • Just Imagine... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Luthair ( 847766 ) on Thursday October 11, 2018 @11:25PM (#57465292)
    What they must owe the Linux foundation following this hare brained logic.
  • by daveime ( 1253762 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:47AM (#57465490)
    Todays thread about something that has been released under a CC licence, free for anyone to use or modify provided the attribute the source ... and then wanting to add EXTRA conditions after the fact because someone uses it in a way they don't like.

    That's not how licences work. If you want more restrictions, or a non-profit clause, then use the correct licence to begin with.
    • Todays thread about something that has been released under a CC licence, free for anyone to use or modify provided the attribute the source ... and then wanting to add EXTRA conditions after the fact...

      If the summary is accurate (I know, I know), that emphasized bit is what Amazon isn't doing. Requiring monetary payment would be adding extra conditions, but requiring attribution is part of the license.

  • This type of article is the type of lazy journalism that I hate. They gave one million dollars, that's a real sum for Wikipedia. It's a generous donation when none was needed. Normally no journalist would ever think to write 'does amazon owe money to wikimedia'. Yet, now it has reached the news that Amazon gave a million, they get pointed to the subject and start berating Amazon for it somehow not being to their standards (which it will never be, if it's too much they'll find something else wrong with it -

  • Amazon can agree to pay Wikipedia when Wikipedia agrees to pay the volunteers who maintain and update its info.

    The volunteers agreed to provide that service without compensation.

    Wikipedia agreed to provide its service without compensation. If it now wants to switch to a pay model (and that's what this is - wanting to be paid for the service it's providing), it's free to do so (provided it can figure out a way to placate the volunteers who gave freely of their time and labor to make Wikipedia possible
  • The day Wikipedia starts licensing it's content commercially will be the day that it dies.
  • Possibly they owe the volunteers writing Wikipedia contents, not Wikipedia.
  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by cowdung ( 702933 ) on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:30AM (#57466274)

    Alexa is a search engine. Just like Google.
    Should Google pay Wikipedia for reading results?

    • by f00zbll ( 526151 )
      Google does make regular donations to wikipedia, google it and you'll see for yourself.
    • I was writing up something similar, but realized the difference ... Alexa doesn't attribute her answers to Wikipedia, robbing Wikipedia of potential brand awareness and future donation. Alexa's lack of a UI and repatriation also robs any ad-serving websites of ad revenue. In a web browser/search engine, the consumer can at least see the ads that help sustain the website.
  • Wikipedia "We are doing this for the benefit of all mankind and expect nothing in return!!"

    Amazon "Cool beans thanks"

    Wikipedia "WTF AMAZON?!! WHY HAVEN'T YOU GIVEN US MONEY (billions)??!!"

    Amazon "lol, typical"

  • No.

    Thanks for asking though ...

    Sheesh, I hate Indian givers. "We're so great; we're making information freely available to the world! Oh, but not to you, big meany who makes more money than I do."

  • Wikipedia is, indeed, a handy resource. But it's also one that sometimes seems like it wants to have things both ways; free for everyone's unlimited use AND a service that's owed some kind of regular donation if you utilize it.

    Considering the content (which is the only reason the site has ANY value) is contributed by users volunteering to write it? I don't think they have much of a leg to stand on if they're upset Amazon uses it without compensating them.

    In fact, the decision made to make Wikipedia a free t

  • Morally? Yes. They should. It'd be a real nice thing to do. But... even then, the REASON I put stuff up on wikipedia is so that EVERYONE can go use it. If Amazon is using it... that still counts. This is one of it's intended use-cases.

    Legally? No, I don't think so.

  • If wikipedia doesn't owe its free volunteers for taking advantage of them, why does Amazon owe wikipedia for taking advantage of them?
  • When we release something to the community, for free, that includes commercial use. If we don't want it to, there are licenses that can make it free for personal use, but not for commercial.

    The Wikimedia Foundation made a decision to make their content free for everybody, and to not restrict the usage. Same as GNU, Linux and others. Even if you are making money. Even if we don't like what you do with it. We give it away because that's what we decided to do. And nothing is owed.

    It doesn't mean compa

  • They are complaining about Amazon using something that they are giving away for free? Hell, the Wikipedia Foundation doesn't even PAY the people who post and keep articles on Wikipedia. So are they gonna stop living off the free work that those volunteers do and start paying them per article and change?

    Yeah, didn't think so.

I tell them to turn to the study of mathematics, for it is only there that they might escape the lusts of the flesh. -- Thomas Mann, "The Magic Mountain"

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