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Trump's Tech Battle With China Roils Bill Gates Nuclear Venture (wsj.com) 207

Add Bill Gates to the list of executives whose businesses have been ensnared by the Trump administration's battle with China over technology and trade. From a report: The tech tycoon and philanthropist said in an essay posted late last week that a nuclear-energy project in China by a company he co-founded called TerraPower LLC is now unlikely to proceed because of recent changes in U.S. policy toward China [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled; alternative source]. That leaves TerraPower, which had been working on the China project for more than three years, scrambling for a new partner and uncertain where it might be able to run a pilot of the nuclear reactor it has been developing, according to company officials.

Mr. Gates, TerraPower's chairman, helped start and fund the Bellevue, Wash., company, which incorporated in 2008, in a long-term bid to make nuclear reactors smaller, less expensive and safer than current nuclear energy sources. The company has been developing something called a traveling-wave reactor, which uses depleted uranium as fuel, something that TerraPower says can improve safety and reduce costs. Regulatory restrictions and limited federal funding made building the facility in the U.S. difficult and led TerraPower to look for partners abroad, Chief Executive Chris Levesque said in an interview.

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Trump's Tech Battle With China Roils Bill Gates Nuclear Venture

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  • It's not far from Seattle. Much easier to get to than China.
    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      With Canada the US gets to keep an eye on the full nuclear cycle.
  • DMSR (Score:5, Informative)

    by sfcat ( 872532 ) on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:28PM (#57889894)
    Some explanation...depleted Uranium (U-238) is the more common form of Uranium found in nature. It has a very small amount of U-235 which is the fissile stuff (enriched Uranium is almost all U-235 and very little U-238). The way this reactor works is that it breeds the U-238 into Pu-239 and that's what fissions. It also uses water as a coolant which is a bad idea we need to retire. A coolant that increases the intensity of the chain reaction is a really, really bad idea. The explanation for why this design is pushed is that the U-238 isn't useful for a bomb (and we have a lot of it) and the waste that comes out is very long lived which is something the anti-proliferation folks like (I think this is a stupid way to do anti-proliferation). However, this design produces more waste than some more modern designs and in my opinion isn't really suitable for civilian power.

    The breeding of U-238 is exactly what you do when you make a modern bomb and PUREX (how you separate out the Pu-239 from the Uranium) isn't exactly a secret process as it was developed 70 years ago. It seems safer to just use 50% enriched Uranium (which still require enrichment) and make less waste or ever better use a Th-U fuel cycle as no Pu-239 is produced in that fuel cycle. Anti-proliferation folks often come from foreign policy or military backgrounds and often don't have the science background to understand all the subtleties of nuclear power. So they choose the "more power" approach and often force civilian operations to run in a far more nasty and waste producing way in an effort to ensure nobody ever reprocesses the waste to make a bomb. This is classic risk telescoping as the pollution from the waste is far more likely to endanger lives than this fantasy that couldn't even happen in a movie because the audience wouldn't buy it.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      The idea is that any nation using waste from an export approved reactor would be found out in the amount needed and the vast new industrial scale.
      No easy, free pathway to a hidden mil production line from the side door of an approved export designed nuclear reactor.
      That allowed the approved export of turn key reactors to more nations.
      That would have allowed more nations to buy into reactors and create more jobs in a few advanced reactor building nations.

      China had a very different pathway to nuclear ind
      • by sfcat ( 872532 )

        No easy, free pathway to a hidden mil production line from the side door of an approved export designed nuclear reactor.

        Denatured Uranium fueled reactors breed Pu-239. You still have to process it out of the waste but its created. Alternatively, 50% U-235 (medium enriched uranium) still has to be processed to make a bomb too. Neither process is much harder than the other (although PUREX is more complex and creates horrible waste like at Hanford). The Denatured route makes nasty waste that lives for a very long time. The medium enriched fuel makes much less nasty waste and is easier to control in a reactor. Both of thes

        • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          The idea is that soil samples (embassy workers) and other collected intelligence would detect the production once a nation went for a dual use production run for its mil.
          So much effort went into making the waste difficult to work with.
          • by sfcat ( 872532 )

            The idea is that soil samples (embassy workers) and other collected intelligence would detect the production once a nation went for a dual use production run for its mil. So much effort went into making the waste difficult to work with.

            Well PUREX plants are much larger but also more low tech. Compare this to the centrifuges that are unique to uranium enrichment. The parts of PUREX are often used in other chemical plants.

            U-232 in the Th-U fuel cycle is a much more effective anti-proliferation material than Pu-238 in the U-Pu fuel cycle. U-232 decays through 3 different gamma emitters including one at 75MeV. Pu-238 by contrast emits mostly alpha radiation (can be shielded by sunscreen or your clothes) and has no gamma emitters in its

            • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
              It was the only way to get the turn key exports and safe guards.
              All about jobs and reactor sales to nations begging for their own reactors.
              The strange part is why would China be buying into this.
              They have all the dual use and mil production plants they want.

              China wants this method for something.
              • by sfcat ( 872532 )

                It was the only way to get the turn key exports and safe guards. All about jobs and reactor sales to nations begging for their own reactors. The strange part is why would China be buying into this. They have all the dual use and mil production plants they want. China wants this method for something.

                China is doing LFTR because its a huge CO2 free source of energy and they have tons of Thorium (as in Liquid Fluoride THORIUM Reactor). They do 90% of the rare earth mining so they have 90% of the extracted Thorium sitting in big piles next to those mines. Plus without the messy western regulations, nuclear becomes really, really cheap. Oh, and the leader of China's LFTR effort said they would get a research reactor up and running by 2040 so I wouldn't hold my breath on the LFTR just yet. Kirk Sorensen

    • by dasunt ( 249686 )

      It also uses water as a coolant which is a bad idea we need to retire. A coolant that increases the intensity of the chain reaction is a really, really bad idea.

      Care to explain this statement? Why is it a bad design to rely on having coolant to sustain a nuclear reaction?

      • by sfcat ( 872532 )

        It also uses water as a coolant which is a bad idea we need to retire. A coolant that increases the intensity of the chain reaction is a really, really bad idea.

        Care to explain this statement? Why is it a bad design to rely on having coolant to sustain a nuclear reaction?

        Coolants aren't bad. Coolants that are also moderators are bad. A moderator in a nuclear reactor is the substance that slows down (reduces the energies of) neutrons and increases the change of a fission and improving the neutron economy. Making your coolant, which you increase to slow down the reactors, the same as the moderator, which you remove to slow down the reaction, makes managing the core difficult. That's why people want to use anything but water for a coolant including molten salts (both fluor

        • by dasunt ( 249686 )

          Coolants aren't bad. Coolants that are also moderators are bad. A moderator in a nuclear reactor is the substance that slows down (reduces the energies of) neutrons and increases the change of a fission and improving the neutron economy. Making your coolant, which you increase to slow down the reactors, the same as the moderator, which you remove to slow down the reaction, makes managing the core difficult. That's why people want to use anything but water for a coolant including molten salts (both fluorides

          • by sfcat ( 872532 )

            Reactors such as BWR don't use coolant to manage the reaction. The coolant (AFAIK) has to be there to sustain the reaction, but control rods are used to control the reaction.

            You are being very pedantic there. While not the first choice of an operator, trying to boost the amount of coolant exposed to the core is an option they have. Also BWRs have huge reserves of water that are designed to pour over the core to cool it in the event of an emergency. Just because you call water a coolant doesn't mean it won't cause the reaction to increase in intensity (this has happened). This is a classic problem with all LWR type reactors and is well studied.

  • Given how the chinese treat IP; isn't this a favor?

    Basically they'd build the reactor in china, and within 2 weeks the plans and technical details would be 'appropriated' by the Chinese government.

    Basically all that R&D wasted. Just because they aren't shooting at us (yet) doesn't make them an ally, or even a remotely-friendly country.

    • by guruevi ( 827432 )

      Gates isn't a dummy. Off course they will, but he still wants to sell them the product. Better get some money than getting none of it and having your competitors sell it anyway or China buy the startup company out directly through a shell or investment bank.

    • by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:53PM (#57889954)

      Given how the chinese treat IP; isn't this a favor?

      Basically they'd build the reactor in china, and within 2 weeks the plans and technical details would be 'appropriated' by the Chinese government.

      Basically all that R&D wasted. Just because they aren't shooting at us (yet) doesn't make them an ally, or even a remotely-friendly country.

      On the other hand... Nuclear power isn't really something that the Chinese can build cheaper there for sale in the US; it will be used locally. Their use won't undermine use in the US. Wouldn't better, safer nuclear power be better where ever it's used than older, less-safe designs? In this case, sharing the IP doesn't really sound like a bad idea. Perhaps R&D can be shared for the benefit of everyone rather than hoarded for extra profit by some.

      We all live on this planet together.

    • by mentil ( 1748130 )

      You're assuming his goal is profit rather than maximizing usage. This might be comparable to putting a dresser on the curb with a sign that says 'Free' and noone taking it, and then putting a sign that says '$5' and it's gone in minutes.

      "If you have a good idea, noone will steal it from you; you'll have to shout it from the rooftops to get anyone to listen."

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      That assumes there is no way that they could develop the technology on their own if they wanted to. In practice if it works well they will develop their own version in time (to avoid being reliant on western hardware and software, which they are well aware is probably backdoored by the NSA and can't be trusted).

      So you have a choice: refuse to work with them and see your idea die because no-one in the west wants to build it, or get it done in China and okay maybe in the longer term they still do their own ve

  • Excellent (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    It's fundametally dangerous to transfer tech to an evil totalitarian coomunist regime that has a dictator-for-life and is trying to spread its influence globally.

    These CEOs of western tech companies who have been giving China high tech as part of a trade for Chinese slave labor have been setting all the pieces in place that may eventually lead to another World War, just as businessmen both technology and materials with Japan and Germany prior to WWII provided those nations with what they needed to assert th

    • Re:Excellent (Score:5, Insightful)

      by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @06:52PM (#57890126)
      Better to do research in China than not do it at all -- the US is too mired in NIMBY'ism for civilian nuclear power research to be practical here. The goal isn't for him (or the US) to get rich, it's to increase the worldwide adoption of carbon-free nuclear power. He's acting as a philanthropist here and this should be respected.
    • evil totalitarian coomunist regime that has a dictator-for-life and is trying to spread its influence globally.
      Most Chineses don't consider their regime evil.
      However they consider a Bush Aristocraty evil ... and now the obviously evil Trump.

      Bill Gates got rich in America, selling products to Americans. If he had a shred of decency and loaylty, he would do his research in America with American workers.
      In a fucked up society as that of America, he can not find those workers.
      To make grand scale changes to th

    • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      Gees, wake up, those times are over. China has caught up and is now developing on it's own. Fuckwit Mao created chaos to feed his insane ego and crippled China, that was last century, the previous millennium, now they are caught up and continuing to develop. All the US can to is cripple China's trade with other countries and of course that would really hugely, extravagantly blow right up in the US governments faces, as allies tell them to go fuck themselves and continue to trade with China. Make no mistake

  • Before and After (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Jarwulf ( 530523 )
    Before Trump: Slashdot and Media: We're worried about China, they don't play fair , steal our tech, and they have horrible human rights and they destroy our jobs in exchange for cheap trinkets. We should restrict ties with them. After Trump: Slashdot and Media: I LOVE CHINA: UNLIMITED OPENNESS OF ALL OUR SECRETS AND EXCHANGE OF EVERYTHING 4EVA!
    • by Iconoclysm ( 3885655 ) on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @06:02PM (#57889976)
      Honestly, I'm worried more about China now that we've already built them up and now we're severing ties. It's incredibly stupid to do...not as stupid as your assumption that anyone has changed any opinion they had before Trump came along, but still very dumb.
    • by m00sh ( 2538182 )

      Before Trump: Slashdot and Media: We're worried about China, they don't play fair , steal our tech, and they have horrible human rights and they destroy our jobs in exchange for cheap trinkets. We should restrict ties with them. After Trump: Slashdot and Media: I LOVE CHINA: UNLIMITED OPENNESS OF ALL OUR SECRETS AND EXCHANGE OF EVERYTHING 4EVA!

      The online trolling campaigns are taking a break. There is no political election near.

      Just wait until the 2020 election comes around. Things will be back to full swing then.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      You have that backwards. Trump was the one who made China the boogyman. Before 2016 they were just the place were cheap crap got manufacturered and not much of a big deal. Now Slashdot loves to blame China for everything and there is strong support for bans on Chinese products and technology.

      • Nah, I distinctly remember discussions here about how evil China is during Dubya rule.

        Hah, look here. And an article by Jon Katz of all people:
        https://features.slashdot.org/... [slashdot.org]

        I think I am getting nostalgic. All your base and so on.

      • by G00F ( 241765 )

        Wrong, infact very very wrong! China has been the bad guy/bad actor for a very long time. Just look at vietnam war. Or this just about trade?

        China was the economy boogyman before joining WTO in 2001, and since then it's a bad actor of trade of every nation it trades with. Way more than just currency manipulation. And no one is even talking about the fact that many of the workers are effectively slaves where they live in complexes and given rations.

        I blame Regan and Clinton for the trade problems and sellin

  • Why the fuck is US tech going to benefit China?

    • by m00sh ( 2538182 ) on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:27PM (#57890782)

      Why the fuck is US tech going to benefit China?

      We're not building any here.

      China are pursuing nuclear technology. They will do it with our without American tech.

      Without China, this American tech will just be whitepapers and simulations.

      • by sfcat ( 872532 )

        Why the fuck is US tech going to benefit China?

        We're not building any here.

        China are pursuing nuclear technology. They will do it with our without American tech.

        Without China, this American tech will just be whitepapers and simulations.

        No, we built a MSR in the late 60's called the MSRE [wikipedia.org]. Then we abandoned it for the fast breeder because of politics (clearly not of engineering because fast breeders have failed to deliver). That's the crown jewel we are giving to the Chinese. It worked, it was ready to be scaled up, and it was abandoned and only resurrected purely by accident and given to the Chinese because we can't get the US to license one.

  • by DCFusor ( 1763438 ) on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @08:41PM (#57890414) Homepage
    And someone needed a PC excuse to cut and run. Good business acumen. Laughs about it over drinks later. Amazing how many here don't have a clue how the world works for real. Downvoting begins now.
  • Three baby-mamas, doesn't pay his bills and loves KFC. I think the white supremacist Trump supporters may be missing the obvious here.

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