Digital License Plates Are Now Allowed in Michigan (theverge.com) 193
Digital license plates are now allowed in Michigan thanks to a new state law. It will join California and Arizona as one of the few states in the US that allow digital license plates, allowing drivers to register their cars electronically and eschew old-school metal plates. From a report: To be clear, digital license plates consist of displays covered in glass that are mounted onto a frame. They come with their own computer chips and wireless communication systems. Some of the benefits of using digital licenses versus old metal ones are the ability to display Amber alerts or stolen vehicle messages when needed, but they could also make it easier to digitally renew license plates over the years. That comes at a price, though. Currently, they cost $499 for a basic version, and $799 for a premium version that features a GPS navigation add-on.
Count me out! (Score:3)
Re: Count me out! (Score:2)
Re:Count me out! (Score:5, Funny)
I'm keeping my license plate analog. If my license plate were to have discrete letters and digits, that would just make it easier for cops to identify me.
Did you get vanity plate 88BB8B8 or O0O00O0?
https://xkcd.com/1105/ [xkcd.com]
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I get the joke, but in Arizona they take that seriously because of their experiment with photo radar statewide from 2007-2010. People immediately started to do this type of gaming - and it didn't last long. All O's are banned (you have to use zeroes). And they review each vanity plate request. I tried to get D0000D and they denied my request because it was too hard to read by officers. (They also don't allow offensive plates - and there have even been "negative" leaning plates denied (Arizona State fans bag
Don't get "NO PLATE" "NO PL8" "NO TAG" or MISSING (Score:2)
Don't get "NO PLATE" "NO PL8" "NO TAG" or "MISSING". You're likely to get a flood of citations [snopes.com] for parked cars with missing plates.
Seems like an opportunity (Score:3)
So, criminal buys fancy license plate so state knows they've got one.
Uses maker skills (theirs or someone else's) to make plate visually identical (for considerably less money, as the price of this thing is crazy, but anyway...) then programs it to display license number YRT387 as per usual.
But on Tuesday, alters plate number to HFG221. Does crime. Drives off. Alters plate number back to YRT387. Cops are looking for HFG221.
Yes, these are definitely a great idea. /s
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this like everything else is for citizens that follow without question. abuse just shows that the govt loves them.
More convenient for the government and banks maybe (Score:5, Interesting)
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Based on the size of the unit, it looks like there is plenty of room to add the capability to record not only your current location, but a record of where and when you traveled, along with the speeds. What a treasure trove of information to be exploited, stolen, and misused. All paid for by you! My plate will be NFW-999 (No F****** Way Ever!)
Digital License plates are another tracking method (Score:5, Insightful)
I could go on and on. But pretty much everyone agrees this is a horrible idea that has it's roots in yet another way to track people.
Re:Digital License plates are another tracking met (Score:4, Interesting)
They are totally WORTHLESS for displaying amber alerts.
Typically, the police are looking for a particular vehicle during an Amber alert.
They idea is not to show that Amber alert on other people's cars. It's to make the target vehicle's license plate blink/flash/otherwise draw attention to the vehicle.
Re:Digital License plates are another tracking met (Score:5, Insightful)
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If you can get them to shell out $799 for the premium version, they can report their GPS coordinates to the authorities as well.
Re:Digital License plates are another tracking met (Score:4, Interesting)
The Amber alert angle is designed to sell the plates to the state government, who would then mandate them on cars. Or as a reason for someone like GM to integrate them into the car for OnStar's "we stop the bad guys" angle.
If they were mandated, presumably the cost would be lower due to the large volume produced. For now, it's a very niche product so it's expensive.
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If they were mandated, presumably the cost would be lower due to the large volume produced.
You might presume that, and possibly there will even be places where it'd happen. In California, they'd make you get a separate license for it, and slap a tax on top of that.
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It would still be worse, becuase LCD / LED displays are far more fragile than a sheet of stamped fucking steel.
I don't see lines of people looking to get replacement plates due to damaged plates today, and even if they did the cost is 10% of the replacement cost of one of these. Incredibly more fragile and far more expensive than the incumbent solution is an awesome market advantage.
You can see it coming (Score:4, Insightful)
So all we have to do is get all the kiddie fiddlers to buy $500 plates.
So the next obvious step is to mandate all sex offenders registering in the state, must in fact buy these plates... who would vote against that?
Then from there you do felons, then from there anyone who gets arrested for any reason, then from there everyone.
You can see it coming...
Re:Digital License plates are another tracking met (Score:5, Informative)
So all we have to do is get all the kiddie fiddlers to buy $500 plates. Well on second thought, brilliant!
Over half of Amber alerts are not "kiddie fiddlers" but a parent on the wrong side of a custody dispute.
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So all we have to do is get all the kiddie fiddlers to buy $500 plates. Well on second thought, brilliant!
While you're making a snide comment, the reality is that the vast majority of child abductions (and resulting amber alerts) are due to parental abductions (ie estranged mother/father running with the kids during custody battles etc....
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They are totally WORTHLESS for displaying amber alerts.
Typically, the police are looking for a particular vehicle during an Amber alert.
They idea is not to show that Amber alert on other people's cars. It's to make the target vehicle's license plate blink/flash/otherwise draw attention to the vehicle.
That makes no sense -- if that have this remotely accessible device that they can set to flashing mode, why don't they just ask the device to report its location and then the police know exactly where it is, no need to wait on other drivers to report it, or turn them into vigilantes that will try to apprehend the driver themselves.
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That makes no sense -- if that have this remotely accessible device that they can set to flashing mode, why don't they just ask the device to report its location
Did you miss the part where the base model doesn't have GPS?
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That makes no sense -- if that have this remotely accessible device that they can set to flashing mode, why don't they just ask the device to report its location
Did you miss the part where the base model doesn't have GPS?
I re-read it and I still don't see that part, I only see "$799 for a premium version that features a GPS navigation add-on.", you don't need GPS navigation for simple position reports, just need a $30 GPS chipset, and I'd be very surprised if all of the frames don't already have that chipset and the "GPS Navigation" is just not activated unless you pay extra.
I don't even know what they mean by "GPS navigation add-on" -- how does a license plate frame help with GPS navigation? Going around to the back of th
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Number of vehicles registered per year?
Number of amber alerts per year?
Cost of "digital" plate versus stamped plate?
"Unintended" costs to non-abductor users?
I think we can find better solutions that don't disproportionately affect everybody because of the 0.0001% of vehicles used in the commission of an amber-alert disappearance.
Re:Digital License plates are another tracking met (Score:4, Interesting)
I have yet to see a single coherent argument for digital license plates.
Here's one: The implementation will probably be so shitty they will be hackable by the owner to display whatever you want. I'm sure a certain segment of society could find that useful.
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I agree with you 100%, this kind of crap is totally insane. Just like "smart assistants", people will pay to get themselves tracked by the government, hackers and other nefarious groups.
What we need is transparent displays inside the rear windows of cars and trucks, to display scrolling messages, short animations and videos to annoy the people following us and to prevent us to clearly see what's happening in our rear-view mirrors.
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Request documents from a city gov and who was in the car park at that time is now on record.
No more having a city worker follow the person out into the car park to photograph the license plate
No more city police and private security having to ask for photo ID and where the car is.
Do a first amendment audit and every type of transport in the area is fully investigated.
Drive too near a cult compound and their private detectives will know who is doing a T
What is the ROI? (Score:5, Interesting)
Some of the benefits of using digital licenses versus old metal ones are the ability to display Amber alerts or stolen vehicle messages when needed
Not to seem callous but why would I pay (a lot) extra for the ability to display Amber alerts? And there already are pretty good and more affordable solutions for stolen cars.
Currently, they cost $499 for a basic version, and $799 for a premium version that features a GPS navigation add-on.
WTF could these things do that would possibly justify such a price point? I already have GPS in my car and my phone so that's a non-starter, especially given that it wouldn't probably be integrated into the car's infotainment system. If my car gets stolen that's what insurance is for and shockingly my insurance appears cheaper than these things. I'm all for doing things a better way but I don't see any meaningful benefit here.
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Primary use is for tracking. Some countries are considering it to assess road taxes. The other reason is to enrich government and its cronies. A digital display does not cost $500; an iPad does and is much larger and more powerful than what this needs to do. I can get these produced out of China for $50/pc (1000 minimum).
Tracking (Score:4, Insightful)
Primary use is for tracking.
Presumably but I don't seem much reason to buy one for that since it doesn't benefit me in the slightest. My phone doing it is bad enough already.
Some countries are considering it to assess road taxes.
Which would be idiotic. Tax fuel (gasoline, diesel, and/or electricity) at appropriate levels and you accomplish the sensible goal of taxing in close accordance with utilization. The bigger the vehicle and the more someone drives the more fuel they will use. Trying to track mileage via a plate is idiotic.
The other reason is to enrich government and its cronies.
Probably closer to the truth.
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I think they're trying to be pro-active, and tax on mileage, for when electric cars become predominant, and don't generate gasoline tax revenues.
Hell, they're trying to do this already due to the better economy that cars/trucks
Tracking mileage for taxation is idiotic (Score:3)
I think they're trying to be pro-active, and tax on mileage, for when electric cars become predominant, and don't generate gasoline tax revenues.
Taxing mileage is idiotic and needlessly complicated. You can accomplish raising the necessary revenue by taxing electricity in pretty much the same manner you tax gasoline today. Cross reference the registration with the electric bill if you need to know exactly whose car it is to bill properly. The increase in electric use will correspond nicely with the increased use of electric vehicles and you can adjust the rate to the amount needed to maintain the roads properly.
Hell, they're trying to do this already due to the better economy that cars/trucks are getting, that it has caused a decrease in tax revenues already.
Only because we have idiots in elec
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Taxing mileage is done all over Europe though. Together with weight and engine size, they decide your car taxes, insurance and even taxable income as work-home traffic is discounted, hence why they're putting cameras up to track people and correlate with what they're reporting on their tax returns.
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How do you tax electricity without increasing the cost of electricity used for normal household purposes: lighting, computers, A/C, appliances, etc.? You would have to require all charging be done through an additional meter. Even if there is another meter in the house, the electric vehicle could still be charged via a dryer outlet.
How do you tax electricity for those whose net usage is zero due to solar panels?
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You tax all electricity -- a kWh is a kWh and makes the same amount of CO2 (depending on source) regardless of where it is used. Give a tax credit for the poor below a certain income.
As far as having one's own solar system, the obvious solution is not to tax it -- that would encourage installation of solar systems.
If you want to tax mileage, tax tires and require annual inspections to check for safe tires. Tire wear correlates pretty well to miles traveled and vehicle weight.
Re: Tracking (Score:4, Interesting)
Or, you could just look at the odometer which correlates perfectly with milage.
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I go on a coast to coast trip and back. Of that 6000 miles of wear, only about 400 miles is from California. Why should CA tax me on 6000 miles of wear instead of 400?
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And what, precisely, is the constitutional basis for such a tax?
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Technically, for the US government, it is. Otherwise, the government has no legal existence.
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The constitution actually mandates apportionate taxes (each state being taxed an identical amount). It took an amendment to allow otherwise.
Billing EVs for road maintenance (Score:2)
How do you tax electricity without increasing the cost of electricity used for normal household purposes: lighting, computers, A/C, appliances, etc.?
Several answer to that. First off it doesn't matter if we increase the cost of electricity for other purposes - the cost of gasoline is priced into everything we do currently so it doesn't really change anything in that regard.
1) Most people are going to charge their cars at their homes. If they don't have an EV then they won't get billed for charging one.
2) You cross reference the EV car registration with the electric bill and charge accordingly. Require every EV to have a home meter responsible for the
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I own two EVs and my cost of electricity is zero. Solar panels FTW!
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Really? Someone gave you free solar panels and the associated wiring/circuitry?
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Tax fuel (gasoline, diesel, and/or electricity) at appropriate levels and you accomplish the sensible goal of taxing in close accordance with utilization. The bigger the vehicle and the more someone drives the more fuel they will use.
That's incorrect. Road damage increases as the fourth power of vehicle weight according to the US General Accountability Office
https://www.denenapoints.com/r... [denenapoints.com]
An 18-wheeler (~6mpg) causes as much road damage as 10,000 cars (~25mpg). The 18-wheeler is paying 4x as much tax but causing 10,000x as much damage. That is not "close accordance" at all.
Now it depends what you mean by "utilization". If you're referring to overall US expenditure to ensure a reliable oil supply then sure, that's directly proportional
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The other reason is to enrich government
Given the state of USA infrastructure and national debt this is not a bad thing.
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Not to seem callous but why would I pay (a lot) extra for the ability to display Amber alerts?
An Amber alert typically includes searching for a particular vehicle. So you wouldn't be displaying Amber alerts, the target of the Amber alert would be flashing or otherwise drawing attention to the vehicle.
This is unlikely to convince you to buy such a plate, especially at that high a price. It's aimed at selling that plate to the state government, which then mandates it on your car. Or possibly building the technology into the car at the factory, much like OnStar can turn off a car's engine when the p
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The negatives have thoroughly been covered in the forum so I will not bother
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It all sounds good, untiiiil you realize that most US States have a "ballot measure" system; including Michigan.
Once you find out that the Ebil Gubermint is easily over-ruled directly by the voters on a per-issue basis at the State level, and that license plates are done at the State level, then you can realize that it is stupid to think the State could mandate the use of something like this; or that they would even try.
Obviously, the targets are politically-conservative investors, and the only real product
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Once you find out that the Ebil Gubermint is easily over-ruled directly by the voters on a per-issue basis at the State level, and that license plates are done at the State level, then you can realize that it is stupid to think the State could mandate the use of something like this; or that they would even try.
"Why do you love child molesters and hate children?!!?! You want all children to be stolen in the middle of the night and raped to death!!!!"
And now your ballot measure doesn't quite pass.
If the basic purpose of the device is not clearly and entirely safety-related, then it isn't going to be mandated.
Please explain the vehicle safety provided by emissions control mandates.
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Well, in my State people are smarter than that. Not individually, perhaps, but as a group they do much better.
Even in Michigan people aren't that stupid.
So take heart, you won't be the only one voting!
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I presume on private property the car enthusiasts can program them to say PSYWGN or whatever. The RoI on underglow isn't measured in dollars.
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WTF could these things do that would possibly justify such a price point?
Er ... um ... you wouldn't need to put a new sticker on it every year?
You'd just have to change a battery instead ... oh yeah.
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Hours of driving out to a location, waiting, having data entered.
Now the sale/rental deal will just be part of a new digital experience.
What the math on hours lost in terms of $100 over hours in a year, every few years?
US professional like new cars, more than one car, rental of new cars for a year, going to auctions of classic cars.
Thats real hours back every year, ev
Also, a benefit is... (Score:2)
How long until they are mandatory? (Score:2)
KISS (Score:3)
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It's extremely wasteful. None of these digital plates will make 10 years of life and just end up in landfills. You'd think California would have thought about the toxic e-waste these things are going to end up making.
There needs to be legislation to regulate such wasteful, throw away products. Digital plates should be made illegal at the federal level. Along with millions of other trinkets that corporations buy for giveaways (just as an example). They are all cheap throw away shit, consuming resources,
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:renew? (Score:5, Interesting)
In Belgium you get your license plate once. You take them with you when you get a new car. When you do not need them, you bring em back i.e. drop them off at the post office.
In the US you keep the plate but have to renew the registration every year. Usually costs about $20-25, plus tack on another $20 for yearly required emissions. So, even at $50 a year for registration the basic plate would take 10 years before the purchase price is paid off. Now, what are the odds that an electronic plate will last 10 years without damage/needing to be replaced/etc?
Re:renew? (Score:4, Interesting)
In Belgium you get your license plate once. You take them with you when you get a new car. When you do not need them, you bring em back i.e. drop them off at the post office.
In the US you keep the plate but have to renew the registration every year. Usually costs about $20-25, plus tack on another $20 for yearly required emissions. So, even at $50 a year for registration the basic plate would take 10 years before the purchase price is paid off. Now, what are the odds that an electronic plate will last 10 years without damage/needing to be replaced/etc?
You also pay a $7/month subscription fee for the plate; plus I doubt the DMV is going to lower the registration costs. I really don't see any great value beyond perhaps more unique vanity tags and the ability for the state to us it to identify vehicles, such as changing or flashing the number to Expired, Stolen, Amber Alert, etc. and to collect some extra cash each month. Of course, no one would figure out how to access it and change the display to something more interesting.
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Must be nice to live in a place where vehicle registration is that cheap. It's an order of magnitude higher in California, even for old cars. And we kicked a governor out of office for trying to triple that.
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Not everywhere. In some places, the vehicle keeps the plate as it is transferred from owner to owner.
Well, I meant you aren't getting a new plate every year, you are just paying every year for the registration for the plate.
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$20? Where the fuck do you live? California is several hundred dollars (goes down the older your car is), and hell even Illinois is $100 for a renewal.
GA. $20-25 for a standard tag plus the emissions charge. Specialty tags cost more. Does Cali add taxes every year?
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Most states have specialty plates, but only one type of tags.
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Does Cali add taxes every year?
California taxes their own taxes. Literally.
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$20? Where the fuck do you live? California is several hundred dollars (goes down the older your car is), and hell even Illinois is $100 for a renewal.
And Massachusetts gets a bad reputation for taxes? Registration for a regular passenger vehicle is $60 for two years, and annual inspection is $35, so total for the two is $65/year.
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$20? Where the fuck do you live? California is several hundred dollars
The rest of the country has been explaining how insane Californians are for most of my life. Meanwhile Hollywood thinks their infantile version of insanity is mainstream.
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The plate (as in the hunk of metal with numbers on it) you keep for years.
Some states consider the the plate to identify you, so you take it with you to a new car. Others consider it an identifier for you and the car, so you get a new plate when you get a new car.
"Renewals" are renewing the vehicle's registration. That's annual, and is a mechanism to collect property taxes and fees. In most states it's also a mechanism to force you to have a safety and/or emissions inspection done on your car every year.
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Same in Canada, the plate is "yours" and whenever you change car, you transfer the plate
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Except in Quebec (which tends to be the case for basically any policy come to think of it)
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In BC, it's a mix of both. If you wind up buying a new car and keeping your old one, even if it's just for a day while you try to sell it, you wind up with new plates. It used to be that people just transferred their plates, but come to think of it, most people I know have wound up changing plates as they've changed cars.
That said, the plates just go back to ICBC, likely to be recycled.
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Has anyone thought about the impact (Score:2)
to the private prison slave labor currently making license plates? /s
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Those are called "movies."
You're gonna be so excited when you make it to the surface and find a theater!
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to the private prison slave labor currently making license plates? /s
Yes indeed; the private prison slave labor in China making the electronic plates makes the US state prisons making metal plates seem like a resort.
no thanks, ill stick with the old metal plates (Score:2)
Can I run Linux on it? (Score:2)
No point in Europe... (Score:3)
The registration number on a car here in Europe rarely changes, certainly never is the vast majority of cases. The registration number belongs to the car, and stays with the car for its life.
One of the reasons the number might change is when a car is exported and thus re-registered in another country (e.g. in Ireland it's much cheaper to buy a used car in the UK and import and re-register it than to buy a lower spec used car here).
Another is vanity plates, which aren't available in all countries. I think they still are in the UK, but not in Ireland -- Irish registration numbers have the year of first sale, the county, and a sequential number, so, say 191-D-1234 is the 1234th car registered in Co. Dublin in the first half of 2019 (192 for the second half). It's possible to reserve a number in advance, though, so you could reserve 191-D-80085. That's as close to vanity plates we have. Numbers above 120000 are reserved for imports, so a car originally purchased in the UK in 2010 and re-registered several years later in Ireland would get a 10-D-120000+ registration number. (The 3rd digit attached to the year didn't start until 2013, partly to boost latter-half sales by having 2 "years", and partly to avoid having 13...)
Anyway, a registration plate is about â20 or less. Why would anyone pay â500 or more?
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OTOH, if it was mandated in Europe, a year later this same post would still be showing up.
Europe isn't a country and doesn't have a constitution, and yet you have rules that your governments are required to implement. Your system of government is such that you can't make broad statements about what changes you might see in the future; you could have nearly any rules in the future, without even having to change the system.
If there is a point or not is something you'll have to wait until they tell you to know
Talking about paying for something to be tracked.. (Score:2)
Oh great (Score:2)
The government already has vehicle tracking (Score:2)
It's called TPMS [schneier.com]. All new passenger cars in the US and EU as of 2012 have it. And it's not opt-in.
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First tire change: Slip tire guy a couple of bucks to remove sensors. Mount them in a little air bottle (properly pressurized) in the trunk to keep the TPMS receiver happy during inspection. Leave at home otherwise.
No flipping way (Score:2)
This reminds me of the CueCat (Score:3)
There was an excellent review by the Evening Standard's Debbie Barham of the cuecat scanner years ago, and the line that stuck out is "it fails to solve a problem which never existed."
That applies here.
Forget digital (Score:2)
I want backlit plates [cardomain.com] like Japan allows.
Easy disproof of intelligence/income link (Score:2)
The fact that these troublesome, privacy-eviscerting, upside-free license plates are priced out of reach of the lower and middle classes, and yet there are people buying them.
Track, Compile, Target, Eliminate (Score:2)
Stupidity - 10 plate can do it (Score:2)
Just put a plate with a unique QR or barcode on every car, once. No need for expensive scanners, police could scan plates with a even a cell phone app. A plate is either paid up or not.
Fucking 19th century mentality....
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Why would you replace existing plates every 10 years? That seems incredibly wasteful! My plate is currently 20 years old, and my parents have plates that are 35 years old dating back to the last time the government changed the look of the plates. (Government tried again to change the look of the plates a couple years back, but there was a huge outcry about the waste of money so they gave up. It appears that they were only trying to change the plates because the government of the day didn't like that the new
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Two reasons. First, the plate could deteriorate over time, so the state wants you to have new plates periodically so that they're always in good enough shape to be legible. Second, and perhaps more important, is that the state charges me a higher fee in years when they've decided I need a new plate, and I sincerely doubt that the added fee exactly offsets the cost of the plate--they get a little additional revenue. In the
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No, I think there are companies with solutions looking for problems.
This thing does absolutely nothing better that a printed plate can't do except spy on you, cost far more, and fail more often in ways that are far more severe.
Fuck this bullshit.