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Earth Power

Germany To Phase Out Coal Use By 2038, Says Report (abs-cbn.com) 301

Germany has laid out a $91 billion plan to phase out its use of coal by 2038, a government-appointed commission said Saturday. "Under the plan, half of the up to $91 billion will go to the regions shuttering plants in the west and east of the country, while the other half will be spent on preventing electricity prices from rising," ABS-CBN News reports. From the report: The commission agreed to the deadline after months of bitter wrangling as pressure mounts on Europe's top economy to step up its commitment to battling climate change. The panel, consisting of politicians, climate experts, unions and industry figures from coal regions, announced the deal after a final marathon session ended on Saturday morning. The commission's findings will now be passed on to the government, which is expected -- barring a surprise -- to follow the recommendations of the panel it set up. The plan will be discussed at a meeting between Chancellor Angela Merkel, Finance Minister Scholz and regional leaders on Thursday, national news agency DPA said.

Several plants using lignite or brown coal, which is more polluting than black coal, would be closed by 2022. Other plants will follow until 2030, when only 17 gigawatts of Germany's electricity will be supplied by coal, compared to today's 45 gigawatts. The last plant will close in 2038 at the latest, the commission said, but did not rule out moving this date forward to 2035 if conditions permit. The affected regions, where tens of thousands of jobs directly or indirectly linked to brown- and black-coal energy production, will receive 40 billion euros as compensation over the next two decades. Two billion euros will also be spent each year over the same period to stop customers from facing rising electricity prices.

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Germany To Phase Out Coal Use By 2038, Says Report

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  • by AlanObject ( 3603453 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:25PM (#58030550)

    The great Chinese Climate Change Hoax claims yet another victim.

    Those poor German fools are going to clean up their environment, make more livable cities, have cleaner water and less smog and create tens of thousands of new jobs. All for nothing.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      Meanwhile, in the real world, Germany is tearing down villages and forests in order to expand their mines. Lignite coal is the largest power source in Germany.
      • Meanwhile, in the real world, Germany is tearing down villages and forests in order to expand their mines. Lignite coal is the largest power source in Germany.

        Closedown is supposed to be in 2022. So they need three years worth of coal. And you could tell us which village exactly is being torn down right now. For example, Elsdorf, Esch, Angelsdorf, Niederzier and all the villages around Hambach Forest seem to be quite safe to me.

    • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

      At least the Germans are setting a date that is realistic, 2038. An not some "feel good" date of 12 years as stated by some newly elected dingbat. Of course by setting that far out most of the politicians set this goal will be long retired or dead.

      • The original plan was 2030 ... but it was never put into "law" ... and for some reason we slowed down, well did not expand as fast as "assumed/planned" in renewables last decade.

        And this "new 2038 thing" is not a law either ... it is just a result of many talks, so I doubt there ever will be an
        "anti coal law".

        Now we have an agreed plan, between "the state" the "federal states" and "the industry" and hopefully the society. Unfortunately for people living from mining it is still hard to sell ...

        Problem is: th

  • while the other half will be spent on preventing electricity prices from rising

    If you are spending money to prevent prices from rising, you need to include that money in the price you are trying to lower.

    You can hide the true price of something by subsidizing it so that buyers see a lower price, but that does not mean you are actually lowering the price. You are just obscuring that true cost.

    • The point is that everybody benefits about equally from clean air and less global warming, whereas certain people are impacted disproportionately by shutting down the coal industry (those who produce and consume it), so using public funds to soften the blow for them creates an offramp. Sure, if the sustainable option also happened to be cheapest in the short run, there would be no need for any measures because it would just happen. Not the case unfortunately.
    • You are just obscuring that true cost.
      And what is your point?

      My power comes out of the plug in the corner of my room ... the price I pay for it matters. Well, not for me, but for some people.

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:28PM (#58030566)

    Although getting rid of coal is a nice effort from the standpoint of pollution, if you are truly serious about climate change, why is Germany getting rid of THIER use of coal.

    I mean, whatever coal fired power plants they already have probably have really strict emission control equipment, right?

    Meanwhile, what if you took 98 *billion* dollars and used that money all to improve the electrical power grid in India. From solar projects to simply putting CO2 and emission scrubbers on coal plants they have, would that not be a vastly more efficient use of money?

    The whole point of the Paris accord was to shift money from rich to poor nations anyway. So why not make that shift a lot more direct, and actually focused on improving the worst emissions?

    As it is the Germany effort just looks like virtue signaling that will have almost no real impact on worldwide CO2 levels.

    • Germany's coal plants are among the dirtiest in Europe. Even if you disregard climate change, the pollution itself is enormous. And the coal mines are miles long (and aren't closing, but expanding)
      • Germany's coal plants are among the dirtiest in Europe.

        Nonsense. The coal is low quality, the coal plants are top notch. You may not realise that, but the more efficient a coal plant is, the less pollution from incompletely burnt coal it will produce. Which means the plant makes more money by being less pollutant.

        • by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:24PM (#58030804) Homepage Journal
          Total BS. Three out of the top 10 most polluting power plants in Europe are in Germany. Four of the ten most toxic companies have their main coal plants in Germany: RWE, EPH, Uniper and Steag. You don't know what you are talking out.
        • You are looking at a very small part of the problem. Increasing emissions in any combustion cycle increases NOx (higher combustion temperatures). Once you get beyond that, this is coal we are talking about, so the “trace elements” have to be dealt with.

          About the only way to have “clean coal” is to gasify it, which still isn’t that clean (even if you are capturing the CO2). At least then most of the waste products can be used for something.

    • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:45PM (#58030636)

      Most German coal is lignite, which is filthy low-grade crap that generates even more CO2 per KwHr than bituminous coal.

      If the Germans had any sense they would have kept their nukes running and shutdown these coal plants long ago. I can understand not building new nukes, but shutting down perfectly good reactors that were humming along, producing clean power at very low cost, made no sense.

      • by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:13PM (#58030748)

        If the Germans had any sense they would have kept their nukes running and shutdown these coal plants long ago.

        As an American living in Germany, I never understood that decision either. It was definitely not based on sense at all . . . it was more like fear, emotion and almost religious in nature. The Chernobyl experience also most certainly played a role. It was most certainly not based on logic or science.

        I've always been curious if the crew of Markus Wolf - "The Man Without a Face" - had their fingers in this. The East German Stasi tried to stir up trouble and discontent in West Germany. Much like what the Russians are very successfully doing in the US right now.

        • by Applehu Akbar ( 2968043 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:36PM (#58030872)

          Imagine what life would be like today if the first two major airline crashes had caused us to stop pursuing aviation.

        • by spth ( 5126797 )

          There are a lot more jobs in coal mining than in the nuclear industry. Closing open-pit lignite mines faces strong opposition from unions and local politicians.

          The decision to close down nuclear power plants, while keeping coal plants running doesn't make sense from the perspective of helping the environment. But it makes a lot of sense from a political perspective.

        • As an American living in Germany, I never understood that decision either. It was definitely not based on sense at all
          Probably you do not live in Germany long enough?

          The population fought against nuclear power against the "establishment" since the mid 1960s. FINALLY 1998 the government was Greens and SPD and promptly they FINALLY abandoned nuclear power. Unfortunately their reign only lasted close to 10 years and Merkel prolonged the run time of nuclear plants. Until Fukushima, when she reverted their posit

      • We don't even have a storages facility for all the spent fuel. The state with the most nukes strictly refuses to have a storage facility on their soil and the temporary storage is in a horrible state leaking brine.
        Besides, the good reactors were the first ones to shut down because their operators considered them too expensive to run. The only low cost nukes were the shitty ones.

      • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        The reactors are getting old. Mid to late 1980's projects.
      • Most German coal is lignite, which is filthy low-grade crap that generates even more CO2 per KwHr than bituminous coal.
        Wrong.

        Nether is lignite 50% of our coal based power production, or "most" as you claim, nor does it produce more CO2.

        CO2 is produced from burning carbon, the fucking power plant can not suddenly produce more CO2 just because the carbon comes from a different source. I really wonder how stupid people are getting in our times.

  • by guruevi ( 827432 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:32PM (#58030578)

    If $90B is required to keep renewables cheaper than other options, what will happen at the end of that? $90B in taxpayer subsidized energy buys a lot of nuclear plants which they also shut down.

    Energy in Germany (with all the subsidies) now costs over 30c/kWh while my small town supplier (primarily hydro/nuclear energy sourced) costs me 3c/kWh (without subsidies).

    On the other hand, all this investment in renewables hasn't made nearly any dent in greenhouse gas emissions within Germany over the last 3 decades.

    • by spth ( 5126797 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:30PM (#58030850)

      Annual German carbon dioxide emission per capita went from 12.93 tonnes in 1995 to 8.88 in 2016. That is a reduction of 32% (Wikipedia [wikipedia.org])

      Population increased from 77.619 million to 82.5 million during that time, so the relative total reduction is a bit less.

      Still I wouldn't call that "hasn't made nearly any dent". Still, in the face of global warming, more effort is required; and keeping some nuclear reactors running a bit longer to shut down lignite power plants a bit earlier would have helped. But doing so would probably have been hard given the political climate - there seems to be a strong anti-nuclear sentiment among the population; on the other hand opposition to open-pit mining of lignite is counterbalanced by the jobs it creates, and thus support from unions and local politicians.

      • by guruevi ( 827432 )

        Greenhouse gas emissions per capita has gone down significantly in the US as well, 40% per capita in the US and much more across the UK as well as the rest of the EU. Compared to the sources of energy and overall energy cost, the promised 'cheap and emission-free' solar/wind don't seem to be coming, we're just shifting the emissions.

        • by spth ( 5126797 )

          In the timeframe used above ("3 decades"), 1995 to 2016, the US reduced their carbon-dioxide emissions by 22% (same source as used before for Germany).

          While in general, the US still has a long way to go, there is one quite impressive aspect: The reversal of the decline of rail freight following the deregulation in 1980 (through AFAIK in recent years it started to decline a bit again). In Germany, rail freight market share in 2015 by tonnes-kilometers is just 18 %. For the US, recent data seems hard to find;

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      The full cost of power generation is then passed onto people who have to buy power in Germany.
      Exports become more expensive.
      A factory has to waste more of its profits on buying energy.
      Thats money lost to investment, upgrades, jobs and production.
      All to pay for virtue signalling power generation.
      • Energy prices in producing anything in Germany are completely irrelevant.

        Call me when they have tripled or increased ten fold, then my bread from my bakery will cost 10cent more, that is really a concern for me ....

        Worse would be beer ... I really dread the moment the beer in the pub costs 10 cent or 50 cents more ... oh the horrors!!!

        • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
          Re Energy prices in producing anything in Germany are completely irrelevant.
          Except for the people who have to save up and spend their currency to buy more expensive German goods and services.
          All that cost of wind and solar power is making German exports cost more.
          Germany exporters have to pay "money" for the energy they use every night and day to run their production lines.
          A cost that is passed on with the "cost" of the product that is sold.
          • Which part of "anything germany produces" has costs to produce and "the energy costs are below 1%" of the costs don't you grasp?
            He?

            Energy costs are completely irrelevant for stuff we export. They are "a little bit relevant" for a bakery, or a "brick manufacture". Bit for nothing else, except transportation.

            We don't compete on price. We never did. We compete on quality, dumbass.

            If energy prices increase ten fold, a product we export would increase in 9% of price ... and you can be sure even in socialist Germ

  • Burning coal at the scale involved for a population of 85 million, for another 20 years, just isn't going to cut it as a sincere environmental effort for our current situation. Yes, I know that coal makes up "only" about 30% of Germany's power sources.
    • Re:Way too late (Score:5, Interesting)

      by nojayuk ( 567177 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:51PM (#58030670)

      Germany is increasing its consumption of imported natural gas, mostly from Russia. The Nord Stream II pipeline is under construction at the moment, to bypass/supplement the trans-Ukranian pipeline currently feeding Western Europe as well as increasing supply capacity generally by about 55 billion cubic meters of gas a year. It's pretty certain that capacity will find eager customers in various European countries that are nominally pro-renewable but don't want to freeze to death in the dark.

      • Germany generally does not heat with electricity hence the one has nothing to do with the other. The increased gas supply is a replacement for heating oil.

        • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

          Britain has vastly reduced its dependence on coal-burning to produce electricity by building out a lot of combined-cycle gas turbine (CCGT) generators which burn gas instead. Over the next couple of decades Germany's coal-fired power plants will be mostly replaced by similar CCGT plants which will continue to dump CO2 into the atmosphere. A quick Google suggests Germany already produces over 10% of its electricity from natural gas (83 TWh in 2018 from one source). Of course it also burns a lot of gas for do

          • Highly unlikely. The most modern German combined cycle gas power plant was essentially closed a few years ago (the power plant operator wanted to shut it down completely because it is non competitive with renewables, but the network operator forced them to keep it running on standby as a reserve power plant for now). Generally the percentage of natural gas usage for electricity production has not changed much for the last 15 years varying between 10 and 15 percent without any clear tendency up or down.

          • Over the next couple of decades Germany's coal-fired power plants will be mostly replaced by similar CCGT plants which will continue to dump CO2 into the atmosphere.
            No it wont. Wind and Solar is cheaper ...

            Of course it also burns a lot of gas for domestic and industrial heating too since electricity is too expensive to use for home heating in Germany at nearly 30 Eu cents/kWh.
            Idiots idiots idiots everywhere ... why would anyone rebuild his house and remove the perfect working gas heating with electric heat

      • Re:Way too late (Score:5, Informative)

        by spth ( 5126797 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:39PM (#58030894)

        Emissions-wise, natural gas (0.20 g CO2 per Wh) is a much better energy source than coal (0.34 to 0.41 g CO2 per Wh). Also, gas power plants can be adjusted very quickly, making them particularly suitable to balance the varying output from wind and solar energy (both of which Germany has a lot of).

        • Yeah, yawn ... and what is your message?

          The balancing plants we already have ...
          Changing relatively quick load adjusting coal plants to gas plants makes no sense. Building a new gas plant takes 10 years. An existing coal plant can not be converted easily (easy as in quick and cheap).

          As coal is only about 30% - 40% of Germany's energy production, changing that to gas, or even combined cycle gas has only a minimal effect.

  • Just in time for 32 bit Unix time to fail!

  • They're just going to buy most of their power from foreign nations -- namely oil from the Russians and nuclear power from the French. It's just feel-good bullshit that moves the externalities elsewhere but costs the German people a whole lot of money and does nothing to solve the underlying issues.
    • by stooo ( 2202012 )

      Nope.
      Germany phases out nuclear. Coal is next.
      Renewables are at 40% now, growing every year.

    • by spth ( 5126797 )

      Considering that both nuclear and oil have lower carbon-dioxide emissions per given amount of energy produced than coal, how would that do "nothing to solve the underlying issues"?

    • by MS ( 18681 )

      Germany exports more energy, than it imports. In 2018 the difference was about 50 Terawatthours.

      In 2018 Germany exported a total of 70 TWh (mainly to the Netherlands: 19 TWh), while France exported about 68 TWh (in near equal parts to all neighbouring countries, 15 TWh to Spain)

    • by Uecker ( 1842596 )

      It is a myth that Germany relies on nuclear power from French. In 2018, Germany net-exported 50 TWh of electricity. In fact, is quite the opposite as France regularly has to import electricity when nuclear plants are offline for various reasons.

  • So $90B is going to be spent here, with a good portion of that subsidizing renewable electricity prices.

    So Germans won't be paying more in electricity, but they will in taxes.

    That's just hiding the costs somewhere else.

    Don't want dirty coal? OK. Unfortunately, renewable energy is expensive. Solar also works poorly in snowy, rainy, and cold Germany.

    So do nuclear -- which is clean -- but they won't do it because they're phobic. Or hydro, but nobody seems to like hydro anymore.

    So, yes, time to just buy it

    • by spth ( 5126797 )

      Or hydro, but nobody seems to like hydro anymore.

      Unfortunately, further potential for hydroelectric energy in Germany is small. Places suitable for large-scale generation are already in use. Many places suitable for small-scale generation, such as former mills have already been reactivated (hydro power in Germany went from 17.4 GWh in 1990 to 19.3 in 2015). There is a little bit of further potential, which can and should be used, but looking at the big picture further hydroelectric power can only be a tiny part of the German energy supply.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Pumped hydro is fine but the easy to dam locations already have dams.
      • Pumped hydro does not produce power.
        It costs power ...

        It is only used for load balancing ... and could be used as large scale storage.

        And no: the easy to dam regions are not all in use. There are thousands left. But as you see above: pumped storage traditionally only is used for load balancing ... and you do not need much of that.

    • Solar also works poorly in snowy, rainy, and cold Germany.
      I took the liberty to highlight, aka mark, two of your mistakes.

      Ever heard about global warming?

      Germany is not snowy since minimum 30 years, and not cold either ... idiot.

  • The determination of the real costs is delayed till 2023. In the mean time they pretend to believe in fairy tales, they don't really ... but politics.

    The market will not put down the necessary amount of new gas plant without either guaranteed consumption or being paid to keep it mothballed until the next dunkelflaute. Germany needs a massive expansion of its subsidized reserve capacity and they are unwilling to commit to doing so for now.

    Report is here by the way :
    http://docs.dpaq.de/14440-1901... [docs.dpaq.de]

    • You are an idiot.

      The actually existing reserve capacity in Germany is FAR OVER 100% of what er produce. And if you did not get it so far, we export 50% of all power we produce.

      How dumb are you after getting corrected 100 times during the last 5 years about your misconceptions?

      expansion of its subsidized reserve capacity
      Why the fuck would reserve power be subsidized by anyone/anything? The cost of every fucking kW/h people are buying already includes the cost for reserve power.

      You have no fucking clue how t

  • Whether this plan will come into effect remains to be seen.

    But if they displace coal generated electricity by gas plants, i won't be impressed. Especially if they choose faster plants over combined cycle (they pollute less than a combination of classical gas + wind turbines but i do not expect the greens to accept that easily). They will still emit much more greenhouse gases per capita than the French.

    If i was a betting person i would put money on gas greenwashed by subsidized wind and solar.

    The Germans (An

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      German exports and production needs 24/7 power at a set low price.
      Changes to power prices every day and night put pressure on the ability to export and keep jobs in Germany.
      Gas plants beed imported gas, a product Germany has to pay for to be imported.
      Subsidized wind and solar that works when the sun is out and wind is blowing don't give that low 24/7 power price needed.

      As new power prices go up in Germany, Germany will have to move well paid jobs to other nations that have low cost power.
      Who wants to
  • by magzteel ( 5013587 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @06:37PM (#58031524)

    More fake news on Slashdot

    Germany didn't commit to this plan, the article says it's a recommendation.

    "BERLIN - Germany SHOULD stop using coal for electricity production by 2038, a government-appointed commission said Saturday, laying out an 80-billion euro roadmap to phase out the polluting fuel."

    "Economy and Energy Minister Peter Altmaier said the government would "carefully and constructively examine" the recommendations, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper reported in its Sunday edition."

  • by vik ( 17857 ) on Sunday January 27, 2019 @07:06PM (#58031626) Homepage Journal

    Huge amounts of coal are used in Germany for making steel and cement. Not entirely sure how much - hard to google the numbers - but the steel companies in particular aren't going to like it. They rely on cheap electrical power to run arc furnaces as well as using roughly a quarter of the coal directly.

  • I have been busy trying to find the purple mountain's majesty across the fruited plains. First as far as I can tell there are no purple mountains. The plains are hardly blessed with any fruit at all. But missing something in a song is acceptable as I am convinced we are holding a guided light so that the poor and the wretched around the world can cross our borders. But the idea that Germany can get rid of coal faster than the US has no chance at all. That is just silly. After all our streets are all p

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