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Network United States China EU Government Networking

'You Need To Be Very, Very Cautious': US Warns European Allies Not To Use Chinese Gear For 5G Networks (reuters.com) 273

Posted by msmash from the tussle-continues dept.
The United States sees the European Union as its top priority in a global effort to convince allies not to buy Huawei equipment for next-generation mobile networks, a U.S. State Department Official said on Tuesday. From a report: After meetings with the European Commission and the Belgian government in Brussels, U.S. officials are set to take a message to other European capitals that the world's biggest telecommunications gear maker poses a security risk, said the official, who declined to be named. "We are saying you need to be very, very cautious and we are urging folks not to rush ahead and sign contracts with untrusted suppliers from countries like China," the official said. The United States fears China could use the equipment for espionage -- a concern that Huawei Technologies says is unfounded. The push to sideline Huawei in Europe, one of its biggest markets, is likely to deepen trade frictions between Washington and Beijing.
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'You Need To Be Very, Very Cautious': US Warns European Allies Not To Use Chinese Gear For 5G Networks More

'You Need To Be Very, Very Cautious': US Warns European Allies Not To Use Chinese Gear For 5G Networks

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  • Yes, use US gear so only the US spies on you! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:15PM (#58074968)

    Or rather the whole world, when the NSA accidentally loses its access credentials and they end up being generally available.

    • be Wary Wary qwiet.

      What's up doc?

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by jythie ( 914043 )
      It is amazing how upset people can be about the idea of others committing the ethical violations they want to commit.

      • It is amazing how upset people can be about the idea of others committing the ethical violations they want to commit.

        The whataboutism in you has reached dangerous levels.

        So anyhow - do you believe that the VPN services or phoning home of that are based in China should be embraced by people since something something NSA!!! Something something 'Murrica EVIL Bad MURRICA - Hulk SMASH!!!!

        Funny, but I don't want anyone spying on me. But your whataboutism reads like saying it's okay since read my last paragraph.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by rtb61 ( 674572 )

          lets compare Russiagate to what is going on in Venezuela and seriously you wonder the fuck why no one except utter morons trust the USA, stupendously arrogant hypocrisy and the sheer idiocy of those fucking morons stumping around the world stage absolutely bullshitting all over the place and carrying on like people believe it all. Given a choice I would take stuff out of China long before taking stuff out of the US, the Chinese stuff might be bugged but you know, you totally know the US stuff 'WILL' be bugg

          • lets compare Russiagate to what is going on in Venezuela and seriously you wonder the fuck why no one except utter morons trust the USA, stupendously arrogant hypocrisy and the sheer idiocy of those fucking morons stumping around the world stage absolutely bullshitting all over the place and carrying on like people believe it all. Given a choice I would take stuff out of China long before taking stuff out of the US, the Chinese stuff might be bugged but you know, you totally know the US stuff 'WILL' be bugged. Un-Suitable Arseholes, the government of the USA, corrupt as fuck.

            Hey fellow, since you want to play the whatabout game, how about Chairman Mao's great colectivization that starved perhaps 10 million of his country's citizens. Then hero old Joe Stalin - his specialty was killing other Russians. It was pretty impressive that Russia held their own in WW2, after he killed so many of his generals Whatabout whatabout whatabout. 'Murrica shouldn't do bad shit, but you seem to approve of everyone else doing it.

            I only engaged in stupid whataboutism because you seem really u

    • Frankly at this point, there's so much distrust you maybe shouldn't use anything from any company you don't have direct jurisdiction over. Huawei or Cisco may or may not have backdoors in the equipment, the point is you won't know for sure and won't be able to do anything in case they do, so...

      • Frankly at this point, there's so much distrust you maybe shouldn't use anything from any company you don't have direct jurisdiction over. Huawei or Cisco may or may not have backdoors in the equipment, the point is you won't know for sure and won't be able to do anything in case they do, so...

        Learn Wireshark. You'll know what you can and cannot trust in short order.

    • Huawei could likely do well by shipping clean hardware with open specifications, and allow their customer base to write the software.

      Some might use Linux kernels for maximum functionality. Some might use various BSDs for security. Some might be ornery and choose ReactOS.

      Microsoft had a chance with Edge, but they kept the source code secret. Huawei should not make this mistake.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by shanen ( 462549 )

      Good opening comment, insightful mod deserved, even though it was so short. For now just expressing my surprise.

      What I am actually looking for in this discussion of the topic is an analysis of who has the most to lose by getting caught spying on their customers. In theory the players with the most to lose might be the most likely to deliver truly secure devices.

      Based on my understanding of how the laws are made in the US, I rather doubt it is the American companies. Corporations are clearly in charge in the

      • Disappointed by the rest of the discussion, but maybe there was some good stuff and my keyword searches failed to find it. These days I'm expecting the moderation to fail (though I also checked the moderated categories).

        However, in addition to the presence of DRAM that is not backed up against power outages I did think of one more general category of features the hardware should have. I'm sure there are others, but...

        The premise of the DRAM idea is that you (the spy) want the spyware to vanish easily, but t

    • Or rather the whole world, when the NSA accidentally loses its access credentials and they end up being generally available.

      Or they just leave all the passwords on default values anyway.

  • Here’s an idea (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:17PM (#58074982)

    If the administration wants our allies to listen to our opinions, perhaps it shouldn’t be so hellbent on insulting and alienating them?

    Just a thought.

    • Everyone Needs to Understand (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sycodon ( 149926 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:19PM (#58074998)

      China is not their friend. They are a Communist Dictatorship and they will behave like a Communist Dictatorship.

      You don't have to be best pals with anyone to remind them of this.

      • Re:Everyone Needs to Understand (Score:4, Insightful)

        by William Baric ( 256345 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:48PM (#58075198)

        Let's play a game. I will name one country where the US forced a "regime change" and you will name one country where China forced a regime change. Let's see who we should trust the least.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by lgw ( 121541 )

          Most casualties in war across all of human history have been in wars involving China (usually on both sides). The current (unified) borders of China were arrived at through more bloodshed than all other nations combined. Every square foot of what is now China is a place where China forced a regime change - generally several in the course of history.

          Communists dictators have killed about 160 million people, BTW, even before the war death tolls.

        • Re:Everyone Needs to Understand (Score:5, Funny)

          by Ol Olsoc ( 1175323 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @06:16PM (#58075976)

          and you will name one country where China forced a regime change.

          China.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by shanen ( 462549 )

          Not fair. China hasn't been in the game long enough.

          That's if you start from 1949. If you do it the other way, then the United States hasn't been in the game long enough.

          Still I would agree the insightful mod was earned.

      • this is kind of a sticking point for me. Not that I care much for Communism (you never get past the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" phase, too much violence and property changing hands there) but China is a basic Kleptocracy. They govern not on the principles laid out in the works of Karl Marx but on making money for the folks in power and keeping those folks in power.

        The US isn't far off from being the same but we're teetering on the edge right now and can go either way. I think 2020 is going to be t
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Most of the world does not think in these black and white terms.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Good thought, but it appears you're confusing the "administration" = unelected apolitical professionals more than not with the PRESIDENT = feckless butt-scratching golfer who lies like that's his only duty to the American people.

      The administration would like to maintain alliances and security. Trump would trade it all for a golf course on the border.

    • Credibility gap (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Roger W Moore ( 538166 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:27PM (#58075062) Journal

      perhaps it shouldn’t be so hellbent on insulting and alienating them?

      ...or spying on us. I have no idea whether the things the US is warning everyone about is true but it does have a bit of a credibility gap warning others about not using equipment from China when we know the US government has been doing exactly this with equipment form US companies. At this point it is hard to tell whether the US is worried about China gaining capabilities or just the US losing them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jythie ( 914043 )
      But.. insulting people is how you get them to like you! It is the negging of international diplomacy.
    • and he's the one doing the insulting. It became really clear that nobody was actually listening to him when the stock market stopped responding to his tweets.

      There's only two things his tariffs have really gone after: Steel & Soybeans. As for steel a big supporter/donor of his owns steel mills, hence the steel tariffs.

      I haven't figured out the grift on soybeans yet, but I suspect somebody on this forum can find it for us and post below.

      • I haven't figured out the grift on soybeans yet, but I suspect somebody on this forum can find it for us and post below.

        In our area the soybeans have been left in the field to rot. Winning seems to take many strange forms, I guess.

    • Here's me thinking that cunt Trump can go fuck himself the way he's been treating his 'allies'. You said it so much more politely though.

  • Using some 'special sauce' embedded in the kit being used in their exchanges/comms centers. The media was of course lapping this up and waving it about at the time.

    Awfully quiet now though. So yes, the US does exactly this as it has already been let out of the bag given they did it in iraq. Now they're worried about someone else doing it too? Yes we should be worried. We should (EU) also start asking questions about the US kit as well. Does this also extend to their planes that the EU buys, and ordnan

  • Sure, no problem (Score:3)

    by Krishnoid ( 984597 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:24PM (#58075038) Journal

    What/who are the the other options? I don't have a really good idea of how this space's offerings breaks down along country lines.

  • ... to intensify the development of domestic IT equipment. The European Processor Initiative [e-irg.eu] is one step in such direction. These messages from Trump's administration only reinforce such idea.

  • Some proof, please (Score:3)

    by chrism238 ( 657741 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:40PM (#58075162)
    Could someone, perhaps a willing-to-be-named government official, provide us (technical wizards) with any repeatable proof that Huawei devices 'phone home' to deliver our private information. Or should be just blindly trust our own governments?

  • hahaha.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by SuperDre ( 982372 )
    If there's one country proven not to be trusted, than it's the US. Don't buy US network gear as it's proven to have (had) backdoors for NSA.. So what gear can we trust now?

  • Really, really?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Nations can select between the NSA and GCHQ and a Communist nation.
      Buy expensive brands that the NSA says are approved.
      Buy from Communism and save on tech costs.

      Who will the EU follow?
      The generations of NSA and GCHQ experts in NATO saying only approved tech allows for EU security?
      The budget pressure to save on costs and use tech from China?

      The third option would be to make a treaty in the EU and build on EU nation tech.
      Designed in Denmark, made in Bulgaria. 100% police ready and NATO approved.
      W

  • We'we Huawaiing WAN bits!

  • There are only 4 credible options for 5G (Score:5, Informative)

    by williamyf ( 227051 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @04:45PM (#58075572)

    It will be VERY, and I mean VERY hard to avoid the chinese in 5G rollouts.

    For telecom gear, worldwide, there are only four big guys. All the other are very small players (in telco space).

    Those are:
    Ericsson (sweeden)
    Nokia* (Finland, germany,france,US, and a little more US to boot).
    Huawei (China)
    ZTE (China).

    Of all the 4, Huaweis is the one that has the most complete portfolio for 5G things.

    Al the other players are rather small, say samsung with some basestations and optical telecom gear, NEC with some switches.

    Having said that, mobile operators would be dumb to depend on one provider alone, and rarely do.

    Mobile Operators have certain strategies in place since the dawn of time to mitigate this type of risk.

    For example, in RF you divide the country, say 70-30, 60-40 or 50-25-25 (depending of the size of the country) and assign each region to a different basestation provider. If one of those providers drops the ball (say, by spying on you), you eject them with prejudice. This can also be done in other access technologies, like the DSLAMs in de case of ADSL/VDSL/G.fast. Telefonica/Movistar is one of the operators that does this.

    Other Example, Some operators have what they call provider uniformity in different layers, so, for example, British Telecom uses Huawei gear in the optical transport layer (DWDM). As soon as they bought EE, they ripped all Huawei Switches from the mobile network (of course, they also ripped also all optical equipment that was not Huawei, and replaced it with Huawei equipment). Since all the data is encripted end-to-end, good luck with the optical equipment doing much spying.

    Other techniques exist. So, if an operator (or a country) are concerned about "Chinese Spying", they may as well use chinese gear only in the areas less succeptible to spying. That way you get all the advantages of chinese providers (low cost, easy mass deployment), and lessen the impact on security.

    I have to say that, in general, the more sucess Huawei and ZTE had in the international scene, the less spying they do. Anecdoticaly, the last case I heard about was in the late 00's or early 10's (can remember exactly), when some guys with some operator in LatAm caught a mobile switch beaconing china. A big hoopla ensued, Huawei profusely appologized, swore, crossed their hearts and hope to die never to do it again. Those switches were put under close observation for years, as well as other Huawei gear in other countries (this operator operates in multiples countries), and so far more or less a decade later, no other incidents to report... (If the non Anon Coward comentators can tell us more, jump right in. My NDA was over a few years ago, I you still are under NDA, do not post, anon or not).

    As many have said, thanks to Edward Snowden, we know that the NSA and the five eyes were tampering with western gear to spy. So for many countries, in particular countries in LatAm, Asia, Africa and the middle east, you will either be spied by the 5 eyes or by the chinese, since we do not care one way or the other, let the most cost effective gear win and spay us all.

    * Nokia (from finland, not japan) is the voltron of telecom, having borged Siemens telecoms arm (Germany), Alcatel(france)-Lucent(US), and the Mobile gear arm of motorola(US) (the cellphone arm went to google, and from there to lenovo, and the motorola that remain today is the goverment and emergency services comunications arm)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      The problem is so many networks are used by NATO and EU nations mil.
      Both as collect it all networks and a mil communications networks.
      Communism then has a network deep in the centre of decades of once fully NSA and GCHQ protected Western EU networks.

  • Hypocrisy (Score:5, Informative)

    by peppepz ( 1311345 ) on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @05:20PM (#58075738)
    The current President of the United States of America described the EU as his country's "biggest foe globally" [theguardian.com]. Why would one dispense advice to a foe? The US might as well counsel their new allies, such as Putin, who went to great lengths to help their current President get elected.
    The United States are known to lie to their allies in order to promote their national interests [wikipedia.org], and for this reason their word has no value. Besides, they were caught doing exactly what they are now accusing the Chinese of [wikipedia.org]: by preferring US gear to Chinese gear, Europe would be exchanging possible espionage with certain espionage.

    • You seriously think that the intelligence community is under the control of Trump? They're not. They control themselves and are not under the control of the elected government.

      This is them, under their own authority, declaring that everyone should NOT use gear that is not backdoored by them.

      And yeah, the EU and NATO have been real shitheads to America. Ungrateful freeloading jerks who take American security for granted and have no problem unloading vile abuse on a daily basis. There is absolutely n

      • And yeah, the EU and NATO have been real shitheads to America.

        To the US? They worship their culture, purchase their products, uphold their doctrine, blindly follow them into all the wars that they have started for domestic interests and that have made Europe a less safe place. I don't think so.

        and have no problem unloading vile abuse on a daily basis

        Can you make some examples of a political leader of the EU telling anything vile or abusive about the US, or any other country? (Visegrad countries don't co

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