Hawaii Lawmakers Chewing on Ban of Plastic Utensils, Bottles and Food Containers (hawaiinewsnow.com) 112
Plastic bags are out. Plastic straws are on their way out. Now Hawaii lawmakers want to take things a big step further. From a report: They're considering an outright ban on all sorts of single-use plastics common in the food and beverage industry, from plastic bottles to plastic utensils to plastic containers. Senate Bill 522 has already passed through two committees and is on its way to two more. Supporters say it's an ambitious and broad measure that would position Hawaii as a leader in the nation -- and ensure that Hawaii's oceans have a fighting chance as the global plastic pollution problem worsens. But others worry about the practicality of such a proposal.
Great idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a great idea so long as they still permit compostables. Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources, so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral. They do have to be tested to make sure they only break down into harmless compounds, though. We should be doing this everywhere.
Re:Great idea... (Score:5, Informative)
I thought the predecessor to plastic straws were paper ones?
While many feel this necessitates having straws that turn into cellulose pulp in your mouth, this is not true. Coating the paper with a biodegradable wax, like carnuba, would solve the problem nicely, as would the use of modified starch coatings.
I agree that biodegradable plastics are ideal for disposable cutlery and pals, but they also tend toward being brittle and crack prone, which makes straws problematic.
For much of packaging that currently uses plastic, we can be using a variety of other, much more environmentally sensible materials, which would do the job just as well-- not necessarily biodegrading plastics.
And yeah, we SHOULD be doing it everywhere.
Industry doesn't want to do it. Plastic is a very versatile and inexpensive material that lends itself very well to commercial mass production. Getting food vendors away from that inexpensive and versatile packaging is hard. Especially when the packaging companies themselves lobby to deter that thinking.
Re:Paper was fine (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, and unlike plastic straws, cocaine didn't tend to stick to the inside of paper straws.
Um, at least that's what I've heard. I think I read it in a book.
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So I heard from associates.
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Market Summary > Weyerhaeuser Co
NYSE: WY
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Buy now.
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Industry doesn't want to do it. Plastic is a very versatile and inexpensive material that lends itself very well to commercial mass production.
It isn't that industry doesn't want to do it, it's that no one wants to buy these because plastic is a cheaper, better alternative for what the product is designed to do. If these biodegradable straws were less expensive to produce, we'd already be doing that. There simply aren't enough consumers who care more about being green or doing what's right for the planet than there are people who simply want the lowest cost option. No manufacturer wants to pay to retool their production line only to make themselve
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it's that no one wants to buy these
My local grocery store stocks compostable cups and utensils, so someone is buying them.
They are more expensive, but mass production could reduce the price.
Disclaimer: I use glass and metal, and rinse them for reuse.
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>"If these biodegradable straws were less expensive to produce, we'd already be doing that"
Possibly. But not if they are annoying inferior. And that is exactly what non-plastic straws have been (from what I have seen).... Woefully inferior. Not enough strength to insert through a lid, horrible mouth feel, sticky, limited use life (like when you set your drink down for a few hours), leak prone, etc.
I am certainly not opposed to having alternatives available, even if they are less ideal and more expens
Re:Great idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought the predecessor to plastic straws were paper ones?
While many feel this necessitates having straws that turn into cellulose pulp in your mouth, this is not true. Coating the paper with a biodegradable wax, like carnuba, would solve the problem nicely, as would the use of modified starch coatings.
That doesn't line up with my memory of paper straws, even wax-coated, back in the 60s. "Sometimes lasted the whole drink"... maybe. And they didn't give refills back then.
I've used some of the more recent paper straws, now that the plastic ones have been declared Politically Incorrect in some jurisdictions in California. They're much thicker than the ones I recall from the 1960s ... and they fall apart more quickly. I'm not sure if they contain any wax. They didn't seem to. Probably because wax is petroleum based (IA! IA!!! EVIL EVIL EVIL!!!!) or beeswax (Exploitation of non-consenting lifeforms!! Evil!!!) or something. There's always something.
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There's a restaurant down in Florida that uses pasta for straws. It works surprisingly well, and they don't have to worry about the plastic ending up being eaten by the gulls and other wildlife by the marina there.
Re:Great idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a great idea so long as they still permit compostables. Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources, so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral. They do have to be tested to make sure they only break down into harmless compounds, though. We should be doing this everywhere.
Even if you take the "green" reasoning out of the argument to ban plastics, this might make sense from a business perspective for Hawaii. Hawaii relies a lot on tourism. Plastic trash is the enemy of pristine beaches, volcanos and scenic overlooks.
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Plus, the area they have to service is limited. It used to be feasible to sell drinks etc. in reusable bottles because they could be easily collected. If you only have one bottling plant for all of New England, then single use might be cheaper (for the bottler). But Hawaii is small, and reusing bottles on the Island rather than shipping them in from the mainland might be easier
Re: Great idea... (Score:2)
Re: Great idea... (Score:2)
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Don't worry, the Democrats won't stop trying to ban things until they've covered their whole list, which per the AOC “Green New Deal” includes banning [documentcloud.org]:
all forms of plastic and fossil fuels,
all carbon emissions, regardless of source,
all nuclear power plants,
non-union jobs related to renewable energy (or anything to do with the GND),
airplanes,
and famously, farting cows.
But don't worry, they'll guarantee:
And hey, they even have momentum:
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But Hawaii is small, and reusing bottles on the Island rather than shipping them in from the mainland might be easier
How small do you think Hawaii really is? There are seven permanently inhabited main islands for a total of 6,419 square miles (almost 11,000 if you count state waters). The state is 1,522 miles long.
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Plastic trash is the enemy of pristine beaches, volcanos and scenic overlooks.
Dude, volcanoes calls your plastic and raises 1100 degrees.
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Trash thrown *into* the volcano, sure. Trash left littered around the mouth of the volcano will remain there until the next eruption...
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It's a great idea so long as they still permit compostables. Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources, so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral. They do have to be tested to make sure they only break down into harmless compounds, though. We should be doing this everywhere.
Compostable packaging stuff isn't plastic - which is a petroleum by-product. So make sure the law in question is written to not accidentally exclude it. Also be careful that the law doesn't neglect to ban Styrofoam packaging which isn't much used but is a substitute or else they'll just get the same problem in a different form.
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Not necessarily. Plastic is a category of materials based on their mechanical properties. Specifically, their plasticity--- especially thermoplasticity.
A variety of materials can be derived from plant feed stocks such as starches or waxes, which have plastic properties, and can reliably be referred to as plastics. One such material is rayon. it is chemically reprocessed cellulose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Other such materials are PLA and PHA.
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Not necessarily. Plastic is a category of materials based on their mechanical properties. Specifically, their plasticity.
I think you illustrated my point perfectly - step one is the legislature writes up a law and gets it signed by the executive. Step two however is when said law is converted into actual legal code for enforcement. If the bureaucrats define "plastic" as a petroleum by-product (the stuff that takes ages to decompose that is the concern here) then you're all set. If they define "plastic" as a material based on its plasticity then the biodegradable corn based, etc, replacements are all banned too.
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Think it only affects sea creatures (Score:2)
I've seen similar disturbing images, but an interesting aspect of all the ones I have seen is they involve sea life. Why should people well away from any coast have to cease using plastic straws as well? Straws on land are ugly but they don't seem to attract animals in the same way that harms them (that said, if I say any straws laying on the ground now when out walking I pick them up and throw them out).
Compostable vs biodegradable (Score:2)
Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources, so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral.
There is no requirement that something that is compostable be produced from renewable sources. It can be but it does not have to be. Being compostable just means it can break down safely into compost. And just because something is derived from renewable materials does not automatically mean it is carbon neutral. If the energy inputs to process the material are not carbon neutral then it is unlikely the product itself will be.
They do have to be tested to make sure they only break down into harmless compounds, though.
I think you are conflating biodegradable [wikipedia.org] plastic with compostable. Compostab
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Compostable plastics are produced from renewable sources,
There is no requirement that something that is compostable be produced from renewable sources,
I didn't say there was any such requirement. However, the vast majority are currently being made from renewable sources, primarily corn starch. Most corn is grown without irrigation, and the rest of the corn plant is also good for something, e.g. corn cobs into rayon, and corn stalks into building materials. Next time, I'll try to get that qualifier in there for you.
so they even have the potential to be carbon-neutral.
And just because something is derived from renewable materials does not automatically mean it is carbon neutral.
Your leg is jerking so hard you seem to have lost the ability to read. I never said that either. What happened to you? Take a knock on the nogg
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Yes, everywhere we need to do this. Get rid of the trash piling up like mad. Paper and glass is much better. Saw a show where a guy had a company that is starting to make bio Styrofoam type stuff out of fungi.
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Saw a show where a guy had a company that is starting to make bio Styrofoam type stuff out of fungi.
Yeah, I think that kind of thing is awesome. We also have compostable PLA foam now, my local supermarket is using it for those trays they sell meats on. They still have to wrap them in old school plastic, but it eliminates the polystyrene tray.
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A leader in pointless dumbassery.
So we should just do nothing? And keep being part of the problem?
Are you one of those "America, Love It or Leave It" types?
If you're not loving this, feel free to leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I think we can all see who the leader in pointless dumbassery is here. Thanks for playing.
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There is no problem with plastic. There is only a problem with garbage being dumped at sea. Changing packaging to reduce our standard of living doesn't address the problem of garbage being dumped at sea.
Re:Bad Idea (Score:4, Interesting)
The main problem with plastics is not people in Hawaii or California drinking out of plastic straws. It's third world countries that don't give a damn about the environment, don't recycle, and spew their waste everywhere. In fact most US Corporations do give a damn about product lifecycle because the people who work in, and own those corporations are Americans, and don't want to live in a polluted S***hole. That's why the US doesn't have garbage in the streets and generally has a good handle on waste management.
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We've had what, 50-60 years now where companies have done whatever they wanted with packaging and we can see the results.
You should actuallty talk to someone in the industry before spreading FUD. The materials dumped from 50-60 years ago were much more dangerous and hard to break down than the waste produced today (Asbestos, Lead, etc).
Asbestos was never a common constituent of disposable packaging. Lead was, and it took legal action to get it out. All you've done here is proven that the industry won't wipe its own ass unless required to do so by law backed up by stiff penalties.
All the news stories about plastic taking hundreds or thousands of years to degrade is utter nonesense. In modern waste management, waste is composted and reaches extremely high temperatures where plastics readily break down.
If only that were germane to the current discussion, you might have a point, but we're talking about unmanaged waste and as such you do not.
The main problem with plastics is not people in Hawaii or California drinking out of plastic straws. It's third world countries that don't give a damn about the environment, don't recycle, and spew their waste everywhere.
The main problem with plastic trash on Hawaiian beaches is people in Hawaii mishandling plastic trash. And plastic from Amer
Re:Bad Idea (Score:4, Funny)
Also, the government should never have banned lead-based paint or gasoline. Drunk driving can be handled by private industry putting breathalyzers on the steering wheel if the buyer wants it. The FDA should be abolished.
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no get yourself glasses.
Power is a zero sum game (Score:2, Interesting)
This is correct. Example:
0.001% of the plastic in the ocean is plastic straws
60% is discarded fishing equipment
The neo-liberal reaction was to ban plastic straws. This is pure propaganda, and in their ignorance makes middle class people feel good about themselves.
Normal people (in aggregate) simply don't consume enough of literally anything (including gasoline) to make an impact.
The super-rich cause the vast majority of all environmental degradation. The rich foul the environment, and we have to clean it up
Tourist trap (Score:1)
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Re:Tourist trap (Score:4, Informative)
Ever been to Glass Beach [wikipedia.org]?
No, but I've been to Glass Beach [wikipedia.org]. (Sadly, most of the glass is gone now, but I got a great piece on my last visit, it's the Coca-Cola script logo off an old bottle on which the words were highly raised.)
Everybody loves beach glass. I've previously proposed that what we do with glass instead of recycling it is just dump it, at least for glass near a coast. But then there's the problem of peak sand [wired.com]...
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Already starting to happen on the west coast (Score:5, Insightful)
Lots of compostable, corn-based or other plant-based single use silverware avalible now. It's about 10-15% more expensive, but right now the cost is about $free so,
Paper bags are pretty popular in larger cities, Safeway near my house has tried to introduce thicker plastic bags to meet the "Reusable" mandate by the city, but locals are still requesting paper.
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Safeway has "reusable" plastic bags... my experience with plastic bags is that 95% of them blow away in to the forest, street curb etc and end up in the water ways. Maybe the "reusable" bags are heavy enough to not blow away.... Paper bags can blow away too, but they tend to biodegrade in the gutter/forest/pipe to the ocean, or failing that, biodegrade in the ocean in 2-9 months.....
The other big problem with plastic bags is that they don't neatly stand up on their own. Most of our trash/recycle bag
More autoclaves? (Score:1)
Plastic utensils are off course overused, but will you make sure both the food and health industry sanitizes whatever other method available properly?
What is the cost of acquiring, operating and inspecting an autoclave system with the volume required for eg. a McDonalds. How will we deal with the massive amounts of trash and green house gasses metal utensils will generate for both more resource intensive production, heavier transportation and proper disposal (as well as people simply throwing them into the
What are you talking about? (Score:5, Insightful)
Plastic utensils are off course overused, but will you make sure both the food and health industry sanitizes whatever other method available properly?
Such requirements are already in place. Ever eaten at a non-fast food restaurant? It's a solved problem. A dishwasher is entirely adequate when dealing with "real" utensils.
What is the cost of acquiring, operating and inspecting an autoclave system with the volume required for eg. a McDonalds.
Zero because they don't need one. There are perfectly viable alternatives to plastic utensils. Not to mention that most of their menu does not require cutlery of any description. In case you weren't aware most of their menu is sandwiches and finger food.
How will we deal with the massive amounts of trash and green house gasses metal utensils will generate for both more resource intensive production, heavier transportation and proper disposal (as well as people simply throwing them into the landfill-destined garbage)?
Nobody is going to use disposable metal utensils. Nobody is even proposing that idea.
Perhaps we need to develop non-plastic, compostable utensils
Already done. They exist today.
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Dishwashers work in low-volume, non-drive through and even there, (local) low-end restaurants generally aren't as clean as is required from a chain. Most rules that apply to chains don't apply to local restaurants regards hygiene and there will be an absolute media circus.
There are no viable alternatives that require no trash/greenhouse gas generation that I know off. There are 'green' disposables, they generally contain plastics and are chemically very similar to plastics so they won't decompose as fast wh
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There are 'green' disposables, they generally contain plastics and are chemically very similar to plastics so they won't decompose as fast while still gassing off during the process (methane in particular).
First, "plastic" doesn't mean "petroleum". You can have compostable plastics made from plants. Second, the vast majority of compostable plastic cutlery is made from corn starch, and is suitable for backyard composting. Third, it's the city of St. Petersburg and not the state Florida which is banning single-use plastic straws, but a) they are banning alternatives, including multi-use plastic straws, and b) the ban does not go into effect until 2020. You are wrong on literally every point.
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Compostable alternatives do not (yet) exist. There are some on the market, but as I pointed out above, they generally contain language like "not for backyard composting" or "compostable in industrial facilities only". Most of them still contain plastics or are coated with them and the jury is still out on whether they are better or may even be worse (plastic granules and chemicals worse than plastic in production and decomposition).
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Food Service Industry (Score:2)
I always wonder how this really works in the food service industry, beyond the customer-facing stuff. Much of the single-use product in the kitchen is to prevent contamination. It would be great though if Starbucks stopped pouring my iced tea in a disposable plastic cup before pouring that into my reusable cup though.
Hawaii will not be able to pull this off though. They have so little local packaging (or production) of products that they lack any control of what is in the grocery stores. Maybe they can
Grasping at Straws vs. Stormwater Runoff in LCDs (Score:5, Interesting)
Most ocean pollution comes from litter in fast-growing coastal cities in Asia, Africa and South America. It would make a lot more sense to deal with litter in emerging markets than to tinker with the kind of waste that goes into rich country waste treatment facilities. I say this as a professional recycler and environmentalist. The "grasping at straws" approach makes people (and journalists) feel like their doing something, which can actually result in "moral licensing".
A better approach is "fair trade recycling offsets", which are patterned after carbon trading. Let plastic utensil makers sell to people who want / need them, but let them offset by collecting as much litter from places like Lagos and Jakarta as they produce. It would mean less command-and-control by government, and reduce a lot more ocean waste.
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Most ocean pollution comes from litter in fast-growing coastal cities in Asia, Africa and South America.
You know, maybe, just maybe Hawaii is most concerned not about plastic in the 350 million odd square kilometers of open ocean, but in the few hundred square kilometers of ocean around the Hawaiian islands.
And guess where most of the plastic just off the Hawaiian coast (you know, the plastic that impacts fishing, beach culture, and via tourism the economy) comes from?
Most plastic doesn't travel that far. Your recycling trading scheme would be utterly useless for cleaning up the waters around Hawaii & mak
plastic bottles (Score:5, Informative)
Topping the list of items found polluting our beaches and waterways were 2.4 million cigarette butts, which contain plastic filters. That was followed by 1.7 million food wrappers and 1.6 million plastic water bottles.
Forgot about cigarette butts. And that is one of the major polluters. First world nations may be cutting back on this product, but that is not necessarily the truth in third world nations.
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Is the solution is banning filters on cigarettes?
That's not necessary to solve this problem, but it would help solve another problem, which is that animals sometimes eat the filters (yeah, dumb ones, but the dumb ones can be important to the food chain too) and then die. This is actually a problem with butts as well, however, because the butt winds up acting as a filter as well — it's just not as effective as the actual filter. Still, we can solve the plastic problem by banning plastic filters. They make cotton ones, too. Cotton is the original perf
Why not make littering illegal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh wait...
I saw a stat that suggest that as much as 80% of the plastic waste in the ocean is fishing netting. The vast majority of the rest is supposedly from underdeveloped counties. Something like 0.1% of the plastic waste in the ocean is from the U.S. So these laws won't make a difference in the whole scheme of things.
Why not focus on the real problems that will have a real effect?
Are are there alternative motives involved?
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Go to an island country and look at the shit on the beaches. It isn't 80% fishing netting, it's plastic bottles, fag butts disposable plastic crap.
Getting rid of that will make the beaches cleaner.
Working on sorting out the fishing netting can be done in parallel, it isn't a do only one or the other situation.
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Go to an island country and look at the shit on the beaches. It isn't 80% fishing netting, it's plastic bottles, fag butts disposable plastic crap.
Getting rid of that will make the beaches cleaner.
Working on sorting out the fishing netting can be done in parallel, it isn't a do only one or the other situation.
That's why I said "IN THE OCEAN". Beaches are easy to clean by comparison.
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>"Why not focus on the real problems that will have a real effect?"
Because the "left" is typically more interested in "feelings" than in facts. They want to feel like what they are doing makes a difference, while ignoring the cost and impact of such changes (like everything costing more, inferior experiences, few actual benefits, and unintended consequences). It is no different than illogical extreme gun control where the facts show most of it doesn't work and usually makes the problems FAR WORSE, but
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You are asking why the Hawaii legislature doesn't legislate for other countries...
Nope. Didn't say it. Didn't even imply it. I said focus on real problems that will make a difference.
Why not make drug use illegal? (Score:2)
All we have to do is make it illegal, and then everyone will stop doing it!
You go after the suppliers because there are less of them, not because they are the whole problem. You tackle problems in ways that will let you feasibly solve them, not the way in which you'd like to.
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Oh wait...
I saw a stat that suggest that as much as 80% of the plastic waste in the ocean is fishing netting. The vast majority of the rest is supposedly from underdeveloped counties. Something like 0.1% of the plastic waste in the ocean is from the U.S. So these laws won't make a difference in the whole scheme of things.
Why not focus on the real problems that will have a real effect?
Are are there alternative motives involved?
is it too hard to understand that someone has to go first? or maybe that we have to try things out to see how well they work? do you even understand problem solving at all?
Based on the stats, I would say that we are well in the lead. Only 0.1% of the plastic waste in the ocean is tied to the US and we probably consume the most plastic products in the world. Why punish an economy that has had the best results? I think that is a legitimate question.
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Why punish an economy that has had the best results? I think that is a legitimate question.
Because what's happened so far is not enough, and also because there are localized effects of pollution like trash on beaches which have been heavily discussed in this discussion, which you'd know if only you had bothered to read it.
More stupid costs that won't solve anything. (Score:1)
This is a stupid idea because Hawaii is not the problem. over 90 % of ocean plastic waste comes form 10 rivers in asia and africa A fraction of a percent of the problem is caused by the first world. Spending all this money trying to scrape the last fraction of a percent out of the first world is really stupid when there are people in the third world literally dumping their plastic trash right into the river. If you want to actually solve a problem focus on the biggest causers of the problem first!
Stupid. (Score:2)
No soda, no dish soap, no salad oil, fresh meat, frozen vegetables, fresh vegetables (packaged).... it goes on.
Take a walk down the aisle of a grocery store and see how many food items are packaged in plastic.
Now eliminate all of them from the shelves of the grocery store.
That's what you'll have.
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No soda, no dish soap, no salad oil, fresh meat, frozen vegetables, fresh vegetables (packaged).... it goes on.
You have no clue what you're talking about. You don't even have to read the bill to understand that you're talking bananas. TFA [hawaiinewsnow.com] makes it clear what they actually propose to ban:
"a leader in the nation"? (Score:2)
And yet it's not even close to being the first time that was used to promote legislation.