Amazon Prime Air Cargo Plane Crashes in Texas, Three Dead (weather.com) 118
An anonymous reader quotes Weather.com:
An Amazon Prime Air cargo plane crashed Saturday afternoon into Trinity Bay near Anahuac, Texas, as it approached Houston's George Bush Intercontinental Airport. Three crew members aboard the plane did not survive the crash, the Chamber County sheriff told WJTV. Air traffic controllers lost radar and radio contact with Atlas Air Flight 3591 shortly before 12:45 p.m. CST. The 767 jetliner was arriving from Miami when the crash occurred 30 miles southeast of the airport, according to a statement by the Federal Aviation Administration.
It was me, I did it. (Score:1)
I ordered a pair of socks, next day air, clearly my fault.
I feel so guilty.
Where will they bury the survivors?
Re:It was me, I did it. (Score:5, Informative)
Where will they bury the survivors?
I don't think that burying survivors is legal.
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It is in Djibouti.
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[Disclaimer: I'm not the GP AC.]
You may have just been whooshed. The joke is "a plane crashes on the border of <insert two places you don't like>. Where do they bury the survivors?"
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No, I've heard this joke a million times but couldn't resist.
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That's best done when landing.
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Not if you really want that "Maximum carry capacity of any flight" award.
That would take cremation pre-flight; but that would get that carry rate metric up to 20k per flight, and that's the important thing, the metrics.
Look at it this way, the airline has a 100% "Flight survival rate", even if it crashes! /s
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Burying the survivors has a more powerful deterrent effect, you must admit.
Re: It was me, I did it. (Score:2)
That sounds like an "in soviet Russia" joke.
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I don't think there were any survivors to bury.
Sorry to hear they died. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sorry to hear they died. (Score:5, Interesting)
This happened just West of me. Reports are sketchy but a witness said there was a sound like lightning. We have very light rain and no reports of a thunderstorm in the area.
The water at the impact site is only 1-5 feet deep. We used to get fresh oysters from there.
Looking at the overhead shots, I didn't see am impact crater. I would expect one because it's a marshy area.
No witnesses reported an impact fireball. When planes hit the ground, avgas hits the jets and it's BOOM!
The debris field shows very small pieces as if the plane had a catastrophic unplanned disassembly before crashing.
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It's clear you don't work for the FAA or NTSB.
He never said he did.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
At least he added some interesting information to the story.
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Thanks. I was in Uncle Sam's Yacht Club for 9 years as part of the air group on air craft carriers and at NAS Jax, NAS Key West, NS Mayport, NAS San Diego.
I've seen some things and, like OP, I too am very sorry to hear that there are no survivors.
They're going after the black box now.
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No. The black box records just about every instrument on board and it can be installed on a simulator to reproduce the last few moments of flight. I've never heard of a black box blowing up.
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Actually, it's fluorescent orange with strips of reflective tape that help in locating the box. Also, the box has a pinger that hydrophones can listen to under water for echolocation.
If the box is covered with mud (these waters are shallow), that nay not be a lot of help.
--
BLACK BOX
It's a term used in avionics to generically describe any electronic box on board be it radar, altimeter, airspeed, radios, and the like.
I was a flight deck troubleshooter aboard the aircraft carrier USS Wasp. When something avion
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I don't think it was a bomb, but I have no way of knowing. I'd expect witnesses reporting a mid-flight fireball if it was a bomb.
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Update:
The local authorities have found the remains of two (2) persons, as yet unidentified. A third is still missing.
They said they responded to reports that an aircraft went down in that area. Appreciate that the shallow bay is quite large. Normally, they would look for an oil sheen but there was none.
It wasn't until they spotted the debris field, composed of many small pieces and packages, that they were able to pinpoint the area.
I find it very odd that there was no fireball, either in the air or on the
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See how long it took you to make a distinction? Aboard an aircraft carrier, it's controlled chaos. We had a mixture of prop and jet. We didn't have time for hydrocarbon molecular chain discussions.
We just called it avgas.
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Read this real slow and you can move your lips, OK?
Avgas is a term we used to generically describe any fuel used for aviation.
Aboard a carrier, we had a mixture of aircraft and you can call it gasoline, or kerosene, or whatever you want.
That's you.
We called it "gas that went into an airplane," or "avgas." We weren't interested in semantics.
Re:Sorry to hear they died. (Score:5, Insightful)
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"3 People lost their lives. That is 'stuff that matters' even if you didn't know them."
Am I supposed to care because they were pilots, or because they might have been transporting something I ordered? Asking for the 150,000 other people who died the same day, but won't be mentioned on slashdot because they aren't part of delivering our future landfill stuffing.
Nice job editors (Score:2, Insightful)
This story would bring nothing but snarky remarks. The editors should know this. I'm blaming them for posting it and not the people making the comments, it's what you get on the internet.
However, there is nothing in this story at this time that merits and sort of actual discussion.
Checked my in-flight shipping ... (Score:1)
out of all the things that Amazon ships all over the place daily, very few people will have their packages delayed over 1 flight.
Sorry to hear about the people killed. A B767 has been a fairly safe aircraft over the decades. The NTSB+Boeing will figure out the cause with this one too and make all our travels a little safer. At least it was mostly "stuff" on the plane and not mostly people.
That won't help the families of those 3 who died.
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Maybe, just maybe, humour is how people deal with the horrific terror that death instils in us all...
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There's a reason it's called gallows humor. We laugh, because if you scream continuously they put you in the looney bin.
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This story would bring nothing but snarky remarks.
And yet the only remark with a positive moderation isn't snarky at all. You have a crap view of the world. /snark.
Not Amazon Air (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not Amazon Air (Score:5, Informative)
Amazon doesn't operate the flights. They contract that out to Atlas and two others. The plane was likely dedicated to Amazon Air flights and had an Amazon Air livery painted on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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It did. This is the plane that crashed https://www.planespotters.net/photo/917927/n1217a-amazon-prime-air-boeing-767-375erbcfwl
Possible mechanical problem (Score:1)
By media reports, there were at least 5 eyewitnesses to the events leading up to the crash. The eyewitnesses report that the plane appeared to be having mechanical troubles with the pilot fighting for control.
That's unreliable info, but if true it would point towards a maintenance or mechanical problem with the plane, rather than pilot error. (Many crashes are caused by pilot error, so that's not unheard of).
Gotta be horrifying for the crew, to be powerless.
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That's unreliable info, but if true it would point towards a maintenance or mechanical problem with the plane, rather than pilot error.
I wonder what's the likelihood that the underlying cause is due to this Amazon Prime plane not actually being a genuine Boeing 767, but instead just a Chinese counterfeit.
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That's what they get for buying a plane from a supplier with co-mingled inventory.
Re:Possible mechanical problem (Score:4, Insightful)
By media reports, there were at least 5 eyewitnesses to the events leading up to the crash. The eyewitnesses report that the plane appeared to be having mechanical troubles with the pilot fighting for control.
That's unreliable info, but if true it would point towards a maintenance or mechanical problem with the plane, rather than pilot error. (Many crashes are caused by pilot error, so that's not unheard of).
Gotta be horrifying for the crew, to be powerless.
Actually, in this case it looks to me like a weight and balance issue. Of course, anything that happens when you are low and slow can cause you to ball it up pretty quick and not have any warning. Weight and balance could make it impossible to control the aircraft's attitude and only become apparent as the aircraft slows down for it's approach.
So, my leading theory is that the load wasn't properly secured and shifted though the turbulence they where experiencing or during takeoff. Then as they where slowing down for the approach they couldn't keep the aircraft in trim and control the attitude. They either stalled and couldn't recover or couldn't keep the noise up as they where adding flaps and putting the gear down which involves some pretty big trim changes.
Another possible issue is a micro-burst. It was very windy and thunderstorms where around but they where way above the critical altitude to allow recovery and pilots are highly trained for recovery from any hint of this these days. They didn't seem to be low enough for this to have killed them.
It could be pilot error, but when you are an ATP rated pilot flying this kind of aircraft, even in the right seat, you have a lot of experience. It is unlikely you are going to ball it up w/o somebody in the cockpit catching your mistake. Pilot mistakes do happen, but that's why there are two and why one flies while the other monitors these days. I put pilot error at #2 on my list for this crash.
For pilot error, the most likely mode here is an "over stress" of the aircraft. They where in rough weather, it was very bumpy, and it's easy to apply too much control pressure and structurally damage the aircraft. Such damage can break your ability to control the aircraft. The most dangerous thing that's happened is pilots who applied too much rudder and the tail departs the aircraft as a result. In this case, it seems the aircraft was not missing it's tail, so I don't think this happened, though it's possible that mechanical damage got done, rendering the tail useless.
Mechanical issues are on the very bottom of my list of possible causes. It's possible something went wrong with the horizontal stabilizer and, like the weight and balance problem, they lost pitch control at the exact wrong time, but due to the huge safety issues with this part of the aircraft, there are backups of backups for controlling this. It's possible, but unlikely unless there are serious maintenance problems with the airline and the FAA's inspectors are asleep on the job.
So, mechanical issues are about the last thing on the possible list that I would investigate. My list goes, weight and balance, pilot error, weather, aircraft system failure (maintenance).
However, the NTSB will look at everything. They likely have the flight data recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder already recovered and are in the process of dumping the data now. My guess is they will pretty quickly know what caused this one. We have the complete aircraft and the black boxes. There is unlikely to be much question as to what exactly happened.
Breaking news links (Score:5, Informative)
Condolences to those who knew the pilots. Fortunately no victims on the ground.
Its too soon to say what caused this tragedy. Weather? Package? Other?
Whatever it was, the plane appears to have suddenly gone from a mile high to ground impact in about 10 seconds.
https://www.flightradar24.com/... [flightradar24.com]
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/2... [cnbc.com]
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
https://www.click2houston.com/... [click2houston.com]
https://www.flightglobal.com/n... [flightglobal.com]
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I strongly doubt it.
Boeing has been building heavy airplanes for a long time. They know how to do it, and they know how to do it safely.
If memory serves me, the last airplane Boeing built that required that kind of planning and in-flight fuel management (and hence a flight engineer in the cockpit) was the 747.
This sounds like something went suddenly, badly wrong.
And: I have friends who are former, current, and future pilots, including airline pilots. I get this really sick feeling whenever I hear about so
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I am a pilot - from what they are saying on the air, it sounds like they hit some turbulence that caused massive structural damage. If the pilots had been in a working cockpit, there would have been at least a broken transmission. No clicks means the pilots couldn't push the talk button (which is on the control wheel, where there hands would be anyway).
Probably an in air breakup, nothing they could do. Hopefully they find the cause and prevent recurrence - unfortunately, accidents are often the way that new
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Structural damage is possible, thunderstorms where in the area, however, we don't hear any of the eye witnesses reporting anything but a fully assembled aircraft crashing.
It's possible they partially removed the tail though excessive control inputs during an upset recovery, or at least did enough damage to make the tail stop working. However, if the aircraft was fully assembled, this doesn't seem likely. Also, structural damage isn't common on approach as the aircraft is slowing down, approaching V(sub0
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I am a pilot ... If the pilots had been in a working cockpit, there would have been at least a broken transmission.
No you are not a pilot.. I'm only a private pilot with about 100 hours experience and even I know better than this.
One of the first things my instructor taught me about emergencies is that you follow this list. 1. Aviate (you fly the aircraft first). 2. Navigate (You keep track of where you are second). 3. Communicate - (Comes last). IF you where a pilot, you'd know that list because you would have practiced that list. When you are dealing with an emergency, the LAST thing you want to do is talk to so
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Like I said.. The FIRST thing you do is fly. Communicating is way down the priority list.
This event happened quickly, they went from a normal descent into a +6000 FPS one in really short order and watching their heading changes tells me they stalled and spun. The lack of communication isn't an indicator of a structural failure, when you find yourself in a dire situation your first job is to recover the aircraft, diagnose enough of the problem to keep from balling it up. That job does not include mashing t
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Like I said.. The FIRST thing you do is fly. Communicating is way down the priority list.
And like I said, communicating that you have an emergency is a trivial task that can happen in parallel with other high priority things. When you get a bit more experience you'll figure that out. In other words, "FIRST" is not a synonym for "ONLY".
My flight instructor was right. The controllers are going to get chatty,
Jesus, if you cannot ignore a controller while you're trying to aviate, then you really should not be in the cockpit at all. They WILL call you when THEY want to call you, and you might be in the middle of something important. The skill of either simply ignoring
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One last time, see rule # 1.
https://www.pea.com/blog/posts... [pea.com]
Or from the AOPA https://www.aopa.org/news-and-... [aopa.org]
OR gives practical examples of what happens when you don't http://iflyamerica.org/safety_... [iflyamerica.org]
Even NASA agrees with me, and I'm no rocket scientist. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/... [nasa.gov]
Pay close attention to the conclusions in the PDF where it clearly indicates that ATC conversations are a hindrance to task management, not a help, and clearly justifies my reluctance to engage them in conversat
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ATC conversations are a hindrance
How many times do I have to say this? You aren't having an "ATC conversation", you're declaring an emergency. One sentence. All of your citations talk about "communicate". That's more than declaring the emergency. It's doing all the other communications that can wait until the aircraft is in control.
It's pretty simple. Too simple, I guess. If ATC tries to "chat" (your description of them responding to an emergency declaration) when you can't talk to them, YOU IGNORE THEM. Is th
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this is horrible and my thoughts go out to the pilots and the families of the pilots
my *guess* is that ntsb is going to discover a miscalculation of weight and balance vis a vis fuel burn that rendered the airframe no longer flyable
My guess is weight and balance, but that it changed during flight due to shifting cargo (or less likely was loaded wrong). At least that's my leading theory. For some reason some cargo broke loose or wasn't properly restrained and though the turbulence they where having moved. Then as they where slowing down for landing they lost pitch control. They either stalled it (my guess) and couldn't recover due to an aft CG shift outside of the controllable limits, or couldn't bring the nose up with the gear and
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ATC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Always gut-wrenching hearing people talk while clueless it'll be their last words. 7000fpm descent at the end. RIP.
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I have a family member in Air Traffic Control (Score:5, Informative)
I asked a family member in Air Traffic Control (ATC) on what happens from an ATC perspective when this type of thing happens. It just happens that my family member knew the protocols and could share what is available publicly since they were working at the time of the accident.
They were under the Houston Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON). This facility handles aircraft after departure usually up to 17,000 feet and arrivals descending from 17,000 feet. On the ATC tapes, you can hear them call “Giant 3591” several times but no response. Then they ask a United flight if he was picking up an ELT (Emergency Locator Transmitter). After a crash, the aircraft automatically sends a signal on a dedicated frequency so that it can be found. Additionally, we would call any nearby aircraft/helicopter to report coordinates and what they see to initiate response teams.
https://flightaware.com/live/f... [flightaware.com]
Re:I have a family member in Air Traffic Control (Score:4, Insightful)
How in the hell is there a thread where there is amusement on the event?
Pilots died flying Amazon cargo for the convenience WE expect as a service. These are people that have families, so let that sink in for a bit. How can anyone discount the fact that people risk their lives to deliver random things we order online.
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In a small city, more people died in car crashes today.
There are billions of people in the world. If you're upset by 3 deaths, turn off the internet, unplug everything, and drop off the grid.
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A lot of nerds spend a lot of time researching how to get humans and machines to play nicely. These tradgeties should be discussed to prevent similar failures in the future. Failures in aviation are often catastrophic, but the failure modes can be found in any industry. This type of technical/human errors should.. you know...matter.
Re: I have a family member in Air Traffic Control (Score:1)
That doesn't have a damn thing to do with why they're talking shit. "There just joking, brah, mellow out" is the refrain of the world's biggest douchebags
Amazon Delusion Syndrome? (Score:2)
Tech angle of this story seems kind of minimal, but I was interested in terms of logistics optimization and the ways of high-tech corporate cancers (AKA Amazon). I'm confident that Amazon is using sophisticated knapsack algorithms to pack their chartered planes to capacity--but that should not have been a factor in this crash since it was coming in for a landing. By that point in the flight, the plane would be much lighter because of all the fuel it had consumed on route. However, I am confident that Amazon