U.S. Students Have Achieved World Domination in Computer Science Skills -- For Now (ieee.org) 194
When it comes to computer science skills, U.S. students approaching graduation have a significant advantage over their peers in China, India, and Russia. Tekla Perry shares a report: That's the conclusion of a study published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. The study was put together by a global team of researchers led by Prashant Loyalka, an assistant professor at Stanford University. The team constructed a careful sampling mechanism to select senior (typically fourth year) computer science or equivalent students in each of the four countries, making sure that both the educational institutions and students enrolled at those schools were statistically representative of schools and computer science students throughout the respective nations. The sampling also ensured that study participants represented both elite and non-elite universities.
The final selection included 6847 students from the U.S., 678 from China, 364 from India, and 551 from Russia. Once the students were selected, the researchers then administered the Major Field Test in Computer Science, an exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service and is regularly updated. The exam was translated for the students in China and Russia. When the researchers tabulated the results, the U.S. students came out ahead in every category. U.S. seniors outperformed their peers overall; students from elite U.S. schools outclassed their counterparts at the other countries' elite institutions; and the same was true for students at non-elite universities. (The differences among the scores of students in China, India, and Russia were not statistically significant, the researchers indicated.)
The final selection included 6847 students from the U.S., 678 from China, 364 from India, and 551 from Russia. Once the students were selected, the researchers then administered the Major Field Test in Computer Science, an exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service and is regularly updated. The exam was translated for the students in China and Russia. When the researchers tabulated the results, the U.S. students came out ahead in every category. U.S. seniors outperformed their peers overall; students from elite U.S. schools outclassed their counterparts at the other countries' elite institutions; and the same was true for students at non-elite universities. (The differences among the scores of students in China, India, and Russia were not statistically significant, the researchers indicated.)
World, but not job? (Score:5, Insightful)
If US students have achieved world domination, why are there such a high demand for H1-B Visa's?
Re:World, but not job? (Score:5, Insightful)
why are there such a high demand for H1-B Visa's?
They cost less and are dependent on good standing with the company to stay in the US, next question.
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Many laws are maintained not because they are fair, but because some rich lobby games the system to keep them in place.
The H1-B visa situation is one such.
Re: World, but not job? (Score:3)
"why the FUCK are H1-B visas legal?"
Fuck you, proles, that's why.
It's a race to the bottom - and we're winning!
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Except it doesn't work that way outside of Silicon Valley.
PA state government, for instance, pays minimum $100/hr for Indians (I've seen as high as $500/hr). Meanwhile, staff developers are something like $60/hr _including_ overpriced insurance and occasionally-not-deferred pension contributions. Further, bureaus that used to have 3-4 American developers now have 15-25 Indians. And they're not temporary either, no, they "support" the bureaus in perpetuity and the same people are there 9-10 years. They h
The big HR 'WHERE' clause (Score:1)
Part of the reason is "combo matching". Look at a typical IT job ad: it will have a list of "required" skills, tools, and versions that a particular company happened to pick for themselves. The chance of any one individual matching that list as-is is statistically pretty small.
But if HR can shop the world, the chance of a statistical fit goes up. Whether that's a rational way to pick a tech worker or not is moot,
Re:The big HR 'WHERE' clause (Score:4, Informative)
"But if HR can shop the world, the chance of a statistical fit goes up. Whether that's a rational way to pick a tech worker or not is moot, it's the way HR/recruiters typically think."
Not at all, those listings are in some cases designed to match exactly the person the manager wants to promote but they are required to post the position for "fair access" or more commonly to screen out U.S. Applicants. There is nothing saying the person they hire actually has to meet those requirements so they can screen out US applicants and then hire an H1B who doesn't meet them.
H1Bs are about dillute the labor pool in order to stagnate wages. There are other advantages, salary is usually part of it but a small part. The h1b is required to keep working there for a period before they can get another job. The H1B usually has no issues with infiltrating the position and then training replacements, developing automations, or assisting the company in preparing to outsource.
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H1Bs are about dillute the labor pool in order to stagnate wages.
Well they aren't doing a very good job. On the east coast, H1-B workers are a small fraction of tech workers. In my current cube farm of >100 people, I think we have 2. Compare that to Silicon Valley, which has some of the highest wages -- H1-B visas are 3/4 of the workers. So if they are here to stagnate wages, it isn't working. Not to mention the cost of sponsoring them is rather high.
I suppose the one way in which they do stagnate wages is when some company that hires nothing but H1-B workers com
Re: The big HR 'WHERE' clause (Score:5, Insightful)
After many years of experience I'm the tech industry, I'm of the sound theory that the "combo matching" you refer to is used more as a way to indirectly justify the other real reasons you mentioned: salary, culture, ageism, or politics.
If I make a position nearly impossible to fill by never endingly increasing specificity of minimik requirements, I can explain away any candidate of my choosing. Now that I've established a way to exclude all candidates, I can look at the viable candidates who applied and discriminate however I choose: salary, age, sex, whatever. Should any sort of discrimination lawsuit arise itll be quite easy to justify why I hired the other person unless they match the specificity of the other candidate exactly (pretty impossible). I get to do all this while still advertising position openings through all the typical mediums without worry of legal discrimination liabilities.
I know this because at least two positions I've worked have used this very practice and explained to me this is quite normal procedure to guarentee my spot for the opening. Often if its political (like those cases) they'll even have you send a copy of your resume where they tailor the specificity off your resume.
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Should any sort of discrimination lawsuit arise itll be quite easy to justify why I hired the other person unless they match the specificity of the other candidate exactly (pretty impossible).
Are US courts really that dumb? I mean don't the plaintiff's layers just argue that the extremely specific requirements are part of the discrimination process and expose the fact that they can't really be justified? And even if they can be justified, that's often just evidence of institutional discrimination.
Do you perhaps have any examples of this happening? Would be especially interesting if there was a lawsuit as well so that we could examine what arguments were used.
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It's a common practice to get around the compliance requirements. As a hiring manager, if I have an opening, and know someone who happens to be a great fit for that job, I'm still required to open a requisition for a week, and interview at least three candidates. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but nobody has ever explained why I should have to jump through that hoop in order to select the obvious person for the job. Because, in the end, I'm still going to get the person I wanted. Most certainly,
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Companies don't want you to do that as a hiring manager, because it creates a monoculture that does the organization as a whole harm. Trying to force you to consider other candidates is a rather blunt instrument, but also an easy one to implement.
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"...because it creates a monoculture that does the organization as a whole harm"
I can see where that could happen, but not on my watch. My company consistently brags about our diversity awards, and even though I'm an old white guy (nearly a minority in my workplace), my selections are based upon who's going to get the job done. I'm pretty confident that my peers do the same, because we often do committee interviews, and discuss them after.
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You don't need a fit, often the decision comes down to being able to hire 2 or 4 people for the cost of one. Forget H1-B, this is about outsourcing and it's a bigger issue than H1-B.
You don't want to be a cookie cutter clone of every other job candidate out there (especially in IT). The snag is that as an entry level job it is extremely hard to stand out our have experience in a desired specialty.
For H1-B generally the hiring company still wants someone above average for the most part, because it's a pain
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I was mostly discussing the decision from HR's point of view and/or habit; I didn't claim it was the best approach. They are not IT experts, and often try to fit skills list verbatim to cover their butts in case something goes wrong. It's like a contract: if they can successfully fit the contract (job ad), they've done their job ... on paper.
The visa workers I've worked with are a wide variability in
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"The one constant is that they'll often work long hours because they usually have no family,"
And that is in the companies interest because?
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If US students have achieved world domination, why are there such a high demand for H1-B Visa's?
Because US companies are willing to accept less if they can pay less -- and pocket the difference or funnel it to executives and/or shareholders. Good enough is usually good enough.
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"If they can pay less" also translates to a lerger head count. That's crucial for managers seeking more pay or a better resume for their next role, in ways unrelated to the success of the project.
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That's a funny way to say "maximize profit", which is what virtually every successful business does...not only in the U.S. Don't get me wrong, I'm no H1-B visa fan. But as long as it's legal, you can expect business to take every opportunity to use it...we need to get government to fix that, and stop blaming business for doing what they're supposed to do. But before that will ever happen, we need to get the lobbying money out of Congress, or it will never happen. That, in my mind, is the biggest problem
Re:World, but not job? (Score:5, Insightful)
Short sighted corporate strategy seeks the lowest cost without a concern for total life-cycle cost.
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True, because every project (program) manager tries to maximize profit or they're soon replaced with someone who will. It's a problem that won't be fixed by project managers, or any business. It needs federal regulation to make it not be an option for those managers...and I say this as a small government, conservative, capitalist.
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Someone else mentioned costing less and the period of indentured service companies get from H1B workers. But beyond that there is a bigger goal, dilluting the wage pool. There are enough people to fill the jobs, there aren't enough people to stagnate wages or even send them into decline which is what employers want.
They simply don't want to pay this class of engineer as much as they pay the other.
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Can hire someone who's really good and experienced and local, or two people in an eastern European country, or 4 people in India (in, not from). So when you can't find anyone competent locally you get the pressure to look overseas. Then you think, well I can get 4 instead of 1 and the position isn't for a senior role, and the summary sent to me is probably full of lies but with 4 of them maybe they can do something.
And that's the rationale for a *skilled* job requiring experience. Most of these jobs are gru
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And yes, it works out badly, you generally get your senior local people spending far too much of their time training or micro managing the remote workers.
You just described the last year and a half of my life. With a remote team of 4 people I was spending half my time training only to see the same mistakes over and over again. Even after pointing out the problem with a solution and how to avoid it; I would get back a re-factored solution where they put the exact same problem in again. For the better part of a month I was pretty sure the person submitting the changes was a new person every time. That was the only way someone could have made the same mis
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Simple.. Cost reasons.
And its justifiable (to management) when you only want/need a code monkey rather than an artist. And they (H1B) are more willing to put up with crap hours and pay (vs. domestic counterparts will fight that).
In short, its because, what its always been about.. Money..
Not skills/ability.
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Re: World, but not job? (Score:3)
Because the US has low relative population density and a high number of tech companies. Ergo, there is demand for workers outside the US. This is a good thing for the US.
Isn't it just "US Students"? (Score:3)
It kinda sucks. It displaces an American student and a job...
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Mind sharing what school that is?
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There's never been a real push for a C.S. union, nor a good reason for one. If you're a C.S. major, and not being paid what you think you deserve, or treated unfairly, you should have no trouble walking out the door, and doing better just down the street...unless you really suck at it, in which case I could see why you'd want a union.
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If US students have achieved world domination, why are there such a high demand for H1-B Visa's?
Just because the US might have the best, there are obvious answers to why we have h1-b visas. First, there probably are not enough devs in the us to cover all our needs. Second, we are probably not cheaper than foreign educated people, at least at first. Since there's a massive shortage of dev talent, but probably not a massive shortage of IT, that explains why there's a trend of bringing in cheaper external people for it jobs. There are people outside the us who can be talented devs, but I think because th
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First, not true, but talking heads will say it is because they don't want to pay higher wages.
Second, obviously we're not cheaper than people who come from places where the cost of living is 10% of what ours is...duh. But "educated" is frequently questionable, and often gamed by the companies pushing them.
"massive shortage of dev talent"...many people who were coders left the field at the end of the internet bubble, or during the recession. Now that we're finally seeing some decent salary increases, you'l
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The study looked at quality, not quantity.
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The same reason there is a huge push for diversity in tech even though the geek crowd which runs tech was raised on fantasy and sci-fi with all sorts of scenarios that exposed them to diversity concepts outside their bias and thus has always been pretty welcoming to anyone who had the stuff.
The more people they get into the labor pool the more they serve to stagnate or drive down wages.
Re:World, but not job? (Score:4, Informative)
And Visas make poachers' jobs harder.
This is somewhat true. H1-B employees are sort of stuck in their current job, it's difficult to migrate to a different company and losing your job may mean you have to leave the country.
So US students better at US tests... (Score:5, Insightful)
Shouldn't they also test how everyone passes Russian, Indian and Chinese tests ?
Because maybe US program is aligned with US tests.
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The "US program" is not a top-down thing. Read the story, it's a compilation of elite and non-elite universities referenced against overall demographics for selection propriety. There is no "US program" - the test is US centric, maybe.
I don't know without looking at it if there is any merit to (as yet unmade, that I'm aware of) complaints about the translation into the foreign languages, which would be a potential source of common bias/error obviously.
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There is no "US program"
That's not entirely true.
The ACM, in conjunction with the IEEE publishes a set of common curriculum standards for post-secondary Computer Science programs [acm.org]. Many (most?) colleges and Universities in North America that have Computer Science programs will, at least in part, base their curriculum off the ACM/IEEE recommendations.
Being a US-centric test, it's possible that the test presumes the use of the ACM/IEEE curriculum. From what I can tell, the Major Field Test for Computer Science [ets.org] is designed with inp
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Everybody does their own propaganda lies. I am sure, North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, etc. are all the world leaders in this field too.
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Everybody does their own propaganda lies. I am sure, North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, etc. are all the world leaders in this field too.
Yeah, I'm sure that Standford and IEEE are the propaganda arms of the US government.
The study was put together by a global team of researchers led by Prashant Loyalka, an assistant professor at Stanford University.
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For more detail, statistically speaking, your would expect US computer students, to do better on a US recognise test, that all US education establishments are fully aware of and in the majority agree with and align their education outlines with. Not to forget those Russian, Indian and Chinese students were doing the test in their second language not their primary language. So how did they do against poms and skips, a better comparison at least in language but then you could do their tests for a cross compar
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From the summary....The exam was translated for the students in China and Russia.
The study was put together by a global team of researchers led by Prashant Loyalka, an assistant professor at Stanford University.
Practicality? (Score:5, Insightful)
Something tells me a study put together by academics may not match real-world effectiveness. Skills related to teamwork social dynamics, understanding the business domain, and communication often have at least as big an impact as raw academic prowess, especially early in one's career where one has to pretty much shuddup and do what the boss asks.
Re:Practicality? (Score:5, Interesting)
Skills related to teamwork social dynamics, understanding the business domain, and communication often have at least as big an impact as raw academic prowess
My experience working in several Asian countries has convinced me that America has a substantial lead in all of these areas.
The level of office intrigue, backstabbing, favoritism, and information hoarding that goes on in a typical Asian office is far worse than anything you will see in America.
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That's hard to believe because it's pretty strong here. I'm convinced the Dilbert comic strip is a documentary with the names changed. In fact, the author admits he got many ideas from reader mail of actual events. Dilbert was invented in the Good Ol' USA.
I do often hear the structure is much more hierarchical in many parts of Asia: you ne
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I'm convinced the Dilbert comic strip is a documentary with the names changed.
You are in the minority. Most Americans think Dilbert is funny.
In Asia, you would be in the majority, and few would see the humor.
I do often hear the structure is much more hierarchical in many parts of Asia: you never question the boss's judgement: the hierarchy is almost absolute.
Only on the surface. No one openly questions "the boss", but there is plenty of undermining and scheming. Co-workers and even business units tend to see each other as competitors, rather than part of a cohesive organization working for a common purpose.
In many Asian countries, there are big international or state-owned enterprises, tiny mom-and-pop-shops, and nothing in betwee
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Anecdote...I had a flight instructor who left our aero club at a base in Korea to go work as an instructor at KAL for a couple years. He came back to the club and told me that he'd never work for a Korean airline again because the junior co-pilots would never tell the senior pilots when they were fucking up. I'm a big fan of respecting your elders, which is important in that culture, but this kind of thinking is totally unacceptable in a life/death situation.
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It can be both: a sad reflection of reality and funny, in a twisted way.
The Presidency is also like that.
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Having lived in Korea for six years, I'll second ShanghaiBill's opinion on this. You often don't know how good you have it until you actually see the other side.
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A rarity. Bottle him now!
Re: Practicality? (Score:3)
It is funny you mention those skills because those are areas that I personally find the US counterparts to excel at. I know lots of smart coders from abroad, but few have strong business accumen or even an interest in that area. When outsourcing work, on of the toughest barriers is communicating business needs. Often times the offshore workers are capable developers but don't seem to have an interest or knowledge in the business needs. Although much of that may be language barriers or the desire to do t
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There's plenty of similar here also
Not a valid comparison (Score:3, Interesting)
The team constructed a careful sampling mechanism to select senior (typically fourth year) computer science or equivalent students in each of the four countries, ... The final selection included 6847 students from the U.S., 678 from China, 364 from India, and 551 from Russia.
By the typical fourth year (or equivalent) the US students were still in school while the Chinese students were hacking US companies, the Indian students were answering US help-desk calls and the Russian students were hacking US elections... Be sure to statistically adjust for that.
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So that's Adam Smith's "Comparative Advantage".
Inherently biased (Score:2)
Superficially, this would appear to have a significant degree of bias and I'm left wondering what's the point. For starters it used a test developed in the US as its starting point. It would be expected that students from the US would already be somewhat familiar with the test and associated methodology whereas the other students wouldn't. Also teaching tends to become skewed towards common testing regimes, so it is likely that the material being covered in the US is more relevant to the tests than other co
In Soviet Russia, Computer Science Dominates YOU (Score:2)
H-1B (Score:3)
In fact doesn't this undermine the whole H-1B concept?
And another thing... (Score:2)
France has the most chefs with Michelin stars, so why do new Chinese and kebab restaurants keep opening up?
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You can't compare different facets of computer science to different forms of cuisine. People spend their entire lives just learning one form.
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Not really. China and India have much higher population density, whereas the US has more tech companies. The tech people in the US are at 100% employment. Since the US standard of living is so high, US workers rarely want to work for tech companies overseas. Hence, the US either imports labor or outsources. It's supply and demand.
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The study only looked at skill levels, not quantity available. Maybe there are just not enough of these highly skilled US students.
There does seem to be some evidence of that, given that a number of big tech companies are investing in getting more students to take up CS. If all they wanted was H1B then why waste millions on education?
Talk is cheap (Score:1)
Most of the gifted real world engineers seem to be doing programming contests than get into theoretical computer science, which is what this test is.
This looks like a biased sample to me - and one not leading to a practical consequence.
Nobody taking the clickbait in the article (Score:2)
Loyalka and his colleagues also looked at the difference in scores between the men and women in the sample. In every country, the men came out ahead...
American students are better at American test? (Score:2)
Number 1? Let see competitions that matter... (Score:2)
test gamed? (Score:2)
Could be a simple case of designing a test to reflect the local curriculum in the USA, or a case of problematic translation.
The test would have a lot more validity if it would have been designed by a joint committee of the universities involved, and then written in their respective native languages (not translated)
Domination! (Score:2)
US says US is best!
Russia, China, India is probably saying the same about themselves.
US Students or American students? (Score:2)
Indians code better (Score:2)
Maybe the translation just sucks? (Score:1)
Leads me to believe that maybe whoever was translating the test wasn't using the same idioms and figurative language that native speakers of Mandarin/Russian/Hindi would use.
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It's good to be number one in something.
It is not just computer science.
America also won the International Math Olympiad, beating out the Chinese.
Here is a photo of the American team [pics.me.me].
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Bill, you gotta tell me if this is a joke. If it's real, my math professor wife is going to get a kick out of it.
However, she has said that in the past 2 years, she's seen an improvement in the quality of the non-Asian American students. They seem to be better prepared, but that's just anecdote. I was talking to a high-school teacher who said they're trying to teach math more like other places in the world. For example, instead of making Calculus a semester-long course, with Calc I, II, etc, they're tea
Re:USA Number One! (Score:4, Insightful)
Bill, you gotta tell me if this is a joke. If it's real, my math professor wife is going to get a kick out of it.
I don't know if the photo is legitimate or not. My daughter (half Asian, and very mathematically capable) forwarded it to me.
If a photo is funny enough, does it matter if it is true?
instead of making Calculus a semester-long course, with Calc I, II, etc, they're teaching it more simply as a set of tool
This is much better than the normal "theory first" method. When you start with limits and infinitesimals, the students get confused and lose interest, because they don't see where it is headed. It is also historically inaccurate, because that is NOT how calculus was developed. Both Newton and Leibniz developed calculus as a tool, and the rigorous theory didn't come until a century later.
Most students in a calculus class are going to be scientists and engineers, not mathematicians. They have no need to learn the theory. If they are really interested, they can learn it in a more advanced course, or from self-study.
Mathematicians often make poor math teachers.
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They have no need to learn the theory.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, or teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime?
While I don't derive the fundamental theorem of calculus on a daily basis I do understand it. It feels odd when I'm explaining why the area of a rectangle is width * height; and I suddenly remember I could explain this with calculus as a step function between 0 and width with a constant value of height. I've also used Picards theorem to write a quick and dirty square root function in assembly on a lowly 8086 proc
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Boundary value problems and initial value problems have plenty of real world applications.
So knowing Picard's Theorem is not an example of focusing on theory.
A better example would be teaching the students how to prove the theorem, rather than teaching them how to use the theorem to solve problems.
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"Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, or teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime?"
True, but I don't need to know how to prove that 2x2=4 to make a lifetime of use of the fact. If I accept that it's a fact and memorize my multiplication tables, I can fish for a lifetime without ever knowing how my rod and reel were made.
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I can fish for a lifetime without ever knowing how my rod and reel were made.
Until the reel breaks and you have use your hands to pull in the line, cutting up your hands. Or until the line breaks and you don't know how to re-thread the line.
And you do know how to prove 2x2=4, you just don't think about it that way. Ie, 2 sets of 2 items = 4 items. Unless you just blindly see every 2x2 and replace it with 4 you do understand the concept.
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You need to get out more often. I can get a new one at about ten different stores in my neighborhood. And when is the "x" going to break?
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I'm not sure what year your photo is supposed to be from, but a photo of the actual U.S. team in the 2018 International Mathematical Olympiad, led by coach Po-Shen Loh, leads one to a similar conclusion.
https://www.cmu.edu/news/stori... [cmu.edu]
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Interesting how you posted exactly the same link as me, but came to exactly the opposite conclusion from it.
The photo shows a racially diverse group. White, south Asian, east Asian... Only one woman though.
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It's fake news. Here is an article with a better photo of the whole team: https://www.cmu.edu/news/stori... [cmu.edu]
As you can see, the team is more diverse than your image suggests.
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Well, I don't think the US can really claim top spot in lying to itself. It is in one of the leading positions though.
Re:USA Number One! (Score:5, Informative)
No, it's the 11th. HOWEVER: the top 9 are all tiny Pacific island nations like Samoa or Tonga where they typically get very big, but because of the type of diet they still stay pretty healthy. Have you noticed how many NFL linemen are from Samoa or Tonga or Cook Islands? Guys that look like big fatsos but can do a standing jump onto a table and dunk a basketball and run a 40-yd dash in the 5's.
Here is the list of the most obese nations. You will see that among industrialized nations, United States is first. You could argue that Kuwait is fat because they're all rich royalty and probably just sit and stuff themselves all day. Unlike Americans, who are not rich royalty, and probably just sit and stuff themselves all day.
Here is the list for those of you who really want to deny that the US is very close to the fattest nation on earth.
http://worldpopulationreview.c... [worldpopul...review.com]
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The U.S. is a wealthy and prosperous nation, but we've spent too much of that on white powder that's bad for us, whether that's sugar or cocaine, and it's lead to a lot of detrimental effects.
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In looking at some of the questions, it doesn't appear as though there should be any cultural barrier, unless they don't have stacks in Russia or recursion in China or some such nonsense. Maybe you could argue that the test is designed with the assumption that the ACM or IEEE curriculum gu
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Eh. Entire field of computer science is "U.S.-designed exam". Try coding in any computer language other than straight machine code without some understanding of English. It helps to be the people who built the playing field, when you want to dominate the playing field.
Re: "world" ? (Score:3)
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Nothing of any consequence. You got everybody. U.S. and BRIC countries.
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Wow - a "global team of researchers [from] Stanford" found that US students did better on a US test, and it didn't cross their mind that maybe the test was biased towards the US curriculum...
Naa, that does not happen. For example, the IQ tests that were given to black people in Africa and were written in English and required US cultural knowledge really proved these people are complete morons! The test is always right! After all, it results in solid numbers that cannot be misinterpreted! Higher is always superior!
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Depends. A run-of-the mill US degree is basically not worth the paper it is printed on. An IIT bachelor is just as good as one from a major US tech institution (there are not many), maybe better. A master's or PhD is not, IIT sucks above bachelor. For China it is the politics that prevent teaching of some things and the cultural problems of collectivism. No connection to intelligence. Takes some to see that though and "patriots" are always at the bottom end of the intelligence scale, because to be one you h