Huawei Says US Ban Hurting More Than Expected, To Wipe $30 Billion Off Revenue (reuters.com) 172
China's Huawei has taken a harder-than-expected hit from a U.S. ban, the company's founder and CEO Ren Zhengfei said, and slashed revenue expectations for the year. From a report: Ren's downbeat assessment that the ban will hit revenue by $30 billion, the first time Huawei has quantified the impact of the U.S. action, comes as a surprise after weeks of defiant comments from company executives who maintained Huawei was technologically self-sufficient. [...] Huawei had not expected that U.S. determination to "crack" the company would be "so strong and so pervasive," Ren said, speaking at the company's Shenzhen headquarters on Monday. Two U.S. tech experts, George Gilder and Nicholas Negroponte, also joined the session. "We did not expect they would attack us on so many aspects," Ren said, adding he expects a revival in business in 2021.
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Re: Indeed (Score:1)
Their boot loaders are not open. They disallowed unlocking in May.
https://www.androidauthority.com/huawei-bootloader-unlocking-869169/
Re: Indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
Wonder what they have to hide then. Most companies have a way to get a development key and a bootlocker unlock. The exceptions are Huawei and Samsung Snapdragon phones sold in the US (while the rest of the world gets easily unlockable Exynos devices.) I understand that Samsung probably was forced into doing that because phones are bought through US carriers, and carriers want phone churn, but Huawei locking out stuff for no real reason, coupled with all the rumors of spyware make me not inclined to buy a device from them, no matter how good they are.
I think Huawei could have gotten a cult marketshare had they opened their devices. Yes, this only appeals to a few people, but a lot of others listen to those few people, even if it is a statement that this brand of phone maker guards privacy better than others, even if one does have to root and add an iptables level firewall. However, the tack Huawei is taking is definitely not one that appeals. What do they have to hide that they have to lock bootloaders across the board?
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I wonder, is Huawei a squeaky clean shop or not? (Score:5, Informative)
https://phoneradar.com/top-9-evidence-of-huaweis-backdoor-ip-theft-alleged-hacking-reports/
#1
In 2007, the FBI arrested Motorola engineer Hanjuan Jin who was found with $30,000 in cash, a bag full of classified Motorola documents, and a one-way ticket to Beijing. The investigation revealed that the engineer was not only with Motorola but also with another company called Lemko. Lemko was founded by Shaowei Pan who worked for Motorola for almost 10 years. It was started just after his meeting with the Huawei founder Ren Zhengfei and other top executives of the company.
According to the documents provided to the court, the Lemko’s goal was to build Motorola’s like wireless technology for Huawei. Shaowei Pan even emailed Ren Zhengfei saying, “If our plan can progress smoothly, Lemko will be the company we are planning to establish, and it will be independent of Motorola Inc.” While the case was later settled on confidential terms, Hanjuan Jin was sentenced for four years in prison.
Source
#2
Akhan Semiconductor Inc is a small U.S. company owned by the young entrepreneur Adam Khan. The company developed the Miraj Diamond Glass which is 6 times stronger and 10 times more scratch-resistant than Gorilla Glass. He saw Huawei as a potential customer and in order to license his technology, Khan sent the prototype to Huawei’s laboratory in San Diego. Later, Huawei returned back the glass and it was actually found to be completely damaged.
When Adam Khan’s company and FBI conducted the sting operation, the Huawei representatives admitted on tape for breaking the contract with Akhan Semiconductor Inc and thus violating the U.S. export-control laws.
Source
#3
According to PanOptis, the company has sent its executives on its own expense to Shenzhen to discuss licensing arrangements with Huawei for its patents. Huawei declined to license the PanOptis’s patents, which are used by smartphones to receive and display video. However, the Chinese company went and incorporated the technology in all its smartphones. When the PanOptis filed the patent infringement case in Texas, the court has ordered Huawei to pay the hefty sum of $10.56 million for willful patent infringement.
Source
#4
Last year, Huawei also entered the solar power market with its own solar inverters. A small Israeli company called SolarEdge filed a lawsuit against Huawei accusing it of patent infringement and intellectual property theft. The Chinese company is said to have followed the same tricks as it did in the networking business. Huawei later came out publicly denying these accusations and the decision is still pending in the court.
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#5
In the early 2000s, the US-based Cisco Systems has accused Huawei of I.P. infringement. It even accused the Chinese company of stealing the software code of its routers. While the lawsuit was filed in 2003, it was later settled confidentially without revealing any details.
Source
#6
Huawei is also accused of stealing a robot from the testing lab of one of the largest carriers in the U.S. According to the details provided by T-Mobile, a Huawei employee walked out from the T-Mobile testing lab along with the proprietary robot called Tappy in his laptop bag. The Tappy was designed to catch the flaws in new smartphones before they were put on sale. Along with T-Mobile, it was also opened for few other smartphone manufacturers to test their products but under strict non-disclosure agreements.
At first, Huawei forced its employees to collect more details about this robot. With the kind of questions asked by Huawei employees, T-Mobile even threatened to ban Huawei employees from entering its testing lab. When T-Mobile came to know that the Huawei employees were taking unauthorized photographs, they banned the whole group of Huawei employees but allowed only one to test the products that were slated to release through its network. Then a Chinese Huawei employee flew to the U.S. and carried the te
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Is this copypasta going to show up on every Huawei story or will your funding eventually run out?
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This is not a complete defense of Huawei... (Score:1)
But they used to have all their devices unlockable down to the bootloader WITHOUT A CODE, except for some later prepaid devices where the carrier demanded it.
What changed was *CHINA* 'requested' they do it for all domestic bound phones for reasons you can already guess at. Not long after that, it became *ALL* phones, I assume to ensure that grey market or third shift phones under the foreign skus didn't end up in the hands of chinese dissidents.
As I said, this isn't a complete defense, but put yourself in t
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I think Huawei could have gotten a cult marketshare had they opened their devices.
So, you think Pixel will or has?
Hypocripsy Indeed (Score:3, Insightful)
So,
- Samsung, Apple, etc (read: western vendors) lock their phones: OK for business
- Huawei locks their phones: must be hiding spyware
- Huawei not to lock their phones: must be trying to allow the Chinese government to hack into phone and so a national security risk
Yeah, hypocrites always have their ways.
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In 8 weeks I'm in Thailand again. :P
Perhaps I buy a Huawei just despite
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But it also means that there will be a full-on retaliation. China isn't just going to ignore this, they are going to expect that $30bn back, and more. They may not be as rash as Trump but the pain is coming, of that you can be certain.
Well, aside from the pain US consumers are already experiencing due to decreased competition and increased prices of course.
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I got your citation right here:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=china+tar... [lmgtfy.com]
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I'll grant you that this whole squabble is stupid on its face, and ultimately isn't going to help consumers anywhere, but China knows that and they know that Huawe
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Sure, but it's the principal of it. Huawei is one of China's most important companies, and China has to make sure everyone knows that if you screw with it like this then there are consequences.
Flip it around, if China tried to drive Apple out of business what do you think the US would do?
Re: Indeed (Score:1)
China is learning a lesson: you can't embed spy bullshit in the next generation of everything and get away with it. The accusations were all spot on, China knows it, and there is a small chance they may listen instead of doubling down.
Re:Indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
Huawei is one of China's most important companies
That's a bit shortsighted don't you think? So what? It's not like the countless others can't rise up either and more than likely will in a vacuum. Huawei going under wouldn't be anything but a slip on the wrist. The IP is already stolen, mixed in, and lost forever. Yeah, Huawei becomes the scapegoat for it, but it's not like the Chinese government can't manicure a version 2.0 of them from one of the already existing companies.
Flip it around
I greatly dislike this notion of some company in China can somehow be equated to some company in America somehow. They cannot, for the simple fact that companies in China operate under entirely different markets and regulations than US companies do. That's kind of the point of why there is such animosity between countries that operate under "fair" (and I use that term loosely) market rules like the US and might makes right kind of rules in China. There's not a flip it around here because there's not an equability for that in incompatible for comparison markets.
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"While the comparison is not perfect, the US and China are probably the two nations where companies can be compared the most closely."
Not even close. In China a minister can walk in and take over operations with no notice, order certain decisions made silently and secretly, or even send a representative in to function as a secretary and direct individual decisions while maintain the appearance of independent operation. None of that can happen in the US. China would do everything they can to create the appea
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"with court orders"
That is a pretty significant distinction and only pertains to handling over information related to a suspect. There is no reasonable comparison to the agent of a dictator taking over literally any operation at will on any whim for any reason. Also, failure to comply doesn't result in your son being retroactively linked to a banned religion, shipped to a concentration camp, then murdered so his organs can be sold.
The US has been going down a shitty path but it is a long way from being a li
Re:Indeed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Indeed (Score:5, Informative)
I disagree with Trump on just about everything he's said or is doing, however pushing China on trade I'm 100% behind. They've been stacking the deck for decades.
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While I don't think protectionism is a good idea, they also didn't do it just to spite the US or to gain some kind of competitive advantage. They did it because they had seen what had happened in other countries.
Malaysia is a good example. Massive property boom funded by foreign speculation, and then massive property crash. Or in London, half the dwellings are empty, bought up by foreign investors with no interest in living there or renting. So better put some laws in place to limit foreign ownership of pro
Re:Indeed (Score:5, Insightful)
While I don't think protectionism is a good idea, they also didn't do it just to spite the US or to gain some kind of competitive advantage. They did it because they had seen what had happened in other countries.
The exact same can be said for the US actions against China.
Stop it with the apologizing for the world's largest totalitarian nationalist ethno-state. They have reeducation camps for dissidents and minorities. They harvest and sell prisoners' organs. They have invaded and annexed one country, soft annexed another.
How can anyone defend the modern version of 1937 Germany with a smile?
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Not to mention a 'soft genocide' against the Uyghurs. Or maybe it's a hard genocide by now.
We don't know because they have their great firewall and block journalists. Not that it matters. Western journalists are too obsessed with the Mueller report or whatever "hate speech" means this week to even think about airing a story about actual, currently-happening-and-we-need-to-stop-it ethnic genocide.
Nope. People like AmiMoJo up there shitting on the US for protecting trade interests is waaaaay more important than stopping mass murder and the foundations of the next world war being laid. Proof is in t
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Don't straw-man me. You even quoted the very first words of my point where I specifically said I don't support what they are doing. And obviously I don't support their regime, and it's well beyond disingenuous to suggest that I am happy to do so.
My point was only that framing it as some kind of deliberate attack on the US is wrong, it's a general policy designed to prevent some specific things happening. It's different to bringing in tariffs and trying to destroy specific Chinese companies as part of a hard
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I hope you don't seriously believe it was done by the altruistic Chinese government simply to protect themselves from being exploited. The problem is most of the large Chinese companies have direct ties to the government.
I've also had to import product in to China.. double standards abound. Then there's the CCC certification.. that was simply a way to force bribes to government offic
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China has already done a great deal of harm to any foreign investment, forcing industries into a joint partnership with a Chinese firm
This is allowed under WTO treaties that the US has signed up to. Of course, the US never cares what it has signed up to.
It is basically affirmative actions for poorer developing countries. For example, China allows Pakistan to set up its own manufacturing lines [indiatimes.com] when it sold its fighter jets to the later.
(most having direct ties to the Chinese government).
This is patently not true. Try ask most of the top hi0tect companies -- Baidu, Alibaba, Tencent, Bytedance, etc. -- who were their venture capitalists.
Indeed, even Huawei, the number one hi0tect enemy of the
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China has already done a great deal of harm to any foreign investment, forcing industries into a joint partnership with a Chinese firm
Perhaps you want to read a little bit about asian history.
Or more important, south american.
Do you really demand that China and other asian countries behave as stupid as south america getting themselves steamrolled and eclipsed from mankinds history by the all mighty USA?
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"Whether or not any of that profit is actually taxed is another question, and something you should ask your congressman about. "
Taxed or ever makes it way into the general economy. A handful of wealthy in CA and NY doesn't help the general economy of the other 48 states much does it?
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"Why do the rich people, in your delusion, all want to live in NY and CA? Is it because they can afford to and those states are genuinely better?"
No, those states are home to and have legal policies in place supporting certain industries that benefit most heavily from trade with China.
Additionally, they've been benefiting from a tax loophole and subsidizing their states with high state income taxes that until very recently were then deducted from federal taxation allowing local benefit at the expense of the
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Until very recently there has even been a tax loophole in these states so the states so that of the taxes that were paid (more so by the upper middle class workers of these states) a large state level income tax could be levied then deducted directly off federal taxes to deny benefit to the rest. They aren't the only states playing this game but they are the worst offenders.
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Flip it around, if China tried to drive Apple out of business what do you think the US would do?
That would be hilarious.
I can only imagine the outcry when thousands of children will be unable to work their social-score required 80 hours per week assembling phones to ship to China.
Of course, that's only if you entirely "flip it around". The sort of pick-and-choose most of your arguments are based on never holds up to logical scrutiny. Good for a laugh though. I can only imagine how screwed up the world must look from your perspective.
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>China isn't just going to ignore this, they are going to expect that $30bn back, and more.
IOW, there is no distinction between Huawei and the Chinese government. Kind of makes the case for the US a little more prescient.
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Well what do you think Trump would do if China cost Apple $30bn? Ergo by your logic there is no distinction between Apple and Trump.
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Well what do you think Trump would do if China cost Apple $30bn?
Not a damn thing.
Ergo by your logic there is no distinction between Apple and Trump.
I guess it shouldn't surprise me that you are incapable of correctly applying other people's logic, especially when you are incapable of applying your own logic, but their logic requires that answer to be anything but "not a damn thing". Ergo, you lose.
Re:Indeed (Score:4, Insightful)
>Well what do you think Trump would do if China cost Apple $30bn?
Tell apple to move back to the us US or get over it?
I am confused, are you saying how China has abused trade and copyright is a good thing?
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That would be a disaster for Apple.
Aside from the higher cost of manufacturing in the US, they would have massive supply chain problems and be facing US tariffs on the parts they need to import from China. Then when they export those phones (most are sold outside the US, and that's where all the growth is as the US market for phones is saturated) they will be hit with other country's tariffs that are retaliation for the US ones.
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"Trump's not exactly out there defending American interests"
The problem is that despite his ridiculously bad PR that seems to be exactly what hes done. He attacked H1B slave labor, he highlighted and demanded congress dismantle presidential discretion to split families at the border, he attempted to build a stupid wall his constituents asked for, he tried to reform healthcare policy that has made it so nobody can really afford to get sick and making hundreds of thousands still leaves you struggling. Oh and
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Well what do you think Trump would do if China cost Apple $30bn?
Send Apple workers to the coal mines. JOBS JOBS JOBS!!!!
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But it also means that there will be a full-on retaliation. China isn't just going to ignore this, they are going to expect that $30bn back, and more. They may not be as rash as Trump but the pain is coming, of that you can be certain.
Well, aside from the pain US consumers are already experiencing due to decreased competition and increased prices of course.
This is the regime you're defending:
China is harvesting organs from detainees, tribunal concludes [theguardian.com]
An independent tribunal sitting in London has concluded that the killing of detainees in China for organ transplants is continuing, and victims include imprisoned followers of the Falun Gong movement. ...
B-b-b-bbut ORANGE MAN BAD!!!!!
Grow the fuck up.
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How will they retaliate? The whole reason we are here to begin with is because of lopsided trade with China. Banning US products from import will have far less of an effect.
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China has been doing a ton of predatory things. From hacking US solar panel companies, then flooding the market with panels for cheaper than the rare earths cost, to selling rare earths cheaper... only if stuff is made on the mainland, to demanding 51% ownership of all ventures on their soil, to no difference between a Chinese company and a PLA intel official. They have merged industrial espionage with nation-state spying.
Even the EU has put up tariffs on Chinese solar panels.
What would be the alternative
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What pain really? I mean I heard a hairdresser complaining about higher prices on bell peppers as if that made sense somehow but I haven't really seen it. The S&P is actually pushing on new highs.
There are plenty of other countries lining up to get in on supplying US consumerism including many who have been vying to do just that long before this and are ready to go. Chinese goods being 25% more expensive doesn't mean we pay 25% more, it means other goods that are less than 25% more go on the shelves. A
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Chinese goods being 25% more expensive doesn't mean we pay 25% more, it means other goods that are less than 25% more go on the shelves. A lot of this trade can simply shift to Mexico, a lot is shifting domestic, and both of those routes are more beneficial to the domestic economy long run than business with China.
That's not true all the time though. [cnbc.com]
Sourcing from other countries will raise costs, in many cases more than the 25% tariffs, some witnesses told a panel of officials from the U.S. Trade Representative’s office, the Commerce Department, State Department and other federal agencies.
But dozens of witnesses in oral and written testimony said that moving operations to Vietnam and other countries would not be feasible for years due to a lack of skills and infrastructure in those locations. China dominates global production in industries from shoes to electronics to port gantry cranes.
Mark Flannery, president of Regalo International, a Minnesota-based maker of baby gates, child booster seats and portable play yards, said that pricing quotes for shifting production to Vietnam - using largely Chinese-made steel - were 50% higher than current China costs, while quotes from Mexico were above that.
Marc Schneider, chief executive of fashion footwear and apparel marketer Kenneth Cole Productions, said 25% tariffs would wipe out the company’s profits and cost jobs.
“We’re going to lower the quality of footwear, raise prices and accomplish nothing by moving it around to other countries,” Schneider said.
Re: Indeed (Score:2, Insightful)
It couldn't have happened to a nicer company.
Money talks (Score:2)
Are they going to modify their SOP so they can be allowed to sell within the US again, or not?
That's the ultimate question isn't it?
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what is "SOP"?
"SOP" = "Standard operating procedure" (Score:3)
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More interesting, will Huawei's competitors in China cheer and gain market share, or will Huawei simply remain dominant in China et al? Will China have an advantage due to Huawei having a head start on communications tech (they're better positioned to roll out 5G than most companies), leaving the US as a technological backwater?
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They got cut off from some key technologies that might hurt them in China, even if they can substitute them somehow.
However for now they seem to be doubling down in Europe, I've seen more Huawei ads online in the last few months than ever before I think, youtube in particular seems to be full of them.
Huawei relentlesly cheats (Score:5, Informative)
Setting up shell companies to bypass Iran UN sanctions and bragging privately about thumbing their noses at sanctions is another example.
Then there is more employee spying in Poland.
Re:Huawei relentlesly cheats (Score:5, Informative)
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/01/us-indicts-huawei-for-stealing-t-mobile-robot-selling-us-tech-to-iran/
https://www.engadget.com/2019/01/30/huawei-t-mobile-emails-espionage-tappy-robot-steal-2012/
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-indictment-against-huawei-t-mobile-reads-spy-movie-2019-1
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/01/28/the-us-just-charged-huawei-with-stealing-a-t-mobile-robot-idea/#7bc573523484
This affair is still in court but this is looking very bad for Huawei.
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Look at the arstechnica's promoted comment by Ron Amadeo. Huawei didn't steal nothing.
Umm, you've misinterpreted Ron's post. It was saying that it wasn't a robot created by T-mobile, but one created by Epson that was being used by T-mobile. I think his point was that the espionage was pretty amateurish since they didn't get much valuable information. Stealing information, even if it's not of much technical value is still stealing.
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[citation needed]
oh well (Score:2)
Intresting. (Score:3)
May become interesting when they are trying to get compensation for that damage.
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"Compensation from who?"
From Dr. Whom obviously.
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They are already suing the US government in the US over it, but it could also be factored in to any eventual trade deal with China.
Good Luck US tax payers (Score:1)
That's 30 billion the US tax payers will have to pay back after decades of lawsuits.
china IS NOT TPP MEMBER YOU DOLT (Score:1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
Re: Good Luck US tax payers (Score:1)
China was not in TPP.
GOOD! (Score:2)
Re:This is coming from Reuters... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is coming from Reuters - and Reuters is known to report ANYTHING the US or German government wants them to report. ;-P
While its originating source is Reuters, the story is also being carried by such bastions of Western propaganda as al-Jazeera and RT. So totally suspect.
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Reaping what they sowed (Score:1)
10 years ago when I worked for a major telecom equipment and chipset maker, Huawei was the latest chinese company acting like IP doesn't exist because it isn't part of their culture, stealing everything they could get their hands on and undercutting with direct knock-offs, with no way for us to legally take action. Now they are suing others for infringement. Burn them to the ground IMO.
Thiefs need to be punished (Score:1)
Realtiy bites and it is time we check Huawei which is built on stolen US technology. By stealing our technology the communist are stealing our wealth. Huawei got its start by stealing Cisco router technology. Recently one of their engineers walked into T-Mobile lab and stole the robotic arm for the robot phone tester. Huawei engineers using fake company names to enter conferences from where they are banned. Finally, Huawei is controlled by the Chinese government. A government that is focused on being
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network gear still good (Score:1)
We have two huwawei 100G border routers we cannot deploy because of all this political drama.
We got really a good deal, and the security risk is non existent if traffic traversing the device is encrypted properly. (Like anything sensitive should be by default)
In the end we have 2x big paper weights I'm not even allowed to deploy in our lab, and they are just staying in storage indefinitely...
So stupid....
Revenue moves elsewhere (Score:1)
That revenue moves elsewhere. If it was lost in the Chinese market then another manufacturer will pick up the revenue. If it's international sales they should go elsewhere. Maybe samsung or?
Well Huwawei is owned by the communist party (Score:1)
And Slashdot LOVES the chinese communist party so...
-5!
But ... but ... (Score:2)
Trump's tweet (Score:2)
I'm waiting for Trump's tweet saying he's hit Huawei to the tune of 30 TRILLION.