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Education Microsoft Science

Should Schools Teach Computer Science Instead of Physics? (floridaphoenix.com) 316

Posted by EditorDavid from the correct-curriculums dept.
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp writes: "Other than trying to keep my kids from falling down the stairs in the Governor's mansion I don't know how much I deal with physics daily," quipped Florida governor Ron DeSantis as he explained his support for a bill pushed by Microsoft and Code.org lobbyists that will allow computer science credit to be substituted for traditional science classes to meet high school graduation requirements. "You cannot live in our modern society without dealing with technology or computers in your daily life."

From the Governor's press release: "Expanding access to computer science learning is critically important for the future of Florida's students," said Sheela VanHoose of Code.org. "This historic investment by the Governor and the Florida Legislature represents the nation's largest one-time investment in computer science teachers by a state."

"Providing the tools that students need to learn computer science is crucial to filling the jobs of tomorrow," said Fred Humphries, Corporate Vice President of U.S. Government Affairs at Microsoft. "We applaud Governor DeSantis for approving crucial funding to help train more computer science teachers as part of a broader commitment to prepare students for the thousands of computing and data science jobs in Florida. Microsoft looks forward to continuing to work with Governor DeSantis to ensure that all students are ready for the career opportunities created by our digital economy."
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Should Schools Teach Computer Science Instead of Physics? More

Should Schools Teach Computer Science Instead of Physics?

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  • Of course not! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fustakrakich ( 1673220 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @12:35AM (#58807262) Journal

    Physics is fundamental to everything

    • Re:Of course not! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @02:05AM (#58807476)

      Want to work on computers? Learn physics!

      What are the big pushes in computing today, the things that will pay money this year (but maybe not when your kids graduate)? Wireless communications (physics), AI (lots of math, which is what physics is), games (physics), defeating Moore's law (physics), quantum computing (major physics).

      What do stupid governors think that computer science is? Word, email, cookie cutter jobs, votes.

  • Yes (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mr. Dollar Ton ( 5495648 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @12:38AM (#58807266)

    Physics is a pain in the ass. It is pretentious, presuming its laws are always valid and cannot be changed by our bright and fearless political elite. Its absurd ideas that resources are limited, that actions have consequences and that reality is something that is objective and outside of a political narrative are insidious and harmful.

    It should be banned and replaced with a simulated world, where coding rules.

    Amen! Murrikah!

    • Physics is already optional at most schools. There's no "instead"

      • "Instead" is not what you should be interested in. Pray with me for a full bannination instead.

      • Physics is already optional at most schools.

        What? No more dodgeball? That's horrible!

        But seriously, the weather... You can't learn anything without knowing physics. All knowledge becomes very superficial and flimsy without a foundation.

    • If I had mod points right now, I would give you +1 Funny.

  • Slack to email, now this? (Score:5, Funny)

    by grasshoppa ( 657393 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @12:40AM (#58807272) Homepage

    I realize these are just headlines and have precisely 0% chance of actually happening, but that anyone is actually stupid enough to bring it up.... ...fuck I'm old.

    • Re:Slack to email, now this? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by tquasar ( 1405457 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @01:06AM (#58807338)
      Yes, teach physics and chemistry and biology. Some students don't have an interest or the ability to grasp esoteric concepts while those who do may excel and become tomorrows leaders in developing new technologies. I enjoyed learning math, geometry and algebra. I had a teacher who made it interesting, thanks Jack Munson. When I got to trigonometry I was lost. PS. My brother got a doctorate in math from UC Berkeley.

      • The people who built the first computers were not taught computer science when they were in school (not even in college). The people who invented all of the programming paradigms that exist today did not learn computer science in high school, and most didn't learn any as an undergraduate.

        I know someone who led building a successful world class synchrotron while only having the dumbed down version of physics in high school, and skipping college until after a military stint. Never actually finished the PhD, w

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      I don’t know what worries anymore, that he sees no value in teaching it, or that he fails to see how often he’s actually using it in his life to make decisions. Perhaps quantum entanglement is not something that every person would benefit from. Then again it’s such an emerging field that the jury is definitely still out on that one. But Newtonian physics??? And I have to be honest the math I did in physics was profoundly more fun than the math I did in math class. Calculating the area u

  • No F'ng way. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 23, 2019 @12:46AM (#58807284)

    You want a generation of idiots that can't create anything or improve upon real objects then yes. Teach them a programming language and 5% or less will actually use it. Physics you use nearly every day. You don't think of it just like you don't think of how you use Algebra and Geometry each day.

    This is exactly what China and Russia want to push upon the USA. A nation of worthless idiots who can't even create a computer, only abuse it.

  • Teach to think (Score:5, Insightful)

    by feranick ( 858651 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @12:57AM (#58807318)
    The promise is all wrong. Physics is not just great because it actually explains things, but, when well taught, it's an excellent tool for teaching students how to inquire the world, how to be curious, how not to take all for granted. This is, not coincidentally, what the proposed computer science stuff is going to give. Yes, I know, computer science can be creative just the same, but the level of excitement from Microsoft and the likes makes me think this is a way to teach how to use tools, not your brain. Hey, there are are bad physics teacher out there that teach it by memorization. But that's not Physics education fault. I guess the only thing to say is: don't complain if you are raising the next generation of antivaxers, or climate denialists. They will be very proficient in PowerPoint.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      To expand on this, employers all say they want problem solvers. To do this students need to be able to abstract information, synthesis, and then for a concrete process for a solution. In high school the four years of math and chemistry and physics teach this. English teaches students to communicate the solution clearly.

      Computer science is an important part of this process given that we live in a world where we must create precise processes so a computer, not human, can recreate the outcome. It is too

  • Computer Science is just a shop class (Score:5, Insightful)

    by perpenso ( 1613749 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @01:02AM (#58807328)
    Computer Science is just a shop class. A class to take to see if they like coding and maybe, just maybe, learn some small practical thing along the way. But despite "science" being in the title, a high school class will likely be an intro to coding class. Which is all it should be. Let a kid figure out if they are at all interested in it. If so, offer more classes, if not, then they are done and don't try to force more classes on them.

    This is all you can really accomplish in high school, you will not produce proficient software developers(*) but you might get those interested in it started down that path. Nothing more.

    (*) If they do leave high school as a proficient software developer it will be because they put a ton of their free time into developing the requisite skills. Time unrelated to school work, time satisfying their own curiosity and ambition. And that's all the school is there for, to spark that personal curiosity and ambition.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Computer Science is just a shop class.

      Not really. It's a tool. Physics is essential. The absolute last thing we need is more people shouting some superstition about how the world, the weather, vaccines, etc work. Garbage in, garbage out and all that.

      One way I'd recommend teaching computer science is alongside regular science and physics. This is the theory. This is how we can model the theory in code. This is how we can test it in real life. These are the differences.

      In short, we can't give up physics for computer science. Sports we co

      • Excellent point. Using computing to model processes is as valid a way of understanding the world as mathematics. In some ways it branches out into new paridgms that students absolutely should appreciate. Concepts such as the use of "big data".

    • Computer Science is just a shop class. A class to take to see if they like coding and maybe, just maybe, learn some small practical thing along the way.

      That's certainly how it's often taught, but that really isn't CS.

      A programming class is to shop as a CS course is to a physics course. CS is about the theory of information and computation, not about how to bash out a "Hello World" program in Python or whatever. And I think it would be really useful for the next generations of adults to have a basic understanding of information and data, encoding, computability, encryption, etc. in much the same way that a basic understanding of Newtonian mechanics is u

  • But then, high school physics, as far as I can tell, isn't really science either.

    That is, while high school physics might teach, often badly, some of the great discoveries that scientists have made, and how to apply them in a very few carefully controlled circumstances, it very rarely teaches anything useful about how scientists actually tackle novel problems.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Computer Science is very much science. But "coding" is not CS and neither is anything they could teach in school.

  • I’m With Betteridge (Score:3)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @01:13AM (#58807358)

    Of course, calling a Florida Governor an idiot is rather passé... but yeah he’s a idiot.

    Besides, if no one studies physics, there’ll be no one to drop that major as “too hard” and switch to chemistry. I’d hope he’d realize that chemistry is important to his state’s economy, what with all the old people needing lots of prescription medicines. Oh, and also all the cartel drug labs based there.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Xolotl ( 675282 )
      Everytime I see someone make statements like Ron's I think we should take away all of the things they use every day which depend on physics. Like his phone for starters. He'd change his mind in about 15 minutes.

  • Sure, stop teaching physics. We certainly need more idiots on the web. And critical reasoning skills? Bah! Besides kids now days get all the physics they need to know from games like Fortnite.

  • Physics, computer programming and science, mathematics and chemistry at a pre college level should be mandatory for all students. those that can not do these things need to be taught a non academic skill such as fast food cooking so that they can survive.

  • I'd make several changes to HS curricula (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Ken_g6 ( 775014 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @01:30AM (#58807394) Homepage

    I'd merge Physics 1 with basic calculus. To do this in the time allowed I'd drop 90% of limits, and trigonometry. I wouldn't make trig a prerequisite for calculus; rather the reverse. You just need the differentiation formulas; not how they were derived. And the acceleration formula is an excellent example of integration.

    I'd merge Physics 2 with trigonometry and the calculus of trigonometry. To do this you can drop 90% of angle identities, not to mention table lookups. The calculus is simple enough for sin and cos, and only takes a secant for tangents. The physics is mainly oscillators, mechanical and otherwise.

    But I wouldn't mess with computer science in all these changes.

  • Dijkstra defined much of what is now modern computer science. His formal background was physics, not computer science.

    If you want problem solving people capable of solving many problems, teach physics. If you want drones that manually translate requirements into code, teach computer science.

    This is a stupid question though. Teach what the market will hire, and that's all. I thinks it's safe to say both physicists and computer science majors will find a career path. There's no reason for either-or.

  • If anybody needed any proof that politicians are uneducated morons, this is it.

  • Short answer: no.
    Long answer: ummm... no.

  • Answer: NO (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Todd Knarr ( 15451 )

    No, high schools should not drop any science subject for computer science. Computer science is a branch of mathematics, and unless schools want to figure out how to fit discrete math (a prerequisite for pretty much all computer science) into the curriculum it makes no sense to get into computer science.

    Software development, or coding, is a completely different subject from computer science, and it's what most of these schools are talking about when they say "computer science". Frankly it's a technical-schoo

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • No (Score:3)

    by CptJeanLuc ( 1889586 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @02:33AM (#58807514)

    You learn about technology just by being alive and having access to it. Physics not so much. School should teach you the important stuff you would not be learning without learning it in school.

    Teaching people only the stuff that most people might use in a job is really short sighted. Things like physics, arts or philosophy help you expand your horizons and live a richer, fuller life. Despite what the corporate overlords wants us to think, life is not all about work. Take joy in understanding why an oar appears bent when submerged in water, listening to a piece of music and knowing the theory behind its chord progression, or telling some mean person about Kant's imperative.

  • Physics is Problem Solving (Score:3)

    by physicsphairy ( 720718 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @02:33AM (#58807518)

    Physics is excellent preparation for programming. About 20% of physics majors go in to programming. Being able to think about how to resolve the outputs of a constrained system is more fundamental to coding than learning whatever language the intro coding course is teaching.

    It's also worth noting that major advances in computing are dependent on advances in physics. Writing down 'for loops' was possible with the invention of written language. But understanding the quantum behavior of semi-conductors is what's allowed them to be computed in a fraction of a fraction of a second in the modern age. If you stop recruiting students into physics, it is not going to play out well for computing in the long term.

  • teamwork (Score:2)

    by Tom ( 822 )

    The reason why the governeur can afford to forget all his physics classes is that someone else still remembers them. Because physics is simply the laws of the actual world. Engineering is based on physics as are simple things like plumbing, electricity and construction.

    You need to teach these things to everyone so we can figure out who among them is interested in it and has a good understanding of it and can pursue it as a career.

    Add basic computer science, but don't remove physics or math just because they

  • Idiots. Teach both, to those with the capacity to understand and the desire to make something of themselves.

  • Well, AP and IB might be, but they do not enhance one's chances of college acceptance. That and the requirements for CS at university are *drum roll* Calculus and Physics. So, this bill isn't going to be particularly useful, other than this tool of a governor getting some sort of "consideration" for their efforts.

  • Teach science and logic (Score:3)

    by ET3D ( 1169851 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @03:03AM (#58807570)

    There's already a troubling trend of people mistrusting science. The less one understands of the world, the more one is inclined to believe in things like flat Earth, or whatever. If we want to continue in that direction, then sure, drop physics.

    Computer Science isn't bad if you go into it from the math side, but I doubt schools would teach that. Learning to program has very little benefit beyond creating more potential programmers.

    • Learning to program has very little benefit beyond creating more potential programmers.

      With programming you are forced to break any problem down in to the smallest possible things. That's not taught in any other subject because it's not inescapable at school level. Programming is applied maths, logic and problem solving all rolled into one.

      The less one understands of the world, the more one is inclined to believe in things like flat Earth, or whatever.

      Quite, so why drop computing? Computers are everywhere a

  • We need to make kids employable, by teaching them about maths, languages, spelling, art, literature, history, science, physical education, sports, religion etc etc Adapting a curriculum to suit the jobs market is going to produce drones with no creativity, and definitely lacking the sort of broad knowledge that you will get from a paid education.
  • A lack of understanding basic physics is the source of many uploaded videos. If we deprive more children of understanding physics, my enjoyment can only increase. Bring on the idiocy!

    Maybe they should remove history instead; seems children are only fixating on certain parts anyways.

  • When I was in high school (45 years ago and in a different hemisphere, I took Applied Mathematics (which included computing and statistics) , instead of biology.

  • They had some "computer lab" classes which I took but I also already knew more than the teachers.
    I didn't turn out so great FTR.

  • Computer Science Instead of Physics (Score:3)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @04:10AM (#58807700) Journal
    !!! NO !!!
    We're already seeing the signs of people in general getting dumber and dumber, not understanding how to do things themselves, how even simple things work, or how to even make simple things, because schools are more interested in students learning things by rote so they can pass standardized tests so schools get their funding, and the Internet and smartphones eliminating the need to even remember things, and now they want to even take away learning to drive from people? Don't forget the lesson of WALL-E. That's where we seem to be heading. Just teaching kids to be code monkeys isn't making them smarter it's making them overall dumber. Keep teaching physics and chemistry and math, damnit! Also bring back Driver Ed/Driver Training to highschools!

    Think of it this way: without physicists and engineers and chemists how the hell are we going to have young people getting into those fields so we have new computers for compsci majors to work with?

  • Physics is needed because you need to have a solid foundation of how stuff works. Mathematics is how stuff works.

    And we need to start calling computer science mathematics again.

    What we need to stop doing is the rest of the bullshit, like art and literature. Leave it to parents, leave it to extracurricular activities.l

    • Mathematics is how stuff works.

      Mathematics is currently our best language for describing how stuff works, but before math was invented we had music and the universe doing its thing happily ignorant of mathematics. :)

  • You need physics to be able to calculate at what speed you're going to hit the pavement when you jump out of the window of the 17th floor.
    Real life, dude, or death in this specific case.

  • As this post says: https://news.slashdot.org/comm... [slashdot.org]
    Physics is fundamental.

    And what actually do you want to code, without knowing physics? There is hardly any "computer problem" that is not physics related. Even social media, which is probably from a physics point of few super simple, hassles with time zones, time, and locations.

    I think the only computer stuff that is not related to physics is calculating a payroll and a bill of ordered goods.

  • math and every other class that teaches people to think and solve problems. We can't have people coming out of school with the ability to think. They might start voting the wrong way.

    So many comments here like "they'll never use the quadratic formula after they leave school" by people who don't understand that learning physics isn't about learning math techniques so much as it is about understanding problems and different approaches to solving them. Applying the math to solve the problem isn't quite as i

  • Computer Science classes are currently nothing more than how much free stuff can the teacher get from Micro$oft or Goolag sponsorship, leaving students worse off than what they could have learned on their own (and now in debt) because what they think is currently "professional" will either be out-dated, no longer maintained, or too expensive to own by the time they graduate. That software as a service program (such as Adobe) and free unlimited cloud storage (such as 365) expired because you're no longer a s
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • We need more flat earthers, anti vaccers, conspiracy theorists and so on and so forth. This process of dumbing down people is taking too long to achieve. We need idiocracy fueled 1984 ASAP.

  • ...schools taught both physics AND computer science.

  • No (Score:3)

    by prefec2 ( 875483 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @08:36AM (#58808228)

    Short answer is: No. Longer answer: The hell no!

    Discussion: Schools in western countries are declining in quality (including private schools). You can estimate this on how university students are able to study, use knowledge and their general understanding of the world. It does not looks like they had physics or math at school or reading and writing beyond primary school levels. On that basis you could easily replace physics with computer science, but (a) they would also not know anything about computer science in the end and (b) in many cases these courses in CS dwindle down to Word courses. Therefore, it would be much more relevant to do the following:
    - Improve the education and training of teachers
    - Pay teachers real money
    - Fund schools (so that the roof does not come down, the classrooms are heated etc.)
    - Make smaller classes
    - Ensure that people of different backgrounds share classes
    - Engage students while studying
    - Help them develop critical thinking skills so that they know their stuff and do not develop strange ideas of how dangerous microwaves are, question the shape of the earth or dispute the moon landing
     

  • For years, math is studied in isolation, devoid of context. Years spent learning meaningless algebra, factoring polynomials, learning the unit circle and trig rules.

    Then one day, you arrive in physics class and suddenly all the math stuff you learned has a purpose. The reasons for things become clear as your sharpen you attention to detail. You expand you mind thinking about problems and solutions. You get a glimpse into what we know about the observable universe.

    So, in my opinion, if you aren't going t

  • YES! They should also teach underwater basket weaving instead of math. No need for English classes, as they don't seem to be doing much good; teach remedial texting instead. Forget history, it's boring as hell and what moron thinks history could apply to the future? Teach advanced television viewing instead. There's no end of difficult subjects we could eliminate!

  • This way it crosses the fields that both should be taught, but Abstraction Physics as a prerequisite http://abstractionphysics.net/ [abstractionphysics.net]

  • Why not a hybrid? (Score:3)

    by lamer01 ( 1097759 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @09:20AM (#58808390)
    A class that teaches basic physics using computer programming. That should make both subjects more fun. The truth is that the vast majority of kids will never use physics or calculus in their professional careers. Our rigid educational system wastes a lot of kids' times.

  • No way (Score:3)

    by OneHundredAndTen ( 1523865 ) on Sunday June 23, 2019 @09:46AM (#58808478)
    Computer science is a branch of advanced mathematics. You do not teach advanced mathematics in school - most students will not be mature enough to tackle it. What they are proposing is to teach code-monkeying - nothing to do with computer science. Ditching physics for the sake of code-monkeying would amount to churning out a generation of elementary physics ignoramuses. But, they would able to put together a basic, poorly designed website.
  • You can't think of anything else to replace other than physics?

  • How limited. (Score:3)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday June 23, 2019 @11:52AM (#58809086) Homepage Journal

    Teach them about programming, physics, and mathematics at the same time. They might as well learn about using programming and math to solve practical problems.

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